Drug driving new laws

sitja

Hi guys,
I was having a discussion recently with a friend who is a member of the gardai. He was telling me that in his area they have had no training or anything of such yet. Anyway in the conversation I asked what would happen if a guy was caught with cannabis in his system. Like if a road side test was done and they determined to bring him. Since cannabis can last long in the system. Does that mean if a guy ingested it 3 weeks ago and was still in his system does that mean he can be done for drug driving? My friend wasn't able to give a clear answer and said he never done the tests yet. Any one know anything on this?

Happdog

I thought the test would be performed in the Garda Station and that the only road side test was the breathalyser for alcohol. Section 11 of the 2010 Road traffic act allows the Garda to perform an impairment test:

“A member of the Garda Síochána, for the purposes of forming the opinion that a person in charge of a vehicle in a public place is under the influence of an intoxicant to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of the vehicle, if he or she considers it would assist him or her to form such opinion, may require the person to perform in the presence of the member or another member such impairment tests, in the manner indicated, in accordance with impairment test regulations, by the member or other member in whose presence the test is to be performed.”

So you pass the breathalyser but still appear wrecked, the Garda will ask you to touch your nose and walk a line while juggling . If you fail this test you’re going to the station to take a test. I can’t see how you would end up getting tested if you were not in bad shape.

Having said that I am not sure what happens if you get caught drink driving and when brought to the station they discover cannabis in your system from the week before. Is it zero tolerance or is there a scale. Seems harsh if it was not affecting you’re driving and I am sure that is what the new legislation is aiming to fix.

Little CuChulainn

There is no set limit for drugs in the system like there is with alcohol but the prosecution must prove the presence of drugs as well as an inability to properly control the vehicle.

Pro Hoc Vice

sitja wrote: »

Hi guys,
I was having a discussion recently with a friend who is a member of the gardai. He was telling me that in his area they have had no training or anything of such yet. Anyway in the conversation I asked what would happen if a guy was caught with cannabis in his system. Like if a road side test was done and they determined to bring him. Since cannabis can last long in the system. Does that mean if a guy ingested it 3 weeks ago and was still in his system does that mean he can be done for drug driving? My friend wasn't able to give a clear answer and said he never done the tests yet. Any one know anything on this?

Are you sure your friend is a Garda. Drug driving offences have been law for years and many prosecutions have been taken. But in answer to your question 1 there must be evidence of drugs (legal illegal) provided via a blood or urine test, together with evidence that the driver is incapable of having proper control due to the intoxicant.

InTheTrees

This was a big topic in the debate leading up to the full legalisation of cannabis here in Seattle a few years ago. There's different compounds that they can detect that break down at different rates and that older test that could tell whether you ingested cannabis within the last 30 days was from a very long time ago. 1970's?

There's newer tests available that can tell whether you've ingested it within five or six hours.

sitja

@Pro yeah I am certain. I was referring specifically to the new powers introduced. The pupil dilation test etc. He said his station has not done any training as such for these new methods yet. Driving while intoxicated was obviously in force but the method of determining if a person was intoxicated by using drugs was based on opinion but the new tests can re-enforce the opinion and possibly reduce the time wasted taken a garda off the street (if the person was completely clean). My friend honestly said that if him or his colleagues didnt like the "LOOK" of a guy they would probably take him in even if they had the training and the guy still passed the road side test. That's why I was curious to know how it would stand for a guy that had smoked it a number of weeks previously but it was still in his system. I dont think if a guy smoked it a week or two ago, he would still be intoxicated.

Neuro

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

There is no set limit for drugs in the system like there is with alcohol but the prosecution must prove the presence of drugs as well as an inability to properly control the vehicle.

Is my thinking here correct - you can be prosecuted if:

1. Garadi form an opinion that your driving is impaired because of drugs subsequent to a Roadside Impairment Test, and,
2. The blood/urine test performed by the MRSB shows ANY drug traces, even though they may have been consumed so far in the past that they couldn't possibly impair driving?

I'm surprised that a cut-off (for blood, urine, and saliva) per drug isn't defined as in other jurisdictions.

