Front-end dev - am I underpaid?

Kamyl

Hi folks,

Short summary,

- I moved to Ireland more than 3 yrs ago, with 3 yrs experience as Front-end dev (mainly XHTML, CSS, Jquery)
- I have 6 years' experience now
- I have a very good knowledge of Javascript(native), typescript and lots of libraries and frameworks.
- I recently (less than 6 months ago) started to use nodejs, AngularJs and reactJs
- I'm fluent in english - but as you probably see - I'm not as good as native speakers. Anyway it's good enough to attend technical meetups etc.


What I do
- 75% - work with JSON API and AJAX (ie REST) in javacript
- 25% bug fixes and updates to legacy code

Technology:
- 90% Javascript/TypeScript
- 10% C# (asp.net mvc)

Some projects:
- mobile presentation layer of existing system
- integration with third parties (ie google maps, CRM's, helpdesks)
- chrome extensions
- validation framework (js)
- nodejs monitoring bot
- few internal angularjs apps (with bootstrap)


(of course there's a lot more, but I dont want to write a novel)


My problem:

My salary is 25k only.

Why is this a problem?
- I get lots of job offers with 35k-60k salaries
- I don't think I'm js guru, but I'm neither junior front-end dev anymore.
- I can't even find a job offers with a salary lower than 30k

My question:
Is this just my arrogance or I'm a way underpaid?

Thanks

28064212

Kamyl wrote: »

- I get lots of job offers with 35k-60k salaries

Why haven't you left yet?

Kamyl

28064212 wrote: »

Why haven't you left yet?

Thanks for reply

1) I think that there's still a lot to learn, and I keep saying "it's not the time yet". But maybe it its?
2) I enjoy working with my team. They're open for all my ideas (ie. introducing stuff like MVC client side, nodejs, flux architecture). We do lots of exciting stuff here and we have much more planned.

I'd preffer to stay with them but... you know... asking for a 50% raise (to match market salaries) sounds huge... but on the other hand working for 25k makes me feel like a student.

This is why I started this thread - I'd like to learn others opinion.

Greyian

Kamyl wrote: »

Thanks for reply

1) I think that there's still a lot to learn, and I keep saying "it's not the time yet". But maybe it its?
2) I enjoy working with my team. They're open for all my ideas (ie. introducing stuff like MVC client side, nodejs, flux architecture). We do lots of exciting stuff here and we have much more planned.

I'd preffer to stay with them but... you know... asking for a 50% raise (to match market salaries) sounds huge... but on the other hand working for 25k makes me feel like a student.

This is why I started this thread - I'd like to learn others opinion.

To be honest, based on your experience, even a 50% raise would still represent you being underpaid. €25,000/year, with your experience, is frankly ridiculous.

28064212

Other companies may be willing to pay you 60k. This one may not. It doesn't matter what you're "worth", the only thing that matters is what the company is willing to pay you.

Ask them to match what you think you could get elsewhere, but you have to be willing and able to walk away if they say "no raise". Otherwise they have all the cards

Kamyl

28064212 wrote: »

Other companies may be willing to pay you 60k. This one may not. It doesn't matter what you're "worth", the only thing that matters is what the company is willing to pay you.

I'm aware of that. I don't consider my job to be worth 60k to be honest. I'd be more than happy with 40k.
Interesting fact: our customer support guys earn much more than me.

28064212 wrote: »

Ask them to match what you think you could get elsewhere, but you have to be willing and able to walk away if they say "no raise". Otherwise they have all the cards

This is what I'm planning to do. Thank you.

If anyone else wants to add something - feel free to post it.

L.Jenkins

With you length and level of experience, you should be on no less than €40k per year. I'm sure there's people out there with a little less experience, earning far more than €25k.

I've also attached a salary guide for 2015 according to Morgan McKinley, to give you an idea of what you should or could be earning.

