Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Read Mod Warning in OP 7/1/15

The_Kew_Tour

Lord TSC wrote: »

Have Chelsea the same points as this time last year? Or have they improved, decreased?

Same points if I'm not mistaken.

We are on 47 points at minute. Last year was 45. Played game less this season to get that total

After 26 games last season Chelsea were on 57 points compared to 60 now.

We were on 42 points last season, compared to 47 as things stand after 26 games now.

homerjay2005

Lord TSC wrote: »

Have Chelsea the same points as this time last year? Or have they improved, decreased?

on the 24th of February last year, they had 60 points, exactly the same as what they have right now, albeit with a game less played this year.

in fairness, if you said in late August, we'd be 13 points off first place going into March, i dont think anybody would have accepted it given that we'd just spend over £130m and Blind and Falcao to come.

kryogen

If you said in late August that with 12 games to go we would be in the top four I think most people would have been happy with that given that we have had major changes to the playing squad and the players have not gelled together properly yet though a lot of the dead wood has been cleared out while the team maintains a good push for a return to the CL.

homerjay2005

kryogen wrote: »

If you said in late August that with 12 games to go we would be in the top four I think most people would have been happy with that given that we have had major changes to the playing squad and the players have not gelled together properly yet though a lot of the dead wood has been cleared out while the team maintains a good push for a return to the CL.

can you honestly say you believe we will be in the top 4 in 12 games time? i think theres very few United fans would say they are confident of it - on current form we will finish 6th in my opinion. our away record is dibolical and we still have Newcastle,Everton,Liverpool, Chelsea to come away from home - 4 really tough places to go,where we only picked up 3 points last years, despite being the 2nd best away team in the league until the last day of the season. That excludes the fact we also have City,Spurs and Arsenal to come at home, 3 teams who at the moment are all playing much better football than us.

LVG needs to turn our season around and quickly or we may not even get Europa League. we all hope he does, but there is no guarantee that he will and right now, we seem to be getting worse while Arsenal, Liverpool and to a lesser extent Spurs appear to be flourishing.

kryogen

homerjay2005 wrote: »

can you honestly say you believe we will be in the top 4 in 12 games time? i think theres very few United fans would say they are confident of it - on current form we will finish 6th in my opinion. our away record is dibolical and we still have Newcastle,Everton,Liverpool, Chelsea to come away from home - 4 really tough places to go,where we only picked up 3 points last years, despite being the 2nd best away team in the league until the last day of the season. That excludes the fact we also have City,Spurs and Arsenal to come at home, 3 teams who at the moment are all playing much better football than us.

LVG needs to turn our season around and quickly or we may not even get Europa League. we all hope he does, but there is no guarantee that he will and right now, we seem to be getting worse while Arsenal, Liverpool and to a lesser extent Spurs appear to be flourishing.

Well, that is a different argument tbh, whether or not you feel confident the team will be somewhere in 12 games time, if you were given the position of top four with 12 games to go at the end of August you would have to be happy with that. The team has a real shot and has itself in a good position.


Of course, the team needs to get its ass in gear and start actually putting teams away properly, I am confident of a top four finish, I said as much yesterday or the day before and had quite a long winded post so feel I probably covered everything already.

I think we will finish top four, I think Liverpool will drop more points then us, I think Spurs will drop more points then us and I think Southampton will drop more points then us.

I was hoping for a third place finish but its looking a remote possibility because I don't think Arsenal will drop more points then us. I have already stated how many points I think we need to be top four and if we fail to hit it I would be very surprised and extremely disappointed, it would also cost me financially as I am waiting on United for a few bets at this point!

The players are not performing to the level they are capable of playing at and the lack of real leaders is again hurting us but I its not that far away imo, the final third play has been so bad but I think playing against the better teams will probably help that for the reason that they will not just sit in and crowd the centre (other then Chelsea) so hopefully there will be some space for the strikers to exploit since they seem incapable of creating their own.

There were good performances earlier in the season against the likes of City and Chelsea and if they can be replicated we will be fine.

If we beat the teams you expect us to, avoid defeat against Spurs and Pool we can actually afford to lose to Chelsea City and Arsenal by my calculations.

Its a great time of the season, the team is in a proper dogfight now for fourth, Im excited to see whether they will stand up to the test.

redalan

I think (and hope) that the Europa Cup will hinder and scupper Spurs and Liverpool.

Mantis Toboggan

Sunderland and Newcastle are must win games if we're to have any chance of top 4

The_Kew_Tour

Louis Van Haal wrote: »

Sunderland and Newcastle are must win games if we're to have any chance of top 4

Yes, we are not taking enough points off the teams we should be beating.

