Two-year-old boy shoots himself dead with father's gun

bear1

So another day and another story comes up in the US about a child finding their parent's gun and accidentally shooting themself.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11361827/Two-year-old-boy-shoots-himself-dead-with-fathers-gun.html

Poor kid.
What comes to my mind is that AFAIK guns have a safety feature, click it on and the gun wont fire.
So how come all of these guns seem to have it turned off? Why keep a loaded gun in a glove box which you then leave a 2 year old in to roam about?
I particularly liked this quote from the police:

"It's just one of those things that happens where everything lined up the wrong way where we had a 2½-year-old that was able to take a gun, pick it up, turn it around, and he shot himself dead center in the middle of the chest"

Making it sound like a routine accident.
The father said that the gun was secure... well if a 2 year old can get to a loaded gun in an unlocked glove box then how is it even remotely secure?
They just don't seem to be able to learn, it just simply becomes a case of "someone else's child".

seamus

This is American gun culture.

Apparently you need to have a loaded weapon accessible at all times, because if you do the smart thing and keep it unloaded and locked in a heavy box then you won't be able to point it at terrorists and say, "pew pew".

Hopefully death was instant for the poor little guy and he didn't suffer.

a) a loaded weapon left completely accessible in the car
b) a 2 year child playing on their own inside a car

Parents are idiots. They don't deserve this tragedy, but it's entirely their own fault and they should blame themselves for the rest of their lives.

bear1

seamus wrote: »

This is American gun culture.

Apparently you need to have a loaded weapon accessible at all times, because if you do the smart thing and keep it unloaded and locked in a heavy box then you won't be able to point it at terrorists and say, "pew pew".

Hopefully death was instant for the poor little guy and he didn't suffer.

a) a loaded weapon left completely accessible in the car
b) a 2 year child playing on their own inside a car

Parents are idiots. They don't deserve this tragedy, but it's entirely their own fault and they should blame themselves for the rest of their lives.

From what I've been reading on other sites the child more or less died instantly - shot in the chest at such a small body would say around the heart area to me. DOA anyway.
The last bolded part - bit harsh but very true.
You'd nearly think they'd make a law that yes you can have a gun, but the moment you have a kid then you surrender it.
May save a few lives per year... but I imagine the right to have a fully loaded 0.380 calibre gun at arms length is just too good to pass up.

seamus

bear1 wrote: »

You'd nearly think they'd make a law that yes you can have a gun, but the moment you have a kid then you surrender it.
May save a few lives per year... but I imagine the right to have a fully loaded 0.380 calibre gun at arms length is just too good to pass up.

I have a completely baseless suspicion that the rate of gun ownership actually increases among parents, as they feel they require some "extra" level of protection within the home.

Gyalist

The mother called 911 to say her 5-year-old boy shot his baby brother with a paintball gun.

But it wasn't a paintball gun. It was a .22-caliber Magnum revolver. And the 9-month-old boy didn't survive.

Authorities are trying to figure out what led to Monday's shooting in Elmo, in the northwest corner of Missouri.

"At this point foul play is not suspected, and it appears at this time that the shooting was accidental," the Nodaway County Sheriff's Office said.

Sheriff Darren White told CNN affiliate KCTV that the baby was in a playpen when his brother found the gun lying around a bed.

When emergency crews arrived, they found the infant had been shot in the head. The child was flown to Children's Mercy Hospital in Kansas City, Missouri, where he was pronounced dead, the station reported.

CNN

Unfortunately just another day in the U.S. where an average of seven kids per day are killed by guns.

steddyeddy

seamus wrote: »

This is American gun culture.

Apparently you need to have a loaded weapon accessible at all times, because if you do the smart thing and keep it unloaded and locked in a heavy box then you won't be able to point it at terrorists and say, "pew pew".

