Rogue cyclists set to face on-the-spot fines MOD WARNING in first post

Pinch Flat

Inquitus wrote: »

I'd like to ask how this can be enforced. I am cycling with only my phone and a fiver in my pocket, I get stopped, I have no proof of ID on me, unlike in the case of cars I don't have a registration 1) How are the Guards able to ensure I give the right name, address etc. 2) How do the Guards now a fine has been issued to the right person in the absence of said ID if it is queried once receeved in the post.

I really don't see how it can be enforced given we do not have a reg that ties us to the vehicle from an identification PoV.

Irish rail are successful in clamping down on fare evasions in similar circumstances - yes people will give false addresses sometimes, but I've seen them call the guards to verify someone's identity. So guards may request a number they can call (relative) or ring a bank or utility company to verify identity.

Or course all this will be unnecessary once cyclists are microchipped - best idea I've hear in ages

CramCycle

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Or course all this will be unnecessary once cyclists are microchipped - best idea I've hear in ages

Must not Godwin thread

Jawgap

Inquitus wrote: »

I'd like to ask how this can be enforced. I am cycling with only my phone and a fiver in my pocket, I get stopped, I have no proof of ID on me, unlike in the case of cars I don't have a registration 1) How are the Guards able to ensure I give the right name, address etc. 2) How do the Guards now a fine has been issued to the right person in the absence of said ID if it is queried once receeved in the post.

I really don't see how it can be enforced given we do not have a reg that ties us to the vehicle from an identification PoV.

As already said, if the Guard isn't happy with your info he / she can take the bike - it might be worth bearing in mind that if it is taken it'll likely be plonked into a van then put into a property store at the station with all the other stuff they confiscate on top of or resting against it (or left in the yard exposed to the elements).

And there it will stay until you get yourself to the station with the requisite id, at which point the Guard will give you the bike back and the FPN.

......and it might be worth remembering that the Guards have no duty of care towards property they seize.

cdaly_

Jawgap wrote: »

As already said, if the Guard isn't happy with your info he / she can take the bike

And presumably they're pretty good at spotting the "I'm lying" body language to identify false info...

Beasty

I'll just flash 'em my Boards username - it's probably already on their database:pac:

TonyStark

tomasrojo wrote: »

So when there is an increase in cycling and pedestrian deaths, the national conversation moves around to "how can we get cyclists and pedestrians to wear more hiviz", not how can we make motorists obey speed limits. When a cycling death comes before a judge, the judge generally accepts the claim that the motorist couldn't have seen the cyclist, even if the cyclist is wearing hiviz. Judges are reluctant to take licences of repeat offenders if that offender claims (as they all do) that it would affect their livelihood. If a driver claims that they couldn't see a cyclist because the sun was in their eyes, that is also acceptable, even though you shouldn't be driving when you're blinded.

Cyclists not wearing hiviz are not breaking any laws. There is no need to catch and punish them. It is also very unlikely that mandatory hiviz is going to be brought in just after the expansion of the dublinbike share scheme and analagous implementations in other cities. Successive governments are quite keen to keep a very successful and useful scheme going. Reducing it to Australian levels of use is not something they'd contemplate.

Also when the media reports a cyclist death, the headline is always in the format of "Cyclist Killed at Roundabout", it suggests that the Cyclist came by his death by some sort of misadventure on his part.

If I accidentally kill a person, I am held on remand by the Police until things are cleared by the Judicial system. In the interim I am either bailed or held on remand.

We never have headlines of "Motorist arrested as Cyclist is Killed at Roundabout" as in the case when someone accidentally kills someone. For non -road deaths here is always a report of an arrest, perhaps to alleviate fears among the public at large that there is not some mad-man on the loose, but not when it comes to collisions on the road.

Something like that would really hit it home to Motorists that there are serious consequences to their actions IMHO. Overtime it would sink in.

granty1987

07Lapierre wrote: »

I think a better idea would be anyone learning to drive must learn to cycle FIRST and cycle on the road for a few weeks. This would make people better "Road users".

I was going to raise this point.

Been driving for years and started cycling daily in Dublin for the last 12 months I would say.

