Motorways, greenways, bypasses, and railways (off-topic posts from disused WRC thread

end of the road

MOD EDIT: First 50 posts were off-topic posts from the disused WRC thread.

Most posts are not mainly about WRC disused section, Moving a whole load of posts is not easy and is far from an exact science so please excuse any posts which are clearly about the WRC disused section.

--- END OF MOD NOTE ---

eastwest wrote: »

When the Gort-Tuam motorway is finished, the private bus operators will wipe the floor with Irish Rail, delivering a far faster and cheaper service than the railway ever could.

which shows how much of a joke public transport is in this country when a bus at 100 KPH is faster then a train. i'm not sure what that is in MPH, think around 70 MPH? a proper rail link built to modern standards between galway and limerick is what should have happened, such a link is viable. however the current route is not. hopefully limerick ennis won't be taken with it when ennis athenry ever goes. the people down there worked hard for that little service and it would be a shem to see it go because of the failure of ennis athenry

eastwest

cgcsb wrote: »

Agreed they could've campaigned for a new high spec railway with a design journey time of little over an hour ensuring long term dominance over road based options.

Even if a government decided to build a high-speed railway to serve a thinly-populated region, they wouldn't do it on a twisting, poorly designed light railway such as the northern section of the WRC, or through the bog between Athenry and Tuam. If there was need for a high-speed line (due to some unimaginable boost in population numbers) they would have allowed for it along the motorway reservation. They didn't, because it isn't needed or wanted, and they won't waste taxpayers' money on it.
If they could get away politically with closing Ennis-Athenry, they would probably do it at this stage. I'd say they rue the day that they listened to a few spoofers with back-of-the-envelope calculations about passenger numbers and mythical freight tonnages.

end of the road

eastwest wrote: »

Not a chance. The motorway will kill this stone dead, but even before the motorway project the Tuam-Galway rail option was a dead duck.
Put in simple terms, if I lived in Tuam and wanted to commute to a job in Galway, would I use a slow forty-minute train that took me to Galway city centre where I would have to wait for a bus to take me another twenty minutes to my job, or would I take a direct bus (or drive) from Tuam that would drop me at the door of my work in twenty minutes?

if you can get parking drive. there is no point in taking a bus when your using the road anyway and you can get parking. may as well drive yourself in your own comfortable space.

eastwest wrote: »

The western rail corridor (so-called) closed because of lack of use. since the closure of various sections, car ownership has increased, bus travel has been liberalised and become much cheaper, roads have vastly improved

but its still road transport which will never be properly quick enough. it will do down there because people probably mostly use cars over busses, but its nothing to be excited over.

eastwest wrote: »

We don't live in the 1950s any more, and infrastructure that did the job then won't do it now.

no, but many countries had motor ways in the 1960s. they are not exactly anything to shout about either, and like an old rail alinement, they aren't quick like a properly built rail line can be.

eastwest wrote: »

A Galway-Tuam rail link is a nonsense, the stuff of fantasy.

its not nonsense. its not going to happen, but campaining for it and the government saying no isn't nonsense. its just one of many things that happen in a democratic country. if properly built tuam galway could even have worked, but it wouldn't have been and wouldn't be, so best to leave it.

eastwest wrote: »

It is now clear that government understands that, and is no longer willing to pander to a handful of rail enthusiasts with no grasp of economics, or reality.

the government never pandered to a handful of rail enthusiasts with no grasp of economics or reality though. a campain was set up to reopen ennis athenry, the government made the decisian to do it. not everything has to be economic either, all though the money could have been better spent. again, the government made the decisian to reopen it for their own reasons. west on track just campained and got it. they shouldn't have but they did.

end of the road

eastwest wrote: »

Even if a government decided to build a high-speed railway to serve a thinly-populated region, they wouldn't do it on a twisting, poorly designed light railway such as the northern section of the WRC, or through the bog between Athenry and Tuam. If there was need for a high-speed line (due to some unimaginable boost in population numbers) they would have allowed for it along the motorway reservation. They didn't, because it isn't needed or wanted, and they won't waste taxpayers' money on it.
If they could get away politically with closing Ennis-Athenry, they would probably do it at this stage. I'd say they rue the day that they listened to a few spoofers with back-of-the-envelope calculations about passenger numbers and mythical freight tonnages.

no, they didn't allow for it along the motor way reservation because that would have required forward planning. they won't waste tax payers money on it because of their own agendas, not because they don't want to waste money on it (lets face it they are happy to do so when it suits them) . the current government would probably shut the lot if they could never mind ennis athenry. the government reopened it because they wanted to reopen it, if they didn't want it they wouldn't have done so. they did it because they probably believed there would be votes in it for them. nothing to do with spoofers with back-of-the-envelope calculations about passenger numbers and mythical freight tonnages i'm afraid

corktina

end of the road wrote: »

no, they didn't allow for it along the motor way reservation because that would have required forward planning. they won't waste tax payers money on it because of their own agendas, not because they don't want to waste money on it (lets face it they are happy to do so when it suits them) . the current government would probably shut the lot if they could never mind ennis athenry. the government reopened it because they wanted to reopen it, if they didn't want it they wouldn't have done so. they did it because they probably believed there would be votes in it for them. nothing to do with spoofers with back-of-the-envelope calculations about passenger numbers and mythical freight tonnages i'm afraid

you can't run a railway line along a motorway formation unless the cost of the motorway is significantly raised. That's because of the gradient profile. Trains can't cope with the same hills that a Motorway can and it would be very wasteful to build a motorway to a rail gradient profile.

