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Drug driving new laws

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    #302
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Miike wrote: »
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2016/act/21/section/8/enacted/en/html#sec8

    Bottom of the page.

    I think the poster is looking for cut offs for the Dräger, not the statutory limits.


    Yachtcarpenter wrote: »
    Having been breathalised this evening for alcohol, and has been approx 26 hours since I last smoked, I'm keen to get an answer to what the actual cut offs are for cannabis. Was not a pleasant experience considering nowhere actually states what the cut off is for the test machine.

    Gm228 stated on good info it's 5ng/ml, draeger itself states its 5ng/ml, some reports say 1ng/ml and according to drugs.ie they say according to rsa its 10ng/ml

    Can anyone shed light on this as to where this limit is stated, I'm close at this stage to go in to a Garda station and ask as in my view, if a limit is set in law, why is it so hard to find out what the testing kit is testing for (1 to 10ng) is a very large difference.

    Dräger currently only test at 5ng/ml for THC as confirmed by Dräger in their brochure:-

    https://www.draeger.com/Products/Content/drae-00392_drugtest_trifold_final.pdf

    The RSA also confirmed the 5nl/ml limit in their 2012 report on Roadside Drug Testing Equipment.

    https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Campaigns/Anti%2520Drug%2520Driving/MBRS_Roadside_Drug_Testing_Report_2012.pdf

    To get an accurate 5nl/mg test it takes about 8.5 minutes, if the test is shortened to 4 minutes it tests at 10ng/ml - Gardaí are trained to test at 5ng/ml.


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    #303
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #304
    Miike
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Miike


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    One.


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    #305
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    How many tests can the machine process at once?

    One at a time.


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    #306
    Yachtcarpenter
    Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭Yachtcarpenter


    does the 5ng saliva rate correspond to a 5ng blood level?


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    #307
    BaronVon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,647 ✭✭✭BaronVon


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Takes about 8 minutes to process in full.


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    #308
    The Specialist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭The Specialist


    Can't find an answer to this online so will ask here. I've read that for heavy cannabis users (I would be in this category) THC can be present in saliva for up to 3 days after its last smoked.

    In theory, I could smoke a joint tonight, get 8-9 hours sleep and fail the saliva test tomorrow afternoon (which seems to be an arrest on the spot). How is this in any way logical or fair? I could also smoke nothing today or tomorrow and still fail it. Is perceived impairment the key in this case or will they use a bit of common sense? If presence only results in an arrest then this law needs to be torn up and re-examined as soon as possible.


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    #309
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,145 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    The Specialist wrote: »
    Can't find an answer to this online so will ask here. I've read that for heavy cannabis users (I would be in this category) THC can be present in saliva for up to 3 days after its last smoked.

    In theory, I could smoke a joint tonight, get 8-9 hours sleep and fail the saliva test tomorrow afternoon (which seems to be an arrest on the spot). How is this in any way logical or fair? I could also smoke nothing today or tomorrow and still fail it. Is perceived impairment the key in this case or will they use a bit of common sense? If presence only results in an arrest then this law needs to be torn up and re-examined as soon as possible.

    If you fail the roadside saliva then your taken for a blood test, your not in trouble unless you fail the blood test. I don't think a blaze in the evening is going to cause you to fail the blood test, now if your wakeing and baking you probably will.


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    #310
    The Specialist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭The Specialist


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    If you fail the roadside saliva then your taken for a blood test, your not in trouble unless you fail the blood test. I don't think a blaze in the evening is going to cause you to fail the blood test, now if your wakeing and baking you probably will.

    With heavy use,failing the blood test is inevitable. Therefore a person with absolutely no impairment who hasn't smoked in 24 hours can fail both saliva and blood testing. Completely illogical.


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    #311
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,145 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    The Specialist wrote: »
    With heavy use,failing the blood test is inevitable. Therefore a person with absolutely no impairment who hasn't smoked in 24 hours can fail both saliva and blood testing. Completely illogical.

    Yea that's the law. You don't have to be impaired that's not the crime even though it should be. The crime is having it in your blood.


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    #312
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #313
    The Specialist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭The Specialist


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    Yea that's the law. You don't have to be impaired that's not the crime even though it should be. The crime is having it in your blood.

    If that is the case then it is simply unacceptable and cannot be allowed as law. This moves it away from being anything to do with road safety and in to the realm of demonising anybody who uses cannabis. I hope the first person they try and prosecute in such circumstances goes all the way to Europe with it. This country fully deserves a hard kick in the bollix for even contemplating allowing this to be introduced.


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    #314
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,145 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    The Specialist wrote: »
    Can't find an answer to this online so will ask here. I've read that for heavy cannabis users (I would be in this category) THC can be present in saliva for up to 3 days after its last smoked.

    What do you class as heavy use? Actually what is heavy use?


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    #315
    The Specialist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭The Specialist


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    What do you class as heavy use? Actually what is heavy use?

    Personally, 5-6 joints per evening/night which will show presence for up to 30 days. I never ever drive while under influence of it.


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    #316
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #317
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    The Specialist wrote: »
    Personally, 5-6 joints per evening/night which will show presence for up to 30 days. I never ever drive while under influence of it.

    How long would you wait after 5 or 6 joints before you drive? How do you determines whether you are impaired or not?


