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Pats accused of under inflating game balls against the Colts (MOD WARNING #457)

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    #842
    JCTO
    Closed Accounts Posts: 929 ✭✭✭JCTO


    DecStone wrote: »
    Well he could have said that then as in 'Look I don't have them but those that I do have you're welcome to'.

    I did say
    I think he would have been better of getting print outs from his phone that wells already has and told him that is all he had relating also

    This:
    On the other hand, I know that mobile phone companies still have records of these texts - they are never actually 'deleted' from the phone company records. Police do this all the time for criminal investigations. But Wells would not have had the authority to seek them out. That I think would have had to come from Brady.

    I agree with you and have said similar above but my point was Brady could have said Ok I will give you the information I have and then just printed out the info Wells already has but that would then beg the question would it be deemed that he was still being uncooperative.

    For me it boils down to Wells and Co were fishing for information they didn't already have. And anything Brady would have given that wasn't new info would have been him being Uncooperative. They really had no proof that Brady had actually more info relating to the case they didn't already have.


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    #843
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,133 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Remember the Mueller report into the Ray Rice incident? NFL officials lied about their knowledge of that and didn't submit their phones to investigators. Don't remember them getting suspended for damaging the league.

    The NFLPA advised Brady not to give over his personal electronic communications, as doing so would open up Pandora's box in setting a precedent. Brady rightly declined to give up his phone, same as Ghost. Nothing but a fishing expedition in an investigation that was failing to find evidence to support its predetermined outcome.


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    #844
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,860 ✭✭✭nerd69


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Remember the Mueller report into the Ray Rice incident? NFL officials lied about their knowledge of that and didn't submit their phones to investigators. Don't remember them getting suspended for damaging the league.
    ah but where they asked for there phones
    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    The NFLPA advised Brady not to give over his personal electronic communications, as doing so would open up Pandora's box in setting a precedent. Brady rightly declined to give up his phone, same as Ghost. Nothing but a fishing expedition in an investigation that was failing to find evidence to support its predetermined outcome.
    but again wells (true or not) said yesterday that he didn't ask for his phone


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    #845
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,133 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    The info is as good as the phone in terms of the precedent it would set.


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    #846
    poldebruin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭poldebruin


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Nothing but a fishing expedition in an investigation that was failing to find evidence to support its predetermined outcome.

    I've seen this suggested repeatedly in this thread.

    What makes people think the outcome was predetermined? Honestly asking.
    It would have been a far better outcome for the NFL and Goodell to sweep all of this under the carpet.

    Why would they want to tarnish one of it's star players and draws? Do you think they wanted to suspend a marquee player for the opening weekend of the season (not to mention several other high profile games)? To have to admit that the AFC championship game (and who knows how many others) were compromised? To have to announce to the world that they had no control over basic game equipment?

    Wells' appointment was welcomed by the Patriots at the time it was announced. I was surprised they found as much evidence as they did to be honest. Who knows what else they would have found if they had succeeded in fishing - or as I would call it - investigating the contents of Brady's phone. The most important avenue for evidence was closed down to them. That was Brady's choice, he may have been advised, he may have had his own reasons, but you will have to accept it was his decision, and he should live with the consequences.


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    #847
    poldebruin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭poldebruin


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    The info is as good as the phone in terms of the precedent it would set.

    ...it has still set a precedent - now players know if they don't hand over their phone it will be considered to not be cooperating and the sanction will be more severe.

    It reminds me of the saying, "best keep your mouth shut and let the world think you are a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt"

    Brady chose to shut his mouth. Had he opened it, he may have removed all doubt.


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    #848
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,965 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Don't forget that the NFL want to get Brady and a couple of others because they were lead plaintiffs in the antitrust lawsuit against the NFL. They went after Brees during Bountygate and suspended him for four games but he won his appeal. They have now got Tom Brady, so if I were Logan Mankins or Peyton Manning I'd be very careful as they were the other two.


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    #849
    poldebruin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭poldebruin


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Don't forget that the NFL want to get Brady and a couple of others because they were lead plaintiffs in the antitrust lawsuit against the NFL. They went after Brees during Bountygate and suspended him for four games but he won his appeal. They have now got Tom Brady, so if I were Logan Mankins or Peyton Manning I'd be very careful as they were the other two.

    It's like the plot for I know what you did last summer.

    Maybe the NFL organised for Mankins to be traded to the Buccs? You might be onto something.


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    #850
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,860 ✭✭✭nerd69


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Don't forget that the NFL want to get Brady and a couple of others because they were lead plaintiffs in the antitrust lawsuit against the NFL. They went after Brees during Bountygate and suspended him for four games but he won his appeal. They have now got Tom Brady, so if I were Logan Mankins or Peyton Manning I'd be very careful as they were the other two.

    ah stop this has hurt the nfls stock massively bradys the face of the nfl and having him involved in this however overblown its gotten has massively hurt the nfl.

    i wonder will you rescind this if nothing happens mankins or peyton


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    #851
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,133 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    poldebruin wrote: »
    I've seen this suggested repeatedly in this thread.