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

you can't run a railway line along a motorway formation unless the cost of the motorway is significantly raised. That's because of the gradient profile. Trains can't cope with the same hills that a Motorway can and it would be very wasteful to build a motorway to a rail gradient profile.

as may be, but it still doesn't change the fact that the government would have made the decisian about the line on the basis of their own reasons and not the wishes of everyone else either for or against

corktina

end of the road wrote: »

as may be, but it still doesn't change the fact that the government would have made the decisian about the line on the basis of their own reasons and not the wishes of everyone else either for or against

or in other words, they got what they asked for and should have asked for more.

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

or in other words, they got what they asked for and should have asked for more.

maybe. maybe not. one wouldn't know with those governing this country

Grandeeod

corktina wrote: »

or in other words, they got what they asked for and should have asked for more.

The reasons for not reopening this basket case were clearly outlined in April 2004 when a certain group of people pulled the plug and publicised it. Subsequently it was all discussed in a different thread that was locked. Ironically that thread was right and so were many contributors. Deja vu and all that. Back then it was all about the economics and resulting damage. These days its all about a greenway. The greenway will always be a by product, but the lasting damage caused to rail development in Ireland will be the ultimate result of this folly and its supporters. Never forget that.

corktina

i know, I was there

westtip

Grandeeod wrote: »

The reasons for not reopening this basket case were clearly outlined in April 2004 when a certain group of people pulled the plug and publicised it. Subsequently it was all discussed in a different thread that was locked. Ironically that thread was right and so were many contributors. Deja vu and all that. Back then it was all about the economics and resulting damage. These days its all about a greenway. The greenway will always be a by product, but the lasting damage caused to rail development in Ireland will be the ultimate result of this folly and its supporters. Never forget that.

Indeed Grandeod, The game is up. WOT did untold damage to rail development in Ireland, they really thought they were doing the best for the west, but they weren't, as Platform 11 clearly exposed all those year ago. However, I wouldn't call the greenway a by-product. I was writing on the old thread about the economic benefits of the greenway idea long before even the Great Western Greenway was opened and before greenways became part of the public consciousness. My original thought for a greenway on this route came when I was driving on the N17 between Tubbercurry and Charlestown one day and looking to my left saw the old railway and thought that is never going to re-open why on earth don't they put a cycle path on it, I was unaware of the word "greenway" at the time. A friend of mine sent me in an article in the Irish Times back in 1997, 17 years ago, written by Tourism Economics Lecturer Felim O'Rourke, Felim had mapped out all the old railways in the West saying they should be a network of cycle paths.

Those of us who have campaigned for the greenway have done so not to oppose the railway for any reason of spite - but to offer a new economic corridor on the route, one that will work for a fraction of the cost of the railway and will be used by 20-fold more people daily. I have got many people to thank for backing the greenway campaign, which started off with one person planting an acorn on boards.ie and a letter to the Irish Times. One journalist, lobbyist and campaigner in particular has helped more than anyone I could mention. The many supporters who have come to support the idea virally on Facebook and here on boards, have all helped immensely.

At one point WOT wrote to every Councillor in the west accusing me of providing misinformation to the councillors, I was villified and it was said I was trying to "take over" the Western Rail Corridor. The Western Rail Corridor is a public strip of land that belongs to the public, any member of the public is entitled to express a view about public property. WOT never saw it as such. The railway belonged to them and their idea was the only one that would be allowed to be debated. They did not like to be challenged by me, they did not like to be challenged about their ideas by Platform 11. They reacted with personal attacks.

Hopefully the announcements and public statements by the Minister and An Taoiseach in the past two weeks will open the new chapter on the Western Rail Corridor, and soon we can have a greenway thread reporting on all the small businesses opening up on the route. A million or so words later here we are at the end of 2014, ten years later, two very long threads later, and there is light at the end of the tunnel. There has been bitterness and at times personal abuse in this debate, If I made any untoward comments in that time to anyone I do apologize. No personal comments are acceptable. People have ideas and debate them, that is what happens in a democracy. The ideas I have espoused for so long on these electronic pages have I think finally been accepted. Do I take pleasure in that? Not particularly, there is no gain for me, it has taken a lot of my intellectual energy, but at least I can say, I had an idea and people listened

Happy new year to all. This is my end of year message!

cgcsb

eastwest wrote: »

Even if a government decided to build a high-speed railway to serve a thinly-populated region, they wouldn't do it on a twisting, poorly designed light railway such as the northern section of the WRC, or through the bog between Athenry and Tuam. If there was need for a high-speed line (due to some unimaginable boost in population numbers) they would have allowed for it along the motorway reservation. They didn't, because it isn't needed or wanted, and they won't waste taxpayers' money on it.
If they could get away politically with closing Ennis-Athenry, they would probably do it at this stage. I'd say they rue the day that they listened to a few spoofers with back-of-the-envelope calculations about passenger numbers and mythical freight tonnages.

I said high spec not high speed. 140-160 km/hr running would provide an attractive alternative to road.

westtip

Grandeeod wrote: »

Im not dissing the idea of a Greenway. I'm merely referring to it as a by-product of a disused railway. That's what it is.

I know what you mean GD. We have to thank Prime Minister Balfour back in the 1890s for building all these railways and future routes as greenways. Balfour truly was a man of vision!

