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Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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Comments

  • #5042
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    corktina wrote: »
    i stopped reading at the"LUAS gauge is 4'6" "

    why ?


  • #5043
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,730 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    becauase there is so much wrong info in your long winded posts.


  • #5044
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    corktina wrote: »
    becauase there is so much wrong info in your long winded posts.


    explain ?


  • #5045
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    BoatMad wrote: »

    The fact is that WRC and others lines show, once Ireland built high quality motorways, really it has spelled the end of intercity rail transport. The Dublin Galway rail line issues show this.

    The fact remains, WRC issues are not really related to the " alignment " , thats a red herring, short of a massive ridiculous high speed 100mph+ line, point to point journeys for a traveller will always be better on a motorway and high quality road network. Ireland simply has little or no congestion once outside a few specific urban pinch points.

    Boatman I have cut out quite a lot of the post this quote is pulled from, If you read any of my many posts on this subject over the last few years, I think you will see we are singing from the same hymn sheet in regard to the WRC alignment!


  • #5046
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    westtip wrote: »
    Boatman I have cut out quite a lot of the post this quote is pulled from, If you read any of my many posts on this subject over the last few years, I think you will see we are singing from the same hymn sheet in regard to the WRC alignment!

    I know, its a sad day, when one unjustifiable excuse after another is advanced to justify the farce that was the political justification exercise that was WOT/WRC. The main basis of which was " Ye's have all that track/trains in dublin, give us some"


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  • #5047
    eastwest
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    I would agree. However some confusion does emanate from the amount of enthusiasts that were supportive, including business people like Jim Deegan, who was only interested in his own agenda via his Rail Tours Ireland business.

    Pretty sickening stuff overall.
    Also Frank Dawson, former Roscommon County Manager and WOT member, heavily involved in the inter-county railway committee which was effectively the political wing of West on Track -- his father drove the last train out of Tuam, so 'rail anorak' is a reasonably good description.
    He also was famously known to have a toy train in his office in Roscommon.


  • #5048
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    eastwest wrote: »
    effectively the political wing of West on Track --

    Now that FG no longer support the WRC, and it is highly doubtful that FF will fall into that trap again, is the voice of the political wing of west on track?
    Gerry "not up for discussion" Murray:

    Remember this one folks lest you forget: He certainly got it right when he said the western rail corridor is not on the table and was not up for discussion - but perhaps not the way he thought!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7G_Zd47HRc


  • #5049
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,539 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    westtip wrote: »
    Now that FG no longer support the WRC, and it is highly doubtful that FF will fall into that trap again, is the voice of the political wing of west on track?
    Gerry "not up for discussion" Murray:

    Remember this one folks lest you forget: He certainly got it right when he said the western rail corridor is not on the table and was not up for discussion - but perhaps not the way he thought!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7G_Zd47HRc
    a beautiful twisting of his words there, i love it

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #5050
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Just a thought. but as this thread has gone so completely AWOL re its subject matter, and as the Western Rail Corridor no longer exists as a subject worth discussing, except in the minds of a tiny minority, should we call it a day. Should we now ask the mods to close the thread and start a new on on the Western Rail Trail?.... As I say just a thought :D


  • #5051
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MOD NOTE: 50 posts off-topic posts moved here.

    Most of those posts are not mainly about WRC disused section, but moving a whole load of posts is not easy and is far from an exact science so please excuse me if I have moved any posts which are clearly about the WRC disused section.

    PLEASE feel free to continue the motorways, greenways, bypasses, railways and more general transport discussion over on the new thread and continue WRC here.

    westtip wrote: »
    Just a thought. but as this thread has gone so completely AWOL re its subject matter, and as the Western Rail Corridor no longer exists as a subject worth discussing, except in the minds of a tiny minority, should we call it a day. Should we now ask the mods to close the thread and start a new on on the Western Rail Trail?.... As I say just a thought :D

    You posted while I was cleaning up the thread! Off-topic posts moved now to allow for some of that discussion to continue while keeping this thread on-topic.


