Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

BMMachine

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

You mentioned overwhelming, would you mind giving a number of examples?

Fossil Record.


here, I'll make a deal. Because I have so many examples I'll just give you one at a time so you can focus on convincing yourself that "that isn't true because x" without just throwing a load of them out there for you.

mister gullible

God doesn't exist.
Oh yes he does
Oh no he doesn't.
Oh yes he does.
Oh no he doesn't.

10,030 odd posts and NOBODY KNOWS!! It's all speculation.

BMMachine

mister gullible wrote: »

It's all speculation.

this is the problem. its not speculation. These Christian/Islamic/Hindu/Judaism/Norse stories are just that, stories. It is definite - God as followers of those stories know him does not exist. That is a fact.

mister gullible

BMMachine wrote: »

this is the problem. its not speculation. These Christian/Islamic/Hindu/Judaism/Norse stories are just that, stories. It is definite - God as followers of those stories know him does not exist. That is a fact.

So your common sense tells you (I agree with you as regards all the above superstitions). But outside of our own realm we know nothing. How can we?

BMMachine

mister gullible wrote: »

So your common sense tells you (I agree with you as regards all the above superstitions). But outside of our own realm we know nothing. How can we?

true, and if thats the case then Ryan Tubridy has an equal chance of being God as does the one depicted in the stories

Defender OF Faith

RikuoAmero wrote: »

First, I like to make sure of my own stance. I said it before - I want someone to convince me, to prove me wrong. I like being proven wrong. This doesn't mean though that anyone can recite any old theological argument and expect me to accept it right then and there. No, I will attack that argument and attempt to falsify it is as many ways as possible. If the theist's arguments stand up to as intense a scrutiny as I can throw at it, then they've passed.

This is great and wonderful I think a lot of people nowadays follow their faith blindly, they are Christian because their parents are so, Muslims because their parents are Muslims, however every atheist became so, because he questioned and did not follow the belief he was raised with blindly, which is something I highly respect.

RikuoAmero wrote: »

If the Eden story is true, then Adam and Eve had no choice but to fail. They may well have been told by god to not eat the magic apple, but since they don't know of good or evil before they eat it, how could they know it was "wrong" to eat it? How could they have known not to trust the snake? When god turns up and punishes them, he is punishing them for his own actions - his action in making them innocent and naive.

Before God created Adam, he already decided to place mankind generations after generations on earth, but how was it possible for Adam to have committed such a mistake? The reality was that Adam did not have any experience with the whisperings and ploys of Satan. Adam had seen the arrogance of Satan when he refused to follow the commands of God; he knew that Satan was his enemy but had no familiarity with how to resist Satan’s tricks and schemes.

God tested Adam so that he could learn and gain experience. In this way God prepared Adam for his role on earth as a caretaker and a Prophet of God. From this experience, Adam learned the great lesson that Satan is cunning, ungrateful and the avowed enemy of mankind. Adam, Eve and their descendants learned that Satan caused their expulsion from heaven, and that obedience to God and enmity towards Satan is the only path back to Heaven.

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Second, I am not aware that I actually am taking a test of any kind. In that scenario, the student is fully conscious of and aware of the fact he is at a desk, writing his answers on a desk, and aware of the proctor.

If your an atheist this argument was not for you, instead it was directed at people who already believe in god but think he might be fallible for creating us knowing some of us will make mistakes.

RikuoAmero wrote: »

What if the test was to not use nuclear weapons? Well, the guy who pressed the launch button failed the test, and it was hundreds of thousands of other people who paid the price.

Someone who launches a nuclear weapon, aware of the destruction and death it will bring, will be held responsible in the day of resurrection for every soul that died, and those thousands that perished due to his actions, will receive a compensation as we believe one of the characteristic of God is absolute justice.

BMMachine

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

This is great and wonderful I think a lot of people nowadays follow their faith blindly, they are Christian because their parents are so, Muslims because their parents are Muslims, however every atheist became so, because he questioned and did not follow the belief he was raised with blindly, which is something I highly respect.



Before God created Adam, he already decided to place mankind generations after generations on earth, but how was it possible for Adam to have committed such a mistake? The reality was that Adam did not have any experience with the whisperings and ploys of Satan. Adam had seen the arrogance of Satan when he refused to follow the commands of God; he knew that Satan was his enemy but had no familiarity with how to resist Satan’s tricks and schemes.