Little CuChulainn

Neuro wrote: »

Is my thinking here correct - you can be prosecuted if:

1. Garadi form an opinion that your driving is impaired because of drugs subsequent to a Roadside Impairment Test, and,
2. The blood/urine test performed by the MRSB shows ANY drug traces, even though they may have been consumed so far in the past that they couldn't possibly impair driving?

I'm surprised that a cut-off (for blood, urine, and saliva) per drug isn't defined as in other jurisdictions.

Thats basically it. They must prove actual impairment by giving evidence as to poor driving. The court makes an assumption that the two are related. The burden of proof then reverts to the defence to convince the court that the impaired driving was not the result of the drugs.

Clareman

My understanding was as drug taking is illegal that it was a black and white case of if it's in your system you're guilty as you shouldn't have any in your system by law. Alcohol isn't illegal so they have a grade.

Little CuChulainn

Clareman wrote: »

My understanding was as drug taking is illegal that it was a black and white case of if it's in your system you're guilty as you shouldn't have any in your system by law. Alcohol isn't illegal so they have a grade.

Drug taking is not illegal.

Clareman

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Drug taking is not illegal.

True, some drug taking is and there will be some of these tested for.

234

Clareman wrote: »

True, some drug taking is and there will be some of these tested for.

Drug taking is not illegal. Possession, supply, possession with intent to supply, etc are. Taking per se isn't.

Happdog

Just to add to that point if any one is intrested. Hambelton v Callinan is the case on point. Drugs once taken change their properties and can no longer be sold or possessed in a legal sense.

carzony

So Gardai not only have to catch you with drugs in the system but they also need to find evidence that it's effecting your driving?

BaronVon

carzony wrote: »

So Gardai not only have to catch you with drugs in the system but they also need to find evidence that it's effecting your driving?

Yes, what the new law does, as in the OP, it gives Gardaí a range of tests they can perform on the roadside, to determine if the driver

is under the influence of an intoxicant to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of the vehicle

without having witnessed said improper control of the vehicle.

Basically, a stoner drives up perfectly to a checkpoint, talks to the guard. Previous to the new law, the guard wouldn't be able to arrest him, because he has no evidence of improper control of the vehicle.

Now, if said stoner fails the roadside impairment testing, that is sufficient for evidence of improper control of the vehicle, and once any drugs are found in his blood / urine, including some legal drugs (benzo's etc) he'll be going to court!

Carawaystick

carzony wrote: »

So Gardai not only have to catch you with drugs in the system but they also need to find evidence that it's effecting your driving?

yep,
you could be whacked off your head on any drug and walking. there'd be no evidence of driving there.
You could have been abroad and take some Cannabis, the effect from the drug could have worn off completely, but a poorly designed test would indicate residual cannabis in your body
You could have taken a small amount of amphetamines and drive, or followed RSA advice and tanked up on caffeine; or both and the caffeine may affect your driving more.

carzony

So in the past the Gardai could do very little about drug driving then?

Pro Hoc Vice

carzony wrote: »

So in the past the Gardai could do very little about drug driving then?

No, they could form a suspicion and arrest for blood or urine test which could show the presence of drugs. There have been many such prosecutions over the years and is a mandatory 4 year ban.

BaronVon

carzony wrote: »

So in the past the Gardai could do very little about drug driving then?

No, they could, but they had to have evidence of improper control of the vehicle.

The new law allows guards to form an opinion without having evidence of improper driving, and then they can apply the impairment testing. If you fail the impairment tests, you're deemed to have improper control of the vehicle.

It's main application will be at checkpoints, where guards will not have witnessed improper control of the vehicle.

Prior to the new law, guards could still enforce drug driving, but they had to have evidence of improper control of the vehicle first.

Little CuChulainn

carzony wrote: »

So in the past the Gardai could do very little about drug driving then?

Not unless they witnessed some bad driving. But in all honesty, that's not hard to find in this country.

HandoLogan

I am absolutely fuming over this. Looks like relaxing after a hard stressful day with a joint or two will be hindered by the obtuse minded idiots we have elected. There is a legal limit for alcohol, so why is there not a limit to the amount of THC that may be in your system.

