Mindfulness

purplecow1977

Does anyone know of an online mindfulness course?

I'm not sure what forum would be correct for this query.

Feeling a bit stressed with work.

Thanks

5uspect

There's no real evidence that mindfulness works any better than taking time out, relaxing or exercising; it's mostly just a bunch of rebranded Buddhism.
If you're feeling stressed consult your GP.

jimbobaloobob

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Does anyone know of an online mindfulness course?

I'm not sure what forum would be correct for this query.

Feeling a bit stressed with work.

Thanks

I'm sure if you go on YouTube you will find many mindfulness videos
It's become the buzz word in today's world for taking a step back from what we are doing and not stressing it.

Good book "don't sweat the small stuff and it's all small stuff"

I'd honestly google/youtube some meditation or stress management techniques like that. Finding yourself falling into patterns of thinking/stressing and breaking them before you get stuck into a rut is a useful technique. As well as improving organisation and management of tasks & asking for help where possible.
Other than that, I find exercise / lifting wipes my mind of pretty much anything else while I'm doing it, which is what you're looking for

Alf Veedersane

Anytime I did it, I listened to 8-9 minute pieces on mp3. YouTube is yer only man.

eclectichoney

Headspace is a decent app - I think there is a free trial.

Alf Veedersane

Mindfulness comes in different forms. My Dad found the cd great bit the 8-9 minute ones were great, he found.

Exercise has been mine more often than not.

But yeah, you don't need a course. Just something that helps bring you back into yourself and being conscious of just yourself.

ulinbac

Many different versions of it. I initially tried the Buddhism version. Worked a bit then tried Transcendental Meditation which I find great. 20mins a day, every day.

It is one of the main reasons for getting over my panic attacks, stress and diagnosis of GAD.

Meditation is one of the main tools for combating stress, depression and anxiety disorders. Plenty of proof out there that it works. Think a study last year showed it reduced Post Traumatic Stress in soldiers by a large percentage

gymfreak

5uspect wrote: »

There's no real evidence that mindfulness works any better than taking time out, relaxing or exercising; it's mostly just a bunch of rebranded Buddhism.
If you're feeling stressed consult your GP.

There are plenty of published papers that state the effectiveness of mindfulness, especially on sports performance (which would be a topic I've researched, due to interest). So you can't really state your opinon as fact.

OP, Jon Kabat Zinn's book is very good and it comes with a CD, youtube is pretty good too for finding tutorials.

5uspect

gymfreak wrote: »

There are plenty of published papers that state the effectiveness of mindfulness, especially on sports performance (which would be a topic I've researched, due to interest). So you can't really state your opinon as fact.

OP, Jon Kabat Zinn's book is very good and it comes with a CD, youtube is pretty good too for finding tutorials.

It's not my opinion. To quote the meta-analysis cited on the Wiki article on mindfulness:

After reviewing 18 753 citations, we included 47 trials with 3515 participants. Mindfulness meditation programs had moderate evidence of improved anxiety (effect size, 0.38 [95% CI, 0.12-0.64] at 8 weeks and 0.22 [0.02-0.43] at 3-6 months), depression (0.30 [0.00-0.59] at 8 weeks and 0.23 [0.05-0.42] at 3-6 months), and pain (0.33 [0.03- 0.62]) and low evidence of improved stress/distress and mental health–related quality of life. We found low evidence of no effect or insufficient evidence of any effect of meditation programs on positive mood, attention, substance use, eating habits, sleep, and weight. We found no evidence that meditation programs were better than any active treatment (ie, drugs, exercise, and other behavioral therapies).

I'm all for positive thinking, relaxation, healthy eating and exercise, I don't like the notion that it should be tied up in some new age philosophy and sold as a product that somehow is better than the former.

purplecow1977

Thank you all.
I see the sceptics are out in force!
I heard about the man to you mentioned gymfreak so I will look into it and YouTube.
I'm not the most keen on exercise so looking for an alternative option. (I do exercise also)
Thanks.

