FBD - Not Quoting Non-National License Holders

ironclaw

I usually champion FBD as an insurer of choice (I have numerous accounts with them across the board) but yesterday on a renewal on behalf of a friend I was rather surprised by their response. Apparently, even if you are on a full EU license, no points or claims with experience, they won't quote you unless you drive a 2010 car or newer. This has been in effect since September 2014. Absolutely no issue in quoting myself on a much older card as I hold a full Irish license.

Has anyone had experience of this or with other insurers? Not wishing to play the discrimination card but surely you cannot penalise a driver for holding a license from another EU country. Is their a favorable insurance company for foreign drivers here?

Atlantic Dawn

Most likey the lack of penalty points being currently transferable to non Irish licences has flagged a high risk to that group and so they are unwilling to quote.

ironclaw

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Most likey the lack of penalty points being currently transferable to non Irish licences has flagged a high risk to that group and so they are unwilling to quote.

True enough but the person in question has 2 years own experience here, and 5 years at home (Which can't be counted here) and no penalty points here (Again, easy to prove) or at home (Can also be proven) Also, no history of claims in either country.

I just thought it was interesting the year you have to be above. Is it excluding a certain demographic given the price range you have to hit to be in a 2010 or higher.

CiniO

ironclaw wrote: »

True enough but the person in question has 2 years own experience here, and 5 years at home (Which can't be counted here)

You mean 5 years no claims driving history at home country?
Why can't it be counted here?
I do understand FBD might not wish to accept it, but there is surely plenty of insurers who will.

and no penalty points here (Again, easy to prove)

Not easy at all. How would you imagine FBD could check it?

or at home (Can also be proven)

Again - how?

Also, no history of claims in either country.

Is no history of claims the same thing as no claims history?

listermint

Never rated FBD myself. too many rules anything over 2.5 thats a petrol engine is like satan took a dump on their door.


Awful insurer.

faral

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Most likey the lack of penalty points being currently transferable to non Irish licences has flagged a high risk to that group and so they are unwilling to quote.

Afaik thats not true-actually they hold a special database for foreign licenses and you must provide the license when paying a fine and number is taken at the same time.

faral

ironclaw wrote: »

Has anyone had experience of this or with other insurers?

I was let down by Zurich, they've quoted me a decent premium but as fast as I mentioned my eu license they said no.Anyway there are good few insurers out there so I can find always something good.

Atlantic Dawn

faral wrote: »

Afaik thats not true-actually they hold a special database for foreign licenses and you must provide the license when paying a fine and number is taken at the same time.

Yes but insurance companies have no access to this special database.

OP if they have 2 years driving experience here why don't they just exchange their licence for an Irish one?

ironclaw

faral wrote: »

I was let down by Zurich, they've quoted me a decent premium but as fast as I mentioned my eu license they said no.Anyway there are good few insurers out there so I can find always something good.

Actually we found the opposite. Premiums are exactly double what it would cost on an Irish license with the same credentials. So its the license that is the issue.

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

OP if they have 2 years driving experience here why don't they just exchange their licence for an Irish one?

Couple of reasons but my chief one would be principal. Working and living in Ireland, but spending a considerable amount of time abroad working and at home, you can't expect people to be swapping and changing licenses within the EU.

Bottom line in my book is a person with nigh on 10 years of experience (2 in their name, and 8 or so 'named') with absolutely no points / record in various countries over the age of 30 is paying over a €1000 to be insured just because their license has another EU member state on it. I feel there is something extremely discriminatory about that.

dr.fuzzenstein

I can't find any info now, but I seem to remember the insurance ombudsman telling me that an EU license has to be accepted and the driver's premium cannot be loaded. This happened when some refused to quote me and others wanted to load my premium by 25%. Quoting the relevant legislation will usually fix this situation rather quickly. I'd check with them. Could well be that the insurance companies are up to their usual tricks, gouging people and to hell with the law.

ironclaw

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I can't find any info now, but I seem to remember the insurance ombudsman telling me that an EU license has to be accepted and the driver's premium cannot be loaded. This happened when some refused to quote me and others wanted to load my premium by 25%. Quoting the relevant legislation will usually fix this situation rather quickly. I'd check with them. Could well be that the insurance companies are up to their usual tricks, gouging people and to hell with the law.

