Treating paedophiles

JuliusCaesar

There was an article/letter in the BPS magazine which mentioned Project Dunkelfeld - a free German psychotherapeutic programme to treat paedophiles and prevent child abuse. I googled it and found a presentation by some of those involved - it looks very interesting. Here's a recent article.

Remember that this is the Science > Psychology forum, and not a forum for hysteria.

the_syco

Therapy for pedophiles/hebephiles in the Dunkelfeld can alter child sexual offending DRF and reduce-related behaviors.

What does it mean by "DRF"?

jobbridge4life

Not coming from this with psychological expertise, but with a background in criminology it definitely looks promising. Honestly I am surprised the programme has been able to operate at all given the aforementioned hysteria.

Semele

Brilliant- I heard about this a while back and have told others about it but could never remember what it was called or any other details!

Thanks for linking.

The Black Oil

DRF seems to be dynamic risk factors, as per the study link.

I heard about this somewhere - I think in the media - This American Life, possibly.

Less on topic, but I'm reminded of the COPINE project that used to be in Cork. Not sure it's still on the go. There are a few papers around that I had a look at whilst in college, not something you'd sit down and read at your leisure.

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089%2F109493103321168009

http://www.probation.ie/pws/websitepublishingdec09.nsf/AttachmentsByTitle/IPJ+2008+-+The+COPINE+Project,+ETHEL+QUAYLE/$FILE/2008+-+The+COPINE+Project,+ETHEL+QUAYLE.pdf

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/229652487_Child_pornography_and_the_Internet_Perpetuating_a_cycle_of_abuse

Also, Louis Theroux has a documentary from a few years back wherein he spends time in a prison with sexual offenders. There's a psychologist in that uses some sort of method (maybe this) to work with the men. Part of the assessment involves - at least in the documentary - checking their physical response in the trouser department.

Valmont

14.5% of the sample were 'diagnosed' as being sexually attracted to adults?

Also worrying is that only eighty participants completed the treatment with 203 being labelled 'treatment deniers' - anyone know what this means specifically? I can only access the slideshow.

JuliusCaesar

Here's the abstract of the study linked above (there have been other studies too):

Original Research
The German Dunkelfeld Project: A Pilot Study to Prevent Child Sexual Abuse and the Use of Child Abusive Images

Klaus M. Beier MD, PhD,
Dorit Grundmann MSc,
Laura F. Kuhle MSc,
Gerold Scherner MSc,
Anna Konrad MSc and
Till Amelung MD*

Article first published online: 4 DEC 2014

DOI: 10.1111/jsm.12785

© 2014 International Society for Sexual Medicine

Issue
Cover image for Vol. 11 Issue 12 The Journal of Sexual Medicine

Keywords:

Pedophilia;
Prevention;
Therapy;
Child Sexual Abuse;
Child Abusive Images

Abstract

Introduction
Sexual interest toward prepubescents and pubescents (pedophilia and hebephilia) constitutes a major risk factor for child sexual abuse (CSA) and viewing of child abusive images, i.e., child pornography offenses (CPO). Most child sexual exploitation involving CSA and CPO are undetected and unprosecuted in the “Dunkelfeld” (German: “dark field”).

Aim
This study assesses a treatment program to enhance behavioral control and reduce associated dynamic risk factors (DRF) in self-motivated pedophiles/hebephiles in the Dunkelfeld.

Methods
Between 2005 and 2011, 319 undetected help-seeking pedophiles and hebephiles expressed interest in taking part in an anonymous and confidential 1-year-treatment program using broad cognitive behavioral methodology in the Prevention Project Dunkelfeld. Therapy was assessed using nonrandomized waiting list control design (n = 53 treated group [TG]; n = 22 untreated control group [CG]).

Main Outcome Measures
Self-reported pre-/posttreatment DRF changes were assessed and compared with CG. Offending behavior characteristics were also assessed via self-reporting.

Results
No pre-/postassessment changes occurred in the control group. Emotional deficits and offense-supportive cognitions decreased in the TG; posttherapy sexual self-regulation increased. Treatment-related changes were distributed unequally across offender groups. None of the offending behavior reported for the TG was identified as such by the legal authorities. However, five of 25 CSA offenders and 29 of 32 CPO offenders reported ongoing behaviors under therapy.