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  • #5052
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Thank to mods for that, not that I had any issue with not discussing the western rail trail route formerly known as the western rail corridor.

    Anyway now we know the subject matter of this thread, The Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections) is dead as a railway and therefore there is no need to discuss railway issues anymore, shall we now rename the strip of land formerly known as the Western Rail Corridor under its new name The Western Rail Trail (soon to be). Would this be more appropriate and has anyone got any thoughts on the benefits the Western Rail Trail is going to bring to the west of Ireland tourism and leisure industry, and more to the point how can we make the government now put its money where its mouth is.


  • #5053
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Following up on the "unofficial" declaration of the governments stance on the WRC via an email sent to greenway campaigners before Xmas. Donohoe has now gone public as reported in the Irish Times today:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/government-does-not-intend-to-complete-western-rail-corridor-1.2056968

    Meanwhile in Mayo, West on Track are pursuing the Mayo man.

    http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=21233%3Akenny-urged-to-withdraw-western-rail-corridor-comments&catid=23%3Anews&Itemid=46

    He may try a volte face if he does he will have to sack his Minister.


  • #5054
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,949 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    " The Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections) is dead as a railway and therefore there is no need to discuss railway issues anymore, shall we now rename the strip of land formerly known as the Western Rail Corridor under its new name The Western Rail Trail (soon to be)"

    You may very well think that ,but ....
    Just heard someone from WOT,(I think ) on radio 1 drive time ,( half caught the tail end of interview) ,he definitely hadn't given up on WRC...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #5055
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Markcheese wrote: »
    " The Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections) is dead as a railway and therefore there is no need to discuss railway issues anymore, shall we now rename the strip of land formerly known as the Western Rail Corridor under its new name The Western Rail Trail (soon to be)"

    You may very well think that ,but ....
    Just heard someone from WOT,(I think ) on radio 1 drive time ,( half caught the tail end of interview) ,he definitely hadn't given up on WRC...

    I don't expect WOT to give up, they are rather like those Japanese WW2 commandos that used to appear in the jungle in the 1950s totally unaware the war was over and the world had moved on. WOT got too much airtime on drivetime this evening, they don't represent the views of everyone in the west.


  • #5056
    Rawr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,847 ✭✭✭Rawr


    westtip wrote: »
    I don't expect WOT to give up, they are rather like those Japanese WW2 commandos that used to appear in the jungle in the 1950s totally unaware the war was over and the world had moved on. WOT got too much airtime on drivetime this evening, they don't represent the views of everyone in the west.

    It has always perplexed me why WOT have such a seemingly narrow view of greenways. As has been said many times on this tread and most other regarding greenways on disused rail-alignments, a greenway is an excellent way to protect an alignment short of reactivating the line itself.

    They seem to also not realize that if much of the rail infrastructure remained in place following the construction of a greenway, the route itself might generate some awareness and interest in the original railway. There seem to be many old branches and connecting lines across Ireland that have been swallowed up by nature or lost in general to public memory. Building greenways on them would possibly remind people of them, and maybe even get them thinking. "What if this was a railway again?" "What if I could actually get a train from this 'A' to that 'B'?"

    In the (very) long term this might even generate enough interest to build heavy/light rail on these old routes, if the population or need presented itself. In a dream situation, Ireland might end up with a large network of interconnected greenways, which might make it a world leading cycle-tourism destination. Such a dream-land might even require some of the old lines to be re-activated to freight tourists to/from various greenway end-points.

    Thus, at least from where I'm looking, a greenway is not anti-rail but potentially very pro-rail, while in the meantime providing functional infrastructure on an old rail alignment, fairly quickly and cheaply.

    WOT should have opted to work *with* the greenway movement to get a greenway in place in order to try facilitate its ultimate goal of reactivating the rail line. As many have posted, rail & greenway can compliment each other very nicely, and have done so in real-world examples.

    But again, I'm perplexed by WOT's all-or-nothing attitude, which at best would result in nothing happening, and at worst would ensure that the alignment would be further encroached upon with time, and eventually would become useless for anything.