Geuze

eastwest wrote: »

When the G[URL="file://\\gort-Tuam"]ort-Tuam[/URL] motorway is finished, the private bus operators will wipe the floor with Irish Rail, delivering a far faster and cheaper service than the railway ever could.
It's all over for this politically-inspired railway route that never had any basis in reality. Time for everyone to move on.

Your statement suggests a future of no railways in Ireland, just motorways, with a society ruled by traffic / cars.

Is there any hope for railways in Ireland?

Carawaystick

westtip wrote: »

The thread is called Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections), but here is an answer to your specific questions

It takes about 50 minutes to get from Athenry to Ennis on the train, tops I would say this about 40 miles.
It is single tracked the whole way. The full journey from Limerick to Galway takes just under two hours timetables vary but its about 1 hr 55 mins. (the xpress bus x51 takes one hour twenty minutes) The bus is 35 minutes quicker and runs 10 times a day.

It cost 110 million to re-engineer and re-open this track. Each train carries an average of about 9 (nine) passengers per train, the original forecast was for an average of about 40 passengers per train.
Subvention per journey has been estimated at about €85 per passenger journey.

I was being facetious, but you've summed up the situation
perfectly.

Carawaystick

cgcsb wrote: »

I said high spec not high speed. 140-160 km/hr running would provide an attractive alternative to road.

Where is there sustained 160kmh rail in Ireland?

let alone between Athenry and Tuam.

eastwest

Carawaystick wrote: »

Where is there sustained 160kmh rail in Ireland?

let alone between Athenry and Tuam.

In the minds of a small group of railway anoraks who travel under the WOT banner.

corktina

shur don't you know all Dublin services at 100 mph all the way, except those from the Wesht.

With that 106 million invested in the Galway Dublin line instead of the WRC, some real improvement may have been possible

cgcsb

Carawaystick wrote: »

Where is there sustained 160kmh rail in Ireland?<br />
<br />
let alone between Athenry and Tuam.

<br />
<br />
Short parts of the Dublin Cork route. It is my view That all the Dublin to regional city routes should be accommodating 200km/h in the future. When building the Ennis Athenry section we had a relatively blank canvis. It should have been designed to accommodate 200km/h, with 160 being achievable with current rolling stock.<br />
<br />
This may have mitigated the need for a 700 million on a motorway and served as a model for future rail development.

Instead we rebuilt a Victorian railway that was deliberately uncompetitive with road, destined for failure.

westtip

L1011 wrote: »

Very. Lowest cost construction possible - which is why it isn't practical to even consider it as a modern railway, route speed wise. If they wanted a road-competitive railway from Sligo to Galway they'd need to build a new alignment.

Which is what has been said all along, and is what WOT never saw. They were always campaigning for bad infrastructure that would not deliver, constantly they have talked about this "vital piece of infrastructure" but its not because as many of us have said tarting up the old railway by laying new tracks was never going to deliver good infrastructure but merely the reinvention of the old line, with poor alignments, gradients and a poor route choice. Asking for the old line to be re-opened was a sop. Ennis Athenry was as LV said "built for entirely political reasons". Had WOT campaigned for a true WRC going Limerick, Shannon Airport, Galway; they would never have got it due to the land costs for a new route. Using the old route created the slow train that was inevitable and the failure that was inevitable. They were sold a sop, but at least the failure (predicted by many at the start) of the old rail route, has finally put pay to any more nonsensical talk about the railway being opened north of Athenry. 2014 was the end of the Western Rail corridor, this parrot is most definitely dead. 2015 is a new beginning. Happy New Year Folks.:D

corktina

cgcsb wrote: »

<br />
<br />
Short parts of the Dublin Cork route. It is my view That all the Dublin to regional city routes should be accommodating 200km/h in the future. When building the Ennis Athenry section we had a relatively blank canvis. It should have been designed to accommodate 200km/h, with 160 being achievable with current rolling stock.<br />
<br />
This may have mitigated the need for a 700 million on a motorway and served as a model for future rail development.

Instead we rebuilt a Victorian railway that was deliberately uncompetitive with road, destined for failure.

certainly 200km/h on the majority of Dubln to Cork should be the case , with double track, and also to Belfast. It's not so easy on the other routes,

BoatMad

corktina wrote: »

it would have gone a long way towards upgrading the lines that do have a chance of competing with the Motorways.

100million is a drop in the ocean to upgrade rail instrastructure in any meaningful way, its hardly enough to subvent CIE losses to one year.

It a hopeless case. IR is merely a bunch of public servants whose goal is efficiency. 100% efficiency of course is a completely closed railway network. Passengers, customers, service , etc what that !

cgcsb

GerardKeating wrote: »

But there was no "blank canvas", unless you want some major CPO's, there were restricted to the existing route alignment.

Of course but that's how things SHOULD work. You start with a problem say the need for transport between Limerick and Galway, you look at options, of which restoring old infrastructure should be considered, and then you select an option and build. We haven't done that in this case, we've opened a railway unsuitable for modern transport while simultaneously sinking about 700mil into a motorway to connect two regional cities with metropolitan populations under 100k. That is not a coherent policy, one starts with a blank canvas.

cgcsb

westtip wrote: »

Dont you realise that WOT always campaigned to get the old railway re-opened, they would have been laughed out of court if they suggested a new route which would have put the cost through the roof. The old route was always going to deliver a heap of crap, it wasn't deliberately uncompetitive - it was exactly what WOT asked for - the old line to be re-opened they got what they asked for it failed now lets get on with doing something useful with the line.