Conclusions
Therapy for pedophiles/hebephiles in the Dunkelfeld can alter child sexual offending DRF and reduce-related behaviors. Unidentified, unlawful child sexual exploitative behaviors are more prevalent in this population than in officially reported recidivism. Further research into factors predictive of problematic sexual behaviors in the Dunkelfeld is warranted.

Beier KM, Grundmann D, Kuhle LF, Scherner G, Konrad A, and Amelung T. The German Dunkelfeld Project: A pilot study to prevent child sexual abuse and the use of child abusive images. J Sex Med **;**:**–**.

Yes, it's not clear what "ongoing behaviours" means in the abstract - could be anything from actual offending to masturbation.

But at this point any treatment is better than NO treatment. These are mostly self-identified men, who are uncomfortable about their orientation - uncomfortable enough to contact the treaters voluntarily and attend for treatment.


I don't think the project in UCC continued beyond the principal researchers leaving to go to another university - I may be wrong though.

The Black Oil

Valmont wrote: »

14.5% of the sample were 'diagnosed' as being sexually attracted to adults?

Also worrying is that only eighty participants completed the treatment with 203 being labelled 'treatment deniers' - anyone know what this means specifically? I can only access the slideshow.

Curious about this, too. I've emailed the researchers to ask.

Valmont

It's especially puzzling considering all of the subjects were volunteers who wanted help, why would they then 'deny' the treatment offered? Could it be that it wasn't effective and the researchers have ran around the issue with the mother of all euphemisms? Anyway I don't know but I'll be curious to see what they say.

The Black Oil

I'm going to do some more digging on the Project as there was some stuff on Google Scholar when I checked a few weeks back.

Anyway, I got a response from them. Didn't think I would as I had to use a contact form thing.

"Treatment deniers“ are those potential participants who took part in the first interview and were principally eligible for treatment offered at our site. Nevertheless many of those cannot participate in therapy sessions on a regular basis as they might live too far away, may meanwhile have found a treatment option closer to their home, cannot organize participation due to job duties etc. Generally spoken these are those people who meet the inclusion criteria, get the information that we would offer them participation in the program but deny or have to deny due to different reasons and respond “ no thank you, at the moment I cannot participate “ – it has to be stated that those who deny treatment are always welcome to contact us in future to see how we can support or take up therapy if their perequisites change…

Best regards

g.scherner

Sounds like quite practical reasons, then.

The Black Oil

Although the individual is deceased and afaik, the inquiry historical, I don't want to delve into the particular case that's in the news headlines at the moment.

There's talk of this individual having been 'diagnosed' a paedophile. a) how, outside of a conviction, is such behaviour observed and b) what are the criteria for the dx, if this process still occurs?

jobbridge4life

Is it BS?

The Black Oil

Recent BBC documentary about treating sex offenders. It was on after midnight, so I didn't listen live. MP3 link here.

The Black Oil

Gave that a listen this morning. Sobering and non-sensationalist, as expected. I'm going to send the link to the researcher whose email I quoted earlier in the thread. I thought the Dutch "Stop It Now", perspective was very interesting including that they didn't seem to get any backlash about it, if I understood correctly.

The Black Oil

Long, but worthwhile piece in the Irish Times - interviews with people who have been abused and those who work in the area.

In the UK the Stop It Now! helpline encourages men or their families who are concerned about potentially harmful behaviour to get help before a child is abused. In Germany, Prevention Project Dunkelfeld offers therapy to paedophiles and hebephiles who have not offended.

In Ireland clinicians have lobbied for a Stop It Now! programme, to little avail. Keith O’Reilly, the Temple Street social worker, and Nick Bankes, the clinical psychologist, are among those who have called for more therapeutic interventions to stop potential abusers from ever offending and stop existing abusers from reoffending.

And the usual Irish story, a lack of resources.

Coming up next week.

