Rogue cyclists set to face on-the-spot fines MOD WARNING in first post

micar

Pkiernan wrote: »

I'd like to see a system where offences comitted on a bicycle resulted in points being applied to the offenders driving license.
It would be much more successful .

Some cyclists may not have cars.

tomasrojo

I believe, based on that other thread I linked to, that you can get points on a "shadow" licence, that will be transferred to your real licence, should you ever get one.

(You also can be a cyclist, not own a car, but have a full licence.)

tomasrojo

micar wrote: »

I'd like to know where, when and what were the offences.

RTÉ said (IIRC) that >60% of FPNs issued to cyclists were for breaking red lights. Followed by not having either a front light, rear light or both after dark.

micar

micar wrote: »

As a person who criscrosses the city everyday 6.30-7.30
am and 4-5pm by bike,I have never seen a cyclists being stopped let alone being spoken to by a guards.

I've seen plenty of cyclists breaking red lights.

I also see plenty of motorists speeding excessively, driving dangerousl, breaking red light and using their mobiles.

I would actually see more incidents of motorists breaking laws over cyclists.

Before you start, I do stop at lights.

I'd like to know where, when and what were the offences.

Also, what is the success rate of actually getting the fine paid.

Should reckless cycling be condoned? Absolutely not.

But lets not kid ourselves that these fines are anything to do with cycle safety. They are punishment for not following the rules of the road.
The rules of the road and the infrastructure which were designed designed with the motor car in mind.

In transport policy the car is king and you as a cyclist are expected to behave like one even though in almost every way you are different.

The response to rising bike fatalities, due to increasing bike journeys on infrastructure designed for cars, was something akin to victim blaming. Fine the rogue cyclists!

jelutong

ronoc wrote: »

Should reckless cycling be condoned? Absolutely not.

But lets not kid ourselves that these fines are anything to do with cycle safety. They are punishment for not following the rules of the road.
The rules of the road and the infrastructure which were designed designed with the motor car in mind.

In transport policy the car is king and you as a cyclist are expected to behave like one even though in almost every way you are different.

The response to rising bike fatalities, due to increasing bike journeys on infrastructure designed for cars, was something akin to victim blaming. Fine the rouge cyclists!

The ones wearing make up you mean! Proper order.

micar

ronoc wrote: »

The response to rising bike fatalities, due to increasing bike journeys on infrastructure designed for cars, was something akin to victim blaming. Fine the rouge cyclists!

I agree...fine rogue cyclists.


However, I would consider myself to be a safe cyclist

Any dangerous positions I have been is purely due to lack of observation by motorists.

I have had cars pull put in front of me, overtaking me and then pulling across my path to turn left, cars turning right into my path , cars pulling into parking spots without looking to their left. Passengers open their doors without looking.

I have also had a Dublin bus driver in traffic open his doors to let people off. He did not indicate or pull in. Luckily I only clipped some fella on the shoulder. Could have been serious.

2RockMountain

ronoc wrote: »

Should reckless cycling be condoned? Absolutely not.

But lets not kid ourselves that these fines are anything to do with cycle safety. They are punishment for not following the rules of the road.
The rules of the road and the infrastructure which were designed designed with the motor car in mind.

In transport policy the car is king and you as a cyclist are expected to behave like one even though in almost every way you are different.

The response to rising bike fatalities, due to increasing bike journeys on infrastructure designed for cars, was something akin to victim blaming. Fine the rogue cyclists!

I agree with most of what you say, but aren't bike fatalities decreasing? I think I heard that the most recent one, the gent in Louth in the last week or two, was the 2nd fatality for the year. If that trend continues, we'll be below the all-time low of (I think) 6 for the year.

Carawaystick

It's funny how we call cyclists who don't stop at red lights in a badly designed and implemented cycle lane when no one else is around, but when Willie O Dea lies under oath at the High Court there is zero punishment.

