"N6 Galway City Transport Project"

monument

New thread for this "new" project --

http://www.n6galwaycity.ie

munchkin_utd

intelligent decision.

if the problem is
a ) congestion for a few hours in the morning and evening caused by folks using their car to get cross town to work
and
b) no viable alternative to using the car to get across town to work, which is arguably the cause of problem (a) in the first place
then.....
providing or at least investigating a viable alternative (by public transport/ busways or whatever) to get people across town to work at peak times quickly and comfortably and reducing the cars on the currrent by pass is surely as reasonable an answer to the problems as speeding up the car commute by building a 300million euro outer by pass.

Iwannahurl

munchkin_utd wrote: »

if the problem is
a ) congestion for a few hours in the morning and evening caused by folks using their car to get cross town to work
and
b) no viable alternative to using the car to get across town to work, which is arguably the cause of problem (a) in the first place
then.....
providing or at least investigating a viable alternative (by public transport/ busways or whatever) to get people across town to work at peak times quickly and comfortably and reducing the cars on the currrent by pass is surely as reasonable an answer to the problems as speeding up the car commute by building a 300million euro outer by pass.

According to documentation made available at the "N6 Galway City Outer Bypass Project Office" last year, and now accessible somewhere on the "N6 Galway City Transport Project" website, there are a number of issues "worthy of further study":

Initial examination of the transportation issues in Galway City and environs has shown that the following are worthy of further study and analysis:

• Congestion on routes in the city; -
• Journey time unreliability due to uncertain quantum of delay; -
• Journey time variability throughout the day; -
• Peak hour traffic delays; -
• By-passable traffic is in conflict with internal traffic; -
• Inadequate transport links to access markets within the city; -
• Inadequate transport connections from Galway onwards to Connemara, and -
• Lack of accessibility to the Western Region as a whole.

When the old GCOB scheme was still on the table, it was claimed that the bypass was needed as a bypass. Perhaps three items on the above list are compatible with that view.

However, it needs to be asked what is creating congestion on routes in the city, and why (as well as which) internal traffic conflicts with "by-passable traffic".

One major cause of such congestion is school traffic, According to the City Council there is a 25-33% increase in traffic on certain routes in the city in the morning during the school term. When the schools are off, some of the main routes, normally car-clogged, are totally free-flowing. And the Council's response to this recurring phenomenon? A comprehensive School Travel Plan for the city? No, just the predictable pleading in the local press in advance of the usual back-to-school mayhem. "Won't somebody please do something?" they shriek helplessly.

Meanwhile, the facade slips now and again, and we catch a glimpse of what may well be the real agenda. Last October, a representative of Galway Chamber of Commerce, speaking on Galway Bay FM, described efforts to develop and promote demand management measures (public transport, junction redesign, reallocation of space to walking and cycling, school travel plans etc), though positive, as mere "tinkering". The GBFM interviewer's perspective was that Galway Chamber "need the bodies to come in" (ie want more people to be able to drive into the city) and "the infrastructure is not there to bring the bodies in" (ie the existing roads are clogged with cars, so more roads are needed). Galway Bay FM is a prominent member organisation of Galway Chamber of Commerce.

According to this view, the best way to proceed is the construction of a bypass, so that cross-town and through traffic can be removed in order to make room for bringing more "bodies" into the city in cars, in order to keep the tills ringing.

cgcsb

For 300million, Galway could have a lovely Bus Rapid transit system along 4 corridors. The bypass would be a bit of a waste my comparison and wouldn't be nearly as useful.

Banjoxed

cgcsb wrote: »

For 300million, Galway could have a lovely Bus Rapid transit system along 4 corridors. The bypass would be a bit of a waste my comparison and wouldn't be nearly as useful.

But those who benefit from scattershot housing and consequent road building and car sales will not be happy bunnies. Watch the PR machines crank into action to breath foul air over that concept.

antoobrien

cgcsb wrote: »

For 300million, Galway could have a lovely Bus Rapid transit system along 4 corridors. The bypass would be a bit of a waste my comparison and wouldn't be nearly as useful.

BRT will not solve the fact that all the east-west city-traffic is being funnelled through this area.

antoobrien wrote: »

Iwannahurl

antoobrien wrote: »

BRT will not solve the fact that all the east-west city-traffic is being funnelled through this area.

Ah, the auld triangle.

Is it clogged up with traffic during the peak tourism months, by any chance?

As it is during, say, September to December and January to June?

antoobrien

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Ah, the auld triangle.

Is it clogged up with traffic during the peak tourism months, by any chance?

As it is during, say, September to December and January to June?

Yup.

Iwannahurl

antoobrien wrote: »

Yup.

Really?

So AADTs -- and traffic delays -- are the same throughout the summer as when the schools are off?

Any source for that?

antoobrien

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Really?

So AADTs -- and traffic delays -- are the same throughout the summer as when the schools are off?

Any source for that?

Mark I human eyeball.

Iwannahurl

antoobrien wrote: »

Mark I human eyeball.

Yup, so much better than data.

antoobrien

munchkin_utd wrote: »

providing or at least investigating a viable alternative (by public transport/ busways or whatever) to get people across town to work at peak times quickly and comfortably and reducing the cars on the currrent by pass

What bypass? There's no way for traffic to avoid the centre of Galway.

lucernarian

This thread does read like many others about the GCOB scheme. Regarding alternatives, can anybody tell me what minor infrastructural works can be undertaken? Can a bridge or relief road be built here and there? Regarding schools and car-driving habits, the data referred to here suggests that a quarter to third reduction in motorised traffic results in congestion almost vanishing. I'm guessing that Galway has a higher proportion of car usership than other Irish cities but how much of an improvement can be expected in the near future?

Even though bad planning seems to be a factor, the congestion problems in Galway seem to be particularly awful for a city of its size. Even if big ticket road projects in Galway are opposed by some, is it fair to do so when clearly the vast majority of elected representatives have made it clear they would support the GCOB?

