No vaping in public: New Bill

Going Forward

New Bill to regulate vaping courtesy of Averil Power and John Crown.

Being discussed on Newstalk at the moment.

Tobacco restrictions to apply to e cogs.

Timberrrrrrrr

Going Forward wrote: »

New Bill to regulate vaping courtesy of Averil Power and John Crown.

Being discussed on Newstalk at the moment.

Tobacco restrictions to apply to e cogs.

Gob****es,


Don't smoke myself any more and don't vape but can't see the issue with people using them. Local even allows people to use them indoors.

drdeadlift

There is no logic.They are harmless.
I would love to have one of those jobs in government where you sit on your arse just thinking up things to do.

jacko

drdeadlift wrote: »

There is no logic.They are harmless.
I would love to have one of those jobs in government where you sit on your arse just thinking up things to do.

Were you actually listening to the radio?. They stated that there's a misconception that the secondary "smoke" or vapor is harmless when in fact is is harmful.

So I'm in favor of banning it in public places if it is in fact harmful to bystanders.

(Don't smoke or vape myself)

RIchieNouveau

I missed it. Did they mention formaldehyde Jacko?

roast

Having a listen now.
From around 49m in: http://www.newstalk.com/player/shows/Breakfast/5/16086/30th_January_2015_-_Breakfast_Part_2

Timberrrrrrrr

jacko wrote: »

Were you actually listening to the radio?. They stated that there's a misconception that the secondary "smoke" or vapor is harmless when in fact is is harmful.

So I'm in favor of banning it in public places if it is in fact harmful to bystanders.

(Don't smoke or vape myself)

Evidence?

corsav6

jacko wrote: »

Were you actually listening to the radio?. They stated that there's a misconception that the secondary "smoke" or vapor is harmless when in fact is is harmful.

So I'm in favor of banning it in public places if it is in fact harmful to bystanders.

(Don't smoke or vape myself)

I didn't listen to it but was there any mention of where they got their info on second hand vapour been harmful?
I vape like a train sometimes but never in public places, even on the street.

roast

corsav6 wrote: »

I didn't listen to it but was there any mention of where they got their info on second hand vapour been harmful?
I vape like a train sometimes but never in public places, even on the street.

Blah blah World Health Organisation blah blah.

That was about it.

RIchieNouveau

Paraphrased: They contain very high levels of nicotine which is very bad for your cardiovascular system, kidneys etc. They release toxins in to the air which is harmful to people and children (small people?) it's not just water vapour which is a common misconceptions. There have been children poisoned by swallowing the nicotine. This nicotine doesn't have any child proof caps. One child actually died in the states. WHO is concerned that they increase smoking because teenagers can get ecigs who may have never smoked. Concerned about the cigarette companies who own many of these ecigs companies heavily marketing at children. I mean they have flavours like vanilla...

Lau2976

I've never smoked or vaped but personally I'm in favour of this. I haven't read the whole studies but what from I can gather it was originally supposed to be marketed as a healthier option. Not a risk free one. And even if it is healthy in the short term we can't really know the effects in the long term yet.

roast

RIchieNouveau wrote: »

Paraphrased: They contain very high levels of nicotine which is very bad for your cardiovascular system, kidneys etc. They release toxins in to the air which is harmful to people and children (small people?) it's not just water vapour which is a common misconceptions. There have been children poisoned by swallowing the nicotine. This nicotine doesn't have any child proof caps. One child actually died in the states.

I was wondering though, the majority of e-liquid I've bought have had childproof caps on the bottles (push and twist type). What brands don't?

Aye, slightly OT but it sounds like she hasn't done a whole pile of research herself.

Timberrrrrrrr

RIchieNouveau wrote: »

Paraphrased: They contain very high levels of nicotine which is very bad for your cardiovascular system, kidneys etc. They release toxins in to the air which is harmful to people and children (small people?) it's not just water vapour which is a common misconceptions. There have been children poisoned by swallowing the nicotine. This nicotine doesn't have any child proof caps. One child actually died in the states.

And?


A child could die from swallowing a cigarette butt and they are everywhere.

http://www.marshallbrain.com/cp/cigarette-butts.htm

Kids die from guns left lying around

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jan/22/florida-toddler-fatally-shoots-himself-father-gun

Kids die from swallowing cleaning fluids

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/02/05/toddler-dies-after-grandma-accidentally-gives-his-water-bottle-full-cleaning/

RIchieNouveau

Completely agree with you. I posted too soon, check out my edit. THEY HAVE FLAVOURS LIKE VANILLA! won't someone think of the chil'ren?

I've never seen eliquid without a child proof cap, personally.

beertons

A level playing field. Advertising ban will follow.