Vurnon San Benito

Kamyl wrote: »

Hi folks,

Short summary,

- I moved to Ireland more than 3 yrs ago, with 3 yrs experience as Front-end dev (mainly XHTML, CSS, Jquery)
- I have 6 years' experience now
- I have a very good knowledge of Javascript(native), typescript and lots of libraries and frameworks.
- I recently (less than 6 months ago) started to use nodejs, AngularJs and reactJs
- I'm fluent in english - but as you probably see - I'm not as good as native speakers. Anyway it's good enough to attend technical meetups etc.


What I do
- 75% - work with JSON API and AJAX (ie REST) in javacript
- 25% bug fixes and updates to legacy code

Technology:
- 90% Javascript/TypeScript
- 10% C# (asp.net mvc)

Some projects:
- mobile presentation layer of existing system
- integration with third parties (ie google maps, CRM's, helpdesks)
- chrome extensions
- validation framework (js)
- nodejs monitoring bot
- few internal angularjs apps (with bootstrap)


(of course there's a lot more, but I dont want to write a novel)


My problem:

My salary is 25k only.

Why is this a problem?
- I get lots of job offers with 35k-60k salaries
- I don't think I'm js guru, but I'm neither junior front-end dev anymore.
- I can't even find a job offers with a salary lower than 30k

My question:
Is this just my arrogance or I'm a way underpaid?

Thanks

Sounds like you're severely underpaid even with workplace happiness trade-off considered, fella.

I'm a recent graduate with what I'd consider decent experience in front-end & general web dev but I find it pretty difficult to find any web developer/front-end dev roles available that aren't looking for a minimum 3 years experience.

Saying that, I'd be looking for the guts of 30k if I was taking an entry-level role in somewhere like Dublin to be honest.

On that note, if anyone has any recommendations for myself looking for my first web dev gig, I'm all ears.

Good luck with your wage increase Kamyl, you're well worth up on 45-50k based on that experience.

Decos

Where in Ireland (location) do you work Kamyl?

Trojan

Kamyl wrote: »

I'm aware of that. I don't consider my job to be worth 60k to be honest. I'd be more than happy with 40k.
Interesting fact: our customer support guys earn much more than me.

You have to value your work more and have respect for yourself. No business or boss will take you seriously until you take yourself seriously.

Kamyl

Decos wrote: »

Where in Ireland (location) do you work Kamyl?

Dublin

Thanks everyone for replies

um7y1h83ge06nx

Kamyl wrote: »

Dublin

Thanks everyone for replies

Very harsh salary for Dublin, although no matter where you're located in Ireland you would be under paid.

DoYouEvenLift

You have multiple job offers with salaries that put your current one to shame. Do you realise how much most people wanting raises wish they had the leverage that you do lol? Discuss a raise immediately and don't low ball yourself either, state that the best offer you've received is 60k since they'll have to try to work it down some bit, if you only told them about the 45k offer you'd probably end up under 35k since they'd feel a 20k raise is too much, however if they're made aware of such a serious offer of 60k they'd be more likely to not lowball you as much if they want you enough.

If they give you anything less than a 15-20k raise it's time to leave.

beauf

You have to go into the discussion being prepared to leave.

The Corinthian

28064212 wrote: »

Other companies may be willing to pay you 60k. This one may not. It doesn't matter what you're "worth", the only thing that matters is what the company is willing to pay you.

This. It is an unfortunate reality in IT that to progress, either in terms of career or salary, you tend to have to move jobs.

This has resulted in an industry where moving after a year is not unusual and if you remain in the same place for more than five, people will look at you funny - something almost unique to IT.

So I would suggest that the OP updates their CV and starts applying for jobs. If he plays hardball with his current employers, they'll most likely tell him to go jump, and so while he could try to get his salary bumped up, he's unlikely to get anything more than a nominal increase.

DoYouEvenLift wrote: »

You have multiple job offers with salaries that put your current one to shame.

Not sure he really meant offers, sounded more like job opportunities or adverts. Indeed - if they were offers, would he really need to post here?