Hopefully death was instant for the poor little guy and he didn't suffer.

a) a loaded weapon left completely accessible in the car
b) a 2 year child playing on their own inside a car

Parents are idiots. They don't deserve this tragedy, but it's entirely their own fault and they should blame themselves for the rest of their lives.

But Seamus you don't understand. What if the car got hijacked on the way to the shops. Aka American siege culture therefore I need a gun response.

bear1

seamus wrote: »

I have a completely baseless suspicion that the rate of gun ownership actually increases among parents, as they feel they require some "extra" level of protection within the home.

Probably more fact than baseless.
Another story has crepted up today of another unarmed black man being shot dead by white police.
Syria would be safer at this point.

Captain Chaos

Not all guns have a manual safety.

Two very popular makes of handguns don't have them as standard. Glocks (which most American police forces and FBI and the PSNI use) and SIG pistols.

If a one of these guns is loaded it's easy to fire. Common sense says not to store ammo and guns in the same location. BUt then you have the self defence people who always keep a weapon loaded.

bear1

steddyeddy wrote: »

But Seamus you don't understand. What if the car got hijacked on the way to the shops. Aka American siege culture therefore I need a gun response.

And by armed IS militants... sure you'd need the gun then wouldn't ya.

steddyeddy

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Not all guns have a manual safety.

Two very popular makes of handguns don't have them as standard. Glocks (which most American police forces and FBI and the PSNI use) and SIG pistols.

If a gun is loaded it's easy to fire. Common sense says not to store ammo and guns in the same location. BUt then you have the self defence people who always keep a weapon loaded.

What idiot with a kid buys a gun without manual safety.

bear1

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Not all guns have a manual safety.

Two very popular makes of handguns don't have them as standard. Glocks (which most American police forces and FBI and the PSNI use) and SIG pistols.

If a one of these guns is loaded it's easy to fire. Common sense says not to store ammo and guns in the same location. BUt then you have the self defence people who always keep a weapon loaded.

I tried Googling the gun in that situation but can't really find anything.
As you said, common sense would be to have the ammo stored elsewhere or at the very least put the gun in a locked container.
The problem here however is you need to have common sense.

Harry Palmr

Its like there's an arms race or something....

tomtucker81

steddyeddy wrote: »

What idiot with a kid buys a gun without manual safety.

AFAIK, guns like glock and sig sauer pistols that are popular with law enforcement or military do not have safety, they are commonly known as police specials.
The reason behind this is that any if such person draws their firearm, they are not concerned about the safety, i.e. they have drawn the gun to shoot someone.

Just for clarity, I'm not aware if such pistols available to the public come with safety.

Akrasia

Poor kid. I have a 20 month old daughter and we don't even leave plastic cutlery where she can get her hands on it, ever mind loaded guns.

dodderangler

When are they gonna fcukin learn. Guns are to be stored in a locked gun safe and nowhere else. Simple as. I got my licence on the grounds that my firearm is stored safely in a gun safe and safe is to be bolted to the floored.
Americans they really are brain dead.
Poor kid

Kirby

steddyeddy wrote: »

What idiot with a kid buys a gun without manual safety.

steddyeddy wrote: »

What idiot with a kid buys a gun.

steddyeddy wrote: »

What idiot buys a gun.

I've amended your post in stages to make it more accurate. You will find the final draft to be the definitive one.

You are welcome.

seamus

dodderangler wrote: »

When are they gonna fcukin learn. Guns are to be stored in a locked gun safe and nowhere else. Simple as. I got my licence on the grounds that my firearm is stored safely in a gun safe and safe is to be bolted to the floored.

But if a terrorist or the King of England broke into your house at night, tied up your children and started raping your wife, how are you going to protect your family with your gun locked in a safe?

Cookie_Dough

This is tragic for the child and the familly. However if the family were storing the gun there temporarily while moving house, as the article says, why was it still loaded?
Also, why was a 2 year old left alone and unsupervised in the front of a car? Sad to read but unfortunately becoming more common due to US gun culture.

dodderangler

seamus wrote: »

But if a terrorist or the King of England broke into your house at night, tied up your children and started raping your wife, how are you going to protect your family with your gun locked in a safe?