Essien

FWIW, in my case, it was actually my GP who recommended it. She said it wasn't for everyone and didn't guarantee results, but she certainly had some faith in it. Doing it consistently has been hard though, I just keep putting it off.

Learn to manage the source of your stress if you can. I'm self employed and would regularly keep myself awake thinking of what I had to do and when I had to do it. Last week I bought a big whiteboard, wrote down everything I needed to do and erased them accordingly. My sleep improved immediately.

That's just my experience though, it may not necessarily apply to you.

purplecow1977

Thank you Essien.
I think it is part of the problem, constantly thinking of all the things I have to do and never feeling like I am really achieving anything.
I need to start making lists, and ticking things off!

I never used to be a 'stressed' person.

dastardly00

I'd also recommend trying the app Headspace. The first 10 sessions are free to listen to when you download the app

Alf Veedersane

I think there's a misconception about what mindfulness is amongst a lot of people.

Anything that flushes extraneous thoughts out of your head is no bad thing.

purplecow1977

Thanks all, truly. Going to sleep now but looking up Headspace first thing tomorrow:-)

Toplink

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Thanks all, truly. Going to sleep now but looking up Headspace first thing tomorrow:-)

'Calm' is another very good app for this. I do for 10 mins most mornings.

Toplink

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Thanks all, truly. Going to sleep now but looking up Headspace first thing tomorrow:-)

'Calm' is another very good app for this. I do for 10 mins most mornings.

blindsider

OP - have you ever tried Tai Chi?

Might be worth considering.

Like all these things, everyone finds their own 'thing'.

Sometimes people associate Tai Chi with yoga - it's not like yoga, although they compliment one another. It's also not a martial art, they are related - but you're not learning self-defence or anything close to it.

Might try some of the apps mentioned by others - thanks for sharing!

Blacktie.

What are the benefits of mindfulness like techniques if you're not particularly stressed?

5uspect

People make money by telling you to do things that you could just do for free.

jimbobaloobob

5uspect wrote: »

People make money by telling you to do things that you could just do for free.

There's many apparent benefits. I guess for many it's that dedicated time to themselves to focus on personal needs and head space to deal with a variety of ordeals be they health, social or financial pressures. Ive never done it but I know many who do following traumatic health events in their lives. All have reported that it helped them to deal with their stresses better but I guess that's all to varying degrees.

5uspect

jimbobaloobob wrote: »

There's many apparent benefits. I guess for many it's that dedicated time to themselves to focus on personal needs and head space to deal with a variety of ordeals be they health, social or financial pressures. Ive never done it but I know many who do following traumatic health events in their lives. All have reported that it helped them to deal with their stresses better but I guess that's all to varying degrees.

See my post on the previous page about apparent benefits.
You can call it what ever you want, yoga, meditation, mindfulness, they're just dressing up stretching, resting, exercise, healthy eating etc in a commercial mantra. If people really need to part with the cash they get so stressed to earn to be told to do these things there's a bigger problem here.

jimbobaloobob

5uspect wrote: »

See my post on the previous page about apparent benefits.
You can call it what ever you want, yoga, meditation, mindfulness, they're just dressing up stretching, resting, exercise, healthy eating etc in a commercial mantra. If people really need to part with the cash they get so stressed to earn to be told to do these things there's a bigger problem here.

I have read your earlier post but sure if someone needs to pay something for the inspiration to make changes to their lifestyle and cope better theres no harm in that. Not everyone can master healthy eating, stress, stretching, exercise without paying into it to develop a timeframe to practice it and learn and see if it will lead to possible change.

From what I know of mindfulness it doesn't involve any of the activities that you mentioned above. As I mentioned in a previous post mindfulness is a modern day term that has been coined to the practice of taking a step back and looking at methods of dealing with what life deals an individual. If they pay something to deal with it and it works good for them.

purplecow1977

5uspect wrote: »

See my post on the previous page about apparent benefits.
You can call it what ever you want, yoga, meditation, mindfulness, they're just dressing up stretching, resting, exercise, healthy eating etc in a commercial mantra. If people really need to part with the cash they get so stressed to earn to be told to do these things there's a bigger problem here.