Tar.Aldarion

Hi Kamyl, honestly your salary is criminal for your experience and what you do. They are taking advantage of you. I have a fraction of your experience but earn way more, I earned more with 0 years experience than that! You must believe in yourself and what you do, that is what gets you your salary, not you thinking your job is not worth x. Make a case for everything you do that is good, and what market prioces are and talk to the person that can increase your money, you ahve to do this and be prepared to leave. I love my job but would leave if they did that to me. You have to be prepared to leave if not everything is right, you can find a job that pays you appropriately and enjoy.

This is a case of your skills do not dictate your wages, your negotiation does, it doesn't matter what you do, how good you are, you have to be negotiate.

L.Jenkins

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

...This is a case of your skills do not dictate your wages, your negotiation does, it doesn't matter what you do, how good you are, you have to be negotiate.

As a Contractor on a daily rate, I myself am grossly underpaid. I'm on €180 per day as a Software Developer, Supporting my work, Documentation writing and Administering over Linux/Unix/DB Production and Test environments. What caught me out, was my own ignorance regarding what I should be paid for what I am doing. Someone stated previously, with 5+ years IT Industry experience, I should be on the guts of €300+ per day and according to Morgan McKinley, the document I provided in a recent post, I should be on €350+ per day.

So without negotiating, I'm on nearly half of what I should be paid for the role or a deficit of €850 per week, which is a lot of money when you think about it.

Francie Barrett

To give you some perspective, we just offered 30k a year to a graduate in Galway.

moycullen14

Itzy wrote: »

As a Contractor on a daily rate, I myself am grossly underpaid. I'm on €180 per day as a Software Developer, Supporting my work, Documentation writing and Administering over Linux/Unix/DB Production and Test environments. What caught me out, was my own ignorance regarding what I should be paid for what I am doing. Someone stated previously, with 5+ years IT Industry experience, I should be on the guts of €300+ per day and according to Morgan McKinley, the document I provided in a recent post, I should be on €350+ per day.

So without negotiating, I'm on nearly half of what I should be paid for the role or a deficit of €850 per week, which is a lot of money when you think about it.

When you think about it? WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT?? It's a bit bloody late to be thinking about it now!

I despair of people in IT sometimes. Do you never talk to people? Are there any other contractors working with you and have you talked to them? Are you with an agency and, if so, what is their cut? How much is the client paying for your services? You must have some idea of these things, otherwise you will be (are being?) royally screwed.

I keep saying this but when you contract it's a simple deal: You provide time, skill and expertise; the client supplies money. That's it. Nothing more, and nothing less. You had to read some report from MM to tell you that the going rate for a development contractor is 300-500 euro per day? You entered into a contract with no commercial knowledge and didn't even get any advice? Unbelievable! Do you live under a rock? Agents must love you.

You're not Rory McIlroy, are you?

And before you ask, yes, I do take this personally. Us contractors have to fight tooth and nail with clients and agents to keep rates up. Below cost selling - like you're doing - only makes it harder.

The Corinthian

moycullen14 wrote: »

I despair of people in IT sometimes. Do you never talk to people? Are there any other contractors working with you and have you talked to them? Are you with an agency and, if so, what is their cut? How much is the client paying for your services? You must have some idea of these things, otherwise you will be (are being?) royally screwed.

In fairness, I need to agree with this sentiment. It's really just common sense to do your homework on things such as salaries, benefits, rates and rights. It makes me roll my eyes to heaven whenever I hear someone claim that they get paid less and often pin it on some form of discrimination, when in reality they couldn't negotiate themselves down a one-way-street.

If it were a simple case of such people ending up getting paid less, then I could not care less, but as Moycullen says, it ends up watering down salaries, rates and conditions for everyone else when they do.

L.Jenkins

moycullen14 wrote: »

When you think about it? WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT?? It's a bit bloody late to be thinking about it now!

I despair of people in IT sometimes. Do you never talk to people? Are there any other contractors working with you and have you talked to them? Are you with an agency and, if so, what is their cut? How much is the client paying for your services? You must have some idea of these things, otherwise you will be (are being?) royally screwed.