There are situations like the M1 and proposed M7 widening to 6 from 4 lane roads where I wonder if better public transport could be supplied instead of supplying wider motorways to be filler by commuters. But there is simply *nowhere* and no way to go from southern Connemara and the Spiddal Road to get to the east except over the Quincentennial (sp?) Bridge or Galway city centre. And that "bypass" often surrounded by residential areas and comes within 1km of Galway's most historic and cultural area. It was clearly poorly thought out and done on the cheap where at least Ray Burke's little Swords Bypass provided some pedestrian overpasses although for a strategic route with primarily through-way traffic. The Swords Pavillion was only built when the M1 Swords was near opening.

It might or might not need a €300M scheme but Galway being such a chokepoint for regional traffic of all types is a big problem.

One other thing, are upgrades possible to the Seamus Quirke road that can make it much safer for pedestrians and cyclists and also cater for truck and tractor usage? All while allowing for efficient bus transport that will be superior to other Irish cities?

I don't have any very strong opinions on the "right outcome", the above is meant to promote discussion not a battle!

cgcsb

antoobrien wrote: »

BRT will not solve the fact that all the east-west city-traffic is being funnelled through this area.

No but a reliable BRT system complimented by park and ride would reduce all traffic in the City.

Iwannahurl

lucernarian wrote: »

1.This thread does read like many others about the GCOB scheme.

2. Regarding schools and car-driving habits, the data referred to here suggests that a quarter to third reduction in motorised traffic results in congestion almost vanishing.

3. Even though bad planning seems to be a factor, the congestion problems in Galway seem to be particularly awful for a city of its size. Even if big ticket road projects in Galway are opposed by some, is it fair to do so when clearly the vast majority of elected representatives have made it clear they would support the GCOB?

4. But there is simply *nowhere* and no way to go from southern Connemara and the Spiddal Road to get to the east except over the Quincentennial (sp?) Bridge or Galway city centre.

5. It might or might not need a €300M scheme but Galway being such a chokepoint for regional traffic of all types is a big problem.

1. Yes, indeed. The same arguments go round in circles until they get stuck, like traffic on one of Galway's tribal roundabouts.

2. The effect on traffic congestion when the schools are off is well-recognised, but imo there is major denial as to its implications. Bypass enthusiasts simply do not want to know, or attempt to dispute what we can see with our own Mark I eyeballs. This quote neatly describes the phenomenon:

I love the summer - no traffic jams to work.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055368765

TBH I don't know what the actual AADTs are, but it's the City Council itself that states the 25-33% figure. And yet, are you aware of any concerted attempt anywhere in the city over the past 20 years (or since the supposedly significant year of 1986) to produce a comprehensive school travel plan for a single school, never mind for a Local Area or the entire city? If you do, please let me know.

3. A majority of elected representatives supported the original bypass as proposed, and the ECJ ruling showed definitively that they were all wrong. For decades a majority of voters in this "republic" voted for a certain party and their policies. Look where that got us.

4. The "N6 Galway City Transport Project" claims that "by-passable traffic is in conflict with internal traffic". What is the nature and extent of that internal traffic? Where is the "by-passable" traffic heading, and why? What is the nature and extent of traffic coming in along the Spiddal/Barna Road? What studies, making use of technologies such as ANPR, have been carried out? And why is there still no Park & Ride on the west side of the city (or anywhere, come to think of it)? Why is there no congestion charge or other Demand Management mechanism in place? Why has ribbon development and "one-off" building (aka measles development) not been controlled?

5. I had direct experience of "chokepoints" this morning, because, suffering a bout of laziness after a late start following poor sleep due to minor illness last night, I decided to use the car for the 3 km school run. As I turned the corner out of the estate (Galway-style impermeable cul-de-sac) I saw that the main road was clogged with stationary cars. I knew from experience that the tailback was at least 1.3 km long, and that the kids would be late for school if I stayed in line. So I did a u-turn and took another route. As I did so, I saw a line of traffic, slow but moving steadily, extending back at least another kilometre. On my alternative route I encountered another line of slow-moving traffic, extending a kilometre or so to a roundabout, where the traffic became free-flowing. I got to school on time.

My guess is that if you interviewed every single driver in each queue of cars, a majority would identify the lack of a bypass as the cause of the traffic congestion and the provision of a bypass as the solution. According to this perspective, traffic is other people, and the way to deal with "chokepoints" is to create more road space for cars.

Iwannahurl

cgcsb wrote: »

No but a reliable BRT system complimented by park and ride would reduce all traffic in the City.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that there is no permanent Park & Ride. Certainly there is none on the west side of the city.

Public transport, including high-capacity and efficient services such as BRT, have been sorely (I would say deliberately) ignored for decades. With regard to ordinary local bus services, I heard recently that the residents of one large housing estate have been waiting 30 years for a bus shelter. It can take years to propose, agree, plan, design and construct a simple bus shelter.

Every day I pass by a shelterless bus stop where school-children have to stand in cold wet weather, while those doing the pick-up by car park unhindered on the footpath beside them, with the engine running and the heater on. To me these sights, replicated all over the city and being remedied in a piecemeal fashion at a glacial pace, are emblematic of the way that people who don't travel by car are treated like second-class citizens.

antoobrien

cgcsb wrote: »

No but a reliable BRT system complimented by park and ride would reduce all traffic in the City.

P&R has been trialled in Galway for general commuting and failed spectacularly.

The only realistic P&R is the one run up to christmas - to get shoppers in that won't come to Galway otherwise.

lucernarian

Iwannahurl wrote: »

1. Yes, indeed. The same arguments go round in circles until they get stuck, like traffic on one of Galway's tribal roundabouts.