I'm looking for something FREE. Not looking to pay for it. Not that there would be anything wrong with that if I did. Life is for living and we don't always do what we are SUPPOSED to do. Looking down from your high horse isn't helpful.

5uspect

All I'm doing is simply questioning the motives of the Mindfulness movement from a skeptical standpoint. It's the same stance I take with homeopathy, acupuncture, yoga and a whole host of alternative therapies that make claims that simply don't stand up when studied and can be dangerous. The meta-analysis I mentioned took many of the existing studies on the technique and collated the results and found little or no benefit. There may be parts of such a therapy that work but usually not for the reasons the practitioners claim. (Homeopathy is utterly devoid of any active ingredients but could potentially be an ethical placebo but homeopaths refuse to acknowledge the scientific data in favour of their water memory claims)

I'm not denying that you're suffering from stress. I'm not saying that it's not difficult or that it is somehow a lesser ailment to suffer, far from it. However when it comes to mental health it's easy to make claims about treatments since the problems can be so nebulous and difficult to pin down. These are our brains we're talking about after all they're complex machines and they are 'us'. You can't always treat mental health problems like a cut or an infection with a band-aid or penicillin.

My concern is that with this uncertainty comes the vultures, or even worse the true believers, who will spout nonsense in the face of facts, to sell their magical remedies. I'm not saying you shouldn't try it but I would just urge you to be cautious.

Alf Veedersane

5uspect wrote: »

All I'm doing is simply questioning the motives of the Mindfulness movement from a skeptical standpoint. It's the same stance I take with homeopathy, acupuncture, yoga and a whole host of alternative therapies that make claims that simply don't stand up when studied and can be dangerous. The meta-analysis I mentioned took many of the existing studies on the technique and collated the results and found little or no benefit. There may be parts of such a therapy that work but usually not for the reasons the practitioners claim. (Homeopathy is utterly devoid of any active ingredients but could potentially be an ethical placebo but homeopaths refuse to acknowledge the scientific data in favour of their water memory claims)

I'm not denying that you're suffering from stress. I'm not saying that it's not difficult or that it is somehow a lesser ailment to suffer, far from it. However when it comes to mental health it's easy to make claims about treatments since the problems can be so nebulous and difficult to pin down. These are our brains we're talking about after all they're complex machines and they are 'us'. You can't always treat mental health problems like a cut or an infection with a band-aid or penicillin.

My concern is that with this uncertainty comes the vultures, or even worse the true believers, who will spout nonsense in the face of facts, to sell their magical remedies. I'm not saying you shouldn't try it but I would just urge you to be cautious.

I'm not sure what you think people part with their money for in relation to mindfulness. Genuinely.

A cd/mp3/book?

The vast majority of people only go that far.

purplecow1977

5uspect wrote: »

All I'm doing is simply questioning the motives of the Mindfulness movement from a skeptical standpoint. It's the same stance I take with homeopathy, acupuncture, yoga and a whole host of alternative therapies that make claims that simply don't stand up when studied and can be dangerous. The meta-analysis I mentioned took many of the existing studies on the technique and collated the results and found little or no benefit. There may be parts of such a therapy that work but usually not for the reasons the practitioners claim. (Homeopathy is utterly devoid of any active ingredients but could potentially be an ethical placebo but homeopaths refuse to acknowledge the scientific data in favour of their water memory claims)

I'm not denying that you're suffering from stress. I'm not saying that it's not difficult or that it is somehow a lesser ailment to suffer, far from it. However when it comes to mental health it's easy to make claims about treatments since the problems can be so nebulous and difficult to pin down. These are our brains we're talking about after all they're complex machines and they are 'us'. You can't always treat mental health problems like a cut or an infection with a band-aid or penicillin.

My concern is that with this uncertainty comes the vultures, or even worse the true believers, who will spout nonsense in the face of facts, to sell their magical remedies. I'm not saying you shouldn't try it but I would just urge you to be cautious.

Thanks.

To be honest, I'm not overly stressed. I don't do stress. When I say stress, for me, it's a few negative feelings or thoughts that are creeping in. A feeling of being overwhelmed. A feeling of helplessness. It will pass (for me).