    What makes people think the outcome was predetermined? Honestly asking.
    It would have been a far better outcome for the NFL and Goodell to sweep all of this under the carpet.

    Why would they want to tarnish one of it's star players and draws? Do you think they wanted to suspend a marquee player for the opening weekend of the season (not to mention several other high profile games)? To have to admit that the AFC championship game (and who knows how many others) were compromised? To have to announce to the world that they had no control over basic game equipment?

    Wells' appointment was welcomed by the Patriots at the time it was announced. I was surprised they found as much evidence as they did to be honest. Who knows what else they would have found if they had succeeded in fishing - or as I would call it - investigating the contents of Brady's phone. The most important avenue for evidence was closed down to them. That was Brady's choice, he may have been advised, he may have had his own reasons, but you will have to accept it was his decision, and he should live with the consequences.

    The way that Wells decided to ignore any explanation either offered by the data or by Pats personnel to explain events as implausible and consistently giving weight to interpretations that painted the most damning scenario.

    For example, McNally and Jastremski said that the context of their texts, Deflator etc, were two colleagues joking, talking **** etc. Wells says this is implausible.

    Anderson says he remembers using the Logo gauge pregame, which would have put Pats balls within the range accounted for by the Ideal Gas Law. Wells pushes Anderson to say that it's possible that he used the other gauge and later bases the assertion that the Pats ball were low off of that.

    On and on, the same action of assuming the worst on the Pats part.


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    #852
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,133 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    poldebruin wrote: »
    ...it has still set a precedent - now players know if they don't hand over their phone it will be considered to not be cooperating and the sanction will be more severe.

    It reminds me of the saying, "best keep your mouth shut and let the world think you are a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt"

    Brady chose to shut his mouth. Had he opened it, he may have removed all doubt.

    Perhaps it has, but the NFLPA can fight on the players behalf in that case.


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    #853
    In Exile
    Registered Users Posts: 539 ✭✭✭In Exile


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Don't forget that the NFL want to get Brady and a couple of others because they were lead plaintiffs in the antitrust lawsuit against the NFL. They went after Brees during Bountygate and suspended him for four games but he won his appeal. They have now got Tom Brady, so if I were Logan Mankins or Peyton Manning I'd be very careful as they were the other two.

    These are getting better.

    So we've had the about theory, the one where Wells law firm is based in NY, another which said the NFL is full of Jets fans, the NFL should have told NE they were looking into their conduct about deflating balls..... What else have we had?

    People were happy to argue that Wells took the p*ss with McNally calling him for 5 interviews. That has been proved wrong as Wells only met him once, and the problems occurred after they found the messages.

    Why have the Pats suspended Jastremski & McNally if they did nothing wrong? Surely they would stand by these two if they feel they are being set up?


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    #854
    DecStone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭DecStone


    JCTO wrote: »
    I did say



    This:



    I agree with you and have said similar above but my point was Brady could have said Ok I will give you the information I have and then just printed out the info Wells already has but that would then beg the question would it be deemed that he was still being uncooperative.

    For me it boils down to Wells and Co were fishing for information they didn't already have. And anything Brady would have given that wasn't new info would have been him being Uncooperative. They really had no proof that Brady had actually more info relating to the case they didn't already have.

    Yeah I saw what you had said about the printouts after I had posted. I am a VERY slow typist and typo checker so sometimes by the time I get my post in half a dozen others have come in also. Sorry about that.

    I do think that the human element is missing here also. I mean in reference to Brady. A few years ago I saw an interview he gave and he was almost moved to tears when the subject of his low draft pick/position [he was in the 190s if I recall] came up. That hurt him deeply and he has been fighting that within himself for a long time. And when put on the spot his instinct is likely to just fight and not trust the system. This is going to be a hard knock for him IMO.


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    #855
    DecStone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭DecStone


    Apologies if this has already been posted:
    Tom Brady hires Jeffrey Kessler to handle appeal, sense is 4-game suspension could be vacated

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/brady-hires-jeffrey-kessler-sense-ban-vacated-article-1.2220608


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    #856
    poldebruin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭poldebruin


    DecStone wrote: »
    Apologies if this has already been posted:



    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/brady-hires-jeffrey-kessler-sense-ban-vacated-article-1.2220608

    I wouldn't be surprised if the suspension gets reduced, you never know what the politics of the situation will dictate.

    Do the NFL take a stand and lay down the law?
    Does Goodell mend bridges with Kraft and reduce the penalty?
    Was that the intension all along?

    Personally if I were Brady, yes the suspension (and effective fine) hurts, but I'm sure he will not like to be labelled a cheater when all is said and done, and I'm not sure any appeal can completely overturn the report in that regard.

    Goodell can hear the appeal if he so wishes although the sooner Goodell removes himself from the disciplinary procedure the better for the NFL.