Possibly most retarded question ever
Well done sir

Menas

The Pro Gun lobby will be along shortly to ensure this debate is balanced.

In the mean time - its the kid I feel sorry for. Terrible thing to have to live with. Same with that supermarket case a couple of weeks ago.

Menas

dodderangler wrote: »

Possibly most retarded question ever
Well done sir

I am sensing a hint of sarcasm that may have been missed?

Captain Chaos

There was the story yesterday about the 5 year old who accidently shot his 9 month old brother in the head killing him. Their mother who made the 911 call stated that he had been shot with a paintball gun out of fear. So sad.

hfallada

If you live in rural US and are 1 hour from a police station. If you have an armed intruder in your home. You are basically ****ed. It's easy for us in a pretty gun free country to say guns are evil etc. But if you live in the us. They are necessary.

Im not really pro guns. But if I lived in the us. I would have a gun in my house. You only hear the horror stories about guns in the us. You don't hear about people who defended themselves against an armed intruder.

There was a long thread on reddit about a women who had a mental stalker. She moved house and he found her. She couldn't get a restraining order against him. He threatened her family and threatened to kill her bf and eventually rape her. She brought a gun and when he entered her house one night. She shot him. What would have happened if she didn't have a gun?

weisses

The mother called 911 to say her 5-year-old boy shot his baby brother with a paintball gun.

But it wasn't a paintball gun. It was a .22-caliber Magnum revolver. And the 9-month-old boy didn't survive.

Authorities are trying to figure out what led to Monday's shooting in Elmo, in the northwest corner of Missouri.

"At this point foul play is not suspected, and it appears at this time that the shooting was accidental," the Nodaway County Sheriff's Office said.

Sheriff Darren White told CNN affiliate KCTV that the baby was in a playpen when his brother found the gun lying around a bed.

When emergency crews arrived, they found the infant had been shot in the head. The child was flown to Children's Mercy Hospital in Kansas City, Missouri, where he was pronounced dead, the station reported.

Using US logic/politics they probably will ban paintball guns

K4t

hfallada wrote: »

If you live in rural US and are 1 hour from a police station. If you have an armed intruder in your home. You are basically ****ed. It's easy for us in a pretty gun free country to say guns are evil etc. But if you live in the us. They are necessary.

Im not really pro guns. But if I lived in the us. I would have a gun in my house. You only hear the horror stories about guns in the us. You don't hear about people who defended themselves against an armed intruder.

There was a long thread on reddit about a women who had a mental stalker. She moved house and he found her. She couldn't get a restraining order against him. He threatened her family and threatened to kill her bf and eventually rape her. She brought a gun and when he entered her house one night. She shot him. What would have happened if she didn't have a gun?

This. It's too easy to only look at cases like this involving complete stupidity on behalf of the parents.


I live in a rural area of Ireland myself (closest neighbour approx. half a mile) and I often carry a knife or a hammer on me when outside the house at night. I don't have a gun as the chances of an intruder having a gun are quite slim, but it is all about proportionate response. In the US, an intruder may well have a gun, several even. And the older you are the less able you are of defending yourself so a gun is required. Look at the case of Padraig Nally for example, an embarrassment to our justice system that he served time behind bars.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Could they legislate more harshly for people who don't keep the gun at least moderately secure? Say 10 years in prison if your child manages to shoot themselves? Or is that taking too much freedom?

the_monkey

But but but ... what about the 2nd amendment ...

:rolleyes:

bear1

dodderangler wrote: »

Possibly most retarded question ever
Well done sir

I think Seamus was being a tad sarcastic.

BattleCorp

Kirby wrote: »

I've amended your post in stages to make it more accurate. You will find the final draft to be the definitive one.