Beyond Redemption?, a Would You Believe? special on RTÉ One at 10.15pm on Thursday, October 20th, looks at the way we deal with sex offenders who have been released back into society

JuliusCaesar

Yes, I read the article yesterday on incest, and thought it was a really good account - especially as it said that most fathers/brothers/mothers who force sexual relations on a child aren't really paedophiles but are "interested in grooming a family and a child and exercising power and control". They are "not primarily interested in sexual gratification". "Sex abusers tend to marginalised, lonely and isolate men with poor boundaries and a poor sense of self who can't form proper relationships with adults" and also have "narcissistic traits".

Treating these people (90% male) would do a lot to prevent abuse.

An excellent article and I'd urge everyone involved in the caring professions to read it.

The Black Oil

It was refreshing to read an article from the frontline.

Isolation underlines so many issues.

The Black Oil

Well, India appears to be going down the castration route. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-37694475

The Black Oil

The Would You Believe doc was very good. Can't imagine public perception changing, though. Got to hand it to the church members in Canada. Not an easy thing to do.

The Black Oil

Another worthy piece in the Times.

A mother and her young son board a train and sit opposite a fortysomething man. When they get up to disembark the man’s smile towards the blond boy takes on a troubled edge. “Do you love children a little more than you like?” asks the advertisement on TV screens on Berlin’s U-Bahn trains. The final message – “Don’t become a perpetrator” – is also the name of a groundbreaking paedophile research and therapy programme.

The campaign began in Berlin 11 years ago and now operates in 10 cities across Germany. About 7,000 people have made contact, and about 1,000 paedophiles – people who are sexually attracted to children – have received therapy.

JuliusCaesar

I wonder are there any such programmes here....

dar100

The Black Oil wrote: »

Another worthy piece in the Times.

The article this came from, I believe.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/germany-s-secret-paedophilia-experiment-1.2897942

The state handing over children in care to paedophiles, as a research experiment. You'd hope nothing like this happens in this day and age. However, recent information on how the Child and Family Agency has handled placements of children in the not to distanced past, is not encouraging

JuliusCaesar

There were a lot of things that were seen as radical and progressive and so on in the late 60s/early 70s. There was a backlash against stultifying norms and conventionality and unfortunately sometimes the baby got thrown out with the bathwater, the swing was in some cases WAY too far. Sometimes it was a good thing though - I certainly don't think we would have got to the current acceptance of different sexualities if this hadn't happened, and it was probably crucial in the secularisation of society in general.


SO, some of the wild and radical ideas turned out to be plain nuts, or criminal. And it's entirely regrettable that they happened at all. And some people may have been plying their own agenda. Don't forget PIE was claiming respectability and quoting Freudian child-sexuality mish-mash, so it sounded good, and they were taken seriously by respectable media/journalists. (PIE = Paedophile Information Exchange, for you youngsters who don't remember this time period )

Jimmy Bottlehead

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

I wonder are there any such programmes here....

I don't believe so, from the research I did recently. Dunkelfeld is very successful, but in the UK and Ireland at present, I understand you need to commit a crime against a minor before you'll receive help. Pre-crime assistance is not available.

dar100

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

I don't believe so, from the research I did recently. Dunkelfeld is very successful, but in the UK and Ireland at present, I understand you need to commit a crime against a minor before you'll receive help. Pre-crime assistance is not available.

Ireland is mainly a reactionary Country, historically we do little in the realm of prevention. Some areas such as Early years intervention, and to a limited extent substance use, have started to get better with this

We seem to be stuck in a fire fighting, crisis type way of working with people.

The Black Oil

Decent piece on BBC radio 4 this morning. Skip to 1 hour 10 minutes.

This is largely owing to the recent comments (according to the Guardian) of Simon Bailey.

Simon Bailey, the National Police Chiefs’ Council lead for child protection, said police were struggling to cope with the huge numbers of criminals looking at indecent images of children online and should focus their resources on high-risk offenders.

“There are undoubtedly tens of thousands of men that are seeking to exploit children online with a view to meeting them, with a view to then raping them and performing the most awful sexual abuse upon them,” said Bailey, the head of Operation Hydrant, the nationwide inquiry into historical child sexual abuse.