However, I thought learning something about mindfulness and appropriate techniques might be helpful. I'm very much of the opinion 'Google it' but thought somebody might have some knowledge that Google may not throw out easily! I don't wish to spend money on it, unless a particular CD or book takes my eye.

I too am sceptical and doubtful of the benefits of the various things you listed, but it truly does help people. Yes of course some are out to take advantage of others and encourage them to part with their money, but for some people, they find reflexology etc extremely beneficial. Even if it IS a placebo affect - what harm, if the person feels better?

The mind can be an extremely powerful thing.

gymfreak

5uspect wrote: »

It's not my opinion. To quote the meta-analysis cited on the Wiki article on mindfulness:



I'm all for positive thinking, relaxation, healthy eating and exercise, I don't like the notion that it should be tied up in some new age philosophy and sold as a product that somehow is better than the former.

Hi Suspect,
I followed that link and unfortunately I can not read the full article??? There is only an abstract?? The problem with a metanalysis is...they basically take a load of separate studies and put them together to form a hypothesis. From that wiki link I can not find the inclusion or exclusion criteria for the studies that were used? It does not seem that all the studies chosen were based on mindfulness...therefore for statement earlier that there has been evidence to show that mindfulness does not work...is in fact incorrect.

I've attached a journal article below that details the effectiveness that mindfulness has on sports performance, this paper was peer reviewed and published in the sports psychologist journal. The OP specifically asked about Mindfulness and not about meditation in generally, there is in fact a difference. Not that I'm sticking up for either...I just want to make people aware of the fact that research has proved Mindfulness to be effective.

strawdog

Personally I'm in two minds about mindfulness (would say excuse the pun but in some ways, its literally true).

Against mindfulness - there's definitely alot of woo out there. I think that's inevitable with anything that approaches mind/body health in this way. You do have to keep your critical hat on and I'd agree that caution is good policy. I also get concerned that it can lead to a kind of passivity. If you're too busy following your breath and the feel of your feet on the ground etc.. you can miss some of the important things going on around you. Sometimes you need to be stressed and have tunnel vision to respond appropriately to whats going on.

However as someone who can on occasion get overly stressed and anxious, it has proved a useful tool for me to switch off my brain, for instance when I'm lying in bed unable to sleep because my mind is turning. Its a way (admittedly amongst others) of breaking the feedback loop of anxiety. For people who don't have stress/worries it can be useful just to increase awareness of your present surrounding and to feel your body sensations which we tend to screen out. In this context, it certainly doesn't do any harm.

I've never paid a cent for anything mindfulness related. Through youtube/apps/library etc there really is little need to shell out. To focus on studies, for me makes it a bit too goal orientated. I don't really care how effects my productivity or how healthy it is for me. It's not something I subscribe to or believe in, its just something I test out and play around with because it offers a different way of seeing things.

5uspect

gymfreak wrote: »

Hi Suspect,
I followed that link and unfortunately I can not read the full article??? There is only an abstract??

Here is a PDF.
Google Scholar often has convenient PDF links off to the right side if you don't have access to a University Library.

The problem with a metanalysis is...they basically take a load of separate studies and put them together to form a hypothesis. From that wiki link I can not find the inclusion or exclusion criteria for the studies that were used? It does not seem that all the studies chosen were based on mindfulness...therefore for statement earlier that there has been evidence to show that mindfulness does not work...is in fact incorrect.

That is the strength of the meta-analysis! There is a well documented publication bias in the medical literature. Often Academics will not publish negative results, i.e. that a treatment has no effect and even more disturbingly some Journals will refuse to publish negative results. This is a huge problem and hence my deep rooted skepticism about medical claims in particular when authors use statistical tools that can be easily manipulated.