We're spending 700mil on a motorway to Tuam, a new railway alignment, or partially new rather, is a substantially lower cost. Surely it should merit consideration to meet the transport need between the two cities.

BoatMad

cgcsb wrote: »

Of course but that's how things SHOULD work. You start with a problem say the need for transport between Limerick and Galway, you look at options, of which restoring old infrastructure should be considered, and then you select an option and build. We haven't done that in this case, we've opened a railway unsuitable for modern transport while simultaneously sinking about 700mil into a motorway to connect two regional cities with metropolitan populations under 100k. That is not a coherent policy, one starts with a blank canvas.

The fact is that more then 95% of transport is going by road. Hence it makes perfect sense to build a high capacity road, the fact is . it will be used

Its complete fantasy land to suggest a similar experience for a rail line, Even if it was super fast, it would not displace the need for a high capacity road.

Even if you accept a rail link, building high speed line rail link, which inherently has less flexibility then a road link, means that it would be ,massively under utilised.

I just don't see any merit in your argument, the issue with ANY WRC isn't the route, its the unsuitability of rail transport in a small underpopulated island.

This is to ignore that giving IR any more to run is hastening rail death in Ireland.

westtip

cgcsb wrote: »

We're spending 700mil on a motorway to Tuam, a new railway alignment, or partially new rather, is a substantially lower cost. Surely it should merit consideration to meet the transport need between the two cities.

I accept the motorway is overspecced and overkill for the population in the west; good quality seamless road, dual c/w or even 2+1 (remember that) would be perfectly ok, or even the single lane with wide hard shoulder, but a seamless road that bypasses the likes of Claregalway is essential. Transport needs in the west of ireland, due to our housing planning and dispersed population and communities is totally driven by road transport, like it or not, that is a fact of life, a new alignment for a railway may be worth considering, the existing alignment though is not suitable for a modern railway to deliver an acceptable journey time.

end of the road

BoatMad wrote: »

The argument about road types is not really relevant to the rail argument. merely because we spend XXX on roads doesnt mean we should automatically spend yyy on rail. Thats was the fallacy of the greens and why IR suddenly got millions to waste on railcars having just previously spent millions on 100mph+ locomotives

its not about spending the same on rail as roads. at least not for me. its about recognizing that a one or the other mentality is outdated.

BoatMad wrote: »

The issue is justification. There is no justification for new rail lines in ireland, we can hardly fund the existing system, which ultimately boils down to the inability of Intercity rail to attract large numbers of passengers particularly in smaller population areas.

the rail line to navan is justifiable. i'd agree thats about the only reopening that is though. don't forget the problem of attracting people to intercity rail is also down to IE. they have a major part to play.

BoatMad wrote: »

Much as a rail fan like me, hates to admit it. Motorways and good quality roads will provide significant benefit to large numbers of travellers. Expensive rail upgrades in reality target a very small proportion of travellers. ( outside of high capacity commuter areas)

i think that is the way everywhere though outside any major city, all though in other countries that share is higher i'd agree. but rail outside cities will always have a smaller market share then road.

BoatMad wrote: »

Arguably one could argue that the greater Dublin areas commuter rail, more LUAS, DART inter connector, are all ham strung by rail budget divisions in fiascos like WRC, intercity upgrades etc.

i'd say thats down to political will, the government don't have the money at the moment, but don't have the guts to say it will definitely go ahead once times get good.

BoatMad wrote: »

The fact is that WRC and others lines show, once Ireland built high quality motorways, really it has spelled the end of intercity rail transport. The Dublin Galway rail line issues show this.
I mean if you shut the waterford dublin intercity rail link, you simply wouldn't notice the extra loading on the adjacent motorway. The same is true for Dublin Limerick.

actually at the moment you would for most of the waterford line, it is well used. IE would rather if it wasn't though. it seems to lose out to other lines in terms of capacity. that certainly won't attract custom, and probably does cause costom to leave. i'd imagine it definitely will do now there is new express bus services along that route, but we will have to wait and see how they do. you could turn out to be right yet.

BoatMad wrote: »

The fact remains, WRC issues are not really related to the " alignment " , thats a red herring, short of a massive ridiculous high speed 100mph+ line, point to point journeys for a traveller will always be better on a motorway and high quality road network. Ireland simply has little or no congestion once outside a few specific urban pinch points.

we don't now thankfully. in saying that, i'm mindful that we might have it, maybe not in the short term future, but the long term future.

BoatMad wrote: »

Rail simply doesnt offer the inter city traveller any particular advantages

in general in this country, probably not, but it could. a train in theory can offer a lot, but whether the company running wishes to offer it, or the customer wants it, well, we'l all have a different opinion on that. in my case, it offers me comfort, something i can't get from a bus. others are different though.

BoatMad wrote: »

has some severe dis-advantages

i think that the advantages or disadvantages will depend on what you are looking for.

BoatMad wrote: »

thats not helped by decades of mis-management, mis-diected investment and management by civil service and external "strategic" reviews

no disagreement from me on that.

BoatMad

end of the road wrote: »

its not about spending the same on rail as roads. at least not for me. its about recognizing that a one or the other mentality is outdated.