“That’s where I believe our focus has got to be. They are the individuals that pose the really significant threat.”

There was push back from Labour MP Yvette Cooper, as per the Guardian article.

Radio 4 piece also includes commentary from the Lucy Faithfull Foundation.

Sad that numbers are increasing. Disturbing.

Original clip with Bailey here.

Freedive Ireland

Aside from publishing the address and possibly endangering others, the comments on the article are also worrying. http://sligotoday.ie/details.php?id=44582

euser1984

I think it's becoming to realize that paedophiles and child molestors are different things.
Just like some people are homo-sexual or bi-sexual as sexual preference, some are turned on by young people....the problem is identifying whether the person will do something to a child. These people need to be able to talk about these problems with professionals so they can cope and realize it's not fair to do that to a minor - and i'm talking about people that don't want to harm others.
apperently the figure can be 1 out of every 35 people can be turned on by a minor....it's a complex issue but in the uk paedophiles are being treated differently when reported due to how many of them they are....the resources just aren't there to criminalise them.

Would you like to be made  a criminal if you had a twin brother and he liked "hot spicy chicken curry" and you didn't.....if the hot spicy curry was illegal not to like then there is something wrong with you? It's a strange complex world that humans exist in.

dar100

euser1984 wrote: »

I think it's becoming to realize that paedophiles and child molestors are different things.
Just like some people are homo-sexual or bi-sexual as sexual preference, some are turned on by young people....the problem is identifying whether the person will do something to a child. These people need to be able to talk about these problems with professionals so they can cope and realize it's not fair to do that to a minor - and i'm talking about people that don't want to harm others.
apperently the figure can be 1 out of every 35 people can be turned on by a minor....it's a complex issue but in the uk paedophiles are being treated differently when reported due to how many of them they are....the resources just aren't there to criminalise them.

Would you like to be made  a criminal if you had a twin brother and he liked "hot spicy chicken curry" and you didn't.....if the hot spicy curry was illegal not to like then there is something wrong with you? It's a strange complex world that humans exist in.

Hot spicy chicken curry is not going to be extremely traumatised by a predictors sick act now, is it?

euser1984

dar100 wrote: »

euser1984 wrote: »

I think it's becoming to realize that paedophiles and child molestors are different things.
Just like some people are homo-sexual or bi-sexual as sexual preference, some are turned on by young people....the problem is identifying whether the person will do something to a child. These people need to be able to talk about these problems with professionals so they can cope and realize it's not fair to do that to a minor - and i'm talking about people that don't want to harm others.
apperently the figure can be 1 out of every 35 people can be turned on by a minor....it's a complex issue but in the uk paedophiles are being treated differently when reported due to how many of them they are....the resources just aren't there to criminalise them.

Would you like to be made  a criminal if you had a twin brother and he liked "hot spicy chicken curry" and you didn't.....if the hot spicy curry was illegal not to like then there is something wrong with you? It's a strange complex world that humans exist in.

Hot spicy chicken curry is not going to be extremely traumatised by a predictors sick act now, is it?

ahhhh, it was a bad example but taking that out of what I'm saying is completely negligible. I suppose I didn't think too much about going to the trouble of creating a better example because; this is not as far as I can see a thread that is designed to be sensitive towards peoples feelings on the subject.

JuliusCaesar

My original post about Project Dunkelfeld stated that there are a great many men whose sexual orientation is towards children or young teenagers, but who are horrified by their urges. Project Dunkelfeld was started to treat these men, who were afraid to seek treatment themselves, fearing that they would be arrested even though they had never acted on their desires.

The paedophiles/hebephiles who do believe that children enjoy their attentions, who do not believe that children or young teenagers are traumatised, are much more likely to act on their desires. And, it might be, only come to treatment when forced to, because of having been arrested and sent to Jail.

Both kinds of paedophiles/hebephiles - the ones who are horrified by themselves, and the ones who think it's fine to act on their desires - need treatment.

The point that Project Dunklefeld made was that by treating the inactive men, it is preventative work. And apparently they have been quite successful in treating them. It's interesting that P Dunklefeld does quite a bit of social skills training.