He's still mouthing as a senior member of the party which bankrupt the country and looks set to prop up the next govt. But yeah punish chaps cycling through red lights when there is no danger :rolleyes:

Orion

2RockMountain wrote: »

I agree with most of what you say, but aren't bike fatalities decreasing? I think I heard that the most recent one, the gent in Louth in the last week or two, was the 2nd fatality for the year. If that trend continues, we'll be below the all-time low of (I think) 6 for the year.

Overall trend is certainly down. The graph below shows it to 2013. There was a spike in 2014 of 12 cyclists. Then down again to 9 in 2015.

buffalo

Carawaystick wrote: »

It's funny how we call cyclists who don't stop at red lights in a badly designed and implemented cycle lane when no one else is around, but when Willie O Dea lies under oath at the High Court there is zero punishment.

He's still mouthing as a senior member of the party which bankrupt the country and looks set to prop up the next govt. But yeah punish chaps cycling through red lights when there is no danger :rolleyes:

Not to mention we still still don't punish drunk driving with a driving ban of any kind - 3 penalty points? ooh, harsh!

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/female-drunk-driver-arrested-following-damage-to-parked-cars-1.2632299

...she was fined €80 by gardaí for driving 93 km/h in a 50km/h zone.
The woman was also fined €200 for drunk driving and received three penalty points.

tomasrojo

Orion wrote: »

Overall trend is certainly down. The graph below shows it to 2013. There was a spike in 2014 of 12 cyclists. Then down again to 9 in 2015.

It has to be said that with very small numbers you can't really expect smooth trends. So the "spikes" that the RSA and the media tend to look at are really hard to distinguish from statistical noise. Only the long-term trend is really meaningful.

Still, doesn't stop the RSA and the media saying things like cycling "is dangerous and getting more dangerous", based on the very numbers in that graph (plus one more year).

(In 2011, the RSA did not have a media campaign saying that cycling fatalities had dropped to five in 2010 from fifteen three years earlier, and therefore cycling was safe and getting safer.)

Jawgap

buffalo wrote: »

Not to mention we still still don't punish drunk driving with a driving ban of any kind - 3 penalty points? ooh, harsh!

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/female-drunk-driver-arrested-following-damage-to-parked-cars-1.2632299

Actually, I think if you 'fess up when you are caught driving under the influence and opt for the 'Fixed Charge' - it's €200 and an automatic 6 month ban......

......or you can tell them to stuff their Fixed Charge and head to down to the DC to play for the really big prizes!

roverrules

ronoc wrote: »

Should reckless cycling be condoned? Absolutely not.

But lets not kid ourselves that these fines are anything to do with cycle safety. They are punishment for not following the rules of the road.
The rules of the road and the infrastructure which were designed designed with the motor car in mind.

In transport policy the car is king and you as a cyclist are expected to behave like one even though in almost every way you are different.

The response to rising bike fatalities, due to increasing bike journeys on infrastructure designed for cars, was something akin to victim blaming. Fine the rogue cyclists!

I'm sorry but if we want to use the roads then the rules have to apply to us as well. You can't just decide that becuse we aren't motorised that we shouldn't be subject to the laws of the road.

magicbastarder

i've talked to two gardai (albeit before the FPN regime came in) and both thought that the notion of garda resources being used to chase cyclists was a waste of time and money. i wonder how (or if) the FPN regime has changed their attitude.

tomasrojo

The usual statistics question comes to mind about these six hundred FPNs: is that a big number? How many motorists were issued fines in the same period, and can you adjust for the greater number of motorists and for the greater number of motoring offences that attract FPNs?

Even after all that you find that cyclists get a lot of fines, you are left with different interpretations. If cyclists are issued a disproportionate number of fines, is it because they are more prone to law-breaking, easier to catch, or just an outsider group that police like to target somewhat more than, say, car-drivers?

Not sure how you disentangle that ball of wool.

(Still, as all official cycling advocates say, don't break red lights, please.)

magicbastarder

tomasrojo wrote: »

The usual statistics question comes to mind about these six hundred FPNs: is that a big number? How many motorists were issued fines in the same period, and can you adjust for the greater number of motorists and for the greater number of motoring offences that attract FPNs?

and what is the payoff of the fines? is there any analysis of how it might change cyclist behaviour?