2. The effect on traffic congestion when the schools are off is well-recognised, but imo there is major denial as to its implications. Bypass enthusiasts simply do not want to know, or attempt to dispute what we can see with our own Mark I eyeballs. This quote neatly describes the phenomenon:



TBH I don't know what the actual AADTs are, but it's the City Council itself that states the 25-33% figure. And yet, are you aware of any concerted attempt anywhere in the city over the past 20 years (or since the supposedly significant year of 1986) to produce a comprehensive school travel plan for a single school, never mind for a Local Area or the entire city? If you do, please let me know.

3. A majority of elected representatives supported the original bypass as proposed, and the ECJ ruling showed definitively that they were all wrong. For decades a majority of voters in this "republic" voted for a certain party and their policies. Look where that got us.

4. The "N6 Galway City Transport Project" claims that "by-passable traffic is in conflict with internal traffic". What is the nature and extent of that internal traffic? Where is the "by-passable" traffic heading, and why? What is the nature and extent of traffic coming in along the Spiddal/Barna Road? What studies, making use of technologies such as ANPR, have been carried out? And why is there still no Park & Ride on the west side of the city (or anywhere, come to think of it)? Why is there no congestion charge or other Demand Management mechanism in place? Why has ribbon development and "one-off" building (aka measles development) not been controlled?

5. I had direct experience of "chokepoints" this morning, because, suffering a bout of laziness after a late start following poor sleep due to minor illness last night, I decided to use the car for the 3 km school run. As I turned the corner out of the estate (Galway-style impermeable cul-de-sac) I saw that the main road was clogged with stationary cars. I knew from experience that the tailback was at least 1.3 km long, and that the kids would be late for school if I stayed in line. So I did a u-turn and took another route. As I did so, I saw a line of traffic, slow but moving steadily, extending back at least another kilometre. On my alternative route I encountered another line of slow-moving traffic, extending a kilometre or so to a roundabout, where the traffic became free-flowing. I got to school on time.

My guess is that if you interviewed every single driver in each queue of cars, a majority would identify the lack of a bypass as the cause of the traffic congestion and the provision of a bypass as the solution. According to this perspective, traffic is other people, and the way to deal with "chokepoints" is to create more road space for cars.

I don't know what possessed you to number what are in some cases random sentences. I used paragraphs to distinguish different discussion points I raised. I asked specific questions and it's up to you or anyone else to answer but there's no point in trying to address a specific poster by almost having a conversation with yourself by taking bits and pieces from my own reply.

I do apologise for being combative but it's frustrating when I ask 4 fairly straightforward questions and I see one answer and snippets of different points being addressed with anecdotes and more questions. FWIW I accept your point concerning elected representatives but it is a more empirical method of assessing public support for the project directly.

I await what responses you have to my actual questions with interest but I also want to highlight "point" 4. Is what I said a matter of truth or not? What have traffic studies, ANPR, Park and Rides and ribbon development got to do with if there is a non-city-centre route available for land-based modes of transport? I'm not from Galway and there are other people better qualified to deal with AADTs. The map by antoobrien seems to confirm the point and I'm looking for an alternative view. I can take it for granted that various types of traffic do use the national routes and the Spiddal Road without wanting to stop in Galway as I've made such journeys in cars. I don't see why all or even some of those questions need to be answered to specify what needs to be done to make "by-passable" traffic have safer (and quicker if possible) journeys. Questions about the nature and extent of that traffic do need to be answered to determine the correct measures. But you say that the Transport Project claims that bypassable traffic is in conflict with internal traffic but isn't that a little perjorative? I see that as a factual assertion owing to the map that antoobrien showed, highlighting an absence of a safely engineered route for HGV, truck, tractor and bus traffic that might not be stopping in Galway. In any other town and city I know in Ireland, weight limits exist to protect road surfaces, pedestrians and other road users from the direct impacts of these vehicles and also the noise and environmental pollution associated with them. But that doesn't seem to be an option here due to there being no route that avoids the urban core in the first place!

Again, it may not need a €300 million bypass but what do posters here feel is the correct way to solve this specific issue?

I made similar points before about the N2 Slane Bypass and while most here accept it's completely unfit for modern traffic, some argued that alternative routes do exist (e.g. M1 Drogheda) and a weight limit/HGV ban should be used. In the case of Galway, what's the alternative route?

cgcsb

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that there is no permanent Park & Ride. Certainly there is none on the west side of the city.

Not now, but we were speaking hypothetically.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Public transport, including high-capacity and efficient services such as BRT, have been sorely (I would say deliberately) ignored for decades. With regard to ordinary local bus services, I heard recently that the residents of one large housing estate have been waiting 30 years for a bus shelter. It can take years to propose, agree, plan, design and construct a simple bus shelter.

Every day I pass by a shelterless bus stop where school-children have to stand in cold wet weather, while those doing the pick-up by car park unhindered on the footpath beside them, with the engine running and the heater on. To me these sights, replicated all over the city and being remedied in a piecemeal fashion at a glacial pace, are emblematic of the way that people who don't travel by car are treated like second-class citizens.

Completely agree. Fortunately there is some change in the winds. The NTA has taken responsibility for the bike scheme (Despite efforts by GCC to sabotage it) and bus services. Clearly Galway City, and County Councils are not to be trusted with transport planning. The City transport project will be managed quietly and effectively from an office in Dublin far from the parish pump.

cgcsb

antoobrien wrote: »

P&R has been trialled in Galway for general commuting and failed spectacularly.

The only realistic P&R is the one run up to christmas - to get shoppers in that won't come to Galway otherwise.

That's because park and ride, as a stand alone measure, is doomed to failure in virtually every small City in the world. A strategy needs to be in place that does two things
1)make public transport much more convenient
2) making driving into the City Centre much less convenient

It doesn't do any good to offer park and ride when there is piss cheap parking in the City Centre.

KevR

cgcsb wrote: »

That's because park and ride, as a stand alone measure, is doomed to failure in virtually every small City in the world. A strategy needs to be in place that does two things
1)make public transport much more convenient
2) making driving into the City Centre much less convenient

It doesn't do any good to offer park and ride when there is piss cheap parking in the City Centre.

