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Rogue cyclists set to face on-the-spot fines MOD WARNING in first post
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But we don't separate trucks and cars on motorways, despite the fact that car drivers are much more vulnerable.
This is because we hold truck drivers to a high standard of driving and recognise that having segregated truck lanes on motorways would be extremely expensive and/or create dangerous problems at junctions.
And in order to drive a truck, you must learn to drive a car first....another reason why all motorists should have to cycle on roads first, before learning to drive a car.0 -
Actually, I am in favour of a "non private car" lane.
It could be used by cyclists and professional drivers: buses and taxis, because professional drivers are trained and licensed and so will always exercise due care and attention.
Calling it a "cycle, taxi and bus lane" would a lot of white paint, so we could just call it a "bus lane" and use signage to indicate the others.
Oh, wait...0 -
colossus-x wrote: »There are extremly wide footpaths on the Rock Road heading to Dun Laoghaire on some spots. I will always cycle on them (at times ) no matter what . The alternative is the extremely busy motorway where once one motorist hit me with their side mirror to my right hand. No damage done but it was scary. I also cycle a short distance for about 3 minutes to my gym everyday on the fairly wide footpath because I dont want do do the whole busy road,helmet, vis jacket etc when it's just such a short hop. I'll continue doing that was well - it would be daft not too. I have plenty lights on my bike so am okay there but I don't always wear a high vis jacket and neither do I feel I should, when I have plenty lights that is.
I heard on uk radio that other day that in Holland cark/bike collisions are always deemed the fault of the vehicle driver without exception , no matter what. And it works because it make the drives more aware/vigilant. That's the type of laws we need here instead of these pathetic little measures that have been introduced. When I was knocked of my bike in central London it was because the mini cab drive didn't look, not because I wasn't lit up. There is no point in being visible when the driver doesn't look in the first place.
Never, EVER cycle on the footpath. It is for pedestrians ONLY. There is no motorway on the Rock road, I cycle on it and the n11 almost every day. If you cycle safely and out from the footpath traffic will give you room. I don't agree with 100% driver culpability either, cyclists have to be responsible for their own actions. Culturally we are far, far away from the Dutch, and you could end up in a situation where a cyclist runs a light into a perfectly safe and legal turning car and the driver is at fault. We all need to take responsibility for our actions on the road.
I cannot stress enough how stupid, irresponsible and unnecessary cycling on the footpath is. It is never, ever ok. You cannot safely do it with pedestrians present as you don't know what way they are going to go . Also people find it intimidating, a silent cyclist whizzing inches by them at speed.
You are fine cycling on that road.MayoAreMagic wrote: »A genuine question. Shouldn't the fact that they are more vulnerable mean that cyclists and motorists are in fact not the same and shouldn't be treated as such? That isn't saying one is superior or inferior, it is saying that they are simply very different. For me, this is the underlying problem - they aren't the same, but in fact are quite different, and putting them into the same box under the heading 'vehicle' is just leading to problems.
The best way forward, I believe, is to create suitable cycle lanes and separate the two.
You are right on both points.
However, at the present moment we do not have anywhere near approaching decent cycling infrastructure. Cyclists and cars mix extremely well the majority of the time currently. Cycling is an inherently safe mode of transport. It is a lack of understanding on both parts. We can work well together, it is a pure lack of understanding of what it is like to be a cyclist that builds frustration in drivers, and visa versa, although the majority of cyclists also drive. A number of compulsory urban and rural cycling hours to get a driving license would help share a point of view maybe? They (cyclists and motorists) do not need to be segregated for their own safety. It does, has and will work all being traffic on the road together with a little basic consideration.0 -
Never, EVER cycle on the footpath. It is for pedestrians ONLY. There is no motorway on the Rock road, I cycle on it and the n11 almost every day. If you cycle safely and out from the footpath traffic will give you room. I don't agree with 100% driver culpability either, cyclists have to be responsible for their own actions. Culturally we are far, far away from the Dutch, and you could end up in a situation where a cyclist runs a light into a perfectly safe and legal turning car and the driver is at fault. We all need to take responsibility for our actions on the road.
I cannot stress enough how stupid, irresponsible and unnecessary cycling on the footpath is. It is never, ever ok. You cannot safely do it with pedestrians present as you don't know what way they are going to go . Also people find it intimidating, a silent cyclist whizzing inches by them at speed.
You are fine cycling on that road.
You are right about one thing and that is it's not a motorway, its just an extremely busy road with 2 lanes in both directions. I have edited my post accordingly.