God tested Adam so that he could learn and gain experience. In this way God prepared Adam for his role on earth as a caretaker and a Prophet of God. From this experience, Adam learned the great lesson that Satan is cunning, ungrateful and the avowed enemy of mankind. Adam, Eve and their descendants learned that Satan caused their expulsion from heaven, and that obedience to God and enmity towards Satan is the only path back to Heaven.


If your an atheist this argument was not for you, instead it was directed at people who already believe in god but think he might be fallible for creating us knowing some of us will make mistakes.


Someone who launches a nuclear weapon, aware of the destruction and death it will bring, will be held responsible in the day of resurrection for every soul that died, and those thousands that perished due to his actions, will receive a compensation as we believe one of the characteristic of God is absolute justice.

Fossil Record.

RikuoAmero

Adam had seen the arrogance of Satan when he refused to follow the commands of God;

Where is this in the bible, please? There is no mention of the snake saying to Adam "God told me not to eat the fruit too". In fact, the way the story is worded in Genesis, the snake gives the very strong implication that the fruit are forbidden to Adam and Eve only, but that god said it's quite all-right for him to eat it.

he knew that Satan was his enemy

Again, this is before eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Lacking such knowledge, how could Adam even think of the concept of enemy?

Adam, Eve and their descendants learned that Satan caused their expulsion from heaven

Nope, in the story, that is God who does that. It is God who says "Don't eat the fruit" and it is God who says what the penalty will be. There is nothing binding on God for him to actually set that penalty, he could have easily not done it and there would be no-one to tell him otherwise.

and that obedience to God and enmity towards Satan is the only path back to Heaven.

Why is that the only path? If God is truly all-loving, why not wave a hand and have Satan vanish or become good, and just allow people into heaven, without going through the unnecessarily complicated process of living in the mortal world and then dying? What is so special about being obedient?

Someone who launches a nuclear weapon, aware of the destruction and death it will bring, will be held responsible in the day of resurrection for every soul that died, and those thousands that perished due to his actions, will receive a compensation as we believe one of the characteristic of God is absolute justice.

Evidence please. Simply claiming that this entity (whom you have yet to prove exists) has this quality of absolute justice (which you have yet to prove) is not enough. Plus, tell me, what could possibly "compensate" me for my lost life? Pretend I'm one of the Japanese at Hiroshima, pretend I'm a simple office-worker or some other low level job, with no ties to the government or the Japanese war-effort. Suddenly, along comes the American plane with the nuke, wiping me out along with well over a hundred thousand others instantly.
In that instant, my life is over. Ended. Kaput. I have no potential anymore to attempt to do good, or to attempt to find out the truth or to convert to the one true religion.
If you say I would have been allowed into heaven in that scenario, I have to remind you that that is not what the bible says - in many places, it says that only believers in Jesus go there, and as a Japanese person in 1945, it is extremely unlikely I would have even been aware of the christian religion, if I'd heard of it at all.

Before God created Adam, he already decided to place mankind generations after generations on earth,

Then this means I have no reason whatsoever to feel grateful for Jesus "sacrificing" himself for me and mankind. It becomes a situation where God deliberately sets up a fallen earth, only to come down and "fix" it so as to show off how great he is, not an earnest effort by someone to fix a genuine mistake or problem.

mister gullible

BMMachine wrote: »

Fossil Record.

Ronan Collins has all the fossil records :pac:

RikuoAmero

I am sorry I should of stated my position when I mentioned these points, since I am a Muslim and while this thread is in the Christian forum, I did not think it was restricted to them since the debate is about the general existence of God. The basics of creation are very similar between Judaism Islam and Christianity, however we do have differences, what I have said is in line with my belief as a Muslim.

Remind me please - is the Garden of Eden story in islam much the same, if not identical, to the one written in the bible? If so, my points still stand (except for the Jesus being god part of course), if not, tell me what differences there are.

Also, as I've told countless other people before, simply quoting an old book alone is not sufficient evidence for me. That book could have been completely made up, only for everyone else to believe it wasn't. I won't believe that your god exists or, (if he does) that he is just and he will charge people accordingly, simply because an old book says so.
I need more than that.