I am a regular visitor to Amsterdam for business reasons, where everyone knows it's legal to smoke Marijuana, and when I am there I DO partake. Don't get me wrong here, I am NOT a teenage stoner, I am a married man in my mid 40's who believes it is a lot healthier, physically and mentally to relax with a Joint, rather then cans of beer or spirits.

Am I the only one who finds this to be a violation that has more to do with victimising those people who aren't uptight about a naturally growing plant that has amazing healing qualities.

I am speechless that they are able to get away with this. Certainly, if your driving is impaired and you are a danger to yourself and others, because you have had one joint to many then you should not be driving and you deserve to be prosecuted. But fining and/or imprisoning someone because they have a minute traces of the marijuana in their system even up to two or three weeks later is totally regressive and a prime example of "Backward Ireland strikes again".

Another thing I have to mention here is the fact that the "Saliva testing" for traces of Marijuana are notoriously unreliable, and are not relied upon in the USA and other countries because of this. This will lead to some angry roadside scenes.

What is the cut-off point for the drug tests? In most countries it is a concentration below 50ng./ml. No mention of this of course

I was wondering if a person just flat out refused to give a saliva test stating "That they are notoriously unreliable" (This can be proven) and then refused to provide a urine and blood sample. What would be the outcome? Any legally savvy person out there please get back to me on this issue.

Another aspect of this whole affair that has to be mentioned is the Gardaí, and the potential for victimisation of individuals who the Gardaí consider to potential "Users" based on their appearance, age, etc.

God help anyone who is seen driving a car sporting dreadlocks.

Personally I think this is just another Fine Gael money generating scheme that has the potential to rake in massive amounts of money from those who are unfortunate enough o be "Selected" by the Gardaí for testing. Who the hell wants to spend up to six months in prison ?

What ever the reasons behind this outrageous infringement you can be assured it has NOTHING to do with public safety, and more to do with forcing the Irish people further into Debt slavery, by design.

Little CuChulainn

Dreadlocks? You think the typical marijuana user that Gardaí encounter had dreadlocks? That one line alone makes your post sound ludicrous. But to answer your question, failing to give a sample will likely result in a charge which carries a hefty ban.

Emmo-m-

It's the most ridiculous implementation of a law ever if it passes. So it doesn't test for levels of THC or cannaboids like we do with alcohol to determine whether or not your driving is impaired or you are under the influence.

The test just determines whether or not it is present in your system. So an example of this would be having a joint on a friday evening , driving somewhere the following friday or even longer as it can stay in a persons system longer depending on multiple factors , being tested , result shows it is present in your system , therefore under the influence and facing a ban/fine.

But with alcohol you can have it in your system but as long as it's below a certain level you are still deemed capable of driving. It's ludicrous.

InTheTrees

What about driving impaired on prescription drugs? Thats much more common, how does the new law deal with that?

HandoLogan

Emmo-m- wrote: »

It's the most ridiculous implementation of a law ever if it passes. So it doesn't test for levels of THC or cannaboids like we do with alcohol to determine whether or not your driving is impaired or you are under the influence.

The test just determines whether or not it is present in your system. So an example of this would be having a joint on a friday evening , driving somewhere the following friday or even longer as it can stay in a persons system longer depending on multiple factors , being tested , result shows it is present in your system , therefore under the influence and facing a ban/fine.

But with alcohol you can have it in your system but as long as it's below a certain level you are still deemed capable of driving. It's ludicrous.

Thank you for the first NON-SHEEPLE response to my post. It is ludicrous. It is one step away from giving the Gardaí powers to approach a person they suspect of being a cannabis smoker in the street to demand they take a saliva test and if any THC is found to be present then an on the spot fine and/or arrest is made.

Little CuChulainn

HandoLogan wrote: »

Thank you for the first NON-SHEEPLE response to my post. It is ludicrous. It is one step away from giving the Gardaí powers to approach a person they suspect of being a cannabis smoker in the street to demand they take a saliva test and if any THC is found to be present then an on the spot fine and/or arrest is made.