Too much railway funding has been justified on soviet style 5 year or 10 year outlandish plans, which get quietly dumped as it's transpires the losses keep climbing. With a limited public budget, the money must be used to greatest effect. In the transport arena, that's not heavy rail. ( in Ireland )

the rail line to navan is justifiable. i'd agree thats about the only reopening that is though. don't forget the problem of attracting people to intercity rail is also down to IE. they have a major part to play.

It's not really,the intercity navan Dublin road is capable. , what's needed is the ability for people to use commuter rail from motorway park and rides. Furthermore without massive investment further train paths into Connolly are very difficult to secure and without quad tracking and re-signalling , would result in commuter rail congestion

i think that is the way everywhere though outside any major city, all though in other countries that share is higher i'd agree. but rail outside cities will always have a smaller market share then road.

In Ireland it's not a " smaller market share " it's a minuscule fraction , now that IR has virtually abandoned freight we don't even have that buttress. If you take Dublin commuters out of the numbers , the railways Are carrying small numbers proportionally. Furthermore the railcars while seemingly offering efficiencies also mean IR has a very fixed and restrictive fleet and now can't even deliver good intercity quality travel on many services.

i'd say thats down to political will, the government don't have the money at the moment, but don't have the guts to say it will definitely go ahead once times get good.

Much as I hate to say this the , cie and IR have killed irish railways. The patient is now on permanent kidney dialysis and soon will be on full life support. Soon the decision to turn off the " machine " will be taken. The motorway network will expand , private bus services will increasingly exploit that fact. IR has completely failed to upgrade the network consistently and has now destroyed so much capacity and service ability , that the patient is terminal.

actually at the moment you would for most of the waterford line, it is well used. IE would rather if it wasn't though. it seems to lose out to other lines in terms of capacity. that certainly won't attract custom, and probably does cause costom to leave. i'd imagine it definitely will do now there is new express bus services along that route, but we will have to wait and see how they do. you could turn out to be right yet.

The 2013 strategic rail review does t agree with you, speeds and services have fallen , track south of Kilkenny , in particular, is in a terrible state , money wasted on railcars and WRC and other vanity projects rather then simple maintaining the network to a consistent level.

Ultimately this is the next "Nenagh" ( for a city with a once massive rail infrastructure it's a sorry sight. )

in general in this country, probably not, but it could. a train in theory can offer a lot, but whether the company running wishes to offer it, or the customer wants it, well, we'l all have a different opinion on that. in my case, it offers me comfort, something i can't get from a bus. others are different though.



i think that the advantages or disadvantages will depend on what you are

I agree that intercity train services can be far superior to buses, a fact IR has chosen to ignore, in its quest to convert the whole networks to Dart levels of accommodation and passenger experience.

Equally trying to reach high speeds to cork while the rest of the network falls apart will simply kill the whole patient. IR keeps parading its star child while the rest of the family are sleeping in the gutter

But the choice is not train versus bus. I would argue that the majority of travellers outside of students and OAPS probably have cars anyway, but choose to use the train. That decision is increasingly less intuitive especially as in car automation increases.


Ultimately rail has " no absolute right to exist " , the railways were formed to provide a commercial transport service, built largely by private capital. We no longer carry sea freight or passengers by sail for a reason. If we cannot attract passengers in reasonable numbers to rail, then the tax payers is subsidising a very expensive and elitist travel service.

end of the road

BoatMad wrote: »

why ?

BoatMad wrote: »

explain ?

luas is 4 foot 8

BoatMad

end of the road wrote: »

luas is 4 foot 8

I know I know, standard gauge, just a brain fart , never even saw it when I reread it. my bad.

BoatMad

end of the road wrote: »

luas is 4 foot 8

actually 4'8 & 1/2

cgcsb

westtip wrote: »

I accept the motorway is overspecced and overkill for the population in the west; good quality seamless road, dual c/w or even 2+1 (remember that) would be perfectly ok, or even the single lane with wide hard shoulder, but a seamless road that bypasses the likes of Claregalway is essential. Transport needs in the west of ireland, due to our housing planning and dispersed population and communities is totally driven by road transport, like it or not, that is a fact of life, a new alignment for a railway may be worth considering, the existing alignment though is not suitable for a modern railway to deliver an acceptable journey time.

indeed, an improved road with suitable capacity and overtaking lanes where required, coupled with a properly aligned railway with manageable gradients could have been achieved for less than half a billion. Instead we get a motorway that'll be lightly used and an impractical rail link that is only of use to sight seers, oaps and rail enthusiasts.

BoatMad

cgcsb wrote: »

indeed, an improved road with suitable capacity and overtaking lanes where required, coupled with a properly aligned railway with manageable gradients could have been achieved for less than half a billion. Instead we get a motorway that'll be lightly used and an impractical rail link that is only of use to sight seers, oaps and rail enthusiasts.

You cannot compare high quality dual carriage style roads and railways. The basic falsehood is that there is not in any way even a half assed justification for a Limerick Galway service, especially one that stops all over the shop.

Significantly changing the alignment, ( with presumably the desire to increase speed, ) would be unlikely to make any real significant end to end reduction in travel times, it would cost significantly more and in reality achieve little more then present. Whats important to the punter is average speed and then point to point travel time, saving 15 minutes here and there on a railway isn't really going too make any real difference in perception

What has proven correct , is the Michael O leary form of rail pricing price the fares cheap enough and the punters will accept any auld nonsense, Passagners number Limerick Galway have risen from approx 29,000 to 50,000 on the back of the new fares etc. No doubt if you reduce the fares to a 1c , the trains would be jammed.