I have noticed a difference in my on-road awareness after spending time on the bike and I completely see the advantages for every road user when they have been on both sides of the fence.

If has been said several times that the majority of cyclists here are also drivers, but the % of drivers who cycle is quite low.

Based on these figures (logical assumptions) I feel that drivers would become far more aware of cyclists and would give them the time/space required on the road without losing it. I used to be one of those people who didn't have the time/attention/care for cyclists to a degree. Now I give them a wide berth, leave the cycle lanes empty, double check for oncoming bikes and my personal peeve - when turning left, let them go first. All obvious stuff which I felt I was doing before - now I DEFINITELY am.

Solutions? If possible getting as many people in bicycles as possible for a short period of time - eg the Cycle Commute Week or whatever its called.
Increased school initiatives is a solid way of promoting road use in a safe manner, and in that instance a certificate / theory test has some value given time. I wouldn't make it mandatory for every cyclist though as it is not feasible.

The RSA trying to increase visibility for cyclists is all well and good - but I feel there is more to be gained from both drivers and cyclists knowing firsthand how their habits and attitudes affect the other parties.

Sidenote - there are idiots everywhere, some drive, some cycle etc and everyone has a story about Shelbyville stealing your lemon tree

endacl

CramCycle wrote: »

MOD VOICE: The same points have now been made for several pages, unless your next post has something new to add, its probably best to let this go. If anyone would like me to reopen the thread with some deeply fascinating insight into the on-the-spot fines that the thread is about then PM and I will re open.

TL:DR Everyone here thinks on the spot fines or FPNs are a good idea, I can add a list of people who don't if they want to PM me but that seems to be the overriding sentiment. Anything more about Hi Vis should be discussed in the Hi Vis thread, I recommend reading it before posting, as there is a small chance that what you are posting has been posted before in some form or another.

Isn't the "TL;DR" bit supposed to be the shorter paragraph?

:pac:

dinneenp

I 'obviously' don't condone this but could this new rule lead to a cyclist being told to stop, but instead of stopping and risking a fine cycling off?

Beasty

dinneenp wrote: »

I 'obviously' don't condone this but could this new rule lead to a cyclist being told to stop, but instead of stopping and risking a fine cycling off?

Traffic laws already apply to cyclists and they face a fine (probably a lot costlier in total) via the court process if they transgress anyway. If anyone is stupid enough to try and cycle away from a Garda who has instructed them to stop they will be risking much harsher penalties

ROK ON

dinneenp wrote: »

I 'obviously' don't condone this but could this new rule lead to a cyclist being told to stop, but instead of stopping and risking a fine cycling off?

Many years ago this happened to me. I sped down Christchurch Hill and carelessly broke a red light. Garda spotted me and shouted stop. I hit the brakes, got a bit of a lecture.
All I was thinking during the lecture was that I was an idiot for stopping when the Garda screamed at me - if I kept going there was very little that she could have done.

I wouldn't ever behave likenthat now of course

CramCycle

endacl wrote: »

Isn't the "TL;DR" bit supposed to be the shorter paragraph?

:pac:

I was referring to the entire thread but I do get your point, silly me.

ROK ON wrote: »

Many years ago this happened to me. I sped down Christchurch Hill and carelessly broke a red light. Garda spotted me and shouted stop. I hit the brakes, got a bit of a lecture.
All I was thinking during the lecture was that I was an idiot for stopping when the Garda screamed at me - if I kept going there was very little that she could have done.

I wouldn't ever behave likenthat now of course

Same here, in my youth, as I walked off I thought why did I stop. About 200metres up the road I seen the Squad car in hiding and was thankful I was well behaved.

check_six

ROK ON wrote: »

I wouldn't ever behave likenthat now of course

In that you wouldn't carelessly go through a red, or that you wouldn't stop when commanded?

Maybe you've left this deliberately open ended...?:)

Jawgap

ROK ON wrote: »

Many years ago this happened to me. I sped down Christchurch Hill and carelessly broke a red light. Garda spotted me and shouted stop. I hit the brakes, got a bit of a lecture.
All I was thinking during the lecture was that I was an idiot for stopping when the Garda screamed at me - if I kept going there was very little that she could have done.

