Dog in an apartment

maglez81 · 11-02-2015 1:35pm #1

Hi all,

I'm not sure if that's the right thread.

I'm going to buy an apartment where the rules says pet is not permitted. I have a dog, it's a therapy/services dog, trained and he has always lived in apartments. I have tried to know if the dog could be in my new home. As well we are going to buy a ground floor, so we aren't going to use the common area as lift, as stairs or carpets. There are a lot of apartments and houses where pets is allow in this area. Normally the rules are: pets must be supervised at all time and do not cause damage to common areas, with the exception that no pets are permitted if they cause annoyance or nuisance to fellow residents.

Also I don't have any reply from the Management Company when I have tried to know more information about the rules.

In the worst case, if I would ignore the rules, What's the Worst That Could Happen? Could they remove my dog? is that legal?

I really appreciate any help you can provide.

Thanks,
Miguel

PS: Sorry if I have duplicated the post. I posted the same in Animals & Pet Issues

seamus · 11-02-2015 1:36pm

maglez81 wrote: »

In the worst case, if I would ignore the rules, What's the Worst That Could Happen? Could they remove my dog? is that legal?

As posted on the other thread, they cannot forcibly remove your dog. However they can impose financial penalties on you for breaching the house rules.

In a very extreme case, they could attempt to get a court order requiring you to get rid of the dog. That would only be granted in very select circumstances though.

Mrs OBumble · 11-02-2015 2:26pm

I'm trying very hard to be polite here:

Why would you buy an apartment knowing that one of the things you want for your life (presumably it's non-negotiable for you) is not allowed in it?

Why not just make life easier for everyone, and buy a different apartment, given that "There are a lot of apartments and houses where pets is allow in this area"?

maglez81 · 11-02-2015 3:00pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I'm trying very hard to be polite here:

Why would you buy an apartment knowing that one of the things you want for your life (presumably it's non-negotiable for you) is not allowed in it?

Why not just make life easier for everyone, and buy a different apartment, given that "There are a lot of apartments and houses where pets is allow in this area"?

Because I didn't know at first moment this rule. There are a lot of apartments, but it's not easy to find an apartment with a good price, situation and comfortable.

Also, because I didn't think that my dog would be a problem in a build where there are 6 apartments and it's an area with a lot of dogs, I live currently at 1 km. from the new apartment, it's a build where the rules not permit if they cause annoyance or nuisance to fellow residents.

Arbiter of Good Taste · 11-02-2015 3:13pm

maglez81 wrote: »

Because I didn't know at first moment this rule. There are a lot of apartments, but it's not easy to find an apartment with a good price, situation and comfortable.

Also, because I didn't think that my dog would be a problem in a build where there are 6 apartments and it's an area with a lot of dogs, I live currently at 1 km. from the new apartment, it's a build where the rules not permit if they cause annoyance or nuisance to fellow residents.

To be honest, most apartment blocks do not permit pets, so I would always go on the basis that it would be a problem.

Saying that, some places do overlook this, provided the pet is not a nuisance, but I would not assume this to be the case, particularly if it is an animal that you will be relying on day to day.

I would definitely not ignore the rules, Try and get in contact with the management. Bear in mind, the rules are effectively enforced by the residents, so they may agree to allow an aberration for you. If you "sneak" the dog in, some resident may complain out of principle. I am assuming as it's is a service/therapy dog, that it is a medium/large dog, and not a little lap dog, so the chances of complaints could be higher - regardless of whether the dog is actually being a nuisance. Ironically, as it is a therapy dog, I presume it is properly trained and would cause a lot less nuisance than my little furry baby, but unfortunately, people may perceive differently.

maglez81 · 11-02-2015 3:33pm

I have tried to contact with the management or block management without successful. I could contact with the letting team, but they are not sure about the rules.

The provide me a arrangement company, but when I contacted them they told me they are not the Property Managers

MrMorooka · 11-02-2015 3:35pm

How do people manage to have dogs in other countries' cities where apartments(and not ****ey 3-bed semis) are the norm?

Arbiter of Good Taste · 11-02-2015 3:36pm

MrMorooka wrote: »

How do people manage to have dogs in other countries' cities where apartments(and not ****ey 3-bed semis) are the norm?

Not relevant. The OP is looking to buy an apartment in Ireland where the norm is not to have pets in apartments

coffeeaddict · 11-02-2015 3:38pm

Part of being a responsible dog owner is finding somewhere they are accepted,

You just cannot move in and hope for the best,

NewCorkLad · 11-02-2015 3:40pm

maglez81 wrote: »

I have tried to contact with the management or block management without successful. I could contact with the letting team, but they are not sure about the rules.