Meanwhile the rest of network struggles. try looking for a reasonable Limerick to waterford fare. or why the fare to rosslare is the same as the fare to Gorey ?

westtip

BoatMad wrote: »

What has proven correct , is the Michael O leary form of rail pricing price the fares cheap enough and the punters will accept any auld nonsense, Passagners number Limerick Galway have risen from approx 29,000 to 50,000 on the back of the new fares etc. No doubt if you reduce the fares to a 1c , the trains would be jammed.
?

Ah yes price elasticity. What you have failed to point out is Ryanair pricing varies from day to day, do you plan the same on Railways? Try getting Ryanair cheap prices the day before you travel - or on the day of travel. Also Ryanair makes a profit even on low fares, Irish Rail on the Ennis Athenry line is massively subvented. I am not sure about your numbers on Ennis/Athenry, I know they have increased - but if they have doubled and fares have halved, do the maths on the cost versus revenue. 50,000 may sound impressive: How many social freebies in that? Also the original business plan was for 100,000 in the first year - and no mention of discounting fares in the original business plan. So after three full years operation it has hit 50% of its year one volume numbers at discounted fare prices. It hasn't worked, which is why it is not getting the green light for extension. It was an interesting experiment lets move on.

BoatMad

westtip wrote: »

Ah yes price elasticity. What you have failed to point out is Ryanair pricing varies from day to day, do you plan the same on Railways? Try getting Ryanair cheap prices the day before you travel - or on the day of travel. Also Ryanair makes a profit even on low fares, Irish Rail on the Ennis Athenry line is massively subvented. I am not sure about your numbers on Ennis/Athenry, I know they have increased - but if they have doubled and fares have halved, do the maths on the cost versus revenue. 50,000 may sound impressive: How many social freebies in that? Also the original business plan was for 100,000 in the first year - and no mention of discounting fares in the original business plan. So after three full years operation it has hit 50% of its year one volume numbers at discounted fare prices. It hasn't worked, which is why it is not getting the green light for extension. It was an interesting experiment lets move on.

I completely agree, it has failed, even 50,000 passengers is a tiny amount. What it has done is effectively killed any sensible discussion about reopening rail lines and in keeping the white elephant open , it will scavenge funds from elsewhere on the network, yet in a few years time, after political face has been saved, it will be shut.

Yers lets move on , that why I support a greenway , and that greenway needs to be established on the track bed, and justified in its own right , not as a sop to future re-opening of the sligo end.

galwaycyclist

westtip wrote: »

I accept the motorway is overspecced and overkill for the population in the west; good quality seamless road, dual c/w or even 2+1 (remember that) would be perfectly ok, or even the single lane with wide hard shoulder, but a seamless road that bypasses the likes of Claregalway is essential. Transport needs in the west of ireland, due to our housing planning and dispersed population and communities is totally driven by road transport, like it or not, that is a fact of life, a new alignment for a railway may be worth considering, the existing alignment though is not suitable for a modern railway to deliver an acceptable journey time.

cgcsb wrote: »

indeed, an improved road with suitable capacity and overtaking lanes where required, coupled with a properly aligned railway with manageable gradients could have been achieved for less than half a billion. Instead we get a motorway that'll be lightly used and an impractical rail link that is only of use to sight seers, oaps and rail enthusiasts.

OK slightly off-topic but related. If we want a greenway network that integrates with our towns and cities then how we build our other roads is a key topic. Otherwise we end up with greenways that for many people are really only accessible by car - in terms of trip start and trip end.

Our towns are the nodes on our Greenways. If we want to make our towns walking and cycling friendly then the first step is to remove all through-traffic from the streets and roads. What we need is a mass program of town and village bypasses to remove this through traffic. In this regard, in my view, the decision to pursue a motorway program, instead of starting with bypasses, represents another one of the enormous mistakes of the celtic tiger years. And a mistake that like other celtic tiger mistakes, we will be paying for into the future.

The current Tuam - Gort motorway is a travesty not simply because it is overspecced but because when it is finished places like Tuam, Claregalway, Gort, Loughrea, Athenry etc will still not have proper bypasses. Trucks heading for the motorway will still have to go through the middle of Loughrea, Gort etc. When built the motorway, like its cousin linking Galway to Dublin, will be largely empty for much of the day while people in Galway Towns will still feel forced to drive their children to school etc.

We seem to have learnt nothing.

BoatMad

galwaycyclist wrote: »

OK slightly off-topic but related. If we want a greenway network that integrates with our towns and cities then how we build our other roads is a key topic. Otherwise we end up with greenways that for many people are really only accessible by car - in terms of trip start and trip end.

lets at least get them implemented, this is a car orientated society, baby steps first

Our towns are the nodes on our Greenways. If we want to make our towns walking and cycling friendly then the first step is to remove all through-traffic from the streets and roads. What we need is a mass program of town and village bypasses to remove this through traffic

.

perhaps you don't drive, the road building program has essentiality implemented a great majority of by-passes, but you can simply not exclude cars from the commercial centres of high streets unless you wish to drive everyone to out of town shopping,

In this regard, in my view, the decision to pursue a motorway program, instead of starting with bypasses, represents another one of the enormous mistakes of the celtic tiger years. And a mistake that like other celtic tiger mistakes, we will be paying for into the future.