However it is quite notable you totally disregarded the main point and spirit of my post altogether and wrapped up with some hysterical comments of your own. Oh and you finished off with 'you are fine cycling on that road' when I clearly stated I had been hit on that very road . I don't think we need to take this discussion with you any further.0 -
colossus-x wrote: »You are right about one thing and that is it's not a motorway, its just an extremely busy road with 2 lanes in both directions. I have edited my post accordingly.
However it is quite notable you totally disregarded the main point and spirit of my post altogether and wrapped up with some hysterical comments of your own. Oh and you finished off with 'you are fine cycling on that road' when I clearly stated I had been hit on that very road . I don't think we need to take this discussion with you any further.
Eh? You know it is illegal to cycle on the footpaths? And it is not ok to startle pedestrians? Or have no consideration for their safety by doing so?
I got hit by a car on the n11 years ago. It did not make me stop cycling on it. If you cycle safely you will be as fine as any safe cyclist on that road, hundreds of which make the journey on it every day without being hit. Yes you can't account for every vehicle on it, I have had a few close calls on it but I don't find it anymore dangerous than another major road into or out of the city. It is a busy road you are right about that. But that does not make it inherently dangerous.
If you feel too insecure to cycle on the road I would suggest building up your confidence somewhere quieter and working up to your commute on the Rock road. The footpath is not a legal or safe alternative to the road.
Back on topic, cycling on the footpath is one of the new FPN offences isn't it? It may cost you to continue cycling this way. It is an entirely justified offence IMO.
ETA cycling on the footpath is to be included in the list of FPN's according to sticky bottle:
"It is understood that as well as breaking red lights, among the offences to be part of the new system from launch date will be cycling the wrong way on roads and cycling on footpaths."
http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/cyclists-to-be-included-in-motoring-penalty-points-system-on-the-spot-fines-will-also-apply/0 -
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It's amazing the amount of people on the road that will quote "the law" to you without actually knowing it themselves. Neanderthals.
People will believe any nonsense no matter how ludicrous if it supports what they want to believe and they are willing to be as stupid as necessary to do so.
I used to wonder how someone who appears to be capable of acting like an intelligent person in one situation can seem to be a drooling moron in another. Eventually I realised that they are just being as stupid as they need to be to believe what it suits them to believe. In a totally unrelated example, "traffic congestion is caused by cyclists".0 -
colossus-x wrote:I also cycle a short distance for about 3 minutes to my gym everyday on the fairly wide footpath because I dont want do do the whole busy road,helmet, vis jacket etc when it's just such a short hop. I'll continue doing that was well - it would be daft not too.
You could just walk, which would presumably take 5 minutes rather than 3, would be perfectly legal and responsible, and wouldn't require a helmet etc. That you and others consider it "daft" to respect the law or pedestrians, and even see fit to boast about and justify it, is the origin of much of the anti cyclist sentiment out there. That sentiment does not help the case of more law abiding cyclists seeking proper cycling infrastructure.
These new fines are a good idea, but they should be at least €100, derisory fines send the wrong message. Hi-Viz is not the way to go, but a new 21st century definition of minimum lighting standards would be appropriate. With rechargeable batteries and LED lights, decent lighting is much easier than ever before.0 -
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It seems to me that while poor driving and cycling is about the same as it usually is, there is an increasing level of hostility being shown to cyclists. I see angry reactions weekly rather than daily from motorists.
I was accosted at a work due by a colleague berating me for the behaviour of 'cyclists'. I have had similar reaction from relatives.
The number of folks out there who believe that cyclists have no place on any road is nuts. There is no reasoning with these people - and some of the well trodden arguments on this thread are testament to that. Allied to this is a growing perception that cycling is borderline suicidal and only undertaken by maniacs with or endorphin fuelled thrill seekers. This is despite the popularity in cycling as a mode of transport and a sport. This is the point I can't really understand.
I am wondering aloud here - but maybe there is an advocacy role for CI to play. Affirming the positive reasons for cycling, that it is reasonably safe, convenient and effective way of commuting. Trying to get some positive PR that the more of us on the road then the less likely that car drivers are likely to be held up by other bulky traffic.
Maybe have a hug a cyclist day.0 -
CI do promote a National Bike week and I seem to remember there was also a cycle to work day?
( and I have to admit I drove to work that day ! 😬 )0 -
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I think there has been increasing hostility, both in terms of general attitude but also in risks taken, particularly when motorists believe they are being held up by cyclists. I've witnessed situations where a driver holds back on overtaking until its safe to do so only to get blasts of the horn from vehicles further back in the "queue" for not undertaking what may well be a risky manouever.It seems to me that while poor driving and cycling is about the same as it usually is, there is an increasing level of hostility being shown to cyclists. I see angry reactions weekly rather than daily from motorists.