I don't agree with item number 2.

It's clutching at straws to say the least. If that is our solution to Galway's transport issues, we will never see an improvement. Just to point out also that making driving and parking more expensive simply discourages people on lower incomes. It makes life easier for those who can well afford it as they now have less competition. In turn, they will probably drive more frequently so you will see no reduction overall.

Item number 1 is spot on. Make it so convenient and seamless to use so that it can compete with other modes of transport on its own merits.

There was a thread previously on the Galway City board about the lack of buses over the Quincentenary Bridge. The absolute bottom line is that they have no reason whatsoever to not trial it. If they have resources (buses and subsidy) to do a Christmas P&R, they have the resources to try a West-East commuter route over the QB avoiding the City Centre.

KevR

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that there is no permanent Park & Ride. Certainly there is none on the west side of the city.

Public transport, including high-capacity and efficient services such as BRT, have been sorely (I would say deliberately) ignored for decades. With regard to ordinary local bus services, I heard recently that the residents of one large housing estate have been waiting 30 years for a bus shelter. It can take years to propose, agree, plan, design and construct a simple bus shelter.

Every day I pass by a shelterless bus stop where school-children have to stand in cold wet weather, while those doing the pick-up by car park unhindered on the footpath beside them, with the engine running and the heater on. To me these sights, replicated all over the city and being remedied in a piecemeal fashion at a glacial pace, are emblematic of the way that people who don't travel by car are treated like second-class citizens.

I suggest you write to the NTA and/or local councillor asking if a bus shelter can be insalled and a proper pick up / drop off area be built so illegal parking ceases. It would be good if everyone could be catered for. There is no need for anyone to be treated like second class citizens.

KevR

I always find it odd that funding can be found for rural greenways which will be largely low traffic tourist routes, for example the Galway - Moycullen greenway.

All the while there never seems to be any money to spend on hectic urban commuter routes.

Iwannahurl made a point about new bus shelters being introduced at a snails pace, I presume this is due to limited funding..

LXFlyer

Bus shelters are erected by Adshel under contract to Bus Eireann.

Get in touch with Bus Eireann and see what they can do.

Iwannahurl

cgcsb wrote: »

It doesn't do any good to offer park and ride when there is piss cheap parking in the City Centre.

KevR wrote: »

I don't agree with item number 2.

It's clutching at straws to say the least. If that is our solution to Galway's transport issues, we will never see an improvement. Just to point out also that making driving and parking more expensive simply discourages people on lower incomes. It makes life easier for those who can well afford it as they now have less competition. In turn, they will probably drive more frequently so you will see no reduction overall.

That is the real reason for the failure of P&R. Why would anyone other than the most dedicated or principled opt for P&R when they can drive into the city centre and park cheaply or even for free most of the time?

They can even park illegally for free, most of the time. Galway City Council's parking control operation, feeble as it is, focuses mainly on Motor Tax and expired Pay & Display tickets.


Another example is the Park & Stride scheme, which 'encourages' parents to stay away from (or drive past) their children's school, using a sticker to get "free" parking in certain designated areas. Why would they bother? Nobody is paying for parking on the school run anyway, and even the ones parked illegally (on footpaths being a hugely popular choice, among motorists at least) get away scot free day after day.


The only way to make Park & Ride work is to make it economically and practically more attractive than driving into the city centre. There is no political will to make that happen.

cgcsb

KevR wrote: »

I don't agree with item number 2.

It's clutching at straws to say the least. If that is our solution to Galway's transport issues, we will never see an improvement. Just to point out also that making driving and parking more expensive simply discourages people on lower incomes. It makes life easier for those who can well afford it as they now have less competition. In turn, they will probably drive more frequently so you will see no reduction overall.

Item number 1 is spot on. Make it so convenient and seamless to use so that it can compete with other modes of transport on its own merits.

There was a thread previously on the Galway City board about the lack of buses over the Quincentenary Bridge. The absolute bottom line is that they have no reason whatsoever to not trial it. If they have resources (buses and subsidy) to do a Christmas P&R, they have the resources to try a West-East commuter route over the QB avoiding the City Centre.

Making driving less convenient is a consequence of improving public transport, more road space for bus lanes and cycle lanes = less road space for cars. You can't have 1 without 2

monument

cgcsb wrote: »

Making driving less convenient is a consequence of improving public transport, more road space for bus lanes and cycle lanes = less road space for cars. You can't have 1 without 2

Sometimes you can, but more to the point maybe is that one of them (the driving less convenient part) is just a byproduct of the other (improving things for other modes of transport), it should not be a central goal in itself.

Iwannahurl

The whole purpose of the bypass, aka "the only show in town", was (is?) to make driving more convenient. The claim was/is that a bypass would remove "cars that don't want to go anywhere near the city" and "commuter and personal traffic that does not want or need to go through the City, but has no choice", thereby improving driving condition for cars that do "want" or "need" to be in the city.


An additional selling point, still being repeated, is that a bypass would free up space for public transport, walking and cycling. The idea was/is that motorists get their bypass first, then the other modes can be catered for.


I believe this is a flawed and possibly even dishonest premise. It is also environmentally unjust, and likely to be counterproductive.


A "bypass" will free up more road space within the city, by removing commuter traffic as well as "by-passable traffic", which will make driving around town more convenient, not less. In my opinion, it is simply not plausible to suggest that (a) people will suddenly switch from car commuting to walking, cycling and public transport once free-flow driving conditions are achieved, and (b) that the powers that be will suddenly feel compelled to at last cater properly for congestion-busting modes of travel, after the traffic congestion has been relieved by the construction of a bypass.


What would be the motivation in each case, when chronic traffic congestion is not enough to encourage modal shift at present? Are we really expected to believe that people will feel less like driving when using a car will be a lot less hassle in a supposedly congestion-free post-bypass situation? Pull the other one, I say.


In any case, if "commuter and personal traffic that does not want or need to go through the City" is removed, where are the commuters going to come from who will provide the customer base for the expansion of bus services, for example?

