* CAO - a few important points ... * !Change of Mind CLOSES Friday 1st July at 17.15!

randylonghorn

*** CAO final Change of Mind CLOSES on Friday 1st July at 17.15 ***

Please don't leave it to the last minute to amend / update your CAO if you need to, as the system often struggles under the last minute onslaught!!

This is your last chance to get it right!!



It's that time of year again, so a few comments on the basic principles underlying the CAO process.

The points system
Points are not set by the colleges, or the CAO. They are based on supply and demand, by the Leaving Cert points of the applicants. If the students applying for a course all score very highly, the points will go up, and vice versa.

Say for example, a course has 20 places. The CAO will run through the list of people who have met the minimum requirements for the course, and offer the course to the top 20 people. The points of the last person to be offered the course are the points that are published as the "cut-off" for the course. If any of those people refuse the offer, the course is then offered to the next person on the list. Whatever points this person is on will become the points published for 2nd round offers, and so on.

CAO
The whole CAO application process works on a basic principle ... that YOU know what you want!

It is important to understand this, and to understand how the system is set up based on that principle.

When the CAO gets round to offering places, you will be offered the first course on your list for which you have enough points, and everything below that on the list vanishes instantly. If you missed a higher ranked option on your list by a few points, and the points drop in a later round, you may well be offered that ... but you will never be offered a lower option on your list, even if the points for it were higher than the course you were offered, and you achieved those points.

The system presumes you knew your own mind when you ranked your choices.

Which is why it is absolutely essential that you rank your CAO choices in the order in which YOU would like to be offered them ... NOT according to what way you think the points might go, not in order of supposed status, not for any other reason except "I really want to do X, that goes down first; if I don't get X, then Y is my next preference ..." and so on.


Or ... as one of your own peers put it ...

dan_d wrote: »

Golden Rule for the CAO, which most people don't seem to cop...

Put the course you want the most in the top position, regardless of whether or not you think you'll get the points.

Once you are offered a course on your CAO form, you cannot be offered any course in a position lower than this. However, you could be offered a higher up course on your form in subsequent rounds. You won't get it if you don't at least ask!!!!

The CAO itself puts it this way:

CAO Handbook wrote:

Order of Preference:

It is MOST IMPORTANT that you state your course choices in view of genuine preference and/or career plans.

IT IS A MISTAKE to base your choices only on your present expectation of examination performance or the points levels of previous years.

There is no need to fear that a statement of your genuine order of preference will militate against you. If you are not successful in your first choice this will have no effect on your chances of obtaining a place in one of your lower preferences.

So ... why am I basically repeating the same thing three times?!

Because year after year, this is the thing which trips people up, no matter how often it is said!!



*** Link to CAO Handbook ***

Please *do* put aside an hour at some stage to read through it ... it will repay you as the year goes on. Even if you don't recall every detail, you will have a better idea where to find what you want / check on details.


Link to CAO log-in page ... log into your CAO account here!
.




How the CAO works:

Offer of highest preference

You will be offered a place in the highest of your course preferences to which you are entitled (if any).

This will be done, independently, in respect of Level 8 and Level 7/Level 6 choices.

You may, therefore, receive two offers at the same time; one for the highest Level 8 preference to which you are entitled and the other for the highest Level 7/Level 6 preference to which you are entitled.

Exclusion from lower preferences

IMPORTANT: When you have been offered a place in one of your course preferences, you are excluded from further consideration for any course which is lower in your order of preference than the one in which you have been offered a place.

This means that while you may subsequently move upwards in your order of preference (if places become available due to withdrawals) you will not be considered for a place in a course which is a lower preference than that already offered.

Later offers for higher preference

If you are being offered a place in a course which is not your first preference, you may subsequently be offered a place in a course of higher preference if such a place becomes available.

This applies whether or not the earlier offer has been accepted. It is NOT necessary to accept an offer in order to be considered for a higher preference if it becomes available later. There is no guarantee, of course, that a higher preference will become available.