I was accosted at a work due by a colleague berating me for the behaviour of 'cyclists'. I have had similar reaction from relatives.
I'm guessing a lot of it's down to the increase in motorised traffic over the last year or so, resulting in increasing delays and less patience when there is a clear target, such as a cyclist, to blame. When car usage was previously at these levels there were a lot less cyclists about meaning frustrated motorists probably only had other motorists to "blame"0 -
colossus-x wrote: »You are right about one thing and that is it's not a motorway, its just an extremely busy road with 2 lanes in both directions. I have edited my post accordingly.
However it is quite notable you totally disregarded the main point and spirit of my post altogether and wrapped up with some hysterical comments of your own. Oh and you finished off with 'you are fine cycling on that road' when I clearly stated I had been hit on that very road . I don't think we need to take this discussion with you any further.
Where about a on the rock road do you cycle ? Why not use the cycle lane that goes through the park and back of the village0 -
colossus-x wrote: »I heard on uk radio that other day that in Holland cark/bike collisions are always deemed the fault of the vehicle driver without exception , no matter what. And it works because it make the drives more aware/vigilant. That's the type of laws we need here instead of these pathetic little measures that have been introduced.
It's not quite that. The driver is assumed to be at fault, but he or she can produce evidence or witnesses to show the cyclist was at fault.0 -
colossus-x wrote: »There are extremly wide footpaths on the Rock Road heading to Dun Laoghaire on some spots. I will always cycle on them (at times ) no matter what . The alternative is the extremely busy road where once one motorist hit me with their side mirror to my right hand. No damage done but it was scary. I also cycle a short distance for about 3 minutes to my gym everyday on the fairly wide footpath because I dont want do do the whole busy road,helmet, vis jacket etc when it's just such a short hop. I'll continue doing that was well - it would be daft not too. I have plenty lights on my bike so am okay there but I don't always wear a high vis jacket and neither do I feel I should, when I have plenty lights that is.
It's crazy man - very poor excuses. I will occasionally hop up on the path, if it is empty and there are no humans in sight, when there is no other way around stopped traffic. And that's a pretty poor excuse for me, but it's a bit better than yours.0 -
Ciaran Cuffe's take on the proposal
http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/new-fines-for-cyclists-higher-than-fine-for-parking-car-in-cycle-lane/The Green Party has strongly criticised plans by the Government to introduce a range of new offences specifically for cyclists accompanied by €50 on the spot fines and court appearances.
Former Dáil Deputy and Minister for State, Cllr Ciarán Cuffe said the focus should be on making the roads, especially in towns and cities, more cycling friendly instead of pursuing cyclists with a new system of offences and penalties.
He believed the fact the mooted fines for cyclists were €10 higher than for motorists who park in cycle lanes underlined where the Government’s priorities were when devising the new idea.
“This seems to be a ham-fisted approach at trying to solve the problem of dangerous cycling,” he said the Department of Transports plans for later in the year.
The new system targeting cyclists will mirror the fixed charge notice scheme introduced for drivers.
Like the drivers’ system, a small number of offences will be included in the new policy to target cyclists at first but more will be added, including newly created offences.
Cyclists found breaking the laws will be subjected to a fine when stopped by gardai.
Like the system for motorists, they will be informed via a notice in the post how much the fine is and when it is due.0 -
Ciaran Cuffe's take on the proposal
http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/new-fines-for-cyclists-higher-than-fine-for-parking-car-in-cycle-lane/
I was a card carrying member of the Green party for years. The problem is that despite their best of intentions, it is often the case that no rational thought or research goes into alot of their suggestions, surprised they are not more popular with such a modus operandi.0 -
It seems to me that while poor driving and cycling is about the same as it usually is, there is an increasing level of hostility being shown to cyclists. I see angry reactions weekly rather than daily from motorists.
I was accosted at a work due by a colleague berating me for the behaviour of 'cyclists'. I have had similar reaction from relatives.
The number of folks out there who believe that cyclists have no place on any road is nuts. There is no reasoning with these people - and some of the well trodden arguments on this thread are testament to that. Allied to this is a growing perception that cycling is borderline suicidal and only undertaken by maniacs with or endorphin fuelled thrill seekers. This is despite the popularity in cycling as a mode of transport and a sport. This is the point I can't really understand.