I wouldn't ever behave likenthat now of course

Coming through Drumcondra and a Guard at the Archbishop's Palace tried to stop me - I genuine believed he was stopping someone else so I swerved around him.

His subsequent shout made it clear it was me he was after - so I put the foot down (doubt I've ever cycled as fast) and took a very convoluted way to work!

Don't think I've ever worn the jersey I was wearing that day again

bazermc

Beasty wrote: »

I'll just flash 'em my Boards username - it's probably already on their database:pac:

Well as long as you don't just flash'em

macyard

hardCopy wrote: »

Fines for no lights at night I get but I don't like the idea of being told what to wear.

If I cycle to the shop, pub, cinema or restaurant I like to wear what I would normally wear to such an establishment, not a da-glo raincoat.

You shouldn't be drinking and cycling, think about the feelings of the driver if you fall off into a car on the way home, the high vis is easy to remove and folds away small no reason not to wear it

Tony EH

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

There will never be fines handed out for not wearing high viz, or not wearing helmets. Not when there is a Dublin bike scheme in operation. Completely unworkable.

Neither will there ever be licensing / taxing of cyclists (been tried, and failed, in other cities).

All the legislation to deal with antisocial cyclists is already there. There are on the spot fines for breaking lights. You can be pulled over for cycling dangerously. And not having lights.

There is nothing in legislation that needs to change. All that is needed is for the Gardai to be on the street and take action. As a relatively sensible cyclist, I'd be in favour of this.

I would also favour on the spot fines (plus points) for drivers that run the red. Multiple cars go through the red at the top of Dawson street, for example, every time it changes (the worst are the taxis that come from the rank, and regularly just drive through the green man). I've never seen any of these guys get pulled over

Every single morning and night, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, I see a motorist do something stupid and dangerous on the roads to and from work and yet these "cyclist" threads come up nearly every month on Boards.ie.

I'd happily wager that the number of accidents actually caused by cyclists would be dwarfed into complete insignificance by the number of accidents caused by motorists.

It's especially ironic that there is yet another thread on this subject, given the news of another fatal motor crash this morning.

CramCycle

macyard wrote: »

You shouldn't be drinking and cycling, think about the feelings of the driver if you fall off into a car on the way home, the high vis is easy to remove and folds away small no reason not to wear it

MOD VOICE: All discussion on Hi vis should move to the Hi Vis Mega thread, thank you

Doctor Bob

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Similarly, Id wonder how someone needing to wear specific attire could be cycling anywhere in the first place as regards rain, grease, dirt and sweat. I don't see many lads cycling down the road in a tux, do you?

tomasrojo wrote: »

You have never been to the Netherlands then. You can see women in ball gowns and high heels cycling.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I have, and I never seen that happening actually. But the reality is we aren't in the Netherlands, we are in Ireland, with a different system in place.

I realise the discussion has moved on a bit, but I'd just like to point out that I cycled to a black tie event last year in my dress suit, including leather-soled shoes. How did I manage the 'rain, grease, dirt and sweat'? I used a bike with full mudguards and a coat-guard on the back wheel, I put fat rubber bands around the pedals to give more grip, and I cycled at a pace that didn't cause a sweat.

We are all in Ireland, but some of us are looking at the Dutch.

For what it's worth, I was attending the Irish Logistics and Transport Awards, the flagship award ceremony for the Irish freight and logistics sector.

Dutch people cycling in evening attire- in Dublin: https://www.flickr.com/photos/16nine/4748719468

magicbastarder

CramCycle wrote: »

MOD VOICE: All discussion on Hi vis should move to the Hi Vis Mega thread, thank you

what accent should i be reading the mod voice in? i'm currently using a gruff belfast accent.

CramCycle

magicbastarder wrote: »

what accent should i be reading the mod voice in? i'm currently using a gruff belfast accent.

In a loud, clear, midlands with the long drawn out vowels, bar mans voice who is trying to clear the premises, TIME FOLKS PLEASE, DO YOUR TALKING WHILE YOUR WALKING, YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO HOME BUT YOU CAN'T STAY HERE, etc. etc.