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    #857
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,965 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    nerd69 wrote: »
    ah stop this has hurt the nfls stock massively bradys the face of the nfl and having him involved in this however overblown its gotten has massively hurt the nfl.

    i wonder will you rescind this if nothing happens mankins or peyton
    Oh I'm sorry, do you not like my sense of humour? I thought it was funny.


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    #858
    Knex*
    Registered Users Posts: 22,477 ✭✭✭✭Knex*


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Oh I'm sorry, do you not like my sense of humour? I thought it was funny.

    Don't worry man, I find your posts funny.


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    #859
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,965 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Knex. wrote: »
    Don't worry man, I find your posts funny.
    Whoosh


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    #860
    glued
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,446 ✭✭✭glued


    Wow clearly someone is clearly losing their mind over this whole situation.


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    #861
    Knex*
    Registered Users Posts: 22,477 ✭✭✭✭Knex*


    glued wrote: »
    Wow clearly someone is clearly losing their mind over this whole situation.

    Mike Francesa is definitely going nuts anyway :pac:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2XuOPK5b2U


    Found this hilarious. He's ranting like mad!


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    #862
    phatkev
    Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭phatkev


    Francesa is an asshole, but I enjoyed this! There was another pats caller on the same show saying that everybody was coming down on the Patriots because they are largely made up of white players and the NFL were trying to even out the ethnicity of the team through suspensions!! Then more Pats fans claimed that this was clearly the work Jets fans, its always those bloody meddling Jets!!


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    #863
    Knex*
    Registered Users Posts: 22,477 ✭✭✭✭Knex*


    phatkev wrote: »
    Francesa is an asshole, but I enjoyed this! There was another pats caller on the same show saying that everybody was coming down on the Patriots because they are largely made up of white players and the NFL were trying to even out the ethnicity of the team through suspensions!! Then more Pats fans claimed that this was clearly the work Jets fans, its always those bloody meddling Jets!!

    He just shouts down callers as soon as they say three words, if he thinks what they're going to say is stupid.

    Terrible hostmanship, but hilarious viewing.


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    #864
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,965 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    glued wrote: »
    Wow clearly someone is clearly losing their mind over this whole situation.
    Does that make it doubly clear then? :pac:


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    #865
    glued
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,446 ✭✭✭glued


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Does that make it doubly clear then? :pac:

    No it makes it double jeopardy.


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    #866
    D9Male
    Registered Users Posts: 1,644 ✭✭✭D9Male


    That guy who tried to equate Big Ben wearing a glove with Tom Brady instructing equipment guys to tamper with footballs is unreal.


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    #867
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,860 ✭✭✭nerd69


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Does that make it doubly clear then? :pac:

    how dare you joke about such a serious comment


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    #868
    Jolly Red Giant
    Registered Users Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    nerd69 wrote: »
    iv heard a few people say that the nfl believe the pats had been doing this for a while as they had received similar complaints from multiple teams with regards the patriots balls (although id question how much anyone outside the qb and possibly the rb would notice i dont see how a db could) and while the league dont believe it could have played a factor in the colts game they feel it could have played a factor in others including the ravens game in the previous round (a game which was below freezing point apparently the benefit would be heightened in a cold game)
    This is the problem - some people claim that the Pats have been doing this for years and it is the reason for their dramatic reduction in turnovers.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/deflate-gate-report-re-energizes-stat-geek-s-controversial-fumbling-analysis-of-patriots-225530829.html

    An example from this article outlines that Kevin Faulk had 23 fumbles in his first six NFL seasons and then 2 fumbles in the next five years (after NFL teams were given control over the footballs).


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    #869
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,860 ✭✭✭nerd69


    Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
    This is the problem - some people claim that the Pats have been doing this for years and it is the reason for their dramatic reduction in turnovers.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/deflate-gate-report-re-energizes-stat-geek-s-controversial-fumbling-analysis-of-patriots-225530829.html

    An example from this article outlines that Kevin Faulk had 23 fumbles in his first six NFL seasons and then 2 fumbles in the next five years (after NFL teams were given control over the footballs).

    it seems like the only logic behind the fine being so harsh but thats massively unfair to the pats if theres no proof


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    #870
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
    An example from this article outlines that Kevin Faulk had 23 fumbles in his first six NFL seasons and then 2 fumbles in the next five years
    So nothing to do with a player improving, getting better and working on their ball security?
    Didn't he also avg significantly less carries in those last 5yrs in which to fumble the ball?


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    #871
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,860 ✭✭✭nerd69


    munstermagic11 wrote: »
    So nothing to do with a player improving, getting better and working on their ball security?
    Didn't he also avg significantly less carries in those last 5yrs in which to fumble the ball?

    iv heard that from a certain year (i think 2002) pats running backs suddenly went from an above average fumble per carry to a way below average fumble per carry, some people feel this is heightened by guys like law firm who dont fumble in new england but start fumbling when they leave. i find it to be speculative evidence at best personally


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