ED E

magicbastarder wrote: »

i've talked to two gardai (albeit before the FPN regime came in) and both thought that the notion of garda resources being used to chase cyclists was a waste of time and money. i wonder how (or if) the FPN regime has changed their attitude.

AGS are not the people to be asking here. They have a problematic mindset where most things are "ahh thats not worth our time" and they pursue only the big three or four. Then Joe public says "I'll only be a minute" and parks on a traffic Island. The Gardai should enforce every offence they see, no walking past 20 cars in a QBC. If the police won't take a law seriously the public never will.

magicbastarder wrote: »

and what is the payoff of the fines? is there any analysis of how it might change cyclist behaviour?

This legislation should have included a "left on red" rule for cyclists and motorbikes. You'd exclude a large portion of those FCPNs in one swoop.

Kaisr Sose

2RockMountain wrote: »

The vast majority of motorists know well that the chances of being caught breaking a light or using the phone are tiny.

I agree with that.

There are far more 'Rogues' in motor vehicles, running red lights, turning without indicating, with non-conforming reg plates desgned to avoid number plate recognition technology, parking where they like, etc etc. than rogue cyclists!

So who is the bigger or more dangerous rogue on the road and where should the resources, money and focus go to change behaviour? For example, technology to catch the red light jumpers/runners is widely used in many countries but not here...

We're it deployed, the number of motorists caught by this technology would certainly make for good 'Rogue' headlines...

Tenzor07

I'm with Cuffe on this one!

Dangerous driving
“I would like to see more done to tackle dangerous driving,” Mr Cuffe said.
“We know from the Road Safety Authority that a vast number of cars routinely break speed limits and park in cycle lanes and on footpaths, and perhaps more focus should be placed on that.”
RSA spokesman Brian Farrell agreed more could be done to police the speed limits, “particularly in urban areas to make them safer for both cyclists and pedestrians ”.
Mr Cuffe said while cyclists should obey the rules of the road, the fact remained they were at much greater risk than other road users and “99 times out of 100 it is the cyclist who is going to be hurt in an accident”.
“I also think gardaí need to do more to encourage cycling and maybe they should not be putting so much effort into catching errant cyclists and concentrate on getting their own house in order.
“Far too often they park in cycle lanes so they can nip into a local Centra. I don’t say that lightly. It is a fact and they should be leading by example.”

Tony EH

magicbastarder wrote: »

i've talked to two gardai (albeit before the FPN regime came in) and both thought that the notion of garda resources being used to chase cyclists was a waste of time and money. i wonder how (or if) the FPN regime has changed their attitude.

Most won't and don't bother. It'll depend on who you get that day. If they are of a mind to, or maybe fresh out of Templemore, then they might decide to persue the issue. It'll come down to the practicality of such.

Frankly, it's such a non issue the vast majority of the time, most gardai won't even register it. They have more important things to do.

Of course, if some clown is plowing through something like a pedestrian crossing while people are using it, that would quite rightly change matters and I'd expect the Guards to take it seriously.

Lemming

tomasrojo wrote: »

The usual statistics question comes to mind about these six hundred FPNs: is that a big number? How many motorists were issued fines in the same period, and can you adjust for the greater number of motorists and for the greater number of motoring offences that attract FPNs?

You made a paraphrased quote from RTE earlier in this thread about the corresponding numbers of motorists issued speeding fines in the same period as those 600 FPNs were issued, which was circa 20,000. Whilst it's not a definitive number, it would suggest that 600 FPNs is a fraction of fines & penalties dolled out to motorists within a similar time-frame. If that's circa 20,000 speeding fines alone, then when you add in every other possible type of road-offense for which motorists are penalised, the number is likely to exceed 20,000 by a considerable margin.

