Dublin Airport ATC and BA Exchange

islanderre

Evening all,

Just listened to this and am somewhat surprised and disappointed and at the time killing of the BA pilot with the ATC member.

Appears he was deliberately stalling while the ATC member was trying to move things along.

At the end of the clip above; a mention is made that the flight deck crew would have to contact heathrow ground because of this.

Would ATC submit a report to BA about this and would the flight deck have a 'chat' with the chief pilot too??

Just curious....

Islanderre

Blue Punto

Failing to comply with instructions from ATC

Among other things it shows how professional he is and how much he cares for anyone but himself

Strumms

Something similar happened last night it was the Ethiad or Emerites I can't remember which but they were cleared to line up on 28 but refused the clearance as the cabin wasn't ready yet. The difference was they were immediately instructed to confirm that they were still short of the stop bars and continue waiting. From memory 2 or 3 aircraft landed in the space of the next 5 minutes ahead of them.

It's not the longest taxi in the world alright but would the cockpit brief the cabin to be efficient in getting their secure checks complete because of this or could it possibly be a case of some dozy pax standing up mid taxi to get something from the overhead as I have seen on all all too regular basis.

Jack1985

What an ignorant tool. BA845 wasn't ready right up to and including a line-up instruction, as she rightly states you should not be entering E1 if you are not fully ready especially at DUB when traffic behind is fully ready - I'm sure if he tried this sort of malarkey at Heathrow he would be quickly slapped to touch not only by ATCO's there but by BA themselves.

Also what's the deal with ''Madam'' whenever he was given an instruction which he continued to refuse to follow, does he reply ''Gentleman'' to male ATCO's? Didn't think so. Seriously unprofessional and he needs to be reprimanded for this.

EchoIndia

I don't disagree that unless the flight was actually ready once at the holding-point, it should have complied with the ATC request.

That said, when an aircraft at the hold says that it's not ready, the usual ATC response is "roger, hold short". This happens several times a day when a flight says they are waiting on the cabin to be ready - and BA are not the only company involved. To have had BA enter the runway and vacate, then have another aircraft line up and depart, would probably have taken a couple of minutes and would not usually be attempted. Was the following aircraft on a time-critical slot?

In my view it was not appropriate, once BA said he was ready and she cleared him to line up, for ATC then to initiate a discussion about the previous ATC instructions. If she wanted to ensure an expeditious departure at that point, it should have been left to Dublin Centre to take the whole matter up with the flight once it was safely airborne and on course. Only essential ATC communications should be issued during critical phases of flight, of which line-up and take-off is one.

I would add finally that listening to the recording does not give any of us the full picture that ATC would have had, including the number of aircraft in the departure queue and those on approach and their positions at the time.

bkehoe

I suspect there's more to this; I often hear Ground asking BA if they're actually ready and have got the figures (I believe they receive their takeoff performance solution via acars) before they get handed over to tower. How many times has anyone heard Ground ask FR or EI if they're ready? They just get told to monitor tower.

basill

I think it's actually the final loadsheet they get via ACARS. Up until that point all the trim and take off performance is based on provisional data. Have had the unpleasant experience of being stuck behind one of these ignorant Nigel's at a single runway airport many years ago.

Mech1

Could you give me a date / time I would like to hear the surrounding transmissions.

Was it on my feed?

EchoIndia

Mech, if you go to the Youtube page the uploader states that it was on Christmas Eve. I note he adds in a comment that he has edited out two minutes of the transmissions during the time period.

Mech1

My vote of support goes to the lady.

Thank this post if you agree, someone might see it.

billie1b

Mech1 wrote: »

My vote of support goes to the lady.

Thank this post if you agree, someone might see it.

Can you put up a link to the full convo Mech? Its usually a busy departure time, its around 9am

Mech1

billie1b wrote: »

Can you put up a link to the full convo Mech? Its usually a busy departure time, its around 9am

Thats fr336's speciality, says midday in the youtube link

FWVT

Two aircraft had to go around because of all this.

billie1b

FWVT wrote: »

Two aircraft had to go around because of all this.

If that was an FR crew that did that it'd be all over the Journal here getting slated and the daily fail in the UK

PukkaStukka

As someone else said here already, a Shamrock pilot doing this in Heathrow would have his or her tail feathers shot off for this. Can this BA gobsh!the be reprimanded or disciplined for his actions? Has he broken any rules or regs?

fr336

I'm on the hunt for the full conversation...will get back to you

fr336

It was approx 11am on 24th Dec

FWVT

Does the LiveATC Android app not have an archive? I can't find that clip on it.

fr336

I'm just trying to listen back myself for anything additional but archive is here http://www.liveatc.net/archive.php?m=eidw4 Select 24th December 11am-11:30am. Their conversation starts approx 5 mins in but there could be more info before or after I guess.

He didn't wish her a Merry Christmas either!

PukkaStukka

fr336 wrote: »

He didn't wish her a Merry Christmas either!

That's made this debacle twice as bad...

Cessna_Pilot

PukkaStukka wrote: »

Has he broken any rules or regs?

He refused to vacate runway 28 onto 34 several times. That's a blatent disregard for the rules imho. I hope Dublin ATC do follow this up.