The provide me a arrangement company, but when I contacted them they told me they are not the Property Managers

Are you buying or renting

chickenlicken2 · 11-02-2015 3:45pm

There is probably a management company in the development. Go to cro.ie and put in the name of the company and you'll get the details. You would get details of the registered office from the company details. You can get names of directors, company secretary and possibly management agent from the submitted documents.
Write to them probably by registered post stating you are looking to purchase an apartment and explain the situation with the dog and ask for a written reply confirming if you would be able to live there with the dog.
It would be foolhardy to purchase first act later.

maglez81 · 11-02-2015 3:49pm

NewCorkLad wrote: »

Are you buying or renting

I'm buying.

The_Conductor · 11-02-2015 3:50pm

Dogs- are not allowed in apartments, period.
If you wish to have one live with you- e.g. if it is a therapy or a guide dog- get a letter from the Management Company- not the Management Agent- which stated unequivocally that your dog is allowed. Do not make any presumptions. Do not buy the property without an official letter from the Management Company- stating explicitly, that your dog is allowed.

Until such time as you have this letter- do not make an offer on the property- keep looking elsewhere.

For the record- I'm not sure what you have been told- but dogs are almost 100% across the board- barred from apartments in Ireland- if people have told you otherwise- they are talking through their hats.

NewCorkLad · 11-02-2015 3:51pm

Do you really want to buy an apartment and risk pissing off your neighbours straight away, who you will potentially be living beside for years.

maglez81 · 11-02-2015 3:58pm

I don't want to have any problem with my neighbors, I'm trying to resolve and get more information about the pets rules. However It's really difficult because I don't have any reply from the Management Company. I'm trying to cooperate and to be a good neighbor as you can see.

MrMorooka · 11-02-2015 3:58pm

Plenty of dogs in council apartments judging from the ****e around the likes of Erne St. One rule for them, another for those buying and renting in the open market.

surpy · 11-02-2015 3:58pm

If you require a dog due to disability you can't be discriminated against.
I would speak with a relevant support organisation for advice.

If it's not a disability then it's not discrimination to disallow the dog

NewCorkLad · 11-02-2015 4:02pm

No you are trying to find out if they can take your dog from you if you move in with the dog no matter the rules.

You have shown no consideration for you potential neighbours in this.

11-02-2015 4:05pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Dogs- are not allowed in apartments, period.
If you wish to have one live with you- e.g. if it is a therapy or a guide dog- get a letter from the Management Company- not the Management Agent- which stated unequivocally that your dog is allowed. Do not make any presumptions. Do not buy the property without an official letter from the Management Company- stating explicitly, that your dog is allowed.

Until such time as you have this letter- do not make an offer on the property- keep looking elsewhere.

For the record- I'm not sure what you have been told- but dogs are almost 100% across the board- barred from apartments in Ireland- if people have told you otherwise- they are talking through their hats.

The complex I own an apartment in does not have a rule about pets.

Just saying! They might not be the norm, but the do exist.

maglez81 · 11-02-2015 4:06pm

NewCorkLad wrote: »

No you are trying to find out if they can take your dog from you if you move in with the dog no matter the rules.

You have shown no consideration for you potential neighbours in this.

If my dog would be a dangerous dog or problematic dog that every moment is barking, I would not move to an apartment where the pets are not allow, but it's not my case. My dog is a quite dog where my current neighbors are really happy with him.

NewCorkLad · 11-02-2015 4:11pm

Yes but there are 5 other apartments of people living there, who so far are happy with the no pet rule or they wouldnt have the rule. It doesnt matter how good your dog is.

chickenlicken2 · 11-02-2015 4:11pm

maglez81 wrote: »

However It's really difficult because I don't have any reply from the Management Company. I'm trying to cooperate and to be a good neighbor as you can see.

What steps have you taken to contact the management company?

maglez81 · 11-02-2015 4:24pm

chickenlicken2 wrote: »

What steps have you taken to contact the management company?

As I could see on canvas for the rules house. The company should be: Irish Estates (Management) Ltd email or Sherry FitzGerald Lettings.

I contacted them and they told me the management agents are: Strathmore Ivernia Ltd.

When I contacted Strathmore Ivernia Ltd. they told me that they are not the Property Managers. So I contacted Sherry FitzGeral again. They give me a phone number from the Block Managment 01-2461111, however they told me the same, they aren't and the given me a new phone number: 018715400. This number is from Irish Estates (Management).