The motorway network is a shining jewel in the otherwise mess the celtic tiger created

The current Tuam - Gort motorway is a travesty not simply because it is overspecced but because when it is finished places like Tuam, Claregalway, Gort, Loughrea, Athenry etc will still not have proper bypasses. Trucks heading for the motorway will still have to go through the middle of Loughrea, Gort etc. When built the motorway, like its cousin linking Galway to Dublin, will be largely empty for much of the day while people in Galway Towns will still feel forced to drive their children to school etc.

True, but thats an argument for a more extensive road infrastructure connected to motorways , not less.

Nor is there such thing as an " over specced " road, that the thinking that got a ridiculous under specced M50 built in the first place.

We seem to have learnt nothing.

I do not agree, anyone moving around this country cannot fail to appreciate the ease by which interurban travel by road has been immensely eased by the new roads. I can now travel with fantastic ease from coast to coast on big high quality european style roads, with the cruise control on , and now I can even pull in for me cup of Costa !.

The motorway network is fantastic N11 ( M11) extension to open soon, brill. The country needs a few more, like waterford- cork- limerick - Galway too.

Motorways are also the key to pushing out the concentration of industrial and high tech that has formed around Dublin, into other parts of the country

( and something needs to be done re the NW).

galwaycyclist

BoatMad wrote: »

perhaps you don't drive, the road building program has essentiality implemented a great majority of by-passes, but you can simply not exclude cars from the commercial centres of high streets unless you wish to drive everyone to out of town shopping,

Straw man argument. I did not state "exclude cars" I stated "through traffic" i.e traffic that does not have any business in the town or village centre involved.

The motorway network is a shining jewel in the otherwise mess the celtic tiger created

Disagree - it is a monument to the arrogance of the Irish Car lobby in my view

True, but thats an argument for a more extensive road infrastructure connected to motorways , not less.

No it is an argument for town bypasses

I do not agree, anyone moving around this country cannot fail to appreciate the ease by which interurban travel by road has been immensely eased by the new roads. I can now travel with fantastic ease from coast to coast on big high quality european style roads, with the cruise control on , and now I can even pull in for me cup of Costa !.

Why should your percieved need to use cruise control have taken priority over the needs of towns and villages up and down the country?

The same "motorway money" could have been spent to improve interurban road links to a reasonable standard and improve our towns and villages. On what basis does a small dispersed population like that of Ireland need Autobahn style infrastructure as "measure of first choice"?

BoatMad

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Straw man argument. I did not state "exclude cars" I stated "through traffic" i.e traffic that does not have any business in the town or village centre involved.

Fine, I have no real issue with that argument.

Disagree - it is a monument to the arrogance of the Irish Car lobby in my view



No it is an argument for town bypasses



Why should your percieved need to use cruise control have taken priority over the needs of towns and villages up and down the country?

The same "motorway money" could have been spent to improve interurban road links to a reasonable standard and improve our towns and villages. On what basis does a small dispersed population like that of Ireland need Autobahn style infrastructure as "measure of first choice"?

The fact is that dual carriage way roads with graded exits are the safest roads you can build. whether you call them motorways or HQDC etc is somewhat semantics. Building green field road systems has far less effect on existing traffic, minimises costs per mile, and has lest affect on surrounding communities.

Previously to that we had an appalling hooch pot of national primary roads, most unfit for purpose, travel between major urban centres was a long frustrating affair. the lack of quality roads was seen as ( and is/Was) a major disincentive to rural development and development outside dublin


There is no argument for returning to the green nonsense about over specced road ways. Building good roads is an investment for the next 200 years. As we see a shift to electric vehicles with increased driver automation, these needs good consistent roads, with standardised systems to make best use of this technology.

The argument for greenways is not an argument for hobbling the prevalent means of transport. Greenways are essentially a tourist/ leisure project, not some mis-guided attempt to displace cars.

PS: we don't have a dispersed population, we have in essence 40% crammed into the greater Dublin area, a feature that was partially the result of appalling road communications to the rest of the country. Now we have a chance to promote greater industry location diversity as truck and cars can easily reach these areas via the new road system. ( nor do we have an Autobahn, I don't see any 155mph sped limits yet!)

BoatMad

Why should your percieved need to use cruise control have taken priority over the needs of towns and villages up and down the country?

Because the primary purpose was to facilitate quick and efficient road journeys between Dublin and the other major urban centres. A side effect what that motorways also effected the very bye-passes you mentioned as a good thing, as can be witnessed by Naas, Fermoy, Ballinasloe to mention a few of the 100s so affected by the building process.

Motorways offer the most fuel and time efficient method of traversing the distance by road vehicle, are far safer then most other forms of road arrangement and result in stress free driver experience.

corktina

BoatMad wrote: »

actually 4'8 & 1/2

1600 kilograms or something isn't it?

BoatMad

corktina wrote: »

1600 kilograms or something isn't it?

no 1435mm

The victorians used 4'81/2 that good enough for me, they built the damm things.

interesting 5'3"" works out nicely in metric to your 1600mm

galwaycyclist

BoatMad wrote: »

A side effect what that motorways also effected the very bye-passes you mentioned as a good thing, as can be witnessed by Naas, Fermoy, Ballinasloe to mention a few of the 100s so affected by the building process.

Motorways offer the most fuel and time efficient method of traversing the distance by road vehicle, are far safer then most other forms of road arrangement and result in stress free driver experience.

Patently untrue. The fact that some traffic using our towns and villages may have reduced due to the availability of motorways does not equate to the removal of inappropriate traffic. This can only be done effectively by providing local ring roads around towns and then implementing traffic management measures to force through-traffic onto the ring route.