Thanks fuzz. I definitely remember someone here quoting that case law or something similar. Obviously it could differ here and perhaps they can clause it as 'well we can quote what we like as its our business and we decide who we insure' but if anyone finds it or can link it, I'd be very grateful.

coylemj

The insurance companies can simply say that the person is a transient worker and as such, they are considered a higher risk. I believe Irish people looking for insurance in the UK have the same issue. It does not appear to be based on race, religion or the other illegal grounds for discrimination so the practice probably is legal.

Spook_ie

Easy fix, you're resident in Ireland get an Irish license, you're not resident in Ireland insure the car in the country you are resident in

H3llR4iser

I'd be really surprised if this is legal in any way - the whole point of the EU license is exactly that it is EU, meaning it has the same validity across all the Union's countries. Loading double premium, as most Irish insurers do, is not acceptable full stop. Many insurers started this practice exactly when the gender equality rules came into fruition - essentially they found an alternative cash cow.

OP, check with AA - they have no problem whatsoever with my own EU license.

Yakuza

The missus has a Spanish licence, Aviva don't seem to mind (but she can't get the "no penalty points" discount, which is fair enough).

So much for FBD's "No nonsense" policy as that's exactly what the position by the OP (must have a car > 2010) is.

ironclaw

coylemj wrote: »

The insurance companies can simply say that the person is a transient worker and as such, they are considered a higher risk. I believe Irish people looking for insurance in the UK have the same issue. It does not appear to be based on race, religion or the other illegal grounds for discrimination so the practice probably is legal.

Very true but the person in question here is living and working in Ireland for a number of years, definitely not transient. Family in the UK have no issue living and working on Irish licenses.

Spook_ie wrote: »

Easy fix, you're resident in Ireland get an Irish license, you're not resident in Ireland insure the car in the country you are resident in

No, not an easy fix. We're all part of the EU and share a common platform of standards. If someone wishes to keep a small part of their national identity, I think its fair enough and they shouldn't be penalised for it. Any call of 'simple tests or worse drivers' should be met with a realization that most people holding foreign licenses have been here, claim and history free, for many years. Hence that idealogy is false and I feel a loading, of more than double in this instance, is border line discriminatory.

dr.fuzzenstein

Yakuza wrote: »

The missus has a Spanish licence, Aviva don't seem to mind (but she can't get the "no penalty points" discount, which is fair enough).

So much for FBD's "No nonsense" policy as that's exactly what the position by the OP (must have a car > 2010) is.

Funny you should say no nonsense. They're my insurer and have no issue whatsoever with my German license.

Spook_ie

ironclaw wrote: »

Very true but the person in question here is living and working in Ireland for a number of years, definitely not transient. Family in the UK have no issue living and working on Irish licenses.



No, not an easy fix. We're all part of the EU and share a common platform of standards. If someone wishes to keep a small part of their national identity, I think its fair enough and they shouldn't be penalised for it. Any call of 'simple tests or worse drivers' should be met with a realization that most people holding foreign licenses have been here, claim and history free, for many years. Hence that idealogy is false and I feel a loading, of more than double in this instance, is border line discriminatory.

Really, well my license says I live at such n such an address in Ireland, where does someones Spanish/Romanian/German/ EU license say they live

ironclaw

Spook_ie wrote: »

Really, well my license says I live at such n such an address in Ireland, where does someones Spanish/Romanian/German/ EU license say they live

It gives their address in their home country. What are you getting at? A touch of xenophobia?

Its irrelevant. The person lives and pays taxes in this great country of ours and has a PPS to prove it. What difference does it make what their driving license address say? If you are saying a Garda won't know where they live, fair enough, I'm sure a sundry check of some other documentation would suffice in all instances. Tax and Insurance records to name just a few, all of which are accessible by the Gardai if such doubt exists.

Stheno

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Funny you should say no nonsense. They're my insurer and have no issue whatsoever with my German license.

No nonsense is a subsidiary of fbd

Spook_ie

ironclaw wrote: »

It gives their address in their home country. What are you getting at? A touch of xenophobia?

Its irrelevant. The person lives and pays taxes in this great country of ours and has a PPS to prove it. What difference does it make what their driving license address say? If you are saying a Garda won't know where they live, fair enough, I'm sure a sundry check of some other documentation would suffice in all instances. Tax and Insurance records to name just a few, all of which are accessible by the Gardai if such doubt exists.

Surely by now there must be an equivalent to Godwin's Law for the first person to mention Racism/Xenophobia in a thread.

No I just think that if a license says Permanent Address then that means what it's supposed to mean, not that people are just keeping up an EU license from another country to avoid penalty points being applied.