My solicitor is trying to have more information as well... I'm waiting from 2 weeks ago any update.

fret_wimp2 · 11-02-2015 4:31pm

maglez81 wrote: »

If my dog would be a dangerous dog or problematic dog that every moment is barking, I would not move to an apartment where the pets are not allow, but it's not my case. My dog is a quite dog where my current neighbors are really happy with him.

Thats irrelevant. ive been to plenty of houses where there's a very angry, snarling hair standing on his cockles bloodshoot eyed little monster of a dog who the owners say "don't mind him, hes a complete pet!"

(FYI - im not against dogs, Ive had one before & Il have one again. im just looking at this from a more objective POV).

If you NEED this dog for health reasons, the likelyhood is you will get your way if you press the issue enough, but you will also raise bad blood between you, your neighbours and the management company.

You NEED to talk to the management company, even if that means calling to their office in person, and consult with a solicitor to find out what your rights are, in case the management company push back on you.

NewCorkLad · 11-02-2015 4:37pm

I would just like to point out I have 3 dogs so I am definitly not against dogs, but I would never try to move somewhere, where there was a rule saying no pets as it could only lead to trouble.

daUbiq · 11-02-2015 4:38pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Dogs- are not allowed in apartments, period.
If you wish to have one live with you- e.g. if it is a therapy or a guide dog- get a letter from the Management Company- not the Management Agent- which stated unequivocally that your dog is allowed. Do not make any presumptions. Do not buy the property without an official letter from the Management Company- stating explicitly, that your dog is allowed.

Until such time as you have this letter- do not make an offer on the property- keep looking elsewhere.

For the record- I'm not sure what you have been told- but dogs are almost 100% across the board- barred from apartments in Ireland- if people have told you otherwise- they are talking through their hats.

I've seen apartment blocks in Dublin with dogs living in them. I lived there.

Arbiter of Good Taste · 11-02-2015 4:39pm

maglez81 wrote: »

If my dog would be a dangerous dog or problematic dog that every moment is barking, I would not move to an apartment where the pets are not allow, but it's not my case. My dog is a quite dog where my current neighbors are really happy with him.

Irrelevant. Rules are rules. You will find that the block will also have rules around, say, hanging clothes out the window. Is it ok to flaunt those rules for designer clothes? No.

In fact, with a smaller block, I suspect it will likely be mostly owner occupiers who will be more likely to enforce the agreed rules.

Get permission before moving your dog in.

fret_wimp2 · 11-02-2015 4:39pm

daUbiq wrote: »

I've seen apartment blocks in Dublin with dogs living in them. I lived there.

There's a cat & a dog in two seperate apartments in my building. The building rules still clearly state that no animals are allowed.

I wouldnt report it as neither have been the slightest bit of bother but it just takes one resident to lodge a complaint

MrWalsh · 11-02-2015 4:40pm

I live in an apartment block and lots of people have dogs. And cats.

As far as I can tell the management company of which I am a member as an owner have no real teeth. They won't do anything about serious problems because court dates cost money. So they're highly unlikely to get excited about a pet.

chickenlicken2 · 11-02-2015 4:42pm

maglez81 wrote: »

As I could see on canvas for the rules house. The company should be: Irish Estates (Management) Ltd email or Sherry FitzGerald Lettings.

I contacted them and they told me the management agents are: Strathmore Ivernia Ltd.

When I contacted Strathmore Ivernia Ltd. they told me that they are not the Property Managers. So I contacted Sherry FitzGeral again. They give me a phone number from the Block Managment 01-2461111, however they told me the same, they aren't and the given me a new phone number: 018715400. This number is from Irish Estates (Management).

My solicitor is trying to have more information as well... I'm waiting from 2 weeks ago any update.

Seriously you need to contact the management company. Not the letting agent. Not the auctioneer. Not the property management company.

Put the name of the estate into company search on the cro site. Quite often the management company will hold the name of the complex. Say PinkRose housing estate will be called Pinkrose management company Ltd.

Alternatively the solicitor should be able to confirm the name as they will be party to the title deeds.

Once you have the company name you have the registered address straight away on the cro site. You can get the directors and secretary details from the filed documents accounts or B10.

Send a registered letter to the directors and the secretary of the management company clearly and concisely setting out your position and ask them to confirm if the dog will be allowed.

fret_wimp2 · 11-02-2015 4:46pm

MrWalsh wrote: »

I live in an apartment block and lots of people have dogs. And cats.

As far as I can tell the management company of which I am a member as an owner have no real teeth. They won't do anything about serious problems because court dates cost money. So they're highly unlikely to get excited about a pet.

