Changes to operation of Random Thread

CabanSail

Starting from the next Random Photo thread (L) there will be a few changes.

This series of Mega Threads has now reached it's 50th (L) incarnation. With over 1000 (M) posts per thread, and most of those being images, it's a testament to the creativity of many here.

The success of these threads has had a few minor negatives, which we are now trying to address. There used to be a lot of threads requesting C&C (Comment and Critique) in the past, but this has slowly decreased. Comments in the Random Thread tend to clutter it up, and so have been discouraged.

Following is the new rule which will be in the OP from the next thread.

* Images posted will be assumed to be Not for Comment. If you would like Comments or Critique on your images please add “C&C Welcome”. To make a comment please quote the photo in a Separate Thread with the Subject "C&C on Photo (author, date posted, title)" and then send a PM, with a thread link, to the author to advise you have started a thread.
PLEASE CHECK IF A THREAD EXISTS BEFORE STARTING A NEW ONE

Hopefully this will keep the gallery feel of the Random Thread but also open up more discussion about images. If an image is not marked for discussion then please respect that. If you think it may be an oversight by the author then a polite PM to request they edit their post and add permission is acceptable, but please respect their decision if they decline.

The instructions for posting images from Flickr & Pix.ie have also been updated.

keps

The bolded 'Not for Comment ' in the title of the Random Thread seems to me like the nanny state gone mad.

Can I say - 'Amazing Photo'?

'Where was that taken'?

keps

As far as I am aware and have observed- the practice to date for people looking for C&C was to post a request on the general Photography site that others could then respond to?

I cannot see the logic of now allowing 'C&C Welcome' in the Random Thread - and then putting the onus of starting a new thread on the person who is willing to make a comment/critique.
That person then also has to send a PM to the person who has put 'C&C welcome'?

It just doesn't make sense to me.

Putting 'C&C Welcome' on a post in the Random thread seems to be a contradiction of sorts.

CabanSail

You can;

1/ Send comment like that to the poster by PM

2/ If the image is tagged for comment, you can start a thread to discuss the location or any other aspect. If it's not tagged you can request the OP to edit and change the status at their discretion.

keps

So if a comment like 'Amazing photo' appears on Random from here on in - it is the Mods policy to delete it?


What or who is the OP?

CabanSail

OP = Original Poster.

The reason we are trying this is for a few reasons. The Random Photo Thread series is by far the most popular thread on this forum and right up there site wide. Way back when, the idea was to be a showcase when most images were being posted were for discussion. There has always been the rule of "Minimal Discussion" in the thread. Recently that has needed a bit of tidying up and posts being deleted. The other thing that has been noticed is that there are now very few images being posted for discussion, which is a shame.

What we are trying to achieve is to preserve the Random Thread as being a showcase of images while opening things up for broader discussion. The mechanism we have come up with is, hopefully, a way to get the best of both. This is not change just for the sake of it. What we want is to get back some more interaction in an open and sharing atmosphere. There are many images that appear in the Random Threads where I would like to discuss more in depth the methods, motivations and stories behind an image. It does not happen now as I respect that images posted there are not for discussion like that. This may be the modification which will facilitate that to occur while still respecting that some may not welcome that sort of scrutiny.

We ask you give it a go with the new rules and see how it goes. If there are suggestions how it could be improved we would like to hear them.

keps

Thanks for that:)

Calina

I see the point in making it clear that there should be no discussion in the Random thread and historically, there wasn't.

But if someone is going to make C&C welcome on a photo, they should start the C&C thread themselves in my view.

keps

One of the difficulties of the 'revised' system, it seems to me, is that the photo won't be visible on the 'new' thread started by the 'commentator' - unless it is possible to 'Quote' a photo from a different thread (I'm not sure if this can be done?)

CabanSail

Just started one as here

keps

CabanSail wrote: »

Just started one as here

Great -I wasn't aware that was possible:o

As you say it is worth a try to get photo discussions going

CabanSail

Just hit reply in the main thread then copy the text and post in a new thread.

OldGoat

Calina wrote: »

I see the point in making it clear that there should be no discussion in the Random thread and historically, there wasn't.

But if someone is going to make C&C welcome on a photo, they should start the C&C thread themselves in my view.