Iwannahurl

monument wrote: »

Sometimes you can, but more to the point maybe is that one of them (the driving less convenient part) is just a byproduct of the other (improving things for other modes of transport), it should not be a central goal in itself.

Are you opposed to road pricing/congestion charging?


Or is it more about the focus, and presentation, of transport projects?

Mrs OBumble

lxflyer wrote: »

Bus shelters are erected by Adshel under contract to Bus Eireann.

Get in touch with Bus Eireann and see what they can do.

Not in Galway they're not.

The City Council has signed up a different company to provide 'em here. Ref: http://search.galwaycity.ie/GeneralNews/MainBody,5877,en.html

There have been a couple of waves of installation, but there are still many many stops with no shelter at all.

Mrs OBumble

antoobrien wrote: »

P&R has been trialled in Galway for general commuting and failed spectacularly.

The only realistic P&R is the one run up to christmas - to get shoppers in that won't come to Galway otherwise.

Ahh, c'mon antoobrien, you know full well that the airport P&R was poorly thought out: not frequent enough buses, didn't call to industrial estates, badly publicised, and running from a badly chosen site which just happened to be conveniently unused.

Arguably, you could say that the Chamber of Commerce supported a scheme that was doomed to fail, just so they could say "we tried, it doesn't work".

The only good thing about it was that it provided a regular bus service for residents in the Carnmore Cross area, something they didn't have before or since.

Banjoxed

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The whole purpose of the bypass, aka "the only show in town", was (is?) to make driving more convenient. The claim was/is that a bypass would remove "cars that don't want to go anywhere near the city" and "commuter and personal traffic that does not want or need to go through the City, but has no choice", thereby improving driving condition for cars that do "want" or "need" to be in the city.


An additional selling point, still being repeated, is that a bypass would free up space for public transport, walking and cycling. The idea was/is that motorists get their bypass first, then the other modes can be catered for.


I believe this is a flawed and possibly even dishonest premise. It is also environmentally unjust, and likely to be counterproductive.


A "bypass" will free up more road space within the city, by removing commuter traffic as well as "by-passable traffic", which will make driving around town more convenient, not less. In my opinion, it is simply not plausible to suggest that (a) people will suddenly switch from car commuting to walking, cycling and public transport once free-flow driving conditions are achieved, and (b) that the powers that be will suddenly feel compelled to at last cater properly for congestion-busting modes of travel, after the traffic congestion has been relieved by the construction of a bypass.


What would be the motivation in each case, when chronic traffic congestion is not enough to encourage modal shift at present? Are we really expected to believe that people will feel less like driving when using a car will be a lot less hassle in a supposedly congestion-free post-bypass situation? Pull the other one, I say.


In any case, if "commuter and personal traffic that does not want or need to go through the City" is removed, where are the commuters going to come from who will provide the customer base for the expansion of bus services, for example?

Much and all as I would like to see enhanced public transport in any Irish context, any bypass of Galway would be in keeping with decades of cute hoor planning where the Galway hinterland and further afield consists of scattershot housing.

It is no wonder that 1. Any attempt to reconfigure public transport in the West to lead town style planning gets opposed and
2. Folks wet themselves over potential motorways
And therefore
3. Vested interests in scattershot planning have too much to lose by encouraging improved public transport.

That's my logic anyway.

spacetweek

The bypass is needed in order to enable long-distance motorists to avoid Galway. Apart from that, it will have no noticeable impact on congestion in the city. It will not sort out city-city journeys or suburb-city.
It must be accompanied by a major reorganisation of road space to add bus and cycle lanes to all distributor roads, a big increase in bus frequency, and odds and ends like shelters.
It must be accompanied by a serious effort at enforcement of traffic and parking laws.
Longer term it must be accompanied by restrictions in the building of one-offs in the countryside.

lucernarian

spacetweek wrote: »

The bypass is needed in order to enable long-distance motorists to avoid Galway. Apart from that, it will have no noticeable impact on congestion in the city. It will not sort out city-city journeys or suburb-city.
It must be accompanied by a major reorganisation of road space to add bus and cycle lanes to all distributor roads, a big increase in bus frequency, and odds and ends like shelters.
It must be accompanied by a serious effort at enforcement of traffic and parking laws.
Longer term it must be accompanied by restrictions in the building of one-offs in the countryside.

Sounds reasonable. Are there any ways to make the building of any new roads cheaper? E.g. lower spec / narrower width?

Iwannahurl

spacetweek wrote: »

1. The bypass is needed in order to enable long-distance motorists to avoid Galway. Apart from that, it will have no noticeable impact on congestion in the city. It will not sort out city-city journeys or suburb-city.

2. It must be accompanied by a major reorganisation of road space to add bus and cycle lanes to all distributor roads, a big increase in bus frequency, and odds and ends like shelters.

3. It must be accompanied by a serious effort at enforcement of traffic and parking laws.

4. Longer term it must be accompanied by restrictions in the building of one-offs in the countryside.

1. Except the "bypass" is being sold as a solution (indeed, the only solution) to congestion within the city. Additionally, a huge amount of the demand for the bypass is coming from within the city and from people living in "rural" areas on the fringe of the city, ie commuters.

2. Why can't we have bus/cycle lanes, more frequent and reliable bus services, bus shelters, pedestrian crossings, traffic calming etc etc etc now? €30 million would buy an awful lot of that stuff, and €300 million would be utterly transformative (if Galway City Council and other agencies could be trusted to spend it properly).

3. Why can't traffic and parking laws be enforced now? Some of the laws have been in place for decades, and don't require a €300 million budget to enforce.

4. Why can't "one-offs" be restricted now? Of course, it's too late to deal with the many thousands of "one-offs" already in existence, which will be forever generating traffic in the "rural" hinterland of Galway City.


EDIT: Just found this while perusing old Boards comments on the original bypass proposal.