Non-acceptance of subsequent offers

Having accepted an offer of a place, you are not obliged to accept a subsequent offer. You may retain the original offer simply by ignoring the subsequent one.

EoghanIRL

Can I still accept my second choice after accepting my first choice ????

So it begins ..:)

thelad95

So to clarify, you can accept an offer for any course you have enough points for? :P :cool:

9de5q7tsr8u2im

so do people usually get offered their 2nd preference in the first round of offers and their 1st preference in the second round of offers?
sounds scary!

randylonghorn

EoghanIRL wrote: »

Can I still accept my second choice after accepting my first choice ????

So it begins ..:)

thelad95 wrote: »

So to clarify, you can accept an offer for any course you have enough points for? :P :cool:

I have my eye on you two!

LuckyDude12 wrote: »

so do people usually get offered their 2nd preference in the first round of offers and their 1st preference in the second round of offers?
sounds scary!

Nope, not meaning to be a smartass though it may sound like it, but people get the offers they have the points for, and there aren't really any patterns like that.

The nearest thing to a pattern, or at least something to note, is that the majority of people don't get offers in the second round at all, either because they were lucky enough to get their first choice in Round 1, or because their higher choice course(s) filled or almost filled in the first round and therefore there are no or very few offers for that course / those courses in the second round.

Lara_15

So we put our CAO form in order of points yeah?

Also if I get enough points for my first choice can I change my mind and do my second instead

EoghanIRL

Inb4 my career guidance teacher never told us / is useless / is never in.

spurious

Unfortunately, all joking aside, people will make foolish errors that would not happen if they had read the CAO handbook.

It's not crap careers people are to blame when applicants do not read the handbook. RTFM, as they say.

randylonghorn

What Spurious said.

Lara_15 wrote: »

So we put our CAO form in order of points yeah?

Also if I get enough points for my first choice can I change my mind and do my second instead

No and no ... as you well know!

Trainee primary teachers these days ... >_>

rainbowtrout

Is it ok to go down to Paddy Powers and show them this thread and put a bet on (my house would do) on the fact that there will be people here next August going ' I got my first choice, but I want my second choice, and i didn't put it down first because I didn't think I'd get the points, and if I beg the CAO for the next few days, do you think they'd let me into the course?'


Read the handbook people.


Personally i think the CAO website should have the instructions in audio format and have a Q&A session throughout to test your understanding and only let you apply once you have passed the test. A bit like the test for the provisional licence. :pac:

Peregrine

Lara_15 wrote: »

Handbook is love gandbook is lidddddeee
Love CAO love leaving feet love life

Screenshotted for future slagging :pac:

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I got my first choice, but I want my second choice, and i didn't put it down first because I didn't think I'd get the points,

Or "I thought I had to put the highest point course first" as if the CAO were conducting a mini maths test on the side

Lara_15

Nim wrote: »

Screenshotted for future slagging :pac:

H8 U

Magnate

Quick question, say 2 people get the same amount of points for the last place on a course and it goes down to random selection, is a place held the next year for the person who didn't get in? (Assuming they don't accept any other offers.)

In other words, will they receive a deferral of the offer for the following academic year?

rainbowtrout

Magnate wrote: »

Quick question, say 2 people get the same amount of points for the last place on a course and it goes down to random selection, is a place held the next year for the person who didn't get in? (Assuming they don't accept any other offers.)

No. They don't get an offer.

Magnate

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No. They don't get an offer.

So the only way to get a deferral place is to get rechecks and go up by one grade?

DublinArnie

So this means, even if you meet the min requirements and points for a course, that does not guarantee you to be accepted if the spaces are full with people who are 'above' you on the list?

I guess it's better to aim higher then.

rainbowtrout

Magnate wrote: »

So the only way to get a deferral place is to get rechecks and go up by one grade?