Ted_YNWA

Is there any Regs for ignoring ATC commands.

westdub

FWVT wrote: »

Two aircraft had to go around because of all this.

I was watching this happen from the spotting mound and there were no aircraft on approach at the time, if there were you would hear them on frequency.

The problem was the other aircraft waiting to take off ..

cjk photos

cant decided who is in the wrong

owenc

It is obvious its him

cjk photos

She got a bit loud at one stage and he keep his cool.

fr336

I'd say you would have to get a bit loud when someone has ignored your ATC instructions three or four times, she would have had to get the loudspeaker out next. He just sound sarcastic.

PukkaStukka

cjk photos wrote: »

She got a bit loud at one stage and he keep his cool.

I don't think she got loud at all. She pointed out politely but firmly that he'd been asked to vacate the runway three times and he ignored this. He should've got a kicked ass for that.

pepe the prawn

Same controller just brought this up again with a speedbird, he reported ready and she asked him was the cabin ready because there had been problems recently of BA crews reporting ready when they actually weren't.. She ain't letting this one go

fr336

pepe the prawn wrote: »

Same controller just brought this up again with a speedbird, he reported ready and she asked him was the cabin ready because there had been problems recently of BA crews reporting ready when they actually weren't.. She ain't letting this one go

You serious?

fr336

I don't think you can be as I've had the tower on for an hour and not heard this....unless she's on ground today?

Ted_YNWA

Just heard there as well BA827.

Bout 10 mins ago, if you wanna check archives

Think she is on ground today

fr336

Ah I'm confused...just heard her clear a takeoff actually. Ok I often have it on only as background noise..

pepe the prawn

fr336 wrote: »

I don't think you can be as I've had the tower on for an hour and not heard this....unless she's on ground today?

Yes I'm serious. It was about two or three minutes before I posted on here. A/c involved was BA827.

EchoIndia

Cessna_Pilot wrote: »

He refused to vacate runway 28 onto 34 several times. That's a blatent disregard for the rules imho. I hope Dublin ATC do follow this up.

He was not on 28 at that point - the instruction was to taxi onto 28 and vacate onto 34.

owenc

pepe the prawn wrote: »

Same controller just brought this up again with a speedbird, he reported ready and she asked him was the cabin ready because there had been problems recently of BA crews reporting ready when they actually weren't.. She ain't letting this one go

Well why would she. That man sounded as if he thought he was the prince of bel air or something.

fr336

owenc wrote: »

Well why would she. That man sounded as if he thought he was the prince of bel air or something.

Your best post ever

fr336

pepe the prawn wrote: »

Yes I'm serious. It was about two or three minutes before I posted on here. A/c involved was BA827.

Thanks, and apologies.

fr336

The Speedbird this time sounded the complete opposite to the other chap - bit unfair to be stern to him for being a BA I call this evens.

ProfessorPlum

EchoIndia wrote: »

He was not on 28 at that point - the instruction was to taxi onto 28 and vacate onto 34.

She asked him several times while he was at the holding point to taxi onto 28 and vacate onto Rwy 34. Then the told her they were ready so she cleared them to line up 28 and wait. It then became apparent that they were still not ready, and she asked them a further two times to vacate rwy 28 onto 34, which they didn't do. At that stage they were (finally and to the relief of everyone else at the holding point I'm sure) ready, and she cleared them for take off. I don't honestly remember hearing such an arrogant and ultimately selfish exchange from a crew, and as others have said, if the roles were reversed and it was an Irish airline behaving like that in the UK, there would be angry phone calls made and reports submitted, at the very least.

fr336

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

She asked him several times while he was at the holding point to taxi onto 28 and vacate onto Rwy 34. Then the told her they were ready so she cleared them to line up 28 and wait. It then became apparent that they were still not ready, and she asked them a further two times to vacate rwy 28 onto 34, which they didn't do. At that stage they were (finally and to the relief of everyone else at the holding point I'm sure) ready, and she cleared them for take off. I don't honestly remember hearing such an arrogant and ultimately selfish exchange from a crew, and as others have said, if the roles were reversed and it was an Irish airline behaving like that in the UK, there would be angry phone calls made and reports submitted, at the very least.

Imagine the Daily Mail headline if it were FR - "After Michael O'Leary's rant at Heathrow ATC as he lined up on the runway in an Airbus A380, just when are we going to rid ourselves of this stain on British aviation?"

Mech1

I know she was under pressure to get everyone away, but I wish she had stuck firmly and refused clearance until previous instruction complied with.

He deserved it.

owenc

I'm going to snip this ill advised comment that must have been typed in haste

fr336

Mech1 wrote: »

I know she was under pressure to get everyone away, but I wish she had stuck firmly and refused clearance until previous instruction complied with.

Sadly a lot of the time things get to such a stage where the table is turned on whoever might well be in the right and it's their fault for the eventual result, overclouding whatever set the ball rolling.

fr336

owenc wrote: »

....SNIP....

Careful now

PukkaStukka

Mech1 wrote: »

I know she was under pressure to get everyone away, but I wish she had stuck firmly and refused clearance until previous instruction complied with.