"A bypass would take at least 80% of those cars out of this area [Kirwan/Bodkin Roundabout etc] and allow a much better public transport system to operate." ~Frank Fahey TD, April 2010.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzemTC_JsGU

lucernarian

Iwannahurl wrote: »

1. Except the "bypass" is being sold as a solution (indeed, the only solution) to congestion within the city. Additionally, a huge amount of the demand for the bypass is coming from within the city and from people living in "rural" areas on the fringe of the city, ie commuters.

2. Why can't we have bus/cycle lanes, more frequent and reliable bus services, bus shelters, pedestrian crossings, traffic calming etc etc etc now? €30 million would buy an awful lot of that stuff, and €300 million would be utterly transformative (if Galway City Council and other agencies could be trusted to spend it properly).

3. Why can't traffic and parking laws be enforced now? Some of the laws have been in place for decades, and don't require a €300 million budget to enforce.

4. Why can't "one-offs" be restricted now? Of course, it's too late to deal with the many thousands of "one-offs" already in existence, which will be forever generating traffic in the "rural" hinterland of Galway City.


EDIT: Just found this while perusing old Boards comments on the original bypass proposal.

"A bypass would take at least 80% of those cars out of this area [Kirwan/Bodkin Roundabout etc] and allow a much better public transport system to operate." ~Frank Fahey TD, April 2010.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93868568&postcount=18

I'm still waiting for your responses, though I suspect they will be numbered and will arbitrarily break up the points I make.

I think the "why can't" questions are better directed at the powers that be. If they're not rhetorical. I really don't think some posters on Boards can answer you when it's a decision that Galway City Council or the NTA or the Gardaí or the Dept. of the Environment or the NRA are all variously better placed to answer.

Also many of those proposals are worth exploring and indeed prioritising, especially the enforcement of parking laws. But if people feel forced to leave their cars at home on the school run, more people and kids will automatically be using the other modes to get there. That does imply that other measures would have to be carried out at the same time. E.g. improved bus frequencies and freeing up more road space for cyclists etc.

The first point you make is just a perception, really. I don't live in Galway and I don't really know what it's being sold as or being sold to. I don't think it's important to consider now that the ECHR has knocked the current plan on the head. It won't change the overall merits of various alternative plans. Every piece of the puzzle has to be carefully adjusted to let the other pieces fit in, as I crudely showed in my previous paragraph.

Either a new route for through-traffic and HGVs etc from outside Galway and not stopping there is needed, or it's not. If all the routes pass through residential/central areas, what is an acceptable level of trucks etc using them? If another route is needed, what kind of route is needed? Just because people might want to hijack a project to further their own agenda, doesn't make a project itself bad!!

Iwannahurl

lucernarian wrote: »

Just because people might want to hijack a project to further their own agenda, doesn't make a project itself bad!!

I'm interested in the opinions of other posters regarding the questions I posed. Some were at least partly rhetorical, ie I see no reason why illegal parking cannot be enforced now, and why school traffic (responsible for 25-33% of traffic on key routes) cannot be tackled now, especially since it has not been tackled for many decades.

If you want to know my opinion on specific issues just ask some specific questions.

As for a "hijacked" project not being intrinsically bad, what matters is the outcome. Use determines function, so a "good" project is one that cannot be hijacked or otherwise misused.

lucernarian

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I'm interested in the opinions of other posters regarding the questions I posed. Some were at least partly rhetorical, ie I see no reason why illegal parking cannot be enforced now, and why school traffic (responsible for 25-33% of traffic on key routes) cannot be tackled now, especially since it has not been tackled for many decades.

If you want to know my opinion on specific issues just ask some specific questions.

As for a "hijacked" project not being intrinsically bad, what matters is the outcome. Use determines function, so a "good" project is one that cannot be hijacked or otherwise misused.

I did. But as I explained here, numbering some segments of my post and replying to those selectively doesn't make much of a discussion rather than an echo chamber. We'd all end up talking to ourselves. In my last big reply, the third paragraph onwards had a few questions.

Iwannahurl

lucernarian wrote: »

I did. But as I explained here, numbering some segments of my post and replying to those selectively doesn't make much of a discussion rather than an echo chamber. We'd all end up talking to ourselves. In my last big reply, the third paragraph onwards had a few questions.

Let me know if your questions below, and my answers, are complete:

Regarding alternatives, can anybody tell me what minor infrastructural works can be undertaken?

Why minor? €30 million, never mind ten times that sum, would provide a massive amount of serious infrastructure to facilitate, and provoke a modal shift to, public transport, walking and cycling. For instance, how much would it take to fix this junction, to focus on just one junction among hundreds that has never been modified, despite being on a route to several schools?

Can a bridge or relief road be built here and there?

Perhaps, but why? Bridges and roads, in this country and elsewhere, are primarily supply-side measures intended to facilitate private motor vehicles. That does not reduce car use, car dependence and traffic generation -- in fact the opposite is the case.

Regarding schools and car-driving habits, the data referred to here suggests that a quarter to third reduction in motorised traffic results in congestion almost vanishing. I'm guessing that Galway has a higher proportion of car usership than other Irish cities but how much of an improvement can be expected in the near future?

Expected? Not a lot, given (a) that there isn't much political will to do so, (b) the car habit is now deeply ingrained, and (c) many people are hoping the bypass will fix the problem without anyone having to change their behaviour, ie using the car for ~70% of trips, or more in some areas. A lot more could be achieved, but there has been no proper effort made to tackle the school travel issue in decades, or ever in fact. Why bother, when there's a holy grail that will magic it all away? You may not like anecdotes, perhaps, but here's one anyway. I once tried to reason with a Garda sergeant about the need to enforce parking regulations, around schools and other locations, where there is a direct link between lack of parking control, traffic congestion and danger to children walking and cycling. She had no intention of doing so, and one of her excuses was "we need a bypass". It's as if any serious effort to curb car use and car dependence, and to stop the inevitable squeezing out of other modes, is only permissible once the Big Prize (a shiny new road for car commuters) is awarded first.