Yakuza

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Funny you should say no nonsense. They're my insurer and have no issue whatsoever with my German license.

FBD is the parent company of No Nonsense.

This is a sample from their (increasingly bizarre and annoying) advertisement campaign from a few years ago)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxEmobpqK3k

ardmacha

ironclaw wrote: »

No, not an easy fix. We're all part of the EU and share a common platform of standards. If someone wishes to keep a small part of their national identity, I think its fair enough and they shouldn't be penalised for it. Any call of 'simple tests or worse drivers' should be met with a realization that most people holding foreign licenses have been here, claim and history free, for many years. Hence that idealogy is false and I feel a loading, of more than double in this instance, is border line discriminatory.

But the EU hasn't really got its act together. Licence use throughout the EU should mean points throughout the EU and exact similar treatment for all offences, this does not exist nor does it even seem to be planned.

BreadnBuddha

I don't see the issue the OP or their friend has with exchanging their license. It has nothing to do with 'national identity'. That's a load of cobblers.

If your friend lives and works in Ireland, drives an Irish registered car, pays Motor Tax on it and wants to avail of an Irish market insurance product and any available discounts, just exchange the license.

It's a simple solution. Their EU license can be exchanged easily for an Irish one and the problem becomes a non-issue. It's a problem of their own making.

ironclaw

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

It's a simple solution. Their EU license can be exchanged easily for an Irish one and the problem becomes a non-issue. It's a problem of their own making.

And what about the police force in their home State? They don't want to see a citizen of their country on a foreign license. So for someone who may go home 3 or 4 times a year, it becomes an issue. Spanish cops are especially strict on this. Just because someone is tax resident in a country does not mean they have to give up every last shred of ID of their home country.

Do you think its fair someone should be charged more than double based on the fact they hold a license for a member state? If coming from outside the EU, I'd say say fair enough, but inside. No. I don't believe its fair.

BreadnBuddha

ironclaw wrote: »

And what about the police force in their home State? They don't want to see a citizen of their country on a foreign license. So for someone who may go home 3 or 4 times a year, it becomes an issue. Spanish cops are especially strict on this. Just because someone is tax resident in a country does not mean they have to give up every last shred of ID of their home country.

Do you think its fair someone should be charged more than double based on the fact they hold a license for a member state? If coming from outside the EU, I'd say say fair enough, but inside. No. I don't believe its fair.

Rubbish. Lots of hypothetical blah blah blah.

Get an Irish driving license. It's a form, photo and fee if you have an EU license and you're done. No more problems.

It also means no more evasion of declaring points for a motoring offense to an insurer.

dr.fuzzenstein

Stheno wrote: »

No nonsense is a subsidiary of fbd

Exactly, my in-sewer-ants was renewed just now and there was no issue with my "fordeign" license.

dr.fuzzenstein

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Rubbish. Lots of hypothetical blah blah blah.

Get an Irish driving license. It's a form, photo and fee if you have an EU license and you're done. No more problems.

It also means no more evasion of declaring points for a motoring offense to an insurer.

Really there is no such thing. Its an Irish EU license, the same as my is a German license is an EU license.
That's the whole point of the EU. I am entitled by law to drive here on my license, I can't be refused insurance over it and my premium can't be loaded. This is just the thieving bastards of the insurance companies playing thick and ignorant whilst robbing people.

The fact that the administration can't figure out how to handle points on an EU wide basis is not my problem. In the meantime I'm sticking with my Fuehrerschein, ta all the same.

robtri

if he is here for two years, surely he should be on an irish licence already, once u take up residency u have 12 months to change it to an irish licence
maybe that something to do with it

ardmacha

ironclaw wrote: »

And what about the police force in their home State? They don't want to see a citizen of their country on a foreign license. So for someone who may go home 3 or 4 times a year, it becomes an issue. Spanish cops are especially strict on this. Just because someone is tax resident in a country does not mean they have to give up every last shred of ID of their home country.

The Spanish police have no business regulating what licence an Irish resident should hold, this would be far more outrageous than anything FBD are doing.

BreadnBuddha

robtri wrote: »

if he is here for two years, surely he should be on an irish licence already, once u take up residency u have 12 months to change it to an irish licence
maybe that something to do with it

No, that applied to holders of a license from outside of the EU. Legally, there's no requirement to exchange an EU license. That doesn't mean an insurer is discriminating against other license holders when they fail to hold an Irish license. If an insurer uses penalty points and the related offences as a factor in their risk assessment, yet you refuse to obtain an Irish license, why shouldn't they refuse your business?