The Corinthian wrote: »

In fairness, I need to agree with this sentiment. It's really just common sense to do your homework on things such as salaries, benefits, rates and rights. It makes me roll my eyes to heaven whenever I hear someone claim that they get paid less and often pin it on some form of discrimination, when in reality they couldn't negotiate themselves down a one-way-street.

If was my fault really, by not researching market rates and my ability to find a job at the time, becoming somewhat stagnant. So foolishly I took the role without argument, but both your advice has proved helpful and something to consider for next time, in which this sort of thing won't happen again.

The Corinthian

Itzy wrote: »

If was my fault really, by not researching market rates and my ability to find a job at the time, becoming somewhat stagnant. So foolishly I took the role without argument, but both your advice has proved helpful and something to consider for next time, in which this sort of thing won't happen again.

As long as you don't get fooled twice, as the expression goes.

Still, I suggest you get out of your present role and take on another at a better rate, sooner rather than later.

Moneymaker

They are absolutely fleecing you. And probably having a good laugh at it.

Have some respect for yourself and BE AWARE of what you are worth.

Any company that refuses to pay you what you are worth, is not a company worth working for.

Speak to the powers that be and say you feel like you are worth more and would like a raise to a competitive salary. You absolutely must be prepared to walk. We're talking about being paid about double what you are right now. That is life changing money so you must pursue it with everything you've got.

Good luck.

L.Jenkins

I'm looking around at the moment as my manager doesn't know if she can extend my contract beyond the end of this month. If I'm fortunate enough to get an extension, I'll most definitely be discussing a significant pay increase, otherwise, my next employer won't get away with stitching me up.

The Corinthian

Itzy wrote: »

I'm looking around at the moment as my manager doesn't know if she can extend my contract beyond the end of this month. If I'm fortunate enough to get an extension, I'll most definitely be discussing a significant pay increase, otherwise, my next employer won't get away with stitching me up.

Actually, you're about to get stitched up again.

You: "Did I get the extension?"
Them: "I'm happy to say yes."
You: "Great. I want an increase on my rate."
Them: "Oh. Sorry, you got an extension based on your current rate..."

moycullen14

Itzy wrote: »

I'm looking around at the moment as my manager doesn't know if she can extend my contract beyond the end of this month. If I'm fortunate enough to get an extension, I'll most definitely be discussing a significant pay increase, otherwise, my next employer won't get away with stitching me up.

Aaaargh! Will you listen to yourself? Fortunate to be allowed to be screwed by your client? By your own admission, this is costing you 800 euro a week or 40K a year. For God sake, will you man up, tell the client to GTFO and leave? No discussion, no debate.

In any case, as you are about to find out chronic low-balling cannot be rectified. If the client agrees then they are tacitly admitting that they screwed you OR that 100% pay increases are possible. Neither scenario works for them.

Of course, I'm assuming the client is smarter than you. Given you are working for 180 euro a day, that's a fair assumption, I'm afraid.

Vurnon San Benito

Francie Barrett wrote: »

To give you some perspective, we just offered 30k a year to a graduate in Galway.

Hiring any more around the Galway area? :pac:

L.Jenkins

moycullen14 wrote: »

Of course, I'm assuming the client is smarter than you. Given you are working for 180 euro a day, that's a fair assumption, I'm afraid.

People do stupid things in desperation. I'm considering my next move as I'm looking around either way.

Elessar

You're definitely worth more Itzy. Even I know that and I'm not a developer.

OP, the same to you. I'm in support and earning more than you. I know how difficult it is when you've been in a job a while, everything gets comfortable and change seems hard. Start looking around and get paid what you're worth!

The Corinthian

Itzy wrote: »

People do stupid things in desperation.

Everyone has been in a situation whereby their backs are against the wall and they'll take what's available in the short term. However, the keyword is short - if you procrastinate and you're still doing the stupid thing a year or more down the line, then you've no excuse [1].

I'm considering my next move as I'm looking around either way.

Mind that no one hands you a gold watch while you're still considering.