You also don't seem to understand the purpose of a meta-analysis. They do not collate studies with the goal of forming a hypothesis - this is the purpose of the original studies. Say you conduct a trial of Mindfulness, your hypothesis is that the method improves sporting achievement. The trial data seems to support your claim, you publish a paper in a Journal showing that your hypothesis has not been disproven by the data. Others do similar work with different degrees of quality. The purpose meta-analysis is to evaluate all of these studies and see if this hypothesis still holds true. It does not form a new hypothesis but combines all the data, weighted on it's quality (adherence to proper control, sample size etc) to give a better test of the already proposed hypothesis. It is a test of the research itself and a hugely important tool to weed out bias.

The statement I made was that mindfulness does not work any better than other activities. This is exactly what the meta-analysis states.

[QUOTE=Goyal et al.]Our review found moderate SOE (strength of evidence) that mindfulness meditation programs are beneficial for reducing anxiety, depression, and pain severity, and low SOE that they may lead to improvement in any dimension of negative affect when compared with nonspecific active controls. There was no advantage of meditation programs over specific therapies they were compared with. Otherwise, much of the evidence was insufficient to address the comparisons for most of the questions.[/QUOTE]

You are hypothesising that Mindfulness would perform better had the meta-analysis focused on just Mindfulness (which is as yet undefined and without actually seeing the paper!) yet you have not provided any evidence to support this claim.

I've attached a journal article below that details the effectiveness that mindfulness has on sports performance, this paper was peer reviewed and published in the sports psychologist journal. The OP specifically asked about Mindfulness and not about meditation in generally, there is in fact a difference. Not that I'm sticking up for either...I just want to make people aware of the fact that research has proved Mindfulness to be effective.

The paper you did provide relates to sports performance, not stress, and had the words "An Initial Investigation" in the title. The paper had just 13 participants, 7 of which were control subjects, and the testing was a simple questionnaire. In the face of the large number of studies in the meta-analysis I'm simply flabbergasted. If this isn't cherry picking I don't know what is.

Villagio

OP watch Eckharte Tolle YouTube videos.

Leopardi

As for evidence in favour of mindfulness meditation, here's an intriguing article from a very reputable source:

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/01/eight-weeks-to-a-better-brain/

CarpeDiem85

I did a mindfulness course last year and I found it amazing. It really did make me feel more present in the moment and gave me techniques to get rid of negative thoughts as I was going through a patch with a relationship at the time. I'd definitely recommend. Not sure if I can post the name of the girl I did the course with on here but there is a place in Donegal called Ards Friary. It's such a beautiful place and they frequently run mindfulness courses.

random.stranger

So it's a 6000 year old fad?

5uspect wrote: »

I'm all for positive thinking, relaxation, healthy eating and exercise, I don't like the notion that it should be tied up in some new age philosophy and sold as a product that somehow is better than the former.

OP:
I was lucky enough to cross paths with Buddhist Monks doing workshops on mindfulness & meditation, it changed my life. Its not a quick fix though, I think the key is to not try too hard & don't beat yourself up when your mind wonders. The benefits may be very small at the beginning, but if you persist with it you will get better at meditating & feel much better in every way.

It is something I have found to be useful in particularly stressful situations, when dealing with deadlines, sleep deprivation etc. But as I say, you may need to build up your base first. If you try it now & it doesn't work out, I'd suggest you consider coming back to it when you are not so stressed & give it a proper shot, as it will be easier to get into when you are not under so much pressure. It will be a priceless life skill when you go through a stressful patch in the future.

Mindfulness needs to be approached with an open mind, some people will never get it.

5uspect

random.stranger wrote: »

So it's a 6000 year old fad?

...

Mindfulness needs to be approached with an open mind, some people will never get it.

I love how I get accused of being closed minded when I'm the only one posting links to peer reviewed research. Sigh.

Alf Veedersane

5uspect wrote: »

I love how I get accused of being closed minded when I'm the only one posting links to peer reviewed research. Sigh.

If someone spends 15 minutes a day listening to a recording or similar, and it works for them, is that a problem.

I don't know what your problem is with it. It's not Scientology.

bigdaddy2010

5uspect wrote: »

There's no real evidence that mindfulness works any better than taking time out, relaxing or exercising; it's mostly just a bunch of rebranded Buddhism.
If you're feeling stressed consult your GP.