You said " What idiot buys a gun"?

I am such a person but I would hardly consider myself to be an idiot.

Actually I have 3 guns, all of which are used for target shooting.

I keep the guns in a safe and ammo in another safe. The guns are only used on an authorised range and put back into the safe when not being used.

How am I an idiot?

Canis Lupus

seamus wrote: »

But if a terrorist or the King of England broke into your house at night, tied up your children and started raping your wife, how are you going to protect your family with your gun locked in a safe?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=495_1421561814

Captain Chaos

weisses wrote: »

Using US logic/politics they probably will ban paintball guns

Thing is a paintball gun fired point blank at the temple of a 9 month old would have a good chance of killing as the skull is still not fused at that age.

Here in Ireland they are classed as firearms under law and are illegal to own without licence.

Grayson

Jim Jeffries talking about guns. Makes a few good points.

Grayson

BattleCorp wrote: »

You said " What idiot buys a gun"?

I am such a person but I would hardly consider myself to be an idiot.

Actually I have 3 guns, all of which are used for target shooting.

I keep the guns in a safe and ammo in another safe. The guns are only used on an authorised range and put back into the safe when not being used.

How am I an idiot?

There's a difference in owning something designed for target shooting and say an AK-47. It's like the difference between having a prescription for antibiotics and having something like crystal meth.

One is responsible drug use, the other is completely unnecessary.

jank

I wonder how many kids poison themselves by drinking something they shouldn't and I wonder if this makes the News?

Un Croissant

Whats the thought process? You'll jump behind the door of your car and have a good old fashion shootout with the terrorists while your kid sits in the back of the car under fire?

Really, is this news anymore, without clicking into the thread i think we all knew which country this news article was about.

Its clearly defined in their sacred second amendment, its not going to change anytime soon.

Harry Palmr

jank wrote: »

I wonder how many kids poison themselves by drinking something they shouldn't and I wonder if this makes the News?

The "poison" would almost certainly be a household cleaning agent of some sort or a medicine both of which have valid uses in civil society. Guns don't.

Cee-Jay-Cee

The poor child, the parent is criminally negligent although I don't know if punishing a parent who has lost their child would achieve anything either.

jank

Guns do have a value in society. That is why farmers have them to kill prey. That is why Gardai have them to protect us and themselves against criminals. In the US, you never hear about the stories where people intent off violence break into a home are killed by the home owner because they are armed.

looksee

This is a very relevant article http://everytown.org/documents/2014/10/innocents-lost.pdf see page 8 for numbers of children shot, and ages.

Aongus Von Bismarck

If there was more relaxed gun laws then someone nearby might have had a gun and been able to shoot the gun out of the child's hand with their own gun. The solution is more good guys with guns.

hfallada

I think in freakeconomics, the book says far more children die in swimming pools in the US, than by guns. Yet you will never hear a child dying in a swimming pool being reported. Although its a completely preventable death. If you put a safety net around a pool, your children cant enter it. Not all guns can have a safety though

mikom

jank wrote: »

Guns do have a value in society.

Used correctly most things have a value.
Cop on being one of them.
For Gods sake, a two year old was left in a car with a loaded gun.
Who the hell leaves a two year old alone in a car at all.

jank wrote: »

That is why farmers have them to kill prey.

Predators, not prey.

jank wrote: »

In the US, you never hear about the stories where people intent off violence break into a home are killed by the home owner because they are armed.

Ah, yeah, you hear about them all the time.........

1. 1. Orange County homeowner shoots, kills intruder - WLKY.com
      
      www.wlky.com/news/orange...homeowner...kills-intruder/29934462
      Nov 26, 2014 - It's a crime police say cost one young man his life. An early morning robbery Tuesday turned deadly when the homeowner turned the gun on ...
      
