My Audi A4 has been stolen :-(

goldfishinbowl

My Audi A4 has been taken from outside the house. It was locked, alarmed and immobilized. I have all the keys safe, they weren't used.
The Gardai are scratching their heads as am I.
CAN IMMOBILISERS BE GOT AROUND / BYPASSED?
Have any of you had similar experience.

all assistance appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

MadYaker

Post a picture and tell us the reg number and I'm sure people will keep an eye out for it.

MuppetCheck

Reg, colour, pic and where it was taken from would help.

There's a stolen cars Ireland Facebook page too - worth posting there.

goldfishinbowl

11 TS 1975 TDI, silver, diesel. Querying the possibilities of theft while immobilized.
Thanks.

ShaunieVW

goldfishinbowl wrote: »

11 TS 1975 TDI, silver, diesel. Querying the possibilities of theft while immobilized.
Thanks.

Keyless start hacked I'd imagine or they pulled it up onto a flatbed. Sorry to hear this OP hopefully it turns up.

goldfishinbowl

Hacking/keyless??? Can this be done? Stolen from Moneygall early Thursday morning. Struggling to figure out how. No glass broken. Keys not used. Alarm would have gone off if tilted/moved/lifted Surely???

Daaryl

Saw this on another forum

It's not as simple as cloning the signal since modern keyless remotes use encrypted rolling keys. I don't know the precise algorithm but it's probably a pseudo-random number generator with the signal encrypted using a public/private key pair. Something impossible to clone and next to impossible to hack.

So what's going on here? The article says that the thief "aims" a device at the car and opens the locks. I think the part about "aiming" (there's no aiming involved with keyless remotes) and unlocking may be assumptions on the part of police because, to me at least, you can't tell any of that from the video. All I see is him standing next to the car and then opening the door.

Suppose instead they have a device that rapidly transmits over a strong signal a large number of possible codes of the right length one after another in a short period. They enter a parking garage, or a residential block, turn it on, let it run for a while, and then go through the garage or down the block trying door handles to see which ones have unlocked. I have no idea if this is feasible since I don't know the size of the code search space and I don't know how rapidly a code can be transmitted and still work. The videos seem to show immediate success, but they'd only check the videos near the cars that were broken into right? Maybe they went through that whole garage trying doors and just happened to get lucky with two right next to each other. This would also be consistent with the fact, also stated in the video, that it doesn't seem to work with every car.

Another possibility may involve the way passenger door unlocking works. It's mentioned in the video that they seem to always use the passenger door. This may simply be because it's easier to access the interior of the car without the steering wheel in the way and it also gives easy access to the glove compartment.

But what if it's more than that? In my car, and others that I'm aware of, one click of the fob unlock button unlocks the drivers door and a second click unlocks the the other doors. Could this system introduce some type of weakness? How does it work? Is there a timer that will open the other doors if a second signal is detected within x millseconds of the first? Is the security of this second signal as strong? Maybe not, since it's only acted on after the first, very secure, signal has been received. If it's not as secure, could there be a way to exploit this and trigger it without the first signal?

Thoughts? Other ideas? Maybe they're exploiting some kind of flaw in the code, causing something like a buffer overflow or a comparison to a NULL or something?

moleyv

Yep they have ways of opening and starting cars without keys. It involves car dealer/garage kit. Outrageous really and little is being done by manufacturers. its something that is becoming more prevalent. BBC crime watch had a special on it believe about a year ago. Or else it was a dispatches episode. Lots of new BMW's were mysteriously going missing. It affects many car brands.

Atlantic Dawn

Watchdog on BBC had a show about getting around keyless entry was simple, took minutes to reprogram blank keys.

moleyv

Atlantic Dawn wrote:

Watchdog on BBC had a show about getting around keyless entry was simple, took minutes to reprogram blank keys.

That's the one, watchdog with the one off weakest link. They didn't really reveal the kit used for obvious reasons but it was main dealer/garage stuff.

goldfishinbowl

thank you for your replies. I can't believe that it could be this easy. Im still completely gobsmacked that this has happened. I have spoken with locksmiths (auto) local mechanics and car salespersons all say this is hard to do. None say it cant be done.
But I think my investigating garda doesn't believe it to be possible at all....