Even though bad planning seems to be a factor, the congestion problems in Galway seem to be particularly awful for a city of its size. Even if big ticket road projects in Galway are opposed by some, is it fair to do so when clearly the vast majority of elected representatives have made it clear they would support the GCOB?

Answered previously, by the ECJ.

One other thing, are upgrades possible to the Seamus Quirke road that can make it much safer for pedestrians and cyclists and also cater for truck and tractor usage? All while allowing for efficient bus transport that will be superior to other Irish cities?

The SQR has already been modified, with the addition of bus lanes, despite the reluctance of some in City Hall and elsewhere. Dire predictions that it would grind to a halt have proved false. People sitting in cars still grumble that "empty" buses are passing them by, but perhaps that kind of thinking could be analysed in another suitable forum. Galway City could do with a HGV management strategy, and has needed one for many years. None has been forthcoming. Why? My guess: "we'll have a look at it when we get our bypass." Meanwhile I encounter HGVs every morning while doing the school run by bike.

What have traffic studies, ANPR, Park and Rides and ribbon development got to do with if there is a non-city-centre route available for land-based modes of transport?

Because the complex problem of traffic congestion needs to be studied properly in order to devise sustainable solutions. Some of the more voluble bypass advocates have claimed that "80%" of traffic could be removed from The Auld Triangle referred to earlier. Such bypass enthusiasts really don't care where that traffic is coming from, where it is going, who the car occupants are or why they are in cars in the first place. From this perspective the solution to traffic congestion is more road space for cars. And when that road space fills up, build another road. Simple, really.

But you say that the Transport Project claims that bypassable traffic is in conflict with internal traffic but isn't that a little perjorative?

What exactly is pejorative? It's one of the main planks of the pro-bypass lobby. However, the conflict in question must be analysed in great detail to see what exactly is occurring. It is not enough to refer to x AADT on route A and y AADT on route B, and to show that the two traffic streams are in conflict. What is the precise nature of the traffic mix on each route, why is it there in the first place, and what can be done to reduce the traffic volume, so that the conflict is mitigated? TTBOMK no detailed figures have been published showing precisely the origins and destinations of "bypassable" and "internal" traffic. Leaving aside the huge issue of work travel, I have argued repeatedly that the relief in traffic congestion which occurs without fail when the schools are off gives us a big hint with regard to what could be achieved by a comprehensive Transportation Demand Management strategy. If the right people got the job and there was a budget of €300 million, what could be achieved?

Again, it may not need a €300 million bypass but what do posters here feel is the correct way to solve this specific issue?

TDM for starters. Unfortunately, nothing substantial has been tried. Ever. Even the €25 million Smarter Travel Plan, which I'm told is still policy, and about which some are highly sceptical, remains on hold. The "N6 Galway City Transport Project" is supposed to study all viable alternatives, but I'll believe that when I see it.

I made similar points before about the N2 Slane Bypass and while most here accept it's completely unfit for modern traffic, some argued that alternative routes do exist (e.g. M1 Drogheda) and a weight limit/HGV ban should be used. In the case of Galway, what's the alternative route?

The term "alternative route" presupposes that the primary solution will be a new bridge and a new road. That may or may not be the case, ultimately. I would argue that much of the emphasis on finding an alternative "route" is from people who still believe that a bypass is "the only show in town". In my book, that is not indicative of a serious attempt at considering alternative solutions.

munchkin_utd

lucernarian wrote: »

This thread does read like many others about the GCOB scheme. Regarding alternatives, can anybody tell me what minor infrastructural works can be undertaken? Can a bridge or relief road be built here and there? Regarding schools and car-driving habits, the data referred to here suggests that a quarter to third reduction in motorised traffic results in congestion almost vanishing. I'm guessing that Galway has a higher proportion of car usership than other Irish cities but how much of an improvement can be expected in the near future?
<snip>

firstly, the outer by pass is not a soluion anyhow, as it will not have the junctions to enable commuters go to the industrial areas on the west of the city.
So, its 300 million to solve commuter congestion, that doesnt solve commuter journey times or congestion.
Youre essentially saying that conemara people going to Dublin or Limerick, once taken out of the city, will leave the roads empty for people to get across town quickly and easily at rush hour.

anyhow, youre going to need a range of measures, something along the lines of
- express busses cross town at peak times from west side to GMIT/ industrial areas.
- more bus lanes, traffic lights to give priority to busses and where possible dedicated bus roads where needed.
- inprove the river crossing for busses. Possibly eeking out an extra central lane for busses by dropping the wide cyclepaths (eastbound for morning peak, westbound for evening- a concept to be found occasionally abroad where peaks are directional).
- investigate a new public transport river crossing near the cathedral, i.e. where the old railway bridge once ran (and abutments still stand) with dedicated bus lane to the headford roundabout, so east west busses could bypass the centre but still serve the hospital/ UCG and justify their existance with passenger numbers.

you could go on with other ideas like this, and if done as a whole you'd link up Galway city much better and be more useful to galway city residents than a €300 million Connemara expressway will.

Iwannahurl

munchkin_utd wrote: »

firstly, the outer by pass is not a soluion anyhow, as it will not have the junctions to enable commuters go to the industrial areas on the west of the city.
So, its 300 million to solve commuter congestion, that doesnt solve commuter journey times or congestion.
Youre essentially saying that conemara people going to Dublin or Limerick, once taken out of the city, will leave the roads empty for people to get across town quickly and easily at rush hour.

I think this requires much greater attention. There may actually be a case for a true bypass, but many people seem to believe that what they need, and what they are getting, is a ring/relief road.

I see two problems with this:

1. If it's a true bypass, then the anticipated relief effect on intra-city traffic will encourage more car use, not less. This is the expectation of Galway Chamber of Commerce, for example. The rhetoric about more space for public transport etc is just carrot-dangling and box-ticking, imo.