Timberrrrrrrr

beertons wrote: »

A level playing field. Advertising ban will follow.

And then the taxes kick in, gov won't allow a money spinner like this to go on unchecked.

kingtiger

any link to the Bill? looking around and cant find anything

guess big Pharma are going to bankroll their election campaign next time around

Larbre34

If in doubt, leave it out....of my face thanks.

drdeadlift

jacko wrote: »

Were you actually listening to the radio?. They stated that there's a misconception that the secondary "smoke" or vapor is harmless when in fact is is harmful.

So I'm in favor of banning it in public places if it is in fact harmful to bystanders.

(Don't smoke or vape myself)

The pollurion from everyday traffic causes many 1000s of times more cardio / lung related issues than vaping.No point in talking about that.

sasta le

Some pubs banning them now to be used only in smoking area

Good to know the tobacco lobbyists like Bill O'Herlihy weren't wasting their time in meeting with government members from Enda Kenny down to the likes of Avril.

I'd say the drink in the pub does a hell of a lot more damage than the one or two people who might be emitting second hand vapour. This is about cash, plain and simple.

Like Bill Maher says, the tobacco industry are the drug pushers and the government are the mafia taking their cut.

Going Forward

I would have thought they could have devoted some of their concerns into the ingredients of cigarettes, and their lack of a childproof container.

Ms. Power in spite of claiming to be well researched, didn't sound knowledgeable this morning.

There are basic regulations required, sale to minors being an obvious one, but unless I'm mistaken this is a step towards them being permitted for sale only through pharmacies.

And the taxman getting a more substantial slice of the action.

RIchieNouveau

I actually already use mine in the smoking section and don't use it indoors except at home. I consider it a courtesy really.

When talking about a country where you could arrive at dublin airport with a rudimentary grasp of the language and hit o'connell street and leave with some heroin and smuggled tax evaded rolling tobacco strict regulations on where you can buy ecigs and paraphernalia just look ridiculous.

Uno my Uno.

I'm not entirely opposed to restrictions on vaping but I was very disappointed to hear Senator Power be so uninformed this morning, She said repeatedly that "we have no idea whats in these things" when in fact yes we do, Propane Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin. And then she said that they are sold without child proof caps, I have never had any eJuice that didn't have a childproof cap.

How can they put themselves out as a responsible legislature when they don't know the first thing about the subject they are legislating for?

Going Forward

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

I'm not entirely opposed to restrictions on vaping but I was very disappointed to hear Senator Power be so uninformed this morning, She said repeatedly that "we have no idea whats in these things" when in fact yes we do, Propane Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin. And then she said that they are sold without child proof caps, I have never had any eJuice that didn't have a childproof cap.

How can they put themselves out as a responsible legislature when they don't know the first thing about the subject they are legislating for?

She did sound very uninformed.
Any actual research would have prevented her sounding so bad.

This must be some hobby horse of hers or she simply wants to be Crown's protoge.

Uno my Uno.

Going Forward wrote: »

She did sound very uninformed.
Any actual research would have prevented her sounding so bad.

This must be some hobby horse of hers or she simply wants to be Crown's protoge.

I doubt its a hobby horse if she knows so little about it. It seemed to me more that she was making representations on behalf of someone (which is her job in fairness) who wants vaping controlled or has an interest in it being controlled. Whatever it is its disappointing that her level of understanding and research is so poor.

accaguest

I wouldn't trust these monkeys to do anything right tbh. Swimming in the shallow end of the gene pool in Irish politics/civil service imo.

Where are all these public places that so many people are vaping in anyway, I don't see it. It's more acceptable than smoking, but not by that much.

Mr. TTime

Professor Crown does not appear to be somebody who is prone to knee jerk actions and jumping to conclusions (I don't know him nor have I ever met him). But on this topic he is clearly wrong and rushing to judgement on an activity which in the few short years it has been around has helped thousands of smokers in Ireland give up the fags and adopt a much healthier and active lifestyle.

I would like to see the industry become more regulated in certain aspects (over 18's only, child-proof bottles mandatory, ingredients labelled on juice bottles) but on the whole it should be embraced by the government for doing something it has been unable to, or unwilling to do, namely stopping people from smoking.

Uno my Uno.

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

I doubt its a hobby horse if she knows so little about it. It seemed to me more that she was making representations on behalf of someone (which is her job in fairness) who wants vaping controlled or has an interest in it being controlled. Whatever it is its disappointing that her level of understanding and research is so poor.

It's her job to look after the interests of the tobacco industry? Make no mistake, this is a direct result of tobacco lobbyists meeting with government reps from the Taoiseach down. You don't seriously believe this comes from a constituent, do you?

Uno my Uno.

