Never mind the arguments; feel the hate

Donkey Oaty

Hitchens wrote: »

in defense of home and family - "it's better to have a gun and not need it .....than to need a gun and not have it"

This is very true.

Although it is also a good argument for having anything whatsoever, including a gasmask, several tonnes of canned food or a Daniel O'Donnell CD.

Madd Finn

UCDVet wrote: »

I never understood this. Yes, of course, he is free to speak his opinion. But other people are equally free to speak theirs. So, he can say, 'I think X' and someone else can say, 'I think you should GTFO out of this country'.

Both are equally protected.

Except that officially, USA IS his country now. He's a US citizen. He is decrying the prevalence of guns in the US, thereby implying that there should be some restrictions either on how they are distributed or on how they may be used. Such laws would apply to everybody.

Some people who hold opposing opinions seem to think he has invalidated his citizenship by saying this and should leave. Or be forced to.

His opinion is valid, even if you don't agree with it; the "Get the hell out of here" opinion is not.

caustic 1

thelad95 wrote: »

Taken 3 was a terrible film.

As was Taken and Taken 2, Liam Neeson is too wooden as an action man IMO.

Madd Finn

Eramen wrote: »

Next he'll be on the backs of the Swiss where about half the population owns a private firearm.. (oh wait no, that's not trendy enough, let's make it a political commentary about American life and rile a few people up)

Also nobody ever seems to speak about the high rate of gun ownership in other highly urbanised European nations - Germany, France, all of the Scandinavian countries have ownership levels riding upwards of 30%. Some of these countries are known to be safest in the world.

Straw man argument "Nobody ever seems to speak about..."

It has been said here many times that what differentiates US gun laws from those of other normal democracies is not so much that citizens are allowed possess guns; it's the freedom they have to use them.

The US Constitution (2nd Amendment) makes it an uninfringeable right for "the people to keep and bear arms". They can own any firearm they like and can carry it around pretty much anywhere they want. That is the default position. Some cities and states try to restrict public areas where firearms may be borne but these are always vehemently opposed by the gun associations, like the NRA, and are frequently nullified by the country's higher courts.

Yes, one can own a gun in France, Switzerland, Germany Scandinavia etc. And many do. One can even own a firearm in Ireland and Britain. But one cannot walk around the public highway in any of these countries bearing a loaded firearm. Or at least, only with very special license.

By contrast, in the USA you get idiots tooling up with pump actions and assault rifles just to go down to the local burger joint to make the point that "If we don't make use of our rights, we will lose them."

That's the difference.

The homicide statistics for European countries compared with the US starkly illustrate the effects. And by the way, Switzerland actually HAS a high homicide rate by European standards. of course by US standards, it's a sleepy hollow.

Eramen wrote: »

What it comes down to is a cultural problem in the States, where organised criminality is completely endemic and socially dispersed - very unlike other developed societies. This is why we have a situation where over 90% of gun-related homicides are associated with the acts of criminal organisations in the US.

I'm pretty sure that 90% of Irish gun homicides are crime-gang related as well. The difference is that the 10% of NON-gang related homicides in Ireland, adjusted for population, is significantly less than in the US. Even if we only concern ourselves with the 10% of "ordinary decent gun-homicide victims" the US has a much bigger problem than we do.

Eramen wrote: »

The culture of the US compared to European Ireland a gaping chasm - we are so different in many ways that their policies/social comments are just not applicable here, and let's keep it that way..

Well I'd agree with you there, but that takes us way outside the scope of this debate.

Grayson

Eramen wrote: »

I also think it's rather pathetic that we Irish seem to have adopted wholesale the petty 'truisms' of one particular US political party - as if they were our own values or had any relevance to our situation - which they don't.. The culture of the US compared to European Ireland a gaping chasm - we are so different in many ways that their policies/social comments are just not applicable here, and let's keep it that way..

So it's wrong to think guns are bad but it's OK to label all Irish people as pathetic.

btw, it's something like 80% of Americans that think they need more gun control. That crosses party lines.

blinding

When you are making films like Taken 1 2 3 then you may have to question a fella complaining about guns.

Like it or not these type of films glamourise Guns as a major problem solver.

Just saying like !

Adamantium

Eramen wrote: »

I wouldn't worry what these philistine 'world-improvers' that come out of Hollywood are saying. They are a gated-community and can say what they want, because whatever they preach will not effect them in the end, only us. They can afford to get away from the problems/life of the average Joe, yet they still feel quite free to tell us how to think, act and behave.

Next he'll be on the backs of the Swiss where about half the population owns a private firearm.. (oh wait no, that's not trendy enough, let's make it a political commentary about American life and rile a few people up)

Also nobody ever seems to speak about the high rate of gun ownership in other highly urbanised European nations - Germany, France, all of the Scandinavian countries have ownership levels riding upwards of 30%. Some of these countries are known to be safest in the world.

What it comes down to is a cultural problem in the States, where organised criminality is completely endemic and socially dispersed - very unlike other developed societies. This is why we have a situation where over 90% of gun-related homicides are associated with the acts of criminal organisations in the US. It's not the average person that's creating these problems, although non-gang related murders do happen, it's in the vast minority of cases.

I also think it's rather pathetic that we Irish seem to have adopted wholesale the petty 'truisms' of one particular US political party - as if they were our own values or had any relevance to our situation - which they don't.. The culture of the US compared to European Ireland a gaping chasm - we are so different in many ways that their policies/social comments are just not applicable here, and let's keep it that way..

Everything is so politicised over there that it's hard for the average American citizen to come to accurate conclusions about the world environment. This is why they get such bad wrap in other countries. Many of them don't a notion not because they are stupid, but because their head is spinning from all the political mechanisations from the 'two-sides' that goes on over there. It's a tug of war were the people lose and private concerns win. I hate to say it but Ireland is becoming increasingly the same as them in this way. Politics is more and more coming first place in Irish life, standing in the stead of our common drive and values - things that really make us a productive, healthy society.

*Cue the senseless non-factual arguments about guns as per the usual AH standards.*

The USA is often a vast sparse country geographically where the cops (or anybody) could be an hour away if you live out in the sticks. I'd own a gun too for self defense and intruders.

It's the same dissonance that causes social planners to make laws against one off housing and prevent enviornmental damage when in the 1800's the countryside was vastly more populated with small farm dwellings everywhere and their 10+ children vast families. And we're ruining but they didn't? C'mon!

Grayson

Adamantium wrote: »

The USA is often a vast sparse country geographically where the cops (or anybody) could be an hour away if you live out in the sticks. I'd own a gun too for self defense and intruders.

It's the same dissonance that causes social planners to make laws against one off housing and prevent enviornmental damage when in the 1800's the countryside was vastly more populated with small farm dwellings everywhere and their 10+ children vast families. And we're ruining but they didn't? C'mon!

1800's Ireland was just littered with mock Georgian facades.

T-Maxx

There is no such thing as (legally) owning too many guns.