    But as I've learned from reading these mega threads, I shouldn't be all that surprised by this. None-the-less, I can't get my head around WOT.


  • #5057
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Rawr wrote: »

    But again, I'm perplexed by WOT's all-or-nothing attitude, which at best would result in nothing happening, and at worst would ensure that the alignment would be further encroached upon with time, and eventually would become useless for anything.

    But as I've learned from reading these mega threads, I shouldn't be all that surprised by this. None-the-less, I can't get my head around WOT.

    Great post - sums up the battle/debate that has taken place on this thread and its infamous predecessor over the past 7 or 8 years. I'm only quoting your last two phrases which just about sums up mentality and thinking of WOT, have you noticed how they really only ever talk about connecting up as far as Claremorris, they never really had any interest in Claremorris/Collooney, but won't ever secede to the point that yes that line could be a greenway, you may remember this idea was suggested (with a little help from me!) by Eamon O'Cuiv at a West on Track conference back in 2009. It went down like a lead balloon, and when I asked questions from the floor a West on Track representative came up to me at lunchtime and told me "You had better stop shooting your mouth off with this greenway idea this is our railway" I have never published this before but it was quite threatening. Anyway I didn't shut up! The reason they won't compromise is the Western Rail Trail (AKA Sligo Mayo greenway and Tuam Greenway) would be such a success the railway idea would sink into history. They won't give up on this fight, they won't accept its over and they will stay in the jungle refusing to see the smoke of the Atomic bomb that exploded on their campaign over christmas. Sad but true.


  • #5058
    loyatemu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,800 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    I skimmed the IT articles (there was a full page of Irish Rail relayed stuff in the physical paper) - one thing that stood out was the guy from WOT claiming that the WRC was "more successful" than the Dublin Belfast line... on what possible basis could they claim that?

    Put your money where yer mouth is... Subscribe and Save Boards!

    https://subscriptions.boards.ie/



  • #5059
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    loyatemu wrote: »
    I skimmed the IT articles (there was a full page of Irish Rail relayed stuff in the physical paper) - one thing that stood out was the guy from WOT claiming that the WRC was "more successful" than the Dublin Belfast line... on what possible basis could they claim that?

    All based on % increases in numbers using the line. The numbers went up on Ennis/Athenry from early 30,000 journies per annum on the route to about 50,000 journies per annum, this was the biggest increase on any route in the country on % terms. But before we all get carried away, Fares were almost halved in a continuous promotion that doesn't seem to be stopping. 50,000 passenger journies represents about 12/13 people per train using the service. The trains are generally only two coaches - on Friday evenings the have had to increase the train sizes to four coaches. A high percentage increase on very little is still very little, and don't lose sight of this. The business case to build this line (supported by West on Track) was for 100,000 passenger journies per annum in the first year rising to 250,000 by year 3. We are already past year 3 and 20% of the original year 3 forecast used to sell this idea to Government is all that has been achieved - and on much reduced fare prices. if you really want a good laugh though in massaging figures go to this press release West on Track put out on October 31st 2006, I have copied it in case West on Track pull it off their site, they should - it's pretty embarrassing for them now

    http://www.westontrack.com/news178.htm



    Here is the really funny bit! Note: WEST ON TRACK projected a demand of 750,000
    Extract from West on Track Press release in October 2006
    Working from the statistics in the poll it may be seen that potentially greater numbers of people would be using that one section of the WRC annually than currently use the Belfast-Dublin route, with numbers being at least as great as those currently using the Limerick-Dublin, Westport-Dublin and Sligo-Dublin routes," he added.

    Example:

    23% of respondents say they will use the train at least once a month.

    As a % of total pop of Co. Galway over 18 yrs (150,000 approx):

    = 34,500 people x 12 months

    = 414,000 x 2 (return trips count as 2)

    = 828,000 = DEMAND

    Note: WEST ON TRACK projected a demand of 750,000

    I know you really couldn't make this stuff up!


  • #5060
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    actually what is being claimed is that Limerick Galway is at 200,000 passenger journeys, of course some of that is not over WRC track.