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

It's her job to look after the interests of the tobacco industry? Make no mistake, this is a direct result of tobacco lobbyists meeting with government reps from the Taoiseach down. You don't seriously believe this comes from a constituent, do you?

Its her job to make representations, who they are from is a different matter. I don't think any of us are in a position to say who might be making those requests and its pure speculation to suggest otherwise.

nxbyveromdwjpg

Lau2976 wrote: »

And even if it is healthy in the short term we can't really know the effects in the long term yet.

Take action on something on the basis of not knowing about it?

"They seem very positive. Maybe they're not though due to something we don't know about. Let's BAN"

Crazy logic.

Going Forward

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

Its her job to make representations, who they are from is a different matter. I don't think any of us are in a position to say who might be making those requests and its pure speculation to suggest otherwise.

I'd like to know what's motivating her.

Her ignorance of the subject is very obvious and she's now claiming they're damaging to health:

http://averilpower.ie/?p=5747

andy1249

Seen this today

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc1413069

It includes references and a list of researchers , apparently the constituents combine to make formaldehyde , a grade 1 carcinogenic , and 15 times more likely to give you terminal cancer than cigarettes !!

Gez69

That came from a report that was taken out of context:

Oops can't post a link because I'm a new user. The gist is that that is only true if vaped at very high voltage.

Going Forward

andy1249 wrote: »

Seen this today

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc1413069

It includes references and a list of researchers , apparently the constituents combine to make formaldehyde , a grade 1 carcinogenic , and 15 times more likely to give you terminal cancer than cigarettes !!

Looks like vaping at higher voltages might be risky?

One of the articles referenced corroborates the non existence of formaldehyde at lower voltages:


http://cel.webofknowledge.com/InboundService.do?product=CEL&SID=Y1Qw7wePam8KM2hiwPS&UT=WOS%3A000343671300005&SrcApp=literatum&action=retrieve&Init=Yes&SrcAuth=atyponcel&Func=Frame&customersID=atyponcel&IsProductCode=Yes&mode=FullRecord

Going Forward

Gez69 wrote: »

That came from a report that was taken out of context:

Oops can't post a link because I'm a new user. The gist is that that is only true if vaped at very high voltage.

Around 5v, that's available on most variable batteries isn't it?

Edit:
Interesting and plausible rebuttal, re "burning" as opposed to "heating" the juice:

http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.ie/2015/01/new-study-reports-high-levels-of.html

Gez69

Going Forward wrote: »

Around 5v, that's available on most variable batteries isn't it?

Well probably, I dunno. I'm still on a non variable and will most likely stick to that!

tommy2bad

A couple of observations on this story, first let's not panic, senator Doyle is a ff senator. Senators have the power to propose bills but the dail seldom accepts them. Especially from opposition party members. Second she sounds uninformed because she is, this bill has senator Crowns dirty paw prints all over it. All the references she has are straight from Glantz's blog, probably provided by Crown.
The scary thing is how far they want to go, not just age restriction and safe packaging (which would bulletproof and tamper evident) but they want public use bans on the basis of no evidence, apart from the misrepresentation of some studies( she even mentioned the discredited Japan one), health warnings, and most ludicrous of all plain packaging same as cigerettes.
Will this happen? No, not with the tpd regs to accommodate and the government working on their own regulations, this is nothing more than attention seeking on Powers part and an effort at scaremongering on Crowns part.
Expect age restriction, chip bottles and all the tpd stuff from the actual government, possibly public use bans, warning labels and bans on display.
Unless we fight expect it all, so if you value your right to vape and evidence based regulation, write to your TD asking them to tell Leo, hands off our vapes!

wallywhittle

E cigarettes are for the weak willed and delusional. Do yourselves a favour and read Allen Carr easy way to give up smoking, you won't regret. It's such a relief to free yourself from the devil nicotine. Does anybody actually know what shiite actually goes into these evil contraptions.

jonski

wallywhittle wrote: »

E cigarettes are for the weak willed and delusional. Do yourselves a favour and read Allen Carr easy way to give up smoking, you won't regret. It's such a relief to free yourself from the devil nicotine. Does anybody actually know what shiite actually goes into these evil contraptions.

Speaking of the ill-informed :rolleyes: ,

And why in the name of God would I want to 'Free' myself of nicotine , I like what it does to/for me , same as others drinking a cup of coffee .... I hate coffee . ( love the smell of it though )

tommy2bad

wallywhittle wrote: »

E cigarettes are for the weak willed and delusional. Do yourselves a favour and read Allen Carr easy way to give up smoking, you won't regret. It's such a relief to free yourself from the devil nicotine. Does anybody actually know what shiite actually goes into these evil contraptions.