I have a friend in the country who I go for spins with in his car from time to time. He is a terrible driver I've realized. He is constantly berating other driver, effin and blinding at them over nothing. The last time I was with him in the car he was driving at speed telling me to look at something in a field to the left while he was looking at it himself , his eyes off the road. I had to scream at him to look at the road to which he responded 'your just not used to it'. My heart was in my mouth. When we were on the way home he slammed his foot on the break because one of those new electronic speed signs was red, or however they work, obviously going way to fast. It was a winding road and I just knew we were going way over the limit. He takes country road bends without an ounce of caution and loves to do this show-offy thing of driving at speed and rapidly decelerating by applying the brakes coming to a sudden stop when he's reached his destination.
So taking all that into account about his driving...lately he's been saying things to me about cyclists leaving me with the impression he hates cyclists with a passion. I was telling him casually that I had been out for a cycle on a certain road and he said 'but that's the most likely road your going to have an accident on', ie get hit with a car - as if it had happened it would be my own fault ??? He constantly bemoaning cyclists for something or other at every opportunity and my point is - coming for him THAT IS A BIT RICH !
So that is an example personality profile of the type of completely ignorant person we cyclists have to contend with, and they seem to be on the rise as you quite rightly observed @ROK ON.Where about a on the rock road do you cycle ? Why not use the cycle lane that goes through the park and back of the village
I do use that as well.It's crazy man - very poor excuses. I will occasionally hop up on the path, if it is empty and there are no humans in sight, when there is no other way around stopped traffic. And that's a pretty poor excuse for me, but it's a bit better than yours.
Well you won't be able to do that anymore - don't you think that's' crazy. I wasn't making excuses at all. I'm saying I do it because I like it. Prolly didn't make that clear. There are very nice views from the footpath there and to me on a nice days it's bliss to able to cycle casually slowly on a footpath in places.0 -
It seems to me that while poor driving and cycling is about the same as it usually is, there is an increasing level of hostility being shown to cyclists. I see angry reactions weekly rather than daily from motorists.
I was accosted at a work due by a colleague berating me for the behaviour of 'cyclists'. I have had similar reaction from relatives.
The number of folks out there who believe that cyclists have no place on any road is nuts. There is no reasoning with these people - and some of the well trodden arguments on this thread are testament to that. Allied to this is a growing perception that cycling is borderline suicidal and only undertaken by maniacs with or endorphin fuelled thrill seekers. This is despite the popularity in cycling as a mode of transport and a sport. This is the point I can't really understand.
I am wondering aloud here - but maybe there is an advocacy role for CI to play. Affirming the positive reasons for cycling, that it is reasonably safe, convenient and effective way of commuting. Trying to get some positive PR that the more of us on the road then the less likely that car drivers are likely to be held up by other bulky traffic.
Maybe have a hug a cyclist day.
Absolutely. I think this is the nub of the matter, attitudes have hardened and empathy and consideration have fled. I have had people tell me I'm mad to cycle, and merrily point out the myriad of imagined slights cyclists perpetrate on the rest of traffic.
Hug a cyclist day - brilliant! It may adversely affect punctuality…!0 -
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colossus-x wrote: »I have a friend in the country who I go for spins with in his car from time to time. He is a terrible driver Eve realized. He is constantly berating other driver, effin and blinding at them over nothing. The last time I was with him in the car he was driving at speed telling me to look at something in a field to the left while he was looking at it himself , his eyes off the road. I had to scream at him to look at the road to which he responded 'your just not used to it'. My heart was in my mouth. When we were on the way home he slammed his foot on the break because one of those new electronic speed signs was red, or however they work, obviously going way to fast. It was a winding road and I just knew we were going way over the limit. He takes country road bends without an ounce of caution and loves to do this show-offy thing of driving at speed and rapidly decelerating by applying the brakes coming to a sudden stop when he's reached his destination.
Sounds like a really sound chap, I'd say a judge will be interested in hearing his views which is an inevitability if he continues the way he is going.0 -
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the most recent story i've heard of comically bad driving is about a friend of my MIL.colossus-x wrote: »I have a friend in the country who I go for spins with in his car from time to time. He is a terrible driver Eve realized. He is constantly berating other driver, effin and blinding at them over nothing.
she was giving a lift to the MIL recently and commented 'everyone is very friendly. they're all flashing at me. i wonder if they think they know me?'
MIL: 'no, patricia, you're driving with your full beams on, you really should switch them to dipped'
'dipped? sure i'm blind as a bat, i wouldn't be able to see anything with them dipped'.0 -
There was an article on here from there head of transport (can't remember her name), if the driver can show the cyclist was at fault they will be blamed, just so happens that in the majority of cases it is the drivers fault.colossus-x wrote: »I heard on uk radio that other day that in Holland cark/bike collisions are always deemed the fault of the vehicle driver without exception , no matter what.