[1] There is one potential excuse in fairness. If you've been unlucky in your last few positions/roles and they were all short, then you may need to grin and bare the stopgap longer than you'd wish, otherwise your CV is not going to look nice at all.

L.Jenkins

The Corinthian wrote: »

[1] There is one potential excuse in fairness. If you've been unlucky in your last few positions/roles and they were all short, then you may need to grin and bare the stopgap longer than you'd wish, otherwise your CV is not going to look nice at all.

You're right, I shouldn't make excuses for myself and that's exactly what has happened in the last year. Too many roles here, there and everywhere, but I am looking for something permanent, that pays better.

MaggotBrain

Unless you believe otherwise I'd say the agency is screwing you, pocketing what you should be making. You have the right attitude though, no point in throwing the toys out of the pram. Ireland is too small to be burning bridges over your own mistakes.

Middle men only look out for themselves.

Find a new agency, play hard ball and do it soon as you are being screwed royally.

jobless

cant believe you are only getting paid 25k for your experience level.... you need to value yourself more and get what you are worth...

Im guilty of staying in a job i was comfortable in for more than 10 years and am now struggling to change it... as others said the mistake i made is hanging around too long...
you would certainly climb up the salary ladder quickly if you moved.... just dont tell them you were on 25k previously

conorcan2

It's possible that if you're not from the European Union, or from a country within the European Union with a lower average salary rate then your employer is using your countries average salary as a base rate. Their decision to employee you at a lower rate was a business decision - instead of employing a local at X salary, we'll employ somebody from overseas at Y.

I'm not arguing that it's fair, or that you should accept it, but maybe that's the context for the lower salary?

srsly78

That would be fine if the overseas person was working remotely. But if they live here they have to pay Irish cost for rent and food etc, shouldn't take them long to figure out they are being screwed.

conorcan2

srsly78 wrote: »

That would be fine if the overseas person was working remotely. But if they live here they have to pay Irish cost for rent and food etc, shouldn't take them long to figure out they are being screwed.

Yes, good point.

I have an Irish friend who is earning around the same as the OP (in civil service) and is paying mortgage, food etc and still has cash for occasional luxuries. If he made sacrifices in respect to his living arrangements then I think he could save more money...

The average year salary in India for a developer is around 3,365 euros.
http://www.payscale.com/research/IN/Job=Web_Developer/Salary
(Admittedly, I don't know how accurate that source is!)

chrislad

As a graduate with zero experience, even on co-op, I was offered more than 25k, with a rise coming next month and I still don't have a years experience. I'm doing Java with Spring and ExtJS Javascript. I'm not based in Dublin either. I'd certainly be asking questions about that level of pay, as I'd consider that on the low end for a graduate.

Trojan

Some awesome "tough love" on this thread

carlmango11

What the actual f**k. That would be a sh*t salary if you were fresh out of college and were half-monkey.

The interns in my place are almost on that.

L.Jenkins

Trojan wrote: »

Some awesome "tough love" on this thread

It's the only way to be. I know I'm getting stitched up and this is the kind of advice you'll more than likely never get from a recruiter or agent.

red_ice

I haven't read the previous posts, I'm just in awe at OP and had to put my point of view on this.

I'll be blunt. A lot of people higher foreigners because they will work for less and are more likely to accept what payment they can get. I've seen it a million times. I know of 2 agencies who have no developers, and outsource all their work to eastern European developers for next to nothing, and the work they get back is phenomenal. Absolutely gorgeous code.

25k for someone of your skill set is laughable. You should be upwards of 50k. Realistically, anyone in your shoes should expect 35k-40k as a front end developer in an agency. However, agencies can pick and choose from a bundle of CVs a mile high and will always find compromise with someone willing to work for less that shows potential. This is where you will struggle. You've got a skill set, and are in need of a more senior position, meaning you don't have the luxury of working your way up the company like a junior / intern would without settling for a wage like you're on now.