The idea that Ballinasloe is bypassed is a laugh, much local traffic trying to get to the motorway still has to come through the middle of the town.

Hence the spending of vast sums of money on more motorway standard road in Galway is a misuse of taxes.

BoatMad

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Patently untrue. The fact that some traffic using our towns and villages may have reduced due to the availability of motorways does not equate to the removal of inappropriate traffic. This can only be done effectively by providing local ring roads around towns and then implementing traffic management measures to force through-traffic onto the ring route.

The idea that Ballinasloe is bypassed is a laugh, much local traffic trying to get to the motorway still has to come through the middle of the town.

Hence the spending of vast sums of money on more motorway standard road in Galway is a misuse of taxes.

I worked in Naas, when the high street was virtually a car park and a smog filled mess. Now the centre is doing well with locals returning in a better environment.

to suggest that irelands road problems could be fixed by building bye-passes is patently nonsense, the quality, alignment and safety of single carriage interurban roads was appalling, HQDCs are the best way to fix that,

Thats not to say we shouldn't build more bye-passes. but the lack of bye-passes does not mean that motorways werent needed and appropriate,

I spend a lo tot time around Athlone and Ballinasloe, local traffic does not have to travel through the main street to reach the motorway, they can easily exit either side and pick up the east or west interchanges. The inner bypass, also removes the need to travel down the high street.
I fail to see you argument.

galwaycyclist

BoatMad wrote: »

to suggest that irelands road problems could be fixed by building bye-passes is patently nonsense, the quality, alignment and safety of single carriage interurban roads was appalling, HQDCs are the best way to fix that,

More strawman arguments. Building bypasses is about fixing problems in our towns and villages. There are more requirements to transport infrastructure than simply prioritising the highest possible level of service for inter-urban motor traffic.

Thats not to say we shouldn't build more bye-passes. but the lack of bye-passes does not mean that motorways werent needed and appropriate,

The fact that much of the existing motorways in the West and elsewhere are empty much of the time suggests that they are not needed and were not appropiate. Roads to a different standard could have provided a reasonable level of service and also allowed the allocation of funds to other pressing uses such as mass program of bypasses.

BoatMad

galwaycyclist wrote: »

More strawman arguments. Building bypasses is about fixing problems in our towns and villages. There are more requirements to transport infrastructure than simply prioritising the highest possible level of service for inter-urban motor traffic.



The fact that much of the existing motorways in the West and elsewhere are empty much of the time suggests that they are not needed and were not appropiate. Roads to a different standard could have provided a reasonable level of service and also allowed the allocation of funds to other pressing uses such as mass program of bypasses.

Let leave this , since you are not open to any reasonable argument, The motorway system was easily afforded by the state at the time,

We have it now ( thank god) , so yours is the ultimate straw argument.

corktina

Some of you have Motorways, we're still waiting in North Cork for the motorway linking the 2nd and 3rd cities of the state, meanwhile two pretty empty motorways parallel each other for many dozens of miles (M7 and 8) three if you add in the M9 farce

BoatMad

corktina wrote: »

Some of you have Motorways, we're still waiting in North Cork for the motorway linking the 2nd and 3rd cities of the state, meanwhile two pretty empty motorways parallel each other for many dozens of miles (M7 and 8) three if you add in the M9 farce

Cork isn't that somewhere beyond Dublin near Kildare like, what so ye want roads for anyway. isn't getting to Dublin enough !!

cgcsb

BoatMad wrote: »

You cannot compare high quality dual carriage style roads and railways. The basic falsehood is that there is not in any way even a half assed justification for a Limerick Galway service, especially one that stops all over the shop.

Significantly changing the alignment, ( with presumably the desire to increase speed, ) would be unlikely to make any real significant end to end reduction in travel times, it would cost significantly more and in reality achieve little more then present. Whats important to the punter is average speed and then point to point travel time, saving 15 minutes here and there on a railway isn't really going too make any real difference in perception

What has proven correct , is the Michael O leary form of rail pricing price the fares cheap enough and the punters will accept any auld nonsense, Passagners number Limerick Galway have risen from approx 29,000 to 50,000 on the back of the new fares etc. No doubt if you reduce the fares to a 1c , the trains would be jammed.

Meanwhile the rest of network struggles. try looking for a reasonable Limerick to waterford fare. or why the fare to rosslare is the same as the fare to Gorey ?

I don't know why you quoted me. Your post has ni relevance to mine.

BoatMad

cgcsb wrote: »

I don't know why you quoted me. Your post has ni relevance to mine.

indeed it does I was answering

Originally Posted by cgcsb View Post
indeed, an improved road with suitable capacity and overtaking lanes where required, coupled with a properly aligned railway with manageable gradients could have been achieved for less than half a billion. Instead we get a motorway that'll be lightly used and an impractical rail link that is only of use to sight seers, oaps and rail enthusiasts.

specifically this bit

indeed, an improved road with suitable capacity and overtaking lanes where required, coupled with a properly aligned railway with manageable gradients could have been achieved for less than half a billion

monument

MOD EDIT: First 50 posts on this new thread are off-topic posts from the disused WRC thread.

Most posts are not mainly about WRC disused section, Moving a whole load of posts is not easy and is far from an exact science so please excuse any posts which are clearly about the WRC disused section.

PLEASE feel free to continue the motorways, greenways, bypasses, railways and more general transport discussion here!