  • #5061
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    BoatMad wrote: »
    actually what is being claimed is that Limerick Galway is at 200,000 passenger journeys, of course some of that is not over WRC track.

    WOT have always tried to claim those travelling Galway/Athenry were using the WRC, of course this is nonsense this is the Dublin Galway line.

    Ennis/Limerick has been in situ for sometime now, however although they don't like it, WOT have reluctantly accepted reporting figures from IR that are broken out so the Ennis/Athenry data can be seen for what it is. Ennis/Athenry is the true measure of through journies for Galway/Limerick. It is these figures that WOT are saying are up 70% and indeed they are right but the fact remains a high percentage increase of not much, is just that, not much. This railway would not have been built to accommodate 50,000 passenger journies a year of which at least 10,000 are probably social freebies, the rest being on promotional fares. We all know the numbers don't stack up on any criteria which is why the rest of the WRC north of Athenry will eventually become the Western Rail Trail.


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  • #5062
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,730 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    14 passengers per train...I did the math


  • #5063
    mayo.mick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭mayo.mick


    corktina wrote: »
    14 passengers per train...I did the math

    How many of those 14 have paid a fare to travel or how many of those 14 are free travel pass holders?

    Swinford Weather



  • #5064
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    corktina wrote: »
    14 passengers per train...I did the math

    Yep something like that, a minibus would do it. Not sure what the subvention per passenger works out at, I did hear it was about €80 per passenger per journey, it might be less this year.


  • #5065
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    I think the solution to the greenway et al, is necessary to overly denigrate WRC and WOT. Misguided perhaps, and they will cause damage to other parts of the rail network. but I don't think its needs to degenerate into a them and us.


  • #5066
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,112 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Rawr wrote: »
    It has always perplexed me why WOT have such a seemingly narrow view of greenways. As has been said many times on this tread and most other regarding greenways on disused rail-alignments, a greenway is an excellent way to protect an alignment short of reactivating the line itself.

    Going out on a limb here, but suspect they may have got wind of a controversial group in the uk called Sustrans, who have an uncompromising 'my way or the highway' mindset and fear that a similar thing could happen here? i.e. once a greenway goes in, it'll be that way for good.


  • #5067
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,730 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    well it has to be said that once a Greenway is established, it is highly likely a cycling lobby would fiercely resist re-introduction of trains....


  • #5068
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,730 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    mayo.mick wrote: »
    How many of those 14 have paid a fare to travel or how many of those 14 are free travel pass holders?

    I don't think it's relevant how many aren't fare-paying. The subvention for the DSP passes is their contribution and if you removed them from the trains, then that subvention would go too.....result: far fewer trains.


  • #5069
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    corktina wrote: »
    well it has to be said that once a Greenway is established, it is highly likely a cycling lobby would fiercely resist re-introduction of trains....

    No corky, the route would be released on licence to local authorities to have a greenway on it and remain in ownership of irish rail - should in the future the route be needed for rail, the whole shooting match would be railway with parallel greenway that has always been the argument. A parallel greenway is the best of both worlds, but we simply cannot afford the railway now and the route needs protecting.


  • #5070
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,539 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    Going out on a limb here, but suspect they may have got wind of a controversial group in the uk called Sustrans, who have an uncompromising 'my way or the highway' mindset and fear that a similar thing could happen here? i.e. once a greenway goes in, it'll be that way for good.

    good point. the so called "Sustrans mentality" is something we do not need in this country, nor extremist groups like them.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • #5071
    errigalclimber
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43 ✭errigalclimber


    Sustrans an "extremist group"?! You've got to be kidding. Sustrans is a highly regarded charity whose mission is to encourage more and safer journeys by foot, bicycle and public transport. That is not extremism, it is common sense and what more it is a policy that encourages healthier lifestyles. Far from "not needing" such advocacy in this country, we need a lot more of it. What is extremist is the narrow, blinkered view of WOT that there can only ever be one use of the alignment and one use only, ignoring the fact that vast swathes of the alignment are being lost to squatters.


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