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    #318
    The Specialist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭The Specialist


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    They are demonising the use of an illegal drug. Perfectly acceptable in their eyes.

    Unacceptable in terms of how they are doing it, I would comfortably say drink driving is of much more danger and importance to road safety than someone with cannabis from 12-14 hours ago in their system.


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    #319
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,145 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    The Specialist wrote: »
    Personally, 5-6 joints per evening/night which will show presence for up to 30 days. I never ever drive while under influence of it.

    5/6 joints is a lot probably no harm re-evaluate the situation, prescription of champix from the doctor and buy yourself a decent vaperioser from the likes of storz and bickel. Save your pocket and lungs a lot of damage.


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    #320
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #321
    The Specialist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭The Specialist


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    How long would you wait after 5 or 6 joints before you drive? How do you determines whether you are impaired or not?

    To answer that you need to understand the effect cannabis has, its effect in most cases is gone after 90 mins. Even after 5-6 joints and 9 hours of sleep, there is absolutely no effect left. A person with a hangover is going to be limited in theit attention on the road, a person who smoked a few joints and had a good sleep is going to be of the same standard as any driver that has not consumed either.


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    #322
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    The Specialist wrote: »
    To answer that you need to understand the effect cannabis has, its effect in most cases is gone after 90 mins. Even after 5-6 joints and 9 hours of sleep, there is absolutely no effect left. A person with a hangover is going to be limited in theit attention on the road, a person who smoked a few joints and had a good sleep is going to be of the same standard as any driver that has not consumed either.

    I just find it interesting that you are using the same arguments I heard from the older generation when they reduced the alcohol limits. I'm curious as to how you know when you are not impaired.


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    #323
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,145 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I pretty sure having cannabis in your system isn't a crime. Our body's are loaded with DMT, if drugs are illegal well then so should being born.
    Drugs should be legal as a basic human right, cannabis has a range of uses, cocaine, lsd, ecstacy should be all legal so they can be used to treat and cure mental health issues, ecstacy is getting very close to being legal in the US.


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    #324
    The Specialist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭The Specialist


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    I just find it interesting that you are using the same arguments I heard from the older generation when they reduced the alcohol limits. I'm curious as to how you know when you are not impaired.

    It is not the same as alcohol and it's disingenous to even try and put it in the same bucket. There is no impairment at all after sleeping, it just does not happen. Now if you are driving after smoking a joint I would say there is impairment but 9-10 hours later following a full nights sleep? Not a bit.


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    #325
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,315 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    The Specialist wrote: »
    Personally, 5-6 joints per evening/night which will show presence for up to 30 days. I never ever drive while under influence of it.
    That is heavy drug use, and if not curtailed will lead to serious mental health issues for you.
    You may wish to consider getting help for your addiction.
    Is there an NA near you?


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    #326
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    The Specialist wrote: »
    It is not the same as alcohol and it's disingenous to even try and put it in the same bucket. There is no impairment at all after sleeping, it just does not happen. Now if you are driving after smoking a joint I would say there is impairment but 9-10 hours later following a full nights sleep? Not a bit.

    But are you basing that on any kind of evidence or on your own experience?


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    #327
    The Specialist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭The Specialist


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    But are you basing that on any kind of evidence or on your own experience?

    I'm sure there are studies online. I know plenty of people who smoke it and their answer would be exactly the same.


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    #328
    The Specialist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭The Specialist


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    That is heavy drug use, and if not curtailed will lead to serious mental health issues for you.
    You may wish to consider getting help for your addiction.
    Is there an NA near you?

    I'm an adult that has no time for patronising attitudes about what I do in my downtime. Thanks for your concern though.


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    #329
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    The Specialist wrote: »
    I hope the first person they try and prosecute in such circumstances goes all the way to Europe with it.

    Under what grounds could soneone bring it to Europe do you think?


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    #330
    The Specialist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭The Specialist


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    But are you basing that on any kind of evidence or on your own experience?

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2722956/
    Detrimental effects of cannabis use vary in a dose-related fashion, and are more pronounced with highly automatic driving functions than with more complex tasks that require conscious control, whereas with alcohol produces an opposite pattern of impairment. Because of both this and an increased awareness that they are impaired, marijuana smokers tend to compensate effectively while driving by utilizing a variety of behavioral strategies.

    Combining marijuana with alcohol eliminates the ability to use such strategies effectively, however, and results in impairment even at doses which would be insignificant were they of either drug alone. Epidemiological studies have been inconclusive regarding whether cannabis use causes an increased risk of accidents; in contrast, unanimity exists that alcohol use increases crash risk. Furthermore, the risk from driving under the influence of both alcohol and cannabis is greater than the risk of driving under the influence of either alone.

    Future research should focus on resolving contradictions posed by previous studies, and patients who smoke cannabis should be counseled to wait several hours before driving, and avoid combining the two drugs.


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    #331
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,315 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    The Specialist wrote: »
    I'm an adult that has no time for patronising attitudes about what I do in my downtime. Thanks for your concern though.

    You're adult who gets wasted every night and then drives the next morning putting everyone around you at risk.
    The fact that you think that going to sleep resets your brain shows how misinformed you are about smoking dope.
    If you're not just joking here then you really do have a problem and you should get help.
    Hopefully the cops will catch you and put you off the road.


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