Wouldn't be my first option personally. 60 euro to put you on pills or refer you to counsellor. 60 euro could be spent better elsewhere

5uspect

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

If someone spends 15 minutes a day listening to a recording or similar, and it works for them, is that a problem.

I don't know what your problem is with it. It's not Scientology.

It's not too much different IMHO, both seem aimed at extracting money from people. Both have religious elements. Both claim to have tools and techniques that affect your mind. The Mindfulness movement is far more wooly and a lot less aggressive however. Plus they get a free ride on the media to make claims about efficacy that are not backed up by the science.

I'm a big proponent of understanding things as best we can. If a technique like meditation really works I want to know why and how we can really get something from it. Certainly the Pharma industry is over zealous in pushing a lot of drugs while withholding much of the trial data. If such techniques work reliably for depression and other mental illnesses that would be absolutely fantastic. However people let their personal experiences cloud their judgement and since they met that deadline without a panic attack it must work. It's no different to regression to the mean in relation to cold remedies.

bigdaddy2010 wrote: »

Wouldn't be my first option personally. 60 euro to put you on pills or refer you to counsellor. 60 euro could be spent better elsewhere

And herein lies the problem with our approach to mental health.

Alf Veedersane

5uspect wrote: »

It's not too much different IMHO, both seem aimed at extracting money from people. Both have religious elements. Both claim to have tools and techniques that affect your mind. The Mindfulness movement is far more wooly and a lot less aggressive however.

I'm a big proponent of understanding things as best we can.

I think you're confusing it with what most people take for mindfulness.

It's been used in CBT as one of many tools to help people. By people with no vested interest in The Movement.

And the mindfulness is pretty simple to understand.

5uspect

I think there is a large umbrella under which mindfulness falls and it gets conventionally intermixed when people make claims about it. I'm aware of its use in CBT but as the Cochrane Collaboration shows there simply isn't enough data yet to back up the claims.

Like I said I would like if such things work - but there must be solid evidence.

challengemaster

5uspect wrote: »

The paper you did provide relates to sports performance, not stress, and had the words "An Initial Investigation" in the title. The paper had just 13 participants, 7 of which were control subjects, and the testing was a simple questionnaire. In the face of the large number of studies in the meta-analysis I'm simply flabbergasted. If this isn't cherry picking I don't know what is.

Furthermore the ISI WOK citation report 2013 lists the impact factor as 0.933 (0.700 without self-citation) and 35 or less publications per year.



Combined with a $2000 open access fee... I'm not sure it's a journal I'd be trusting my life with.

Ave Sodalis

5uspect wrote: »

I love how I get accused of being closed minded when I'm the only one posting links to peer reviewed research. Sigh.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/mindfulness-can-improve-your-attention-health/
http://oxfordmindfulness.org/science/
http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/gg_live/science_meaningful_life_videos/speaker/jon_kabat-zinn/the_science_of_mindfulness/
http://marc.ucla.edu/workfiles/pdfs/MARC-mindfulness-research-summary.pdf
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110121144007.htmhttps://news.brown.edu/articles/2014/04/mindfulness

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780124160316000037
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/B:JOPI.0000010885.18025.bc#page-1
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S019188691400453X
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165032714008246
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0260691714001877
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0260691714002226
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780124160316000153

Alf Veedersane

5uspect wrote: »

I think there is a large umbrella under which mindfulness falls and it gets conventionally intermixed when people make claims about it. I'm aware of its use in CBT but as the Cochrane Collaboration shows there simply isn't enough data yet to back up the claims.

Like I said I would like if such things work - but there must be solid evidence.

I think you're attributing more to it than the OP, or anyone else had ever intended.

99.9% of people are just talking about listening to a recording or something along those lines for 15 minutes to flush out extraneous thoughts or address something that is perhaps stressing them.

It's not my thing but if it was I'd rather spend my time doing that than reading papers on it to see if it might help or not because of the lack of negatives for most people that engage in it.