I went down to my homeplace the weekend before christmas and was giving a lift to my brothers friend. He kept making comments about me not liking the throttle (despite being at the speed limit whenever I was on a straight stretch with clear line of sight) or I'd normally be tipping along here at 100/120 (it was an 80 zone). He then warned me of where the speed camera zone was, but said not to worry after we passed as there wasn't a hope I was over the limit as if somehow this was a character flaw.Sounds like a really sound chap, I'd say a judge will be interested in hearing his views which is an inevitability if he continues the way he is going.
I know the road well from my youth, there are a few sinks on corners and I know of at least 3 deaths on it (one a close friend), all partially related to speed (and other factors). I certainly wasn't going to test my prowess after not having driven it in 10 years. I wasn't slow, wasn't holding up traffic, but somehow in his mind I am a terrible driver.
I have had other passengers in my car before who criticise me for looking in the rear view mirror to much FFS
I don't think it's a majority but there are some drivers who don't understand the significance of being a safe and prudent driver over a good driver and can't separate the two. I am an OK driver, I have my flaws I am sure but overall I believe I am safe, I know which lane to take on a roundabout, which lane to drive in on a motorway, what a red light signifies and I stop, I progress whenever it is safe for myself and other road users around me to do so. Doesn't mean I could do a 180 spin at 80k an hour and slam into reverse like a pro stunt driver, but like i said, I am not good, I am safe and reasonable.
I think FPNs are a prudent and simple way to drive up obedience in some, it won't stop some cyclists breaking the rules but then they don't stop some motorists either. The hope is that as people fall into line there will be a societal pressure to follow suit.0 -
colossus-x wrote: »You are right about one thing and that is it's not a motorway, its just an extremely busy road with 2 lanes in both directions. I have edited my post accordingly.
However it is quite notable you totally disregarded the main point and spirit of my post altogether and wrapped up with some hysterical comments of your own. Oh and you finished off with 'you are fine cycling on that road' when I clearly stated I had been hit on that very road . I don't think we need to take this discussion with you any further.
The Rock Road has only one lane and a bus lane in both directions except for a short bit near willow Park which has 2 lanes but still has a bus lane. Maybe you are confusing it with Temple Road and Frascati Road which do have 2 lanes of traffic but are currently being modified to include a nice wide cycle lane due to be completed end of Feb. The piece completed so far is to a reasonably high standard.0 -
But we don't separate trucks and cars on motorways, despite the fact that car drivers are much more vulnerable.
This is because we hold truck drivers to a high standard of driving and recognise that having segregated truck lanes on motorways would be extremely expensive and/or create dangerous problems at junctions.
So cars can travel two abreast in front of trucks? Cars can weave through static trucks at a junction? The above is simply inaccurate. Cars and trucks travel at a similar speed also. A truck can wait behind a car travelling at reasonable speed without issue. No other vehicle can be expected to wait behind a bicycle for any longer than it takes to overtake them safely. Clearly, there is a big difference.0 -
MayoAreMagic wrote: »So cars can travel two abreast in front of trucks? Cars can weave through static trucks at a junction? The above is simply inaccurate. Cars and trucks travel at a similar speed also. A truck can wait behind a car travelling at reasonable speed without issue. No other vehicle can be expected to wait behind a bicycle for any longer than it takes to overtake them safely. Clearly, there is a big difference.
Aren't trucks, HGVs and buses governed? Meaning they can't travel at car speeds, especially on motorways.0 -
Just thinking about CramCycle's point about driving skills. I am an occasional driver (about a dozen days a year), and I think I went for nearly ten years without driving at one stage. I think that despite my very mediocre driving skills (when I get very tired I stall the car still, so I have to take a rest befdore then) I'm safer than most, partly because I'm cautious, but mostly because I haven't the exposure to everyday irritations to have developed the extraordinary impatience that seems to go with frequent driving.
I mean, I've been beeped aggressively for slowing down on the main road before turning to go around a blind corner and enter a hoiusing estate with children out on the road.0 -
Cars Would travel two abreast in front of trucks if they could.
Cars would weave through static trucks at a junction if they could.
The only reason they don't is because they physically can't! Its certainly not because of fear of penalty points or Garda enforcement.0 -
Also thinking about the "blind as a bat" driver above. There are certainly drivers with uncorrectable vision defects on the road who are allowed to continue out of compassion. This is misplaced compassion.0
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07Lapierre wrote: »Cars Would travel two abreast in front of trucks if they could.
Cars would weave through static trucks at a junction if they could.
The only reason they don't is because they physically can't! Its certainly not because of fear of penalty points or Garda enforcement.
Same goes for red light discipline, once one car stops.0 -
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motorbikes weave through traffic and often travel two abreast in front of trucks.0
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