Jawgap

You see, this is what happens when the FPNs get sorted.........Finian now no longer has to be the defender or children, old folk and lollipop ladies across the land from the rampaging black clad peloton.......so now he can come up with daft ideas like this........

Finian McGrath ‘open to third rate of tax’ as part of Independent deputies’ alliance

tomasrojo

Doctor Bob wrote: »

I realise the discussion has moved on a bit, but I'd just like to point out that I cycled to a black tie event last year in my dress suit, including leather-soled shoes. How did I manage the 'rain, grease, dirt and sweat'? I used a bike with full mudguards and a coat-guard on the back wheel, I put fat rubber bands around the pedals to give more grip, and I cycled at a pace that didn't cause a sweat.

I just realised the relevance of my experience to that point (why it took me so long I don't know): I play classical guitar at formal events quite often, and I always cycle there in formal attire (maybe with a change of shirt if the journey is long or the weather is bad), with a guitar in a trailer and an amp in the front pannier. It isn't that hard. I just carry a bubble of the Netherlands around me in my mind.

RainyDay

Tony EH wrote: »

Every single morning and night, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, I see a motorist do something stupid and dangerous on the roads to and from work

You really should think about reporting that motorist, if he is stupid and dangerous every day.

Tony EH

:pac:

Jawgap

Ciaran Cuffe is against the idea of FPNs - that seems surprising.....

Meanwhile, plans to legislate this year against cyclists who break the law have been criticised by a Green Party councillor and former TD Ciarán Cuffe.

Under the plans, cyclists who break the law by failing to obey traffic lights, ride on footpaths, or ride on the wrong side of the road, will face fines of €50.

Yesterday, Cllr Cuffe described the fine proposal as a “ham-fisted approach” to the problem of what he describes as “dangerous cycling”.

From Road safety officer wants law on gap between cars and cyclists

eeeee

tomasrojo wrote: »

I just realised the relevance of my experience to that point (why it took me so long I don't know): I play classical guitar at formal events quite often, and I always cycle there in formal attire (maybe with a change of shirt if the journey is long or the weather is bad), with a guitar in a trailer and an amp in the front pannier. It isn't that hard. I just carry a bubble of the Netherlands around me in my mind.

I also cycle in formal gear, skirts, dresses and heels at least once a week. It's easier now I took the SPD-SL pedals off the commuter :pac: But that bike has full mudguards, flat pedals (now) and I don't break any land speed records going in. Although it's hard to cycle slower, my brain is on auto-burst yourself when I get on the bike

ETA Maybe we should have a tiny little bit of orange on our bikes to show our Dutch solidarity!

eeeee

Jawgap wrote: »

Ciaran Cuffe is against the idea of FPNs - that seems surprising.....



From Road safety officer wants law on gap between cars and cyclists

From the same article:

And after the video?

“The cyclist was wear [sic] bright yellow clothing stating give cyclists 1.5 metres when over taking.” :rolleyes:

Qualitymark

Nobody understands 1.5m. Make it two metres - it used to be "six feet clearance", and people will have a notion. Good drivers stay two metres out from cyclists.
But thread-creeping back, on-the-spot fines for cyclists are a) unacceptable if they're not also imposed on drivers, and b) the high road to gardaí taking bribes.
If a garda is supposed to take cash, it's a big temptation for him or her to pocket it. And I can't see them going around with little credit card machines.

Jawgap

Qualitymark wrote: »

Nobody understands 1.5m. Make it two metres - it used to be "six feet clearance", and people will have a notion. Good drivers stay two metres out from cyclists.
But thread-creeping back, on-the-spot fines for cyclists are a) unacceptable if they're not also imposed on drivers, and b) the high road to gardaí taking bribes.
If a garda is supposed to take cash, it's a big temptation for him or her to pocket it. And I can't see them going around with little credit card machines.

Can't honestly see a Guard taking a bribe not to issue an FPN of any description (if that's what your suggesting) - would you risk your career and reputation for €50?

The FPN will be issued by the Guard and you'll have 56 days to pay using existing procedures - the Guards won't be handling the cash.

I'd imagine if you don't have sufficient id, your bike will be confiscated then returned to you when you produce your id at the station - at which point you'll also get the FPN.