For example, if you have been banned for drink driving or dangerous driving in another EU state, you MAY be unable to exchange it for an Irish license. Likewise, a phantom Irish license may have 9 or 10 points on it, but those won't hit a searchable driver record on the RSA database. Either of those could be obvious reasons why someone won't exchange their EU license, or can't. In each case an Irish insurer would have legitimate reason to decline cover on accordance with their own policies.

Why should they take the risk and use the premium paid by Irish license holders to underwrite an undisclosed risk indicator?

It's business. Nothing to do with national identity. That's what your passport grants you and NOBODY is suggesting that you should change your citizenship. It's a permit to drive and a means to record any offences you commit behind the wheel.

unkel

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

It's business. Nothing to do with national identity. That's what your passport grants you and NOBODY is suggesting that you should change your citizenship. It's a permit to drive and a means to record any offences you commit behind the wheel.

+1

Until we all have an identical EU license, this is the deal. If you refuse to convert your license to an Irish one, you are a higher risk according to the insurer's statistics, so you pay a higher premium.

CiniO

Few points from me.

1. Insurers are private companies established to make profit, and they are using any excuse to rise someone's premium on imaginary risk assessment factors which has nothing to do with any risk. That's a fact, and unless Irish government decide to regulate it somehow, they'll keep doing it. Nearly all insurance companies customers in Ireland are being screwed one way or another. Every excuse is good for them.

2. My experience isn't actually to bad in relation to coming from other EU country. I moved permanently to Ireland from Poland around 2007/2008 and insurer I used then (Hibernian - currently Aviva) had no problem accepting my NCB from Poland. Indeed they charged me more because I had Polish licence, but when I swapped it for Irish one, they gave me discount for 0 penalty points (something they couldn't give me on Polish licence) so I was happy enough.

3. Problem of people who keep their foreign licences to avoid penalty points - well. I don't really understand why this problem exists in the first place. There's nothing stopping Irish authorities to issue Irish penalty points to foreign licence holders who are resident in Ireland. And there is nothing stopping Irish Government, from banning Irish residents on foreign licences who exceed 12 points in Ireland, same as they do with Irish licence holders. Why Irish government don't do it - I don't know.

ironclaw

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Why should they take the risk and use the premium paid by Irish license holders to underwrite an undisclosed risk indicator?

Because we can forward a statement from the home state insurer (Actually Axa in this case) that indicates a clean record in all regards, yet the Irish insurers choose to ignore this. Does that not settle the argument against an undisclosed risk? Its fully disclosed and verifiable, should they wish to do so.

dr.fuzzenstein

unkel wrote: »

+1

Until we all have an identical EU license, this is the deal. If you refuse to convert your license to an Irish one, you are a higher risk according to the insurer's statistics, so you pay a higher premium.

I never paid a higher premium.

unkel

Well then there's no need for you to change your license then to get a cheaper premium, is there

It seems most other people on this thread don't share your experience. Just guessing here but maybe you have a UK license and they have a continental / eastern european one?

dr.fuzzenstein

unkel wrote: »

Well then there's no need for you to change your license then to get a cheaper premium, is there

It seems most other people on this thread don't share your experience. Just guessing here but maybe you have a UK license and they have a continental / eastern european one?

Nope, Führerschein. Modell der Europáischen Geminschaft. It's German. It was valid indefinitely, but now I have just found out it will lapse in 2033. Not panicking yet.
And I also found that as of 19 January 2013 the truly unified European driver's license has been in force, i.e. they're all the same.
Of course this piece of news hasn't quite made it to Ireland yet, it seems, but insurance companies here would dig up statistics that most people involved in accidents wore socks and then charge you a premium for that.
In other countries you get the feeling that insurance companies take all factors into account and then calculate the premium accordingly. Usually you get a bit of loading here and there or you might even be better off.
In Ireland you get the feeling that they just pull an excuse out of their arse so they can load your license with something preposterous like 25 or 50%. It's just any excuse to gouge people.

dr.fuzzenstein

ardmacha wrote: »

The Spanish police have no business regulating what licence an Irish resident should hold, this would be far more outrageous than anything FBD are doing.

I wouldn't fancy living in Spain, they have some of the most outrageous regulations going. Bulldozing houses with planning permission on technicalities, heavily subsidizing solar and then taxing people for having it (with a fine of 2 million Euros for not hooking it up to the grid), the Spanish like to piss on EU regulations.