Defender OF Faith

Reposted on Request

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Where is this in the bible, please? There is no mention of the snake saying to Adam "God told me not to eat the fruit too". In fact, the way the story is worded in Genesis, the snake gives the very strong implication that the fruit are forbidden to Adam and Eve only, but that god said it's quite all-right for him to eat it.

Again, this is before eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Lacking such knowledge, how could Adam even think of the concept of enemy?

Nope, in the story, that is God who does that. It is God who says "Don't eat the fruit" and it is God who says what the penalty will be. There is nothing binding on God for him to actually set that penalty, he could have easily not done it and there would be no-one to tell him otherwise.

I am sorry I should of stated my position when I mentioned these points, since I am a Muslim and while this thread is in the Christian forum, I did not think it was restricted to them since the debate is about the general existence of God. The basics of creation are very similar between Judaism Islam and Christianity, however we do have differences, what I have said is in line with my belief as a Muslim.

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Evidence please. Simply claiming that this entity (whom you have yet to prove exists) has this quality of absolute justice (which you have yet to prove) is not enough. Plus, tell me, what could possibly "compensate" me for my lost life? Pretend I'm one of the Japanese at Hiroshima, pretend I'm a simple office-worker or some other low level job, with no ties to the government or the Japanese war-effort. Suddenly, along comes the American plane with the nuke, wiping me out along with well over a hundred thousand others instantly.
In that instant, my life is over. Ended. Kaput. I have no potential anymore to attempt to do good, or to attempt to find out the truth or to convert to the one true religion.
If you say I would have been allowed into heaven in that scenario, I have to remind you that that is not what the bible says - in many places, it says that only believers in Jesus go there, and as a Japanese person in 1945, it is extremely unlikely I would have even been aware of the christian religion, if I'd heard of it at all

Yes, as Muslims we believe that one of the characteristics of God is justice and that in the day of Judgement no soul will be treated unjustly."And We place the scales of justice for the Day of Resurrection, so no soul will be treated unjustly at all. And if there is [even] the weight of a mustard seed, We will bring it forth. And sufficient are We as accountant"(24:47) We believe that God does not charge a soul except with that within its capacity, those killed unfairly due to the consequences of others will be treated with the uttermost justice and fairness, I cannot determine a compensation as I am not God to decide, similarly those who committed such act out of their own free will knowing the consequences will be punished with accordingly.

Those who had died without knowing God due to the circumstances in their life that prevented them from searching for him, will be treated fairly. Some scholars of Islam say that such people will be presented in front of God and as a test of their obedience to him, will be asked to enter hell fire, and if they obey God and enter it they will find it to be paradise, this is one of the many opinions on the matter but regardless one of the 99 attributes of God is "The Just" and thus every soul will be treated fairly and justly.[/QUOTE]

Defender OF Faith

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Remind me please - is the Garden of Eden story in islam much the same, if not identical, to the one written in the bible? If so, my points still stand (except for the Jesus being god part of course), if not, tell me what differences there are.

I think I pretty much summed up the differences in post number 37.

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Also, as I've told countless other people before, simply quoting an old book alone is not sufficient evidence for me. That book could have been completely made up, only for everyone else to believe it wasn't. I won't believe that your god exists or, (if he does) that he is just and he will charge people accordingly, simply because an old book says so.
I need more than that.

Ah of course I understand as an atheist no scripture is an authority for you, however I was not brining this as an argument to prove to you God existence, but rather as information to show what we believe God to be, as the questions you asked with regard to the bible necessitated me to give my understanding of God which stems from my faith.

RikuoAmero

Defender, I won't debate you on Islamic theology or its mythology at this time, since I don't as of yet have a good understanding of those topics. Due to my heritage, I focused the vast majority of my attention on christianity. Feel free to ask the other commenters though - surely someone among them feels confident to take you on.

Defender OF Faith

BMMachine wrote: »

Fossil Record.

I didn't understand this point properly would you mind elucidating further?

BMMachine

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

I didn't understand this point properly would you mind elucidating further?

for this, I will need to know when you think the Earth was formed. In years, how old is this planet?

homer911

There's a new Ethan Hawke movie out in the states, dont know if it will make it to Ireland, called Predestination - you should take a look if you get the opportunity..

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2015/january-web-only/predestination.html

Defender OF Faith

BMMachine wrote: »

for this, I will need to know when you think the Earth was formed. In years, how old is this planet?