Two ways of deferring. Get offered a place through the normal way (round 1 or 2) and decide to defer it until the following year.

Get a recheck, get an upgrade, get an offer based on your new points score and accept and enrol or defer new offer until next year.

The upgrade thing: some colleges will let you start because college is only running a week or two and you won't have missed much. Some will encourage a deferral because the college started early September and you could have missed up to 6 weeks.

Some can only offer a deferral because the course is full but are obliged to offer you a place if you got it after the upgrade. Some are in the position to offer you a place immediately because they've already had drop outs or it's something like Arts where hundreds of students are enrolled so 1 one probably won't make a difference.

Peregrine

Magnate wrote: »

So the only way to get a deferral place is to get rechecks and go up by one grade?

Yes, if you're not offered a place in the first/second or whatever round offers. If you are offered a place then you can ask your college to defer your place.

DublinArnie wrote: »

So this means, even if you meet the min requirements and points for a course, that does not guarantee you to be accepted if the spaces are full with people who are 'above' you on the list?

I guess it's better to aim higher then.

There's no such thing as a "meeting the minimum points for a course". See here.

It's always better to aim higher.

rainbowtrout

DublinArnie wrote: »

So this means, even if you meet the min requirements and points for a course, that does not guarantee you to be accepted if the spaces are full with people who are 'above' you on the list?

I guess it's better to aim higher then.

There's no set points for a course. If there are 50 places on a course and 60 apply for it and all meet the minimum requirements then they are listed by points and the first 50 are offered places. If two of those people reject the offer then person no 51 and 52 will be offered places in the next round. The points you see printed in the paper for this course are the points person no. 50 got.

If person 50, 51 and 52 all got the same points with only 1 place left then it goes to random selection and one of the three are offered the place at random.

DublinArnie

rainbowtrout wrote: »

There's no set points for a course. If there are 50 places on a course and 60 apply for it and all meet the minimum requirements then they are listed by points and the first 50 are offered places. If two of those people reject the offer then person no 51 and 52 will be offered places in the next round. The points you see printed in the paper for this course are the points person no. 50 got.

If person 50, 51 and 52 all got the same points with only 1 place left then it goes to random selection and one of the three are offered the place at random.

That makes a lot of sense, thanks!

randylonghorn

DublinArnie wrote: »

So this means, even if you meet the min requirements and points for a course, that does not guarantee you to be accepted if the spaces are full with people who are 'above' you on the list?

I guess it's better to aim higher then.

Minimum requirements for a course are just that ... minimum. It means you won't be accepted if you don't meet the minimum requirements, but it's not a guarantee of a place if you do. In fact for most courses, minimum requirements will be well below the level at which actually people get offers.

The only way in which there are minimum points for a course (and see other posts above which I'm not going to repeat) is insofar as the minimum requirements can be translated into points. For example, if the minimum requirements state "Two HC3 grades and 4 OD3 grades", this has a points equivalent which can be calculated. The actual points each year could well be much higher though, and are likely to vary each year.

Kirby42

When you're filling out your CAO form should you use up all of your choices or can you add additional courses to them later at the change of mind?

randylonghorn

Kirby42 wrote: »

When you're filling out your CAO form should you use up all of your choices or can you add additional courses to them later at the change of mind?

You can change options / add additional courses later.

The only exceptions are "restricted" courses ... see here.

Lara_15

I'm still confused... Why can't we put pur CAO in order of points? Surely that's the logical thing to do, no point in having something with really high points before something with low points is there

EoghanIRL

Lara_15 wrote: »

I'm still confused... Why can't we put pur CAO in order of points? Surely that's the logical thing to do, no point in having something with really high points before something with low points is there

Yes there is . It's what course you are interested in and what course you want to do.

Points don't correspond to your preference .
The course with the highest points might not be the course you want most , be located in right place , etc.