This is one of the reasons for trying something new. C&C posts have tailed off to a point where they are almost non-existent. Re-posting photos into the main forum from the Random thread has a twofold gain for us.

1:It stimulates conversations - not just critiques but discussions. Comments don't have to be critiques.

2: It returns the Random thread to being a Gallery. The 'Thank' button is there for showing your appreciation of a photograph and it doubles as the basis for the POTW. Now users will need to quote the image into a new thread then comment "Lovely shot"...and hopefully then expand on that by saying why they like it, ask where it was taken, query processing methods, take the piss, suggest alternative crops yadda yadda yadda.

There are numerous posts in the Random thread that I've been itching to comment on but that facility has not been there. Now, if someone adds C&C welcome I know I can freely repost the image into the main and ask my questions/pass my comments/heap my praises.

I fully expect that the majority of C&C threads will be along the lines of
"Lovely shot, was that in taken in Howthville town?"
"No".
/End Thread.
However, every now and then a thread will emerge that will spark robust, heated debate and most importantly teaches us all something about photography.

I'm wondering if we should have made this "Opt Out" rather than "Opt In" for C&C.

magicbastarder

in the absence of being able to provide feedback, there should also be a 'thumbs down' button in the thread so!

keps

I think that the basis of a genuine C&C is that it comes from someone with known credentials.

Asking for C&C online can leave you open to comments from anyone at all- even those who have never taken a decent photo in their lives.

And also those whose toes you may have inadvertently( or otherwise) stepped on.

OldGoat

keps wrote: »

I think that the basis of a genuine C&C is that it comes from someone with known credentials.

Asking for C&C online can leave you open to comments from anyone at all- even those who have never taken a decent photo in their lives.

And also those whose toes you may have inadvertently( or otherwise) stepped on.

C&C is Comments & Critique. No expertise is required to pass a comment. If I want to tell someone that they posted a lovely shot then now I can without littering Random thread with noise.

Nor is the learning experience only available from those with known credentials. No-one needs credentials to point out a tilted horizon. I would also suggest that someone making a poorly judged critique will soon hear about it from the rest of the peer group. This is the basis of discussions.

As for spats between posters who have stepped on toes, I like to think that most of us are adults in here. If spats arise then can be dealt with by reporting to the mods.

The "C&C welcome" is not requesting C&C, it's saying that comment is acceptable to the photographer. Anyone requiring real critique can still post in the main as before.

magicbastarder

keps wrote: »

even those who have never taken a decent photo in their lives.

i've never made a sofa in my life, but i know what i like and feel happy to comment on what is or is not a good sofa.

likewise, i don't see any reason that a non-photographer should not have a valid opinion on a photo. however, i don't think that's an issue anyway as the people who tend to populate the photography forum are by definition those interested in photography.

keps

Signal to noise ratio.
Now there's one for ya.

Tiriel

keps wrote: »

Signal to noise ratio.
Now there's one for ya.

We're open to other suggestions too - if you have any ideas on how to keep the random photo thread free of conversation yet encourage people to post their comments and create critique type posts? Or are you simply against the whole idea?

keps

There is one person specifically looking for C&C on the main forum at present. The post has been there for 36 hours has about 120 views and nobody has responded.

The idea that in response to 'C&C welcome' in a post in the Random thread that someone would then start a brand new thread and then send a PM to the person who requested c&C telling them about the new thread- seems daft to me.

Also the fact that a poster had an 8 word query on a pic of mine (to which I responded immediately with another photo) deleted by the Mods to improve the 'signal to noise ratio' - seems to me to be a bit heavy-handed.

DaireQuinlan

keps wrote: »

There is one person specifically looking for C&C on the main thread at present. The post has been there for 36 hours has about 120 views and nobody has responded.

If someone WANTS C&C then they should start a new thread. With 'C&C welcome' all they're saying is that they're open to another person opening that thread if that other person wants to start a discussion on the image.

keps wrote:

The idea that in response to 'C&C welcome' in a post in the Random thread that someone would then start a brand new thread and then sent a PM to the person who requested c&C telling them about the new thread- seems daft to me.