As it stands, taking 20,000 as our starting point, those 600 FPNs amount to 3% by comparison. Dem darn cyclists!! They'll kill us all, won't someone please think of our childrens childrens children!!! etc.

roverrules

roverrules wrote: »

I'm sorry but if we want to use the roads then the rules have to apply to us as well. You can't just decide that becuse we aren't motorised that we shouldn't be subject to the laws of the road.

No but I don't think there is any harm point out how silly the policy situation is.

Cycling is on the increase in the city. Instead of some new initiatives to make it safer or increase capacity one of the only policy changes were more fines.

2RockMountain

Jawgap wrote: »

Actually, I think if you 'fess up when you are caught driving under the influence and opt for the 'Fixed Charge' - it's €200 and an automatic 6 month ban......

......or you can tell them to stuff their Fixed Charge and head to down to the DC to play for the really big prizes!

Or the really small ones, as seems to have been the case in the example given.

roverrules

ronoc wrote: »

No but I don't think there is any harm point out how silly the policy situation is.

Cycling is on the increase in the city. Instead of some new initiatives to make it safer or increase capacity one of the only policy changes were more fines.

And if there are more road users then it becomes even more important that people stick to the regulations otherwise its just anarchy. How many times have you overtaken someone, stopped at a red light for them to nonchalantly pull up past the stop line in front of you ( if they stop at all ). nessecitating you overtaking them again.

kazamo

577 Fixed Notice Charges issued in five and a half months.
Less than one a week per county.

Jawgap

2RockMountain wrote: »

Or the really small ones, as seems to have been the case in the example given.

That wasn't a court imposed sanction.

Presumably she was arrested, taken to the station and opted to be dealt with administratively and met the criteria for same......

roverrules

Jawgap wrote: »

That wasn't a court imposed sanction.

Presumably she was arrested, taken to the station and opted to be dealt with administratively and met the criteria for same......

Does the experienced drivers not exceeding 80mg per 100ml of blood etc. now mean we have a defacto 0 limit, or what is the level before you fail?

tomasrojo

Lemming wrote: »

You made a paraphrased quote from RTE earlier in this thread about the corresponding numbers of motorists issued speeding fines in the same period as those 600 FPNs were issued, which was circa 20,000. Whilst it's not a definitive number, it would suggest that 600 FPNs is a fraction of fines & penalties dolled out to motorists within a similar time-frame. If that's circa 20,000 speeding fines alone, then when you add in every other possible type of road-offense for which motorists are penalised, the number is likely to exceed 20,000 by a considerable margin.

As it stands, taking 20,000 as our starting point, those 600 FPNs amount to 3% by comparison. Dem darn cyclists!! They'll kill us all, won't someone please think of our childrens childrens children!!! etc.

I could have misremembered that though. My ability to analyse numbers is good; my ability to remember really quite poor!

Jawgap

magicbastarder wrote: »

i've talked to two gardai (albeit before the FPN regime came in) and both thought that the notion of garda resources being used to chase cyclists was a waste of time and money. i wonder how (or if) the FPN regime has changed their attitude.

de brudder is an inspector in AGS and the de brudder-in-law is a sergeant - both agree that it's a bit of a waste of Garda resources but they do get involved in the occasional clampdown for a bit of PR. It's really only the egregious idiots who get done outside those 'campaign' periods - or put it this way, if you hammer through Five Lamps and the light is red and there's a Garda there you'll get done, if you nip a left on red or breeze through an empty pedestrian crossing, you'll likely not.

Bit disappointing to see that no one seems to have been done for "riding a bicycle without reasonable consideration" namely filtering dangerously - there's probably more to be said for ticketing muppets who do that as a means of improving road safety.

tomasrojo

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

So who is the bigger or more dangerous rogue on the road and where should the resources, money and focus go to change behaviour? For example, technology to catch the red light jumpers/runners is widely used in many countries but not here...

I remember being surprised that they had such a thing in LA. Saw it first in Curb Your Enthusiasm, Larry's protestations that he isn't fixated on women's behinds are undermined by a FPN with screengrab he gets in the post.