That sounds like an assumption. The OP needs to get a hard answer from the management company,

Arbiter of Good Taste · 11-02-2015 4:53pm

MrWalsh wrote: »

I live in an apartment block and lots of people have dogs. And cats.

As far as I can tell the management company of which I am a member as an owner have no real teeth. They won't do anything about serious problems because court dates cost money. So they're highly unlikely to get excited about a pet.

Well, in my old apartment block, we did have teeth. People who asked to move pets in were refused.

The "management" is the owners, and they will enforce the rules if pushed.

MrWalsh · 11-02-2015 5:00pm

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Well, in my old apartment block, we did have teeth. People who asked to move pets in were refused.

The "management" is the owners, and they will enforce the rules if pushed.

No one asks in mine. I know the management are the owners, I am one. I don't see any rule enforcing going on, even for serious matters.

I'm simply relaying my own experience.

Paulw · 11-02-2015 5:11pm

MrWalsh wrote: »

No one asks in mine. I know the management are the owners, I am one. I don't see any rule enforcing going on, even for serious matters.

Then you are also part of the problem for not insisting that the rules are enforced.

In our development, we enforce the rules. We have had a number of dogs removed for being a problem.

But, in this situation, it would really depend.

The OP needs to speak to the management company. That's usually called "XYZ Development Management Company Ltd" and can be found through the CRO. You can also find their contact details there. I am very surprised and concerned that your solicitor can't find the management company, since the solicitor would need a number of documents from them to complete the purchase of the unit.

Keep chasing.

MrWalsh · 11-02-2015 5:15pm

Paulw wrote: »

Then you are also part of the problem for not insisting that the rules are enforced.

In our development, we enforce the rules. We have had a number of dogs removed for being a problem.

But, in this situation, it would really depend.

The OP needs to speak to the management company. That's usually called "XYZ Development Management Company Ltd" and can be found through the CRO. You can also find their contact details there. I am very surprised and concerned that your solicitor can't find the management company, since the solicitor would need a number of documents from them to complete the purchase of the unit.

Keep chasing.

Could you detail for me here how you have enforced the rules and had dogs removed please?

11-02-2015 5:39pm

I don't see how anyone can dictate what you keep inside your own apartment which you own. If renting then the LL can make rules but if you truly own it I cant see how anyone can even prentend to be able to enforce a rule like no pets.

Btw I would be a person against keeping pets in apartment but still feel if you own it you should be able to give the middle finger to rules like "no pets".

The_Morrigan · 11-02-2015 5:54pm

Jeremias Freezing Gear wrote: »

I don't see how anyone can dictate what you keep inside your own apartment which you own. If renting then the LL can make rules but if you truly own it I cant see how anyone can even prentend to be able to enforce a rule like no pets.

Btw I would be a person against keeping pets in apartment but still feel if you own it you should be able to give the middle finger to rules like "no pets".

You don't truly own an apartment, you lease it from the Man Co who set the rules.

MrWalsh · 11-02-2015 5:56pm

The_Morrigan wrote: »

You don't truly own an apartment, you lease it from the Man Co who set the rules.

While this is true, no one from said management company can legally enter your property to inspect that you are in keeping with the rules.

maglez81 · 11-02-2015 6:07pm

Paulw wrote: »

Then you are also part of the problem for not insisting that the rules are enforced.

In our development, we enforce the rules. We have had a number of dogs removed for being a problem.

But, in this situation, it would really depend.

The OP needs to speak to the management company. That's usually called "XYZ Development Management Company Ltd" and can be found through the CRO. You can also find their contact details there. I am very surprised and concerned that your solicitor can't find the management company, since the solicitor would need a number of documents from them to complete the purchase of the unit.

Keep chasing.

How did you remove dogs?

The_Morrigan · 11-02-2015 6:12pm

MrWalsh wrote: »

While this is true, no one from said management company can legally enter your property to inspect that you are in keeping with the rules.

Yes they can;

With your permission and in the case of stopping an emergency like fire or flood or a gas leak spreading to other Apts for example and with an injunction from the courts.

Kinda the same as a landlord really.

That is neither here nor there though - no one should be entering into an agreement with the intention to breach it from the get go.

Paulw · 11-02-2015 6:13pm

maglez81 wrote: »

How did you remove dogs?

The dog owners were first sent letters from the management agent. Then solicitors letters, informing them that they were in breach of their lease contract and that if they continued we would take the matter to court. We never had to go as far as getting a court date, but we were prepared to.

It really depends how determined you are to enforce clauses in your contract. We have no fear of taking cases all the way, and so far we have only had to take two cases to court (for non-payment of management fees). Our development is fairly well run and only minor issues to deal with usually.