The idea that if someone wanted C&C on an image or set of images that they'd just stick a 'C&C welcome' on the post and sit around hitting F5 in the vain hope that someone might bite seems daft to me. That's not the intention of the 'C&C welcome'.

keps

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

If someone WANTS C&C then they should start a new thread.

that's the point - that 'new' thread has been there for 36 hours

Tiriel

keps wrote: »

that's the point - that 'new' thread has been there for 36 hours

It's probably got a lot to do with the fact another thread was opened within a few minutes by the same poster with a specific question on one of the photos in the C&C thread. A great post too

DaireQuinlan

keps wrote: »

that's the point - that 'new' thread has been there for 36 hours

Oh right, sorry I thought by 'new thread' you were talking about the new random photo thread, you actually mean the main forum. Honestly there's not much you can do to persuade people to provide C&C if they don't want to. Just putting up a thread isn't going to guarantee any response.

OldGoat

keps wrote: »

Also the fact that a poster had an 8 word query on a pic of mine (to which I responded immediately with another photo) deleted by the Mods to improve the 'signal to noise ratio' - seems to me to be a bit heavy-handed.

Heavy handed? The 8 worded post (not that word-count makes any difference) was removed and an explanation was posted. No one was infracted, no one was hit with a ban hammer.

We fully expect there to be teething problems with the setup but we believe that in the long run it will be an improvement for the forum.

If my use of the phrase signal to noise as a metaphor irked you I can rephrase it if that helps.

keps

I just find the whole thing rather odd!

Linking the lack of C&C on the forum in general to the Random Thread and then putting a zero tolerance level on even one word of comment being made on that thread is not, in my opinion, the way to go.

But I know when I'm outgunned, and by heavy artillary too- so I will say no more on the matter

CabanSail

What we are trying to do is get some more discussion going. This change may not be perfect, but we think it's heading in the right direction.

What we would appreciate is suggestions to improve things and make positive changes.

Cork Boy

How's about trying a new sub forum for education which would include things like links to resources but also a place for C&C. N00bs might feel intimidated in the main forum where professionals and extrememely talented amateurs post.

DaireQuinlan

Cork Boy wrote: »

How's about trying a new sub forum for education which would include things like links to resources but also a place for C&C. N00bs might feel intimidated in the main forum where professionals and extrememely talented amateurs post.

I would say that would be detrimental. Traffic volumes to the photography forum have fallen precipitously over the last 5 years or so. More subfora would just serve to fragment it further I think.

Whammy!

I do feel that the removal of noise from the Random thread is a step in the right direction. It makes it solely about the photos. If someone wants to show their appreciation for a photo then they use the Thank button. Questions about locations etc I personally feel are better left to PMs.

However with that being said, I don't think it will create more activity in the rest of the forum. It would be safe to assume that most of the users that post the noise have no intention of developing their comments into anything more than chit chat.

But I do believe that pushing C&C is a good idea. Let us remember though, that for a lot of people asking for C&C can be a little daunting, especially for a noob.
Perhaps an ongoing sticky C&C thread might be beneficial?

A user who is slightly apprehensive of asking for C&C would be more inclined to post in an ongoing thread, rather that create a new thread and shine a spotlight upon themselves. Being able to see peoples replies and C&C would also help draw other people in, either to post photos or to offer C&C.

Having all C&C as a sticky would keep the main section more streamlined and less empty looking (seeing a C&C thread with no replies doesn't look very good).

Another idea is to create a "Introduce yourself" thread. Leave it open to anyone, new or old users. But ideally no photos. It would help new users to reach the 50 post mark along with moving some of the chit chat from the random thread into a thread that would actually thrive off it.
Creating a friendly atmosphere for new members should hopefully encourage more people to post.

keps

Apart from the use of the word 'noise' to indicate a repsonse to a post - I agree with Whammy.

keps

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

Traffic volumes to the photography forum have fallen precipitously over the last 5 years or so. More subfora would just serve to fragment it further I think.

What are the percentage drops do you know?

keps

Whammy! wrote: »

It would be safe to assume that most of the users that post the noise have no intention of developing their comments into anything more than chit chat.

So you regarded the congratulations and good wishes you got on the Random Thread on the birth of your baby as no more than mere noise?

dinneenp

I've nothing against this but don't like the Idea of opening a new thread just to say 'nice photo' or some small comment.
How about having 1 continuous thread for people to comment and ask small questions.
But of you want C&C then open your own separate thread.