Islam does not have a set position on the actual age of the Earth. The Qur'an does describe the creation of the universe in "six days."Nobody knows the precise period of time and most Muslims accept modern scientific theories about the age of the Earth.

RikuoAmero

homer911 wrote: »

There's a new Ethan Hawke movie out in the states, dont know if it will make it to Ireland, called Predestination - you should take a look if you get the opportunity..

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2015/january-web-only/predestination.html

Just because I'm an evil git, I'm going to spoil the movie. I don't know if it keeps this detail from the story it's based on, but in the original story, every character you see in the movie is the same person, just at different moments throughout their life.
There is only the one character.

BMMachine

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Islam does not have a set position on the actual age of the Earth. The Qur'an does describe the creation of the universe in "six days."Nobody knows the precise period of time and most Muslims accept modern scientific theories about the age of the Earth.

can you tell me, roughly, how long ago you think the earth was formed.

Defender OF Faith

BMMachine wrote: »

can you tell me, roughly, how long ago you think the earth was formed.

approximately 4.54 billion years ago according to the scientists, which I have no reason to reject or object to.

RikuoAmero

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

approximately 4.54 billion years ago according to the scientists, which I have no reason to reject or object to.

I'll chime back in here, since so far, nothing of what's been said in this argument is strictly islamic alone. This very topic and many of the answers I've been given by christians have also been given to me by muslims.
So...great. The earth is approximately 4.54 billion years. You won't find a disagreement from me on that. My question here is - why isn't this mentioned in your holy book? Why does it mention six days? You said before you don't take the six days literally, so that must mean in your mind it's metaphorical or symbolic.
How is it you know that the six days actually is metaphorical/symbolic? If they are symbolic, what about other parts of the quran? How is you've managed to determine which parts are literally true as written, and which are symbolic? (Whenever I ask this of christians, it's always in the form of "You say the Garden of Eden and Noah's flood are just symbolic metaphors, mainly because they physically impossible in the real world - if so, why is it you don't say Jesus's ressurection to be symbolic or a metaphor? In your case, I'll ask why is it that when it comes Muhammed, you believe him to have literally gotten the quran from an angel, or to have flown to heaven on a winged horse (I assume you hold those two to be literally true?))

BMMachine

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

approximately 4.54 billion years ago according to the scientists, which I have no reason to reject or object to.

okay, then why does the bible and all other holy documents preach otherwise? are they wrong?

Defender OF Faith

BMMachine wrote: »

okay, then why does the bible and all other holy documents preach otherwise? are they wrong?

My Christian brothers here, will be better suited to explain what they think or how they interpret this then me.

BMMachine

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

My Christian brothers here, will be better suited to explain what they think or how they interpret this then me.

oh right, so the things in the Bible are to be interpreted and aren't facts?

tommy2bad

BMMachine wrote: »

oh right, so the things in the Bible are to be interpreted and aren't facts?

Some are, some are not, the bible is a collection of books,like a selection from a library. One dosnt even mention God at all! As a collection they each offer some lesson or truth. But we have ploughed this furrow before and yet posters insist that the bible is ment to be taken literally, a position atheism depends on to argue against. A position few believers hold.

BMMachine

tommy2bad wrote: »

Some are, some are not

why? who says?

Defender OF Faith

RikuoAmero wrote: »

I'll chime back in here, since so far, nothing of what's been said in this argument is strictly islamic alone. This very topic and many of the answers I've been given by christians have also been given to me by muslims....
Why does it mention six days? You said before you don't take the six days literally, so that must mean in your mind it's metaphorical or symbolic.

I never said symbolic, anything which is intended to be symbolic is indicated in the Qur'an as such as not to be take literally but for us to reflect and think about/"Such are the parables which We put forward to mankind that they may reflect"/. According to the teachings of Islam. Indeed it is true that the Quran mentions that God created the universe in "six days":

{Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority). He draws the night as a veil over the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession. He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!} (Al-A`raf 7:54)

The word "day" which you read in the verse is a translation of the Arabic word "Yawm" this word is used in Arabic to denote any period, whether extremely long "aeon" or extremely short "moment": its application to an earthly "day" of twenty-four hours is only one of its many connotations.

The foregoing means that in the context of the above verse (7:54), "aeon" is a better translation that suits the context.