5uspect

sup_dude wrote: »

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/mindfulness-can-improve-your-attention-health/
http://oxfordmindfulness.org/science/
http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/gg_live/science_meaningful_life_videos/speaker/jon_kabat-zinn/the_science_of_mindfulness/
http://marc.ucla.edu/workfiles/pdfs/MARC-mindfulness-research-summary.pdf
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110121144007.htmhttps://news.brown.edu/articles/2014/04/mindfulness

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780124160316000037
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/B:JOPI.0000010885.18025.bc#page-1
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S019188691400453X
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165032714008246
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0260691714001877
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0260691714002226
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780124160316000153

So you're going to drop all those there without context or discussion? Half of them don't even appear to be peer reviewed and are just articles or opinion pieces. How do they fit into the wider studies I've posted?

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I think you're attributing more to it than the OP, or anyone else had ever intended.

99.9% of people are just talking about listening to a recording or something along those lines for 15 minutes to flush out extraneous thoughts or address something that is perhaps stressing them.

It's not my thing but if it was I'd rather spend my time doing that than reading papers on it to see if it might help or not because of the lack of negatives for most people that engage in it.

If something can be shown, in a double blind trial, to work as an effective intervention for a medical problem, be it headaches, stress, back pain etc we have a name for it; medicine. We need all the therapeutic treatments we can get in particular those that don't rely too heavily on an often delinquent Pharma industry who have behaved appallingly when it comes to antidepressants.

If Mindfulness methods do have a real and measurable effect on stress levels we should be researching it for that purpose. It's not good enough so say that it's just a tape you like to listen to now and again, that's either a tacit admission of its ineffectiveness or a selfish refusal to share some secret knowledge with society. (For fear of letting the genie out of the bottle?)

We live in a world were we live longer than ever thanks to medical science. About all that kills us nowadays is cancer, heart disease and suicide. There is massive research into early cancer diangostics (an area I've worked in) which is the best way to treat cancer. Heart disease is all about healthy diet and exercise. Suicide and mental illness is more complex - if somebody wants to make claims about techniques that can even remotely help, your damn well sure I'm going to want to see it fully pursued.

Alf Veedersane

5uspect wrote: »

So you're going to drop all those there without context or discussion? Half of them don't even appear to be peer reviewed and are just articles or opinion pieces. How do they fit into the wider studies I've posted?



If something can be shown, in a double blind trial, to work as an effective intervention for a medical problem, be it headaches, stress, back pain etc we have a name for it; medicine. We need all the therapeutic treatments we can get in particular those that don't rely too heavily on an often delinquent Pharma industry who have behaved appallingly when it comes to antidepressants.

If Mindfulness methods do have a real and measurable effect on stress levels we should be researching it for that purpose. It's not good enough so say that it's just a tape you like to listen to now and again, that's either a tacit admission of its ineffectiveness or a selfish refusal to share some secret knowledge with society. (For fear of letting the genie out of the bottle?)

We live in a world were we live longer than ever thanks to medical science. About all that kills us nowadays is cancer, heart disease and suicide. There is massive research into early cancer diangostics (an area I've worked in) which is the best way to treat cancer. Heart disease is all about healthy diet and exercise. Suicide and mental illness is more complex - if somebody wants to make claims about techniques that can even remotely help, your damn well sure I'm going to want to see it fully pursued.

Fine. You go and see it fully pursued. Those who find it beneficial to use mindfulness techniques during their day can do that.

No one has suggested it as a treatment as an alternative to medicine but to complement it and in the case if the vast majority of people who use it, they're nowhere near a point of requiring medical intervention.

For example, if someone undergoing CBT for an eating disorder is advised to apply mindfulness as they eat in order to strip back the anxiety that they get around eating, would you rather they were just prescribed tablets instead?

It's a very simple thing. No one is suggesting it as an alternative to medicine but as a means of addressing certain issues, it had its place amongst a suite of measures.

5uspect

I'm not talking about alternative or complimentary medicine, those are bogus terms, if it can be shown to work it is medicine. I want people to get treatment that is known to be effective. People here are claiming that it works wonders. If this is true then is should be investigated and exploited. Some have posted links to studies that are of poor quality or cherry picked and deny the meta-analysis findings.