2. If it's not to be used as an actual bypass, then one of its main functions will be to re-route commuter traffic around the city. This will have the effect of undermining policy objectives to reduce car use and car dependence and bring about a major modal shift to public transport, walking and cycling. Plus it will free up more road space within the city for more car use, much to the delight of Galway City Council (parking charges and fines) and Galway Chamber (tills ringing).

veryangryman

Iwannahurl wrote: »

2. If it's not to be used as an actual bypass, then one of its main functions will be to re-route commuter traffic around the city. This will have the effect of undermining policy objectives to reduce car use and car dependence and bring about a major modal shift to public transport, walking and cycling. Plus it will free up more road space within the city for more car use, much to the delight of Galway City Council (parking charges and fines) and Galway Chamber (tills ringing).

Less cars on the roads in the city mean more cars in the car park? Really?

Id be quite sure that with the extra available space, the city would use it for cycling lanes/bus lanes, maybe even Gluas if the economy improved enough.

Iwannahurl

Not necessarily the same cars.

Galway Chamber equate cars with the sound of cash registers ringing, and their own campaign for the bypass is built on the premise that getting 'unwanted' traffic out of the city will make space for new cars to come in.

I'd be quite sure that the extra space will not be used for bus lanes etc.

More to the point, where will the passengers come from?

Right now the biggest disincentive to car use is traffic congestion, which is why motorists and various vested interests are complaining about it all the time.

Are we really expected to believe that once "80%" of the traffic is removed from city centre roads that (a) people will suddenly stop wanting to use their cars and (b) that there will be hordes of commuters waiting to pack all the new buses?

Can you please explain that scenario to me, in detail?

Padkir

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I made similar points before about the N2 Slane Bypass and while most here accept it's completely unfit for modern traffic, some argued that alternative routes do exist (e.g. M1 Drogheda) and a weight limit/HGV ban should be used. In the case of Galway, what's the alternative route?

The term "alternative route" presupposes that the primary solution will be a new bridge and a new road. That may or may not be the case, ultimately. I would argue that much of the emphasis on finding an alternative "route" is from people who still believe that a bypass is "the only show in town". In my book, that is not indicative of a serious attempt at considering alternative solutions.

So, in other words, you have no alternative route.

veryangryman

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Right now the biggest disincentive to car use is traffic congestion, which is why motorists and various vested interests are complaining about it all the time.

Reminds me of a quote from Futurama...Nobody drives a car in New York. Too much traffic!

Iwannahurl

Padkir wrote: »

So, in other words, you have no alternative route.

No comprendo.

Though their repeated use of the terms "N6" and "route" indicates that their main focus is on road-building, the "N6 Galway City Transport Project" consultants are required by the legal process to consider all possible alternatives and to assess their viability.

That may or may not mean a new bridge/road, so an "alternative route" is just one of several possible solutions. And presumably whatever "alternative solutions" are ultimately chosen may be adopted singly or in combination. Such an all-eggs-in-one-basket approach is not good, from my perspective -- see above and various threads in the Roads forum.

Iwannahurl

veryangryman wrote: »

Reminds me of a quote from Futurama...Nobody drives a car in New York. Too much traffic!

Which reminds me of a story in The Onion: "98 Percent Of US Commuters Favor Public Transport For Others".

spacetweek

veryangryman wrote: »

Id be quite sure that with the extra available space, the city would use it for cycling lanes/bus lanes, maybe even Gluas if the economy improved enough.

Never mind Gluas. That would be hugely overscaled for a city the size of Galway. The only reason people talk about that is because creating a proper bus network sounds like it would take space away from cars and motorists don't like that. A luas would presumably be built away from roads so people could continue driving everywhere.

Iwannahurl

I don't think that true about the "Gluas" idea. I'm not an advocate of the proposal, but that's only because I haven't studied it and so I don't feel I have an informed opinion.

However, I understand that

• There are dozens of towns/small cities in Europe, of a similar size to Galway, that are successfully using light rail
• Light rail would attract more passengers because it has a higher status and a greater level of customer satisfaction than buses
• Consequently "Gluas" would be expected to entice people out of their cars
• Gluas would run along existing routes, not "away from roads".

I'm open to correction on any or all of the above, especially the last point.

cgcsb

spacetweek wrote: »

Never mind Gluas. That would be hugely overscaled for a city the size of Galway. The only reason people talk about that is because creating a proper bus network sounds like it would take space away from cars and motorists don't like that. A luas would presumably be built away from roads so people could continue driving everywhere.

GLuas would take the sam/more space away from road users in central Galway because it requires a large amount of segregation from car traffic to achieve it's optimum frequency. In Dublin we're in the process of radically reducing the amount of space available to cars through various measures:

Luas BXD
Increased pedestrianisation, foot path widening, cycle lanes etc.
On Pearse Street there's now a double bus lane, i.e. a regular bus lane and an overtaking bus lane.

No doubt the NTA would like to do similar in Galway but then there is the obsticle of Galway City Council.

cgcsb

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I don't think that true about the "Gluas" idea. I'm not an advocate of the proposal, but that's only because I haven't studied it and so I don't feel I have an informed opinion.

However, I understand that

• There are dozens of towns/small cities in Europe, of a similar size to Galway, that are successfully using light rail
• Light rail would attract more passengers because it has a higher status and a greater level of customer satisfaction than buses
• Consequently "Gluas" would be expected to entice people out of their cars
• Gluas would run along existing routes, not "away from roads".

I'm open to correction on any or all of the above, especially the last point.

Agreed, an obsticle to Gluas, aside from the large capital cost is poor planning. Cities in more advanced parts of Europe expanded in line with development plans where by a local authority requires a number of new homes/business, they select a development zone based on geographical convenience and ease of service provision and they build at a suitable density that will accommodate growth well into the future, while simultaneously providing supporting infrastructure. Here we just build houses in any old place and expect everyone else to fork out for bypasses and broadband.