You should consider relocating to somewhere that has a single application to maintain, something that you can own from day 1 and make your own over time. Your value to a company will be worth more than the 40k intro salary you started off with. I've seen people take 15% pay rises within their first year of a company just because they own that application.

Have you thought about going along to the NDRC / Wayra to join a startup team and be lead developer / CTO on a project? You would match your current salary, could outsource your skill set to other teams in need of developers and carve yourself a corner of the Irish dev scene. The NDRC worked wonders for my professional career, I wasnt even well known in the place.

The Corinthian

red_ice wrote: »

Have you thought about going along to the NDRC / Wayra to join a startup team and be lead developer / CTO on a project?

One can be a CTO on a project now?

red_ice

Well the three founding members of the team I was on in the NDRC were CEO / CMO / CTO. So I'm confident you can yes. It is your company after all.

Have you heard otherwise about seniority / rank / titles within these places?

The Corinthian

red_ice wrote: »

Well the three founding members of the team I was on in the NDRC were CEO / CMO / CTO. So I'm confident you can yes. It is your company after all.

I think you're confusing the role of CTO with someone who happens to be the CTO but is fulfilling another role, such as lead developer, on a project. A CTO is a 'C-Level' title in a company and is not associated with any specific project.

So when you suggested someone is a "lead developer / CTO on a project", they can't be the CTO on a project any more than they can be the Chief Financial Officer (CFO) on it. That's just silly.

dazberry

red_ice wrote: »

Have you thought about going along to the NDRC / Wayra to join a startup team and be lead developer / CTO on a project? You would match your current salary, could outsource your skill set to other teams in need of developers and carve yourself a corner of the Irish dev scene. The NDRC worked wonders for my professional career, I wasnt even well known in the place.

The problem with this is are you putting the cart before the horse? I got involved in a post-startup after the CTO had left. The guy is a serial CTO, but armed with a PhD he seemed to managed to skip getting all that much hands on experience. The decisions he enforced very much demonstrated this...

D.

Kamyl

Hi guys.

This is me - OP.

Six months have passed. I spent this time developing my skills, growing my portfolio and making a little bit of PR.

As a consequence, my salary hasincreased. I did few interviews. All the companies I talked to, were happy with me and I finally accepted a job offer for... 70k / year.

This is nearly 3x times more than I was making 6 months ago.

Thanks for encouraging me. I'm not sure it this would happen without you guys.

Regards,
Kamyl

CaoimH_in

The kick up the arse you needed! Back yourself in future man!

L.Jenkins

I'll be aiming to negotiate myself a better deal when I look for a new role myself. Asked for a pay increase during the year and got it.

Greyian

Kamyl wrote: »

Hi guys.

This is me - OP.

Six months have passed. I spent this time developing my skills, growing my portfolio and making a little bit of PR.

As a consequence, my salary hasincreased. I did few interviews. All the companies I talked to, were happy with me and I finally accepted a job offer for... 70k / year.

This is nearly 3x times more than I was making 6 months ago.

Thanks for encouraging me. I'm not sure it this would happen without you guys.

Regards,
Kamyl

Congratulations, just shows what you can get when you're worth it and willing to fight for it.

Itzy wrote: »

I'll be aiming to negotiate myself a better deal when I look for a new role myself. Asked for a pay increase during the year and got it.

Out of interest, did you do this during a performance review (or something similar), or just approach your manager/superior and say you wanted a pay increase?

punk_one82

Kamyl wrote: »

Hi guys.

This is me - OP.

Six months have passed. I spent this time developing my skills, growing my portfolio and making a little bit of PR.

As a consequence, my salary hasincreased. I did few interviews. All the companies I talked to, were happy with me and I finally accepted a job offer for... 70k / year.

This is nearly 3x times more than I was making 6 months ago.

Thanks for encouraging me. I'm not sure it this would happen without you guys.

Regards,
Kamyl

Good to see you left and are way above where you were in terms of pay. I'm not too sure about frontend pay in Ireland but I'd imagine you're on more than the average? Congrats!

c_man

Nice one Kamyl!