I think (have no evidence) that the ones who are active, who have abused, who deny that what they do IS abuse, are much much harder to treat.

euser1984

I think they need understanding before treatment becomes an option. perhaps an understanding that way they feel is normal for many humans? it's a case of identifying the ones then that have the potential to cause problems for children....often times the reason they can act on these causes thought is because of problems in their own upbringing or enviorment.....blaming them will not fix the problem and certainly not destroying them as a human being for behaving in certain ways.....many parts of a persons personality and behaviour aren't from their own free will originally, we behave in certain ways due to automatic reactions. take tourettes for example.

these people cannot be allowed express themselves this way in society when they do act on that free will but peoples habits can even change to brain trauma or damage. these causes need to be taken into account.

perhaps it's a case of education and awareness that parents and children need to be given, so they can identify people that are willing to take the step towards damaging a victim? once that step is taken a decision should be made as to whether that person needs to be locked up or not....or research into why this person developed in such a way that they made a decision to do what they do.....

JuliusCaesar

Unfortunately, we as a nation, as a society, have an awful track record in protecting the children of the nation, the old, the infirm, the vulnerable. We have scandal after scandal emerging, and yet no money or will to provide proper services for the vulnerable of the land. We do not care about how the present traumas will impact on people in 10 or 20 or 30 years' time. Given the deficits in housing, education, social services, I can't help but think that any sensible intervention for these men and the causes of their abnormal sexuality is down at the bottom of the list and will never make it half-way up.

euser1984

I'm beginning to think that due to populist political ideas coming to fruition and the ability of the internet to allow access to alternative news media (truth non biased is something i'm working on at the moment; in terms of gathering information on certain types of things and not adding opinion pieces; but making it available for independent journalists or independent media outlets).... most the people on the street hate these kind of problems and just want the bloody things dealt with once and for all but everyone is afraid to say anything.....not me though....pm me if you would like more information on getting such sources of information available in a centralized location for independent analysis.

JuliusCaesar

https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201511/sympathy-the-deviant

euser1984

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201511/sympathy-the-deviant

Do you know if there are mainstream media outlets in the country that print this kind of information for the citizens?

JuliusCaesar

https://medium.com/matter/youre-16-youre-a-pedophile-you-dont-want-to-hurt-anyone-what-do-you-do-now-e11ce4b88bdb#.7no1fa53w

YoungRogerian

I only skimmed through but this looks interesting and could potentially be revolutionary. Whatever people think, paedophilia exists as a phenomenon and if we can treat people before it becomes a potential danger then that can only be a good thing. The main problem I see is stigma. I have no doubt there are people there who are paedophiles by inclination but have no desire to harm kids, are they going to put their head above the parapet? Probably not.

JuliusCaesar

YoungRogerian, if you had read the thread... yes, people who have paedophiliac tendencies do seek therapy to overcome it if they are given assurances of confidentiality.

YoungRogerian

I actually did read the thread and was just giving an opinion, no need to be rude.

JuliusCaesar

Er, you said you had skimmed the thread. :rolleyes:

dar100

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Er, you said you had skimmed the thread. :rolleyes:

:):)

YoungRogerian

No. I said I only skimmed through, by which I meant the presentation. That you ASSUMED I meant the thread was you not reading properly. :P In any event, just saying people might be slow to stick their head over the parapet as a paedophile given the hysteria you mentioned.

Is it possible, or likely, as I have seen elsewhere mentioned, that paedophilia is a mental illness and should be treated as?

I am sure the paedophiles don't want to be attracted to childs, but can't help it. Like (and I expect this is danger territory) homosexuals are a deviation from the percieved normal, are peadophiles a similar deviation?

If gambling and alcohol are a disease of the mind, are sex deviations also?

I don't know, but it seems possible to me that it would be an illness that should be treated, and maybe if there was program in place without judgment, they would get help and not offend?

In classical times it was as normal for a person to have a child lover as a same sex lover. I don't know if they were seen as deviant though.