Allen Carr shill tries to win friends and influence people by using flame bait!
This will end well!

andy1249

Gez69 wrote: »

That came from a report that was taken out of context:

Oops can't post a link because I'm a new user. The gist is that that is only true if vaped at very high voltage.

The report quotes two voltages, 3.3v and 4.8v , checked my VIP unit, its 4.8v fixed, so its in the bin and Ive quit, got some nicorette to get me through.

In all fairness, this was always too good to be true, all i did was swap a known health risk for an unknown container of chemicals.

Now it turns out to be 15 times worse, should have guessed it really!

jonski

andy1249 wrote: »

Seen this today

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc1413069

It includes references and a list of researchers , apparently the constituents combine to make formaldehyde , a grade 1 carcinogenic , and 15 times more likely to give you terminal cancer than cigarettes !!

Spreading fear and confusion with misleading formaldehyde studies

wallywhittle

jonski wrote: »

Speaking of the ill-informed :rolleyes: ,

And why in the name of God would I want to 'Free' myself of nicotine , I like what it does to/for me , same as others drinking a cup of coffee .... I hate coffee . ( love the smell of it though )

Nicotine is a drug and you my friend are a drug addict. The only reason you consume nicotine is because you are addicted to it not because you enjoy it.

tommy2bad

andy1249 wrote: »

The report quotes two voltages, 3.3v and 4.8v , checked my VIP unit, its 4.8v fixed, so its in the bin and Ive quit, got some nicorette to get me through.

In all fairness, this was always too good to be true, all i did was swap a known health risk for an unknown container of chemicals.

Now it turns out to be 15 times worse, should have guessed it really!

How did you check the unit? EgoEgo battery are fixed at 3.3 so unless you had a variable voltage modle , in which case it wasn't fixed.!
I call bull spit!
oh and the report quoted two 3.3 and 5 volts not 4.8 at all.

jonski

wallywhittle wrote: »

Nicotine is a drug and you my friend are a drug addict. The only reason you consume nicotine is because you are addicted to it not because you enjoy it.

AND because I enjoy it . I know exactly what I am doing and why I am doing it , and I'm ok with that .

tommy2bad

wallywhittle wrote: »

Nicotine is a drug and you my friend are a drug addict. The only reason you consume nicotine is because you are addicted to it not because you enjoy it.

So Allen Carr shill is also a mentalist. No surprise their!

wallywhittle

jonski wrote: »

AND because I enjoy it . I know exactly what I am doing and why I am doing it , and I'm ok with that .

You don't know what you are doing buddy, you're brainwashed like every other smoker. Nicotine doesn't fill a void it creates one.

miezekatze

I'm in favour of restrictions. I didn't used to mind them, but one of the senior managers where I work uses these at his desk all the time with no consideration for others, and it's the same in the company where my oh works. Using these things in the office is really out of order imo.

jonski

andy1249 wrote: »

The report quotes two voltages, 3.3v and 4.8v , checked my VIP unit, its 4.8v fixed, so its in the bin and Ive quit, got some nicorette to get me through.

In all fairness, this was always too good to be true, all i did was swap a known health risk for an unknown container of chemicals.

Now it turns out to be 15 times worse, should have guessed it really!

You are more than entitled to take whatever you want from that report and if you want to throw your unit in the bin and quit then fair play to you .

That doesn't make the report accurate though and it doesn't make e-cigs 15 times worse .

A quote from Fox News of all places

However, Gregory Conley, a lawyer with the American Vaping Association, an advocacy group for e-cigarettes, criticized the study methods.

"They use the device in a manner that no one does," he said.

Using the high voltage for as long as the researchers mimicked in the study "creates a burning, acrid taste" called a "dry puff" that would cause users to adjust the e-cigarette, Conley said.

What the researchers did is like leaving a steak on a grill all day - many cancer-causing substances might be formed but no one would eat such charred meat, he said.

Eric Jacobs, a biologist at the American Cancer Society, said a biochemist at the society looked at the work and "was reasonably convinced" that the chemical researchers measured would break down into formaldehyde in the user's lungs.

"No one should conclude from this that e-cigarettes used at high voltage are worse than combustible tobacco cigarettes," because of all the other toxins in tobacco smoke, Jacobs said.

I still expect some research to come out at some stage to prove that e-cigs are dangerous but this isn't it and until someone finds it i am going to keep on vaping .

jonski

wallywhittle wrote: »

You don't know what you are doing buddy, you're brainwashed like every other smoker. Nicotine doesn't fill a void it creates one.

And you haven't a clue what you are talking about and are coming across as one of those holier than thou people who quit themselves and now think everyone should follow suit , away back to your nanny state with ya .