He deserved it.

Ordinarily I'd say yes but it was Christmas eve and to be fair, who'd want to muck around those wanting to get home?

The other side of the coin too is if controller performance is actively monitored, any delays in dispatching or clearing flights could be recorded against that particular controllers performance figures and her stats for that day could look bad all because of what happened in this particular incident. If this is so, I can fully understand her hard line on that day, and any hard line she may take subsequently.

HughMann

I'd like to here the full sequence of transmissions in normal time to get a better picture of this but there are a few things I noticed (sorry if this is a bit long winded).

The ATCO said if he wasn't ready to depart then she would have to bring him on to 28 to exit via 34, meaning he was previously holding short and so wasn't blocking the active runway for arrivals. This is why I'm not too sure about there being two go-arounds during this. However, if the Speedbird was at the holding point and had given a poor estimate regarding his readiness to ground while taxiing, he probably had upset the ground controllers departure sequence (eg they could have altered Speedbirds taxi to get other aircraft out in front or even prepared other aircraft for an intersection departure if they had better info).

I'd like to hear a pilots view on this next one. Eventually the Speedbird did report ready for take-off (I took it as meaning the cabin now being secure). I'm guessing that there is still a short checklist to complete just before starting the roll, and that this is the checklist he says the ATCO keeps interrupting (I know that checklists must be restarted if interrupted) and that this was the cause for the next pilot/ATCO exchange after line-up.

Regarding his ignoring of the instruction to vacate, I dont have much problem with a pilot querying it or making a reguest for a little extra time once they provide a reason and estimate. Obviously this only applies if its not a time critical instruction like 'vacate now due traffic on short finals' etc. However, ignoring multiple 'vacate instructions' and only responding with standby while you're trying to get your house in order is not acceptable.

The use of 'Madam' in transmissions is a non-issue I think, its used both ways between pilots and ATCOs along with Sir for the men folk and is actually a sign of respect.

The slight scolding she gives him on frequency and whether or not it is appropriate to do so while an aircraft is lined up is a tough one to call. On one hand, the lady knows her workload and if she has time to do it, also the aircraft has not yet been cleared for take-off. On the other, I wouldn't like to distract a pilot unnecessarily prior to an important phase of flight.

Overall, at least they spoke to each other reasonably professionally and respectful (unlike some of the shouting matches you sometimes hear on US feeds). It just proves that there's always room for improvement in aviation. In this case its the reporting of readiness for departure so that runway through-put can be maximised.

Just my opinions here, might have missed a few things but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

owenc

??

Xpro

The pilot in question was bang out of order. He received an instruction and didn't comply. He knew he would lose his slot and go at the back of the Q. Typical arrogance.

Why call ready for departure if he wasn't ready, the departure check list is no more then 10 sec.

There could have been someone landing on top of them and him ignoring the instructions.
ATC is there for reason.

This should definitely be reported to CAA.

fr336

HughMann wrote: »

I'd like to here the full sequence of transmissions in normal time to get a better picture of this but there are a few things I noticed (sorry if this is a bit long winded).

The ATCO said if he wasn't ready to depart then she would have to bring him on to 28 to exit via 34, meaning he was previously holding short and so wasn't blocking the active runway for arrivals. This is why I'm not too sure about there being two go-arounds during this. However, if the Speedbird was at the holding point and had given a poor estimate regarding his readiness to ground while taxiing, he probably had upset the ground controllers departure sequence (eg they could have altered Speedbirds taxi to get other aircraft out in front or even prepared other aircraft for an intersection departure if they had better info).

I'd like to hear a pilots view on this next one. Eventually the Speedbird did report ready for take-off (I took it as meaning the cabin now being secure). I'm guessing that there is still a short checklist to complete just before starting the roll, and that this is the checklist he says the ATCO keeps interrupting (I know that checklists must be restarted if interrupted) and that this was the cause for the next pilot/ATCO exchange after line-up.

Regarding his ignoring of the instruction to vacate, I dont have much problem with a pilot querying it or making a reguest for a little extra time once they provide a reason and estimate. Obviously this only applies if its not a time critical instruction like 'vacate now due traffic on short finals' etc. However, ignoring multiple 'vacate instructions' and only responding with standby while you're trying to get your house in order is not acceptable.

The use of 'Madam' in transmissions is a non-issue I think, its used both ways between pilots and ATCOs along with Sir for the men folk and is actually a sign of respect.

The slight scolding she gives him on frequency and whether or not it is appropriate to do so while an aircraft is lined up is a tough one to call. On one hand, the lady knows her workload and if she has time to do it, also the aircraft has not yet been cleared for take-off. On the other, I wouldn't like to distract a pilot unnecessarily prior to an important phase of flight.

Overall, at least they spoke to each other reasonably professionally and respectful (unlike some of the shouting matches you sometimes hear on US feeds). It just proves that there's always room for improvement in aviation. In this case its the reporting of readiness for departure so that runway through-put can be maximised.

Just my opinions here, might have missed a few things but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Excellent summing up

owenc

When they say that they were not ready did they mean the people weren't belted in or did they mean the pilots were performing their checklist?