Atlantic Dawn

goldfishinbowl wrote: »

thank you for your replies. I can't believe that it could be this easy. Im still completely gobsmacked that this has happened. I have spoken with locksmiths (auto) local mechanics and car salespersons all say this is hard to do. None say it cant be done.
But I think my investigating garda doesn't believe it to be possible at all....

The keyless entry has been the immobilizers downfall, it should never have been allowed and cars with the feature should be uninsurable to discourage them. There's also the possibilty your car was lifted away to be worked on somewhere else.

goldfishinbowl

Have any more people out there more information on this practice?
Possibly information on how you got on insurance wise.
PM if you please. I sense an insurance "battle"
Once again thanks in advance for all advice.
sickened ....

goldfishinbowl

Re. lifting.. thats what I believe happened. .. but for the tilt alarm... thanks for your thoughts. ..

username2013

Yeah, unfortunately this does seem to be fairly common. I have a friend a who had a car stolen in a very similar circumstances to the OP a few years ago. Only thing was he had a tracking device on the car and the cops were able to trace it. Turns out it was in some warehouse on the docks (in Dublin) along with 2 other top of the range cars. Cops reckoned they were been stolen to order, would be shipped off to England I guess and sold on.

goldfishinbowl

Thank you for your replies. I have since found numerous articles online about keyless hacking. Still cannot believe this has happened me. Totally sickened.....
If this has happpened you I would appreciate your thoughts/advice.
I'm still wondering how they got into the car. To do their dastardly deeds they still need to enter the car to plug in their devices?
I would appreciate any information anyone might have.

*Kol*

This has got me to thinking about the keyless entry and the method of being able to unlock the car once you have the key on you by just touching the door handle. I leave the key of the car on the bottom of the stairs near the front door. I am wondering if the car will unlock due to its proximity to the house??? It's only about two feet away from the front door.

pippip

*Kol* wrote: »

This has got me to thinking about the keyless entry and the method of being able to unlock the car once you have the key on you by just touching the door handle. I leave the key of the car on the bottom of the stairs near the front door. I am wondering if the car will unlock due to its proximity to the house??? It's only about two feet away from the front door.

Test it?

*Kol*

pippip wrote: »

Test it?

Am away at the moment. That's why I am wondering about it!!

pippip

*Kol* wrote: »

Am away at the moment. That's why I am wondering about it!!

Ah, that makes more sense.......just thought you were extremely lazy

yoke

What's to stop them using a radio proxy/repeater device, in that situation?

ie. If they know you keep your keys near the front door - they stand just outside the front door, where they can just about pick up the signal from the key. The device copies the car's challenge and forwards it to the key, then copies the keys reply and forwards it to the car. Car opens.

.G.

If you have a letter box in your front door you shouldn't be leaving you keys anywhere near the door. Fishing rod nicking of keys is one of the oldest methods in the book.

iano.p

I have a cousin who works for a local garage. We were in his house at a party one night and a lad pulls up in a new BMW. My cousin said laughing that you can rob them cars easy without the keys. A few bets later the car was open and car started. So it can be done quite easy.

*Kol*

yoke wrote: »

What's to stop them using a radio proxy/repeater device, in that situation?

ie. If they know you keep your keys near the front door - they stand just outside the front door, where they can just about pick up the signal from the key. The device copies the car's challenge and forwards it to the key, then copies the keys reply and forwards it to the car. Car opens.

Nothing at all to stop them. It's scary the range of those keys. I opened the car from about 400m one day (I used the key to the head method!!)

goldfishinbowl

Thanks to every one who contributed to my request. All are appreciated.
Closing this off now.

Kind regards.

Wibbs

Hope you find your car. It's a real sickener to have happen. :mad::(

moleyv wrote: »

They didn't really reveal the kit used for obvious reasons but it was main dealer/garage stuff.

Actually it's third party stuff M. The joke is apparently it was faster at cloning a key than BMW's main dealer kit(and a lot more portable). This has been going on a while and it wasn't/isn't just BMW. They themselves when finally pushed to release a statement that essentially said it was many cars from different manufacturers that had this security hole. BMW was targeted because of resale value and there was a dead spot in the internal ultrasonic sensors which made it easier for the scum. I recall reading a London police report on that Pistonheads forum that noted that something like a third of cars stolen in the greater London are were taken minus the owners keys. Now some would have been older cars that were easier to nick, but this report was from 2012 so.... IIRC there have been threads on two other Audis taken in such a manner on this very forum. A good mate of mine came down one morning to find his Merc and his Ford van opened and rifled through and the same had happened to many of his neighbours with different makes and models of car on the same night(none were stolen, just contents nicked).