There's no law proposed that comes anywhere near there to my knowledge. Can you link the law you are referring to?

HandoLogan

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

There's no law proposed that comes anywhere near there to my knowledge. Can you link the law you are referring to?

Do you really think that if the present Government wouldn't if they thought they would get away with it.. Just wait

Little CuChulainn

HandoLogan wrote: »

Do you really think that if the present Government wouldn't if they thought they would get away with it.. Just wait

I'd rather you just link to this new draconian law you refer to.

Pat Mustard

General scheme of Road Traffic Bill 2015

Irish Times

Gardaí will be able to carry out roadside tests on drivers for narcotics under new legislation announced on Tuesday.
Drivers caught with any trace of cannabis, cocaine, or heroin in their system will face a €5,000 fine or imprisonment of up to six months under the Road Traffic Bill 2015.
...

There are also provisions for the arrest of those caught with a high volume of codeine in their system, but an impairment test must be carried out.
At the moment, motorists can only be prosecuted if caught driving recklessly as a result of drug-taking. However the fresh legislation would allow gardaí to pull drivers and conduct a saliva test, followed by a blood test.
...

Minister for Transport Paschal Donohoe said any trace of illicit drugs in the system will be punishable.
...

The Minister admitted that those who have the drugs in their system for more than a week or two could be subject to the new legislation.
He said the focus on drug-driving will not result in neglecting the effort to tackle drink-driving.
...

The legislation will also allow for a lower speed limit of 20km/h to be implemented in residential areas. But it is not mandatory as has been requested by road-safety campaigners.
...

There will also be provisions for the recognition of driver disqualifications between Ireland and the United Kingdom.

MarkAnthony

Why not just get the bus?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Miike

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

So jail everyone who enters these proposed "injection rooms". Would you ever go away and be realistic you troglodyte.



If someone is someone is exposed to cannabis smoke through second hand smoke, with no ill effects on them and they decide to drive home they should be convicted of a drug-driving offence?

As part of my job I enter other peoples homes at every hour of the night, I have no idea what they may or may not have been smoking in the last 20 minutes. I find it hard to see how they propose in managing situations like this? What exactly is "any trace amounts" in quantifiable means and was there any study done on the threshold?

BaronVon

I would be interested in the constitutionality of this law, seeing as we have the right to bodily integrity. Whatever about random breath tests, random mouth swabbing without any pre determined cause, is a far more invasive and intimate process.

I really can't see how the Gardaí will have the resources to enforce it, and how it will work on the roadside either.

MarkAnthony

infacteh wrote: »

I would be interested in the constitutionality of this law, seeing as we have the right to bodily integrity. Whatever about random breath tests, random mouth swabbing without any pre determined cause, is a far more invasive and intimate process.

I really can't see how the Gardaí will have the resources to enforce it, and how it will work on the roadside either.

Driving is a privilidge. You give up some rights to operate the car.

MarkAnthony

Miike wrote: »

So jail everyone who enters these proposed "injection rooms". Would you ever go away and be realistic you troglodyte

Only if they're driving.

Emmo-m-

So is the reasoning from them that just because they are illegal drugs that they do not have to measure the level of the drugs in your body to prove impairment , only that you do in fact have it in your body?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

MarkAnthony

Reading the explanatory notes, it looks like the amended section 26 of the 2010 Act will define the limits of the given oral test. Pretty Irish way about going about things but then... :pac:

ScouseMouse

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

And if you were in Amsterdam the day before?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

ScouseMouse

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

But you mention illegal drugs. If you smoke something in a jurisdiction where they are not illegal, is it fair to be done in ireland where you have not taken anything?

Bongalongherb

The saliva test is the most weed friendly and the easiest to pass. Just give 12-24 hours before driving and folk should be fine.

Marijuana and hash: 12-24 hours
Cocaine: 1 day
Opiates: Up to 2-3 days
Meth and ecstasy: Up to 2 to 4 days.
Alcohol: 6-12 hours

MarkAnthony

Incidently you guys realise Cannabis isn't legal in the Netherlands? So you're not really helping your case by returning to that one.