      
      In the news
   2. Grandmother of Alleged Intruder Killed by Homeowner Says Grandson Was Looking for HelpNBC 10 Philadelphia‎ - 2 days ago
      
      New information about a suspected home intruder who was shot and killed by the ...More news for homeowner kills intruder
   3. Homeowner kills intruder in Jefferson County - 9News
      
      www.9news.com/story/news/.../intruder-killed...homeowner.../20301823...
      Dec 12, 2014 - A homeowner shot and killed an intruder inside a home Friday morning, according to the Jefferson County Sheriff's Office. 9NEWS at 6 pm.
      
      
   4. Homeowner who shot, killed intruder won't be charged
      
      www.9news.com/story/news/crime/2014/12/...intruder/20454567/
      Dec 15, 2014 - The homeowner who shot and killed an intruder who entered his house through a "doggie door" will not be charged with a crime, the Jefferson ...
      
      
   5. Homeowner shoots, kills burglar - KHOU.com
      
      www.khou.com/story/news/local/.../homeowner...kills-burglar/18316031...
      Nov 1, 2014 - Homeowner shoots, kills burglar. ... The owner shot the intruder "an unknown number of times," according to police. When the shooting ended, ...
      
      
   6. Sheriff: Man who killed would-be home intruder 'acted lawfully'
      
      www.wfaa.com/story/news/crime/2014/12/26/wise.../20910051/
      Dec 26, 2014 - Police believe the homeowner who killed a man demanding to get inside his ... lawfully when he fired one fatal shot into the would-be intruder.
      
      
   7. Neighbors On Edge After Homeowner Kills Intruder « CBS ...
      
      dfw.cbslocal.com/.../neighbors-on-edge-after-homeowner-kills-intruder/
      Dec 26, 2014 - RHOME (CBSDFW.COM) - An overnight deadly shooting after an apparent home invasion attempt has some Rhome families like the Thornhills ...
      
      
   8. Cape May homeowner shoots and kills intruder, report says ...
      
      www.nj.com/.../cape_may_homeowner_shoots_and_kills_intruder_repor...
      4 days ago - A homeowner in Lower Township shot and killed an intruder early Sunday morning, the Press of Atlantic City reported. Ed Murray/The Star- ...
      
      
   9. Homeowner Shoots and Kills Intruders, Memphis Police ...
      
      www.myfoxmemphis.com/.../homeowner-shoots-and-kills-intruders-mpd-s...
      Dec 27, 2014 - MEMPHIS, Tenn. (FOX13) – - A homeowner sends a strong message to some would-be thieves, shooting two of them dead as they were trying ...
      
      
   10. Elderly Homeowner Shoots And Kills Intruder Carrying An Ax
       
       www.opposingviews.com/.../elderly-homeowner-shoots-and-kills-intrude...
       Dec 29, 2014 - A man allegedly shot and killed one of two suspects who were trying to ... 74-Year-Old Homeowner Fatally Shoots Intruder After Being Beaten ...
       
       
       

hfallada wrote: »

I think in freakeconomics, the book says far more children die in swimming pools in the US, than by guns. Yet you will never hear a child dying in a swimming pool being reported. Although its a completely preventable death. If you put a safety net around a pool, your children cant enter it. Not all guns can have a safety though

In the case of this boy......... take out the clip.

jank

mikom wrote: »

Used correctly most things have a value.
Cop on being one of them.
For Gods sake, a two year old was left in a car with a loaded gun.
Who the hell leaves a two year old alone in a car at all.

Predators, not prey.


Ah, yeah, you hear about them all the time.........

I think that is my point proved. Who would leave their two year old in the vicinity of poison or a kitchen knife or boiling water. Blame the parent, not the gun.

mikom

jank wrote: »

Who would leave their two year old in the vicinity of poison or a kitchen knife or boiling water. .

I'm guessing a retard who was allowed a gun permit would be more than capable of all those things.

As I said, "used correctly most things have a value".

Sort out the allocation of guns.