In the context of the creation of the universe, the word "day" in the sense of twenty four hours in our reckoning, is irrelevant. This is because we calculate a day on the basis of the earth rotating on its axis taking the duration of a day. So "six days" taken for the creation of the heavens and the earth can only mean six long periods of time or six aeons.

The Qur'an also mentions how a day to God, equates 1000 years when compared to our days, the Day of judgement is described as being a single day which equates 50000 years when compared to our days & time.

As to why God did this in 6 days when God had the power to do it in an instant, we believe that one of the names of God is "The most Wise" God may or may not show this wisdom to us, and those who have deep knowledge may understand it, to the exclusion of others & this is why some scholars have tried to explain the wisdom behind the creation being in 6 days.

RikuoAmero wrote: »

So...great. The earth is approximately 4.54 billion years. You won't find a disagreement from me on that. My question here is - why isn't this mentioned in your holy book?

The age of earth will change over time, since according to you Muhammed wrote the book, it will bring no benefit to include an estimation of the earth age since it's a variable that 'll change overtime.

BMMachine

tommy2bad wrote: »

But we have ploughed this furrow before and yet posters insist that the bible is ment to be taken literally

so, its meant to be taken as suggestion? does it say that anywhere or is it that some of the things are so ridiculous and anti-social that in a modern society that sh*t wouldnt fly but they were perfectly acceptable in say, medieval society.
Sounds like mental gymnastics.

The burden of proof is on you guys to prove God exists, we have all the evidence you could ever want to prove that these are all just stories of a bygone society, whereas you have absolutely no evidence at all that he does other than 'faith', which isn't actually evidence at all, its just something you really really want.

Its like the tide, you can't stop the truth from washing over your old doctrines and showing people that this is a load of nonsense. Think it hasn't happened before? What about the old Gods of Egyptian, Greek and Roman civilisations? All shown up to be nothing more than stories.
The only thing you guys have is numbers and organisation all believing the same myths, theres no actual proof, no facts, no nothing - just people convincing each other and doing mental gymnastics together.

You can't stop the tide and you can't stop the truth It might not be in my lifetime but your 'faith' will be written in the annals of humanity as another folly which led to violence and bloodshed, abuse and corruption with little good to rank alongside it. No amount of your brains activity will change that.


Oh and when God was busy making Super Massive Black Holes, Quasars and cancer, at which points did he decide the following:
*Women are second class citizens
*Homosexuals can't marry
*Condoms aren't allowed for sex
*Eating Fish on a Friday was Holy (he only decided this in the late 19th century when Italian and Spanish fishing fleets were suffering after the Industrial/Agricultural revolution, I think the pope has a big red phone like commissioner Gordon in Batman)
*That a large percentage of Priests will rape children
*That abortions are unholy
*That there will be thousands of other religions with other deities
*That the one book he leaves will be riddled with interpretations and suggestions but he won't say which ones


Your faith will not stop this being true and it won't stop Christianity being an organisation setup to control what some people think is the best way to live.
Thankfully, as I said before, humanity will move on. You can't stop evolution.

Defender OF Faith

BMMachine wrote: »

The burden of proof is on you guys to prove God exists

Forget about the God of Christianity,Islam & Judaism for a moment, but rather from a deist prospective can you give me one good reason as to why a God does not exist?

BMMachine

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Forget about the God of Christianity,Islam & Judaism for a moment, but rather from a deist prospective can you give me one good reason as to why a God does not exist?

because the stories he supposedly left us are not a representation of facts and are impossible

example 1 - burning bush talking to moses
example 2 - Jesus turning water into wine
example 3 - Jesus walking on water
example 4 - Jesus coming back to life
example 5 - the world being older than 10,000 years
example 6 - Evolution


so yeah, burden of proof is on you. What kind of mental gymnastics are you going to perform to stop all the facts from destroying your faith?

edit-
oh sorry, a God. Well thats pretty impossible to prove isn't it? Can you tell me why this supposed God isn't in fact John Travolta and not the Judeo/Christian God? You see, we don't exactly understand how life and this universe was created, but to some people they prey on those doubts and maybe fears. They prey on them to the extent where they make up stories about how to live and act and claim its from a divine creator. People fall for it, people maybe like it and there, bang, you have a religion.
But we are getting there We are learning more and more and that must be pretty worrying, especially seeing allll that stacked up evidence which very directly says "you're wrong". Its okay though, you will be forgiven