MarkAnthony

ScouseMouse wrote: »

But you mention illegal drugs. If you smoke something in a jurisdiction where they are not illegal, is it fair to be done in ireland where you have not taken anything?

See above re legality.

However you're being done in Ireland for having it in your system when driving, which will be an offence here.

Keith186

The zero tolerance aspect is very archaic and does not put drug driving laws on a par with drink driving. If it was on a par, it would have some sort of low limit like alcohol does.
Another half arsed bill by a minister that could lead to perfectly sober drivers with trace amounts facing severe penalties.

MarkAnthony

Keith186 wrote: »

The zero tolerance aspect is very archaic and does not put drug driving laws on a par with drink driving. If it was on a par, it would have some sort of low limit like alcohol does.
Another half arsed bill by a minister that could lead to perfectly sober drivers with trace amounts facing severe penalties.

They're not on par becuase Alcohol is legal the other drugs are not. I'm all for total decriminalisation, however that would mean more enforcement like this. Personally I think it's a great first step.

Emmo-m-

Bongalongherb wrote: »

The saliva test is the most weed friendly and the easiest to pass. Just give 12-24 hours before driving and folk should be fine.

Marijuana and hash: 12-24 hours
Cocaine: 1 day
Opiates: Up to 2-3 days
Meth and ecstasy: Up to 2 to 4 days.
Alcohol: 6-12 hours

So marijuana can stay in your blood for up to 30 days depending on the persons body but only in your saliva for 12-24 hours?

So if you pass the saliva test and they still suspect you of being impaired , bring you the station for a blood test , find traces and then charge you from there? Would that fall under the law?

Again the issue seems to be not that they are testing for drug traces causing impairment , but that they seem to have no way of measuring the effect of the traces found on ones driving. Am I any more impaired a week after a joint than i am if I have a bad night sleep and jump in the car still exhausted?

So much for the thought of decriminalising anyway. That was a short lived idea. Back to the stone age we go.

MarkAnthony

Emmo-m- wrote: »

So marijuana can stay in your blood for up to 30 days depending on the persons body but only in your saliva for 12-24 hours?

Dunno

Emmo-m- wrote: »

So if you pass the saliva test and they still suspect you of being impaired , bring you the station for a blood test , find traces and then charge you from there? Would that fall under the law?

The limiting factor is the saliva test. Pass that they can't then take you for a blood test unless you show impairment. (At least thats my interpreation of the explanation that might lead to the bill that will possibly form the legislation.)

Emmo-m- wrote: »

Again the issue seems to be not that they are testing for drug traces causing impairment , but that they seem to have no way of measuring the effect of the traces found on ones driving. Am I any more impaired a week after a joint than i am if I have a bad night sleep and jump in the car still exhausted?

One is illegal the other is not. Driving is a privlidge not a right. It's a proportionate limitation.

Emmo-m- wrote: »

So much for the thought of decriminalising anyway. That was a short lived idea. Back to the stone age we go.

As above I see this as step TOWARDS decriminalisation.

Emmo-m-

MarkAnthony wrote: »

As above I see this as step TOWARDS decriminalisation.

So if it was decriminalised would they then have to measure the effect of the traces found? The same as they do with alcohol at the minute?

It's blatantly in your system but under a limit so your free to carry on in what may be a drunken state depending on the person. But that's ok because alcohol is legal.

Bongalongherb

A blood-test ? I don't think so, but they can have my urine.

MarkAnthony

Emmo-m- wrote: »

So if it was decriminalised would they then have to measure the effect of the traces found? The same as they do with alcohol at the minute?

It's blatantly in your system but under a limit so your free to carry on in what may be a drunken state depending on the person. But that's ok because alcohol is legal.

Many countries have legal alcohol and a zero tollerance policy when driving.

You can be under the drink drive limit and impaired so not safe to drive and that is covered. You can be under the limit and naked climbing the spire, thats covered.

In my Ireland you could be off your tits on extacy dancing with fat culchie chicks in Coppers until 3am just don't drive.