Tea 1000

yoke wrote: »

What's to stop them using a radio proxy/repeater device, in that situation?

ie. If they know you keep your keys near the front door - they stand just outside the front door, where they can just about pick up the signal from the key. The device copies the car's challenge and forwards it to the key, then copies the keys reply and forwards it to the car. Car opens.

*Kol* wrote: »

Nothing at all to stop them. It's scary the range of those keys. I opened the car from about 400m one day (I used the key to the head method!!)

The keyless entry keys don't operate the same way as the regular press button keys. The press button ones have a long range alright, but the keyless entry ones are fussy about proximity. I had a Lexus with it once, and tested it a few different ways. You have to be standing very close to the drivers door for it to unlock when you touch the handle. Same with the passenger door. Also, if I was standing at the passenger door with the key and you were at the drivers door without, the drivers door won't open for you. Only the door which is beside the key will open. Also, when starting, the key needs to be detected inside the car. I've tried getting someone to stand beside the closed door outside with the key, with me in it and pressing the start button won't work. I've even placed the key on the ground outside the car with the door open and it won't start.
The way they were getting around this was to use a transmitter/receiver combo, and the receiver is placed close to the key with the transmitter beside the car.
I don't know how they're able to duplicate keys so quickly though. I thought the method with BMW's was to access the OBD port via removing a panel in the front wheel arch, then pulling the cable with the port on it towards you, thus allowing you to plug into the port and clone a key from the ECU info.

Special Circumstances

I'm guessing with BMW that you don't need to clone the owner's key at all - apologies if this seems a bit pedantic! Older types of keys were actual clones/copies as far as I know, but with the newer systems you can delete specific keys without having to disable all of them.

The "Memory of authorised keys" (a phrase from my own imagination) can hold a certain number of key records. Owner has two authorised keys, key A, key C, for example. Previous owner had Key B but that key was deleted when the owner purchased key C at a dealers.
Thief gains access to OBD (disables or avoids triggering alarm) and either authorises an actual key X he has in his hand or fools the system into starting without any key.

As I say, that's my interpretation of how it works with BMWs that have a known vulnerability so that OBD can be got at without setting of the alarm. *


But there must be an alternative method if other cars can be opened and disappeared without any alarm being noticed*. Range Rovers in London were being refused cover unless they had secure parking or some kind of secondary security LINK


*There's also the question of deadlocks - a feature I thought would have been standard on the high end stuff they are taking. Deadlocks are automatic on my car, are they generally automatic or do they need to be specifically enabled each time on new cars?

StereoSound

Anyone else have access to your car recently? If it's as easy as people say to clone a key and drive off on your car like that I'd be wondering who else has had access to my car keys.

dr.fuzzenstein

goldfishinbowl wrote: »

Thanks to every one who contributed to my request. All are appreciated.
Closing this off now.

Kind regards.

Don't close this off yet! We would like to know if you got your car back and how it was taken, might help some other poor, unfortunate.

Tea 1000

Special Circumstances wrote: »

*There's also the question of deadlocks - a feature I thought would have been standard on the high end stuff they are taking. Deadlocks are automatic on my car, are they generally automatic or do they need to be specifically enabled each time on new cars?

For the most part, Japanese cars usually need the owner to press the lock button twice to deadlock the car, whereas German marques usually deadlock on first push, and some I think disable the deadlock on second push.
Mazda and Toyota/Lexus use the once to lock, twice to deadlock method. VW use once to deadlock, and I can't remmeber if it's them who have twice to normal lock or if it's BMW. Subaru have just once to deadlock, no option to not use deadlock unless you use the button on the inside of the door.

mossy50

twice for bmw

kirving

I know that my car (Volvo) is once to lock, twice to deadlock, and there is also a 30 second that will automatically activate the deadlocks unless you set the alarm to "reduced function" mode for if/when you left a child in the car, they could open it if need be.

I've done a little bit with the security of the CAN bus in modern cars, at quite a very low level. Now this is something that a thief can't really access from the outside of the car, but even it is very secure and would require insider knowledge to hack. I would think that in theory the keys should be nigh on impossible to hack, and the flaw is actually quite basic.