Egginacup

bear1 wrote: »

So another day and another story comes up in the US about a child finding their parent's gun and accidentally shooting themself.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11361827/Two-year-old-boy-shoots-himself-dead-with-fathers-gun.html

Poor kid.
What comes to my mind is that AFAIK guns have a safety feature, click it on and the gun wont fire.
So how come all of these guns seem to have it turned off? Why keep a loaded gun in a glove box which you then leave a 2 year old in to roam about?
I particularly liked this quote from the police:

"It's just one of those things that happens where everything lined up the wrong way where we had a 2½-year-old that was able to take a gun, pick it up, turn it around, and he shot himself dead center in the middle of the chest"

Making it sound like a routine accident.
The father said that the gun was secure... well if a 2 year old can get to a loaded gun in an unlocked glove box then how is it even remotely secure?
They just don't seem to be able to learn, it just simply becomes a case of "someone else's child".

Yeah, that responsible parent had a gun to "defend" himself from non-existent threats. Well now he's got yearly flower visits to the cemetary for his efforts.

Egginacup

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Not all guns have a manual safety.

Two very popular makes of handguns don't have them as standard. Glocks (which most American police forces and FBI and the PSNI use) and SIG pistols.

If a one of these guns is loaded it's easy to fire. Common sense says not to store ammo and guns in the same location. BUt then you have the self defence people who always keep a weapon loaded.

I'm wondering what the statisitics are for people who have been killed by an intruder but had an unloaded gun in the house and but for it being unloaded they would have killed/wounded their assailant.

walshyn93

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Could they legislate more harshly for people who don't keep the gun at least moderately secure? Say 10 years in prison if your child manages to shoot themselves? Or is that taking too much freedom?

The reason people are against common sense gun safety laws is because in America if there is a law it will be enforced. So if there's a law saying you need to keep your gun in a safe then the police will find a way to enforce that law because most of their funding depends on fines. People don't want cops searching your house just because you own a gun so they're against any kind of gun safety laws.

hfallada

hfallada wrote: »

If you live in rural US and are 1 hour from a police station. If you have an armed intruder in your home. You are basically ****ed. It's easy for us in a pretty gun free country to say guns are evil etc. But if you live in the us. They are necessary.

Im not really pro guns. But if I lived in the us. I would have a gun in my house. You only hear the horror stories about guns in the us. You don't hear about people who defended themselves against an armed intruder.

There was a long thread on reddit about a women who had a mental stalker. She moved house and he found her. She couldn't get a restraining order against him. He threatened her family and threatened to kill her bf and eventually rape her. She brought a gun and when he entered her house one night. She shot him. What would have happened if she didn't have a gun?

This is so paranoia driven.

walshyn93

AdamD wrote: »

This is so paranoia driven.

And being afraid of an inanimate object that won't do anything if left alone isn't paranoia?

It's all a matter of opinion. I'm more afraid of people than guns. Obviously people with guns is worse. But people can be pretty dangerous themselves.

Egginacup

[QUOTE=hfallada;93952236]If you live in rural US and are 1 hour from a police station. If you have an armed intruder in your home. You are basically ****ed. It's easy for us in a pretty gun free country to say guns are evil etc. But if you live in the us. They are necessary.

Im not really pro guns. But if I lived in the us. I would have a gun in my house. You only hear the horror stories about guns in the us. You don't hear about people who defended themselves against an armed intruder.

There was a long thread on reddit about a women who had a mental stalker. She moved house and he found her. She couldn't get a restraining order against him. He threatened her family and threatened to kill her bf and eventually rape her. She brought a gun and when he entered her house one night. She shot him. What would have happened if she didn't have a gun?[/QUOTE]

If you live in an area where you are 5 minutes from the nearest police station and have an armed intruder in your home you are just as fucked no?
If an armed intruder breaks into your home and you don't get a chance to call the police it doesn't matter if they are an hour away or down the block. You're on your own.