MrWalsh · 11-02-2015 6:18pm

Paulw wrote: »

The dog owners were first sent letters from the management agent. Then solicitors letters, informing them that they were in breach of their lease contract and that if they continued we would take the matter to court. We never had to go as far as getting a court date, but we were prepared to.

It really depends how determined you are to enforce clauses in your contract. We have no fear of taking cases all the way, and so far we have only had to take two cases to court (for non-payment of management fees). Our development is fairly well run and only minor issues to deal with usually.

Were these owners or renters? It's a pity none went to court, I'd be very interested to know how a court would have dealt with it.

maglez81 · 11-02-2015 6:19pm

Paulw wrote: »

The dog owners were first sent letters from the management agent. Then solicitors letters, informing them that they were in breach of their lease contract and that if they continued we would take the matter to court. We never had to go as far as getting a court date, but we were prepared to.

It really depends how determined you are to enforce clauses in your contract. We have no fear of taking cases all the way, and so far we have only had to take two cases to court (for non-payment of management fees). Our development is fairly well run and only minor issues to deal with usually.

What do you mean lease contract? Is rental rental agreement? I'm buying

I have found a company mangment from cro.ie, but there isn't any email or phone number

The_Morrigan · 11-02-2015 6:21pm

maglez81 wrote: »

What do you mean lease contract? Is rental rental agreement? I'm buying

I have found a company mangment from cro.ie, but there isn't any email or phone number

You don't buy the freehold when you buy an apartment. You buy a long lease from the management company...ie you are technically renting from them.

chickenlicken2 · 11-02-2015 6:26pm

maglez81 wrote: »

I have found a company mangment from cro.ie, but there isn't any email or phone number

There won't be email or phone number. It's a management company set up to look after the common areas. It's not a business running an office.

Buy the last set of financial statements or B10.

Send a registered letter to the directors listed on these documents.

athtrasna · 11-02-2015 6:44pm

OP there are two huge red flags for me in your posts. One being that you don't understand what buying an apartment entails and the second being that the lease you sign will commit you to complying with development rules and the rules in this particular development prohibit dogs. This is a legal document, one that you would immediately breach.

The bottom line to me seems to be that this is not the development for you. The directors making an exception to the rules is a recipe for disaster and would open the floodgates with every rule being up for exceptions.

selous · 11-02-2015 7:05pm

Im in an estate that is all own door apartments (duplexes) 50% are vacant and 30% are rented the rest are owner occupied, and there's loads of dogs and cats around, one guy (owner) in particular just opens the door out goes the dog does his business anywhere on the green, goes everywhere on it's own, most of the day, the guy even goes out in the car and leaves the dog loose, management agent has been informed, but, to no avail, yet his kids go out playing on the same green his dog sh!ts on, go figure,

Paulw · 11-02-2015 7:18pm

maglez81 wrote: »

What do you mean lease contract? Is rental rental agreement? I'm buying

I have found a company mangment from cro.ie, but there isn't any email or phone number

A Lease Contract is part of your purchase documents. You are "buying" a lease, usually 999 years, or similar. Technically it's a very long term rental agreement.

Paulw · 11-02-2015 7:20pm

MrWalsh wrote: »

Were these owners or renters?

All correspondance would go to the unit owner, as they are in breach of the contract. If they are landlords, then it would be up to them to deal with their tenant and the actions of their tenant.

campingcarist · 11-02-2015 7:20pm

selous wrote: »

Im in an estate that is all own door apartments (duplexes) 50% are vacant and 30% are rented the rest are owner occupied, and there's loads of dogs and cats around, one guy (owner) in particular just opens the door out goes the dog does his business anywhere on the green, goes everywhere on it's own, most of the day, the guy even goes out in the car and leaves the dog loose, management agent has been informed, but, to no avail, yet his kids go out playing on the same green his dog sh!ts on, go figure,

I dare say that if there is a no pets type of clause in the owner's agreement with the management company then properties in the estate are devalued.

On my estate, houses and blocks of apartments, dogs are not allowed in apartments but are in the houses. However, all dogs when outside of their property must be on a leash. This rule is strictly enforced by our managing agents who visit the estate on a daily basis and also review every morning all CCTV.

If any dogs are found "roaming" around the estate, it only needs a phone call to the local council's "dog catcher".

Currently there are two tenants who have been warned that they must get rid of their dogs or be evicted.

The_Morrigan · 11-02-2015 7:30pm

MrWalsh wrote: »

So were they owners or renters who had the dogs in the apartments?

MrWalsh, take it to pm please you're derailing the thread.
Thanks.

Dog in an apartment

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