VeVeX

skip to ~17:30 minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKr3nXC-tB8

robo10

For anybody who wants to know how modern BMW Audis etc are being stolen Google edilock ltd .They sell equipment that can be used to steal modern cars . They also have videos on YouTube on how the equipment works.

MadYaker

How are they allowed to do that???

pippip

MadYaker wrote: »

How are they allowed to do that???

I guess the process isn't illegal, its just actually unlawfully doing it that makes it a crime.

dieselbug

MadYaker wrote: »

How are they allowed to do that???

AFAIK the intended market for this equipment is the emergency and security services.

monseiur

It's interesting to note that the car has Tipp. reg and was stolen in Tipp.
Perhaps the OP bought it second hand and didn't get the second key from original owner or he may have had a third key.
It's used to be, and may still be, a scam in UK that small time criminal elements would sell a car privately, usually high end models, seller would be the genuine reg. owner, everything 100% legit etc. Car would be sold privately at very reasonable price to attract buyers. Then after a month or 2 the car would disappear from the new owners driveway never to be seen again in most cases.......the thief being the original seller & his gang who had a spare key for the vehicle. Cars were mostly shipped out to Middle East
Just a thought.

M.

bazz26

I'd doubt an A4 would be shipped to the Middle East, a high end A7 or A8 more likely alright. Probably stored up somewhere on false plates until needed for a robbery or it was probably stripped for parts and put in a crate off to the Continent. There is big money in German car parts especially in Eastern Europe.

mloc123

iano.p wrote: »

I have a cousin who works for a local garage. We were in his house at a party one night and a lad pulls up in a new BMW. My cousin said laughing that you can rob them cars easy without the keys. A few bets later the car was open and car started. So it can be done quite easy.

Sure...

tossy

mloc123 wrote: »

Sure...

He opened it with the ring pull off a bulmers can and a cocktail sausage stick, his cousin is Macgyver and throws a mean party

Mintoe

Email car details to stolen@ motorcheck.ie and they'll show car as stolen on their report if anyone checks reg ( eg dealer that might be offered car at low price)

Noccy_Mondy

Had the experience of driving my mates dads 2009 s320 merc. 3.2 diesel, oh mah gurd. 0-60 in just over 4 seconds. Completely different animal to any other car I've driven.

Foreign Sports

Noccy_Mondy wrote: »

Had the experience of driving my mates dads 2009 s320 merc. 3.2 diesel, oh mah gurd. 0-60 in just over 4 seconds. Completely different animal to any other car I've driven.

The s320 has 230hp and weighs nearly 2 tonnes. 0-60 according to parkers is 7.3 seconds.:P

It was probably the torque that made you believe it was faster!

Special Circumstances

Foreign Sports wrote: »

The s320 has 230hp and weighs nearly 2 tonnes. 0-60 according to parkers is 7.3 seconds.:P

It was probably the torque that made you believe it was faster!

Sounds more realistic. The amg versions don't even do sub 4s. Nice bus for eating up miles in comfort though.

Not sure what it has to do with stolen A4 though!

Noccy_Mondy

Noccy_Mondy wrote: »

Had the experience of driving my mates dads 2009 s320 merc. 3.2 diesel, oh mah gurd. 0-60 in just over 4 seconds. Completely different animal to any other car I've driven.

Crap that went into the wrong thread, sorry about that!

Mods, can we clean up them last few posts. Thanks.

dr.fuzzenstein

Noccy_Mondy wrote: »

Crap that went into the wrong thread, sorry about that!

Mods, can we clean up them last few posts. Thanks.

You know, there is a delete option. But leave it in, its funny.

Noccy_Mondy

dr.fuzzenstein wrote:

You know, there is a delete option. But leave it in, its funny.

Ya but I can't delete other people quoting me can I, oh the shame :P

9935452

Noccy_Mondy wrote: »

Had the experience of driving my mates dads 2009 s320 merc. 3.2 diesel, oh mah gurd. 0-60 in just over 4 seconds. Completely different animal to any other car I've driven.

A small piece of advice , when you go onto a forum like this and say something like that make sure its believable. a lot of people here know their stuff
The two fastest cars i drove were a Chevy camaro 6.2l 400hp that was doing 0-60 in 5s flat and a ferrari f430 510hp that was doing 0-60 in 3.6s.
A 3.2litre diesel wouldnt get close

Tea 1000

Is it worth mentioning that the S320 CDI is the slowest and cheapest S-Class?