It's not about prescribing pills*, I'm getting exasperated that I keep having to repeating this, it's about demonstrating that a treatment works. If a patient is advised to use these techniques as part of a wider treatment we need the evidence that this is beneficial. As the Cochrane Collaboration summary shows the data simply isn't there and the bias within the field is blinding people into producing bad data because they're so invested in it.

*The exact same argument applies to pills.

Ave Sodalis

5uspect wrote: »

So you're going to drop all those there without context or discussion? Half of them don't even appear to be peer reviewed and are just articles or opinion pieces. How do they fit into the wider studies I've posted?

Articles and opinion pieces, but did you see who by? I've also divided the two because I know the first ones are not peer reviewed. My point is that just because you drop peer reviewed studies, doesn't make you right. The second half of what I posted are peer reviewed studies that show that mindfulness has positive effects on health and negative effects of stress and other disorders. You said you thought mindfulness was the same as homeopathy, it's not.

Alf Veedersane

5uspect wrote: »

I'm not talking about alternative or complimentary medicine, those are bogus terms, if it can be shown to work it is medicine. I want people to get treatment that is known to be effective. People here are claiming that it works wonders. If this is true then is should be investigated and exploited. Some have posted links to studies that are of poor quality or cherry picked and deny the meta-analysis findings.

It's not about prescribing pills*, I'm getting exasperated that I keep having to repeating this, it's about demonstrating that a treatment works. If a patient is advised to use these techniques as part of a wider treatment we need the evidence that this is beneficial. As the Cochrane Collaboration summary shows the data simply isn't there and the bias within the field is blinding people into producing bad data because they're so invested in it.

*The exact same argument applies to pills.

Unless a study is carried out on every instance where it is beneficial, then you don't have evidence for every situation. The absence of evidence doesn't imply evidence if absence.

For the most part, we're talking about normal, functioning people in this thread. People who have found a benefit. No one is mentioning that it cures anything but that it has helped them. Anecdotal evidence.

And where if is suggested in instances like CBT for eating disorders, it is suggested as something the person might try to see if it helps. It's not suggested because it will definitely help. Whatever a study will suggest still doesn't mean it would help. Just that there is evidence to suggest it might.

5uspect

sup_dude wrote: »

Articles and opinion pieces, but did you see who by? I've also divided the two because I know the first ones are not peer reviewed. My point is that just because you drop peer reviewed studies, doesn't make you right. The second half of what I posted are peer reviewed studies that show that mindfulness has positive effects on health and negative effects of stress and other disorders. You said you thought mindfulness was the same as homeopathy, it's not.

And a few of those links are just chapters from the same book.

You just dropped a bunch of links into a post without comment or context and it seems solely for the reason of cheap point scoring.. You provided no rebuttal to my arguments. I've provided context. I've explained why meta-analysis is a better measure of effectiveness in the face of well documented bias.

You can post articles with small sample numbers showing effectiveness all you want but the full picture comes into focus when you compile all the data and the only conclusions that can be drawn so far is that Mindfulness works no better than other treatments or in the case of CBT there simply isn't enough data.

Ave Sodalis

5uspect wrote: »

And a few of those links are just chapters from the same book.

You just dropped a bunch of links into a post without comment or context and it seems solely for the reason of cheap point scoring.. You provided no rebuttal to my arguments. I've provided context. I've explained why meta-analysis is a better measure of effectiveness in the face of well documented bias.

You can post articles with small sample numbers showing effectiveness all you want but the full picture comes into focus when you compile all the data and the only conclusions that can be drawn so far is that Mindfulness works no better than other treatments or in the case of CBT there simply isn't enough data.

I love how you dismiss it all so easily and yet you haven't even gone and checked yourself. Also, did you read the journal links? They're not the same book...
Take your pick: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleListURL&_method=list&_ArticleListID=-718907617&_sort=r&_st=13&view=c&md5=06ee89345395abf385fd93c0b0dc1a58&searchtype=a

You talk about science in order to prove your point, yet with no research in both the positive and negative, you can't expect me to find your argument compelling.

Mindfulness may work no better than any other therapy or treatment, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work.