Whammy!

keps wrote: »

So you regarded the congratulations and good wishes you got on the Random Thread on the birth of your baby as no more than mere noise?

I find your post a good example of 'noise', and to be honest a little creepy.
Keps, you're not contributing anything, nor are you suggesting ways to improve things.

keps

Whammy! wrote: »

I find your post a good example of 'noise', and to be honest a little creepy.
Keps, you're not contributing anything, nor are you suggesting ways to improve things.

As I said, I agree with most of what you said in your post above.


I just find the use of the word 'noise' to describe a post which makes a brief comment or asks a simple question to be unfair.

keps

And the position is that we were presented with a 'Fait Accompli'.

There was no consultation with forum users!


The only request for suggestions came after 2 days of me querying the wisdom of the new set-up.

keps

Anyway - I seem to have made enough enemies here to last a lifetime- so farewell.

DaireQuinlan

keps wrote: »

What are the percentage drops do you know?

Don't have them handy, I'm subsisting on my phone for the last few days, but I've posted them before into the random and off-topic thread

magicbastarder

OldGoat wrote: »

I fully expect that the majority of C&C threads will be along the lines of
"Lovely shot, was that in taken in Howthville town?"
"No".
/End Thread.
However, every now and then a thread will emerge that will spark robust, heated debate and most importantly teaches us all something about photography.

my natural reaction to a shot i like is a thumbs up (no C&C required), but the ones i'd like to get my teeth into (after they've set my teeth on edge) are ones i don't like - and i'd naturally avoid singling a shot like this out to tear into it. and i suspect this is the issue most photos would have in attracting such threads. so that's the main speed bump being faced here - not sure how you'd force the photo over that hill into a thread without it *looking* forced...

magicbastarder

though i do like the 'edit my photo' thread; probably because i hate processing so it's a case of 'i love work, it fascinates me, i could watch it for hours'.

DaireQuinlan

keps wrote: »

What are the percentage drops do you know?

Here's the spreadsheet and graph from march (if it still works)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=89342192&postcount=1104

magicbastarder

keps wrote: »

Anyway - I seem to have made enough enemies here to last a lifetime- so farewell.

i hope this doesn't mean you're leaving the photography forum?

CabanSail

I sent a PM to keps.

He said he's walking away from the keyboard for a while and hoping to pick up the camera a bit more.

pixbyjohn

From 2009

keps wrote: »

Just interesting to note - that the out of focus flowers and the glasses in front of the bread-bin have got between them 5 votes- while my attempts between them have a eurovision type 'nul points'.

Obviously my photographic and creative talents are so short of what is required on this elite forum that there is little point in hanging around.

I will go somewhere where the standards are not so exacting(and the fellow members are a bit fairer).
keps

keps will be back

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

keps wrote: »

Anyway - I seem to have made enough enemies here to last a lifetime- so farewell.

Don't be silly Keps, no ememies made here at all. You are just expressing your opinion

Give us more birdies

keps

pixbyjohn wrote: »

From 2009



keps will be back

I am just amazed by the fact that a fellow poster has had the time and inclination to go back SIX years to track down a post of mine to use against me-


And that a mod would then 'thank' it


Just to let you know pixbyjohn - keps will not be back.

CabanSail

keps wrote: »

I am just amazed by the fact that a fellow poster has had the time and inclination to go back SIX years to track down a post of mine to use against me-


And that a mod would then 'thank' it


Just to let you know pixbyjohn - keps will not be back.

I did not read that as being used against you. Quite the opposite actually. I saw it that you had left here before and returned and we hope you will come back again.

keps

Cheers Cabansail - obviously paranoia is one of my strong suits!

secman

keps wrote: »

Cheers Cabansail - obviously paranoia is one of my strong suits!

CHILLAX keps , I'm sure , that most folks around here like me enjoy your bird shots and just maybe they don't get as much appreciated as they should because so many of them are so well shot. Damn hard to get too, I know only so well. Keep them coming Keps

keps

secman wrote: »

CHILLAX keps , I'm sure , that most folks around here like me enjoy your bird shots and just maybe they don't get as much appreciated as they should because so many of them are so well shot. Damn hard to get too, I know only so well. Keep them coming Keps

Cheers - bird photo posted;)