P.s don't talk about putting your cao in order of points . Randy might find it and whip out the handbook.

thelad95

Lara_15 wrote: »

I'm still confused... Why can't we put pur CAO in order of points? Surely that's the logical thing to do, no point in having something with really high points before something with low points is there

All joking aside, it can often work out that someones order of preference is the same as the order of points.

Peregrine

EoghanIRL wrote: »

Yes there is . It's what course you are interested in and what course you want to do.

Points don't correspond to your preference .
The course with the highest points might not be the course you want most , be located in right place , etc.

She's taking the pish

rainbowtrout

Lara_15 wrote: »

I'm still confused... Why can't we put pur CAO in order of points? Surely that's the logical thing to do, no point in having something with really high points before something with low points is there

Because points are not predetermined by the college, they change every year. In some courses they don't change, or don't change by much because the demand for the course is similar every year.

If you ordered your courses by points then you would be given the highest course on the list that you achieved the points for. it might not be the course you wanted.

E.g.

If you were applying for Business or Commerce and wanted to go to NUIG and you picked 5 courses:
And the points last year were:
Trinity 510, UCC, 495, NUIG 460, UCD 480, NUIM 450 then your application might look something like this:

TCD
UCC
UCD
NUIG
NUIM

Let's assume the points didn't change for any of them this year.

If you got 520 in the LC you would be offered TCD even though you wanted Galway.

By putting them in order of preference, you get offered your first choice if you have the points for it, if you don't have the points for it you get offered the next one on the list if you have the points for it. You are considered equally for all courses on your list and get offered the highest one on the list you are eligible for.


If you make the fatal mistake of putting your courses in order of points rather than preference you will be back here next August on the offers thread going 'I put my courses in order of points and I was offered TCD, but I wanted NUIG, if I ring the CAO/NUIG and beg will they let me in?' The answer to that in advance is NO. They do not make exceptions.

thelad95

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Because points are not predetermined by the college, they change every year. In some courses they don't change, or don't change by much because the demand for the course is similar every year.

If you ordered your courses by points then you would be given the highest course on the list that you achieved the points for. it might not be the course you wanted.

E.g.

If you were applying for Businss or Commerce and wanted to go to NUIG and you picked 5 courses:

Trinity 510, UCC, 495, NUIG 460, UCD 480, NUIM 450 then your application would look something like this:

TCD
UCC
UCD
NUIG
NUIM

If you got 520 in the LC you would be offered TCD even though you wanted Galway.

By putting them in order of preference, you get offered your first choice if you have the points for it, if you don't have the points for it you get offered the next one on the list if you have the points for it. You are considered equally for all courses on your list and get offered the highest one on the list you are eligible for.

I suppose it's good you've posted this for people to see as there is genuinely a worryingly large amount of students who do the LC without fully understanding how the CAO works but I'm 99% sure she was takin' the mick.

RoRo979

if lets say i put down.
1)trinity 510
2)DCU 490
3)UCD 460
4)DIT 449

all for lets say computer science. some one else puts down

1)UCD
2)DIT
3)NUIG

and we both get the exact same points, am i more likely to get offered the course in ucd as i havnt git my main oe or is the other student as it was his preferenece

rainbowtrout

RoRo979 wrote: »

if lets say i put down.
1)trinity 510
2)DCU 490
3)UCD 460
4)DIT 449

all for lets say computer science. some one else puts down

1)UCD
2)DIT
3)NUIG

and we both get the exact same points, am i more likely to get offered the course in ucd as i havnt git my main oe or is the other student as it was his preferenece

Neither. Effectively you are put into the list for each of the courses you apply for and so is the other student.

If there are 50 places on each course you may end up in the top 50 in some courses and not on others depending on the no of applicants. They will look at your first choice. If you are in the 50 you are automatically removed from the list for all of your other preferences.

Same goes for the other student.

Of course this is very much simplified and i think the CAO do a great job in sorting all the offers for thousands of students using this system every year