Faith

Oof. That's a big question. I've done quite a bit of research in the area in a previous job, and it does seem that you can trace the origin of the sexual interest in children back to significant events during childhood for many offenders. There are sex offender treatment programs (SOTP), and I imagine a therapeutic focus would involve formulating around the development and maintaining factors of the attraction. But I don't know of any statistics about the success rates of SOTPs, or how possible it is actually reshape someone's sexual orientation. It certainly conjures up uncomfortable images of awful "gay conversion treatments" based on punishment and shame.

I think it would be theoretically possible to help someone who found themselves feeling sexually attracted to children, but it'll be a long time before society in general would be open to such a thing. It would also require a person to be enormously motivated and reflective, and I'm not sure how often that goes hand-in-hand with somebody who can engage in sexual acts with children.

shaunr68

Paedophilia itself is not a crime as far as I'm aware. Acting on these desires however is another matter. I'm sure I've heard cases of individuals who sought medical help in order to prevent them from offending, even to the extent of undergoing voluntary chemical castration.

boombang

Enlightened post I think OP

I heard a very interesting programme on BBC radio 4 describing how research in Germany (I think) has shown a link between such tendencies and being short. The theory seemed to be IRRC that some stress in the womb meant that the child might be developmentally as intended, leading to deviated sexual preferences. Clearly that's not the be all and end all, but it seems to be something.

I think the simplistic view of paedophiles as monsters is totally counter productive and research such as this should be supported.

Faith

Faith wrote: »

Oof. That's a big question. I've done quite a bit of research in the area in a previous job, and it does seem that you can trace the origin of the sexual interest in children back to significant events during childhood for many offenders. There are sex offender treatment programs (SOTP), and I imagine a therapeutic focus would involve formulating around the development and maintaining factors of the attraction. But I don't know of any statistics about the success rates of SOTPs, or how possible it is actually reshape someone's sexual orientation. It certainly conjures up uncomfortable images of awful "gay conversion treatments" based on punishment and shame.

I think it would be theoretically possible to help someone who found themselves feeling sexually attracted to children, but it'll be a long time before society in general would be open to such a thing. It would also require a person to be enormously motivated and reflective, and I'm not sure how often that goes hand-in-hand with somebody who can engage in sexual acts with children.

I have been told, I don't know how truly, that some clinics in Nederlands and maybe other countries, treat it as a mental illness by drugs.

The Black Oil

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057363077

cruizer101

I would think in general people who are paedophiles actually have little choice in who they are attracted to it is just the way their brain is wired, this in no way condones abusive actions of them though.
Any ones we hear of are because they have acted on their impulses either through abuse or viewing porn. There may well be plenty of paedophiles who do not act on their impulses and repress the feelings, but also due to the stigma around it can't seek help in doing this. And it's quite possible if their was more acceptance that it is a condition over which the person has no control ( by this I just mean the attraction not any actual actions ) that more help would be available and this may well actually reduce related crimes.
I know I have heard of convicted ones opting to get chemically castrated, but I doubt others would volunteer for this as they would have to admit to it first.
I do also recall hearing of a child abuse charity which as I recall said they did offer support for some paedophiles, I think it was from the point of view of victims of child abuse who were seeking help to prevent them from doing the same.

Wheety

I remember Louis CK doing a bit on paedophiles before. I know he was up to his own sh1t but that's a different story.

He said if you think about how paedophiles (ones who have acted on their urge) are seen and treated. They are called scumbags, beaten up, spat on and ostracised. They lose their job, their family, their friends. They are seen as the lowest of the low. Abhorrent crime which will ruin your life if caught and will ruin the life of the victim. Sent to prison where you have to be kept away from other prisoners because they want to kill you.

Despite all of that, there are still paedophiles out there who are willing to take on all of that. Imagine how strong their urges are to not be able to stop themselves. Despite knowing how they will be treated they still take that chance.

It is an illness. There should be treatment offered. I'm sure there are people out there fighting their urges all the time. Who don't want to act on this. It would be great if they could talk to someone and receive help. I don't believe homosexuality is a choice and neither is paedophilia. But help needs to be offered to stop people giving into it.