Time is ticking and unless we have high hopes of getting 3 points in places like Stamford Bridge we want start winning the "winnable" games.

Annnnd I'm back

That result on Saturday was on the cards for a while now.

Only positive I took from it was that when Young came on he played well...again

Cantona's Collars

Koeman has his say on LVG at United: http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/manchester-united-manager-louis-van-8706517

Players playing with fear is the main gist of it.

kryogen

Anything Koeman has to say about Van Gaal (and vice versa) is best just ignored tbh, they hate each other

3hn2givr7mx1sc

I'd assume Giggs provides the "soft touch" that Koeman is talking about. In the sense that he'd have played with a lot of the players in the side and would understand the problems that the others have, to an extent.

TheDoc

Considering the dramatic decline in the last 18 months, and performance dips in numerous members of the squad, I personally have no problem if Van Gaal was behind the scenes cracking a whip. I don't believe he is, but at some point the players need to accept it's their responsibility to perform on the pitch and the excuses about injuries, tactics and systems only go so far.

I wouldn't be suprised if Van Gaal wasn't mad about the hugs, considering he is struggling to get his message across and they are WAY behind his schedule.

I think there is enough evidence even this season, World Cup, and plenty before, that he holds a good rapport with his players. Koeman talking garbage, should maybe focus more on trying to keep the wheels on his Southampton team that are starting to huff and puff.

bangkok

MythicalMadMan wrote: »

Ferguson United Career 1500 games win % 59.67 career 58.14

Louis van gall Career 831 games win % 61.13

Now these stats really dont say much as you cant really measure across leagues but LVG has shown himself to be a more than capable manager over the years.

that was the most pointless stat ever considering you only picked fergusons man utd career compared to van gaals entire career.

fergie has a total of 2131 games with a win percentage of 58.14
van gaal has a total of 831 games with a win percentage of 63.13

no comparison really between them, as fergie has almost 3 times as many games played than van gaal.

Also fergies win rate at united was 59.67%

3hn2givr7mx1sc

bangkok wrote: »

that was the most pointless stat ever considering you only picked fergusons man utd career compared to van gaals entire career.

fergie has a total of 2131 games with a win percentage of 58.14
van gaal has a total of 831 games with a win percentage of 63.13

no comparison really between them, as fergie has almost 3 times as many games played than van gaal.

Also fergies win rate at united was 59.67%

You essentially just rewrote the post you quoted.

Cantona's Collars

kryogen wrote: »

Anything Koeman has to say about Van Gaal (and vice versa) is best just ignored tbh, they hate each other

I know that but is he right? We've all heard the stories about LVG. Fergie ruled with an iron rod but knew when to put an arm around a player too.LVG seems to cold to do this.

TheDoc

zerks wrote: »

I know that but is he right? We've all heard the stories about LVG. Fergie ruled with an iron rod but knew when to put an arm around a player too.LVG seems to cold to do this.

In fairness we have absolutely no idea or indication at all what he is doing in the background. If anything the pictures and videos I've seen of him being eccentric, jovial, slaps on the back and all that craic.

Cantona's Collars

TheDoc wrote: »

In fairness we have absolutely no idea or indication at all what he is doing in the background. If anything the pictures and videos I've seen of him being eccentric, jovial, slaps on the back and all that craic.

Maybe he just needs to let players express themselves instead of following his "philosophy" too rigidly.

Mantis Toboggan

TheDoc wrote: »

In fairness we have absolutely no idea or indication at all what he is doing in the background. If anything the pictures and videos I've seen of him being eccentric, jovial, slaps on the back and all that craic.

Yes but our football shows otherwise. Players look unmotivated, devoid of confidence and afraid to make a mistake. Nobody taking a chance and everything is too safe. Players also look nervous especially at the back and that is a recipe for disaster.

bucketybuck

TheDoc wrote: »

In fairness we have absolutely no idea or indication at all what he is doing in the background.

Proof is in the pudding though, we have a lot of very good players who can't seem to string two passes together, who are playing well within themselves and don't really seem to know what to do on the field.

Those players aren't being coached correctly and aren't being used correctly, whether its whips or hugs in the background is secondary to that fact.

TheDoc

It might well be down to information overload. He's mentioned before about training brains and not legs. There is some adaptation required from the natural instincts of some players. There is a way and structure he wants to play and players need to adapt to it.

If anything I'd put it down to the players having information overload and trying to play in this new way, fighting their own instinct. I don't think it's an issue with motivation or "fear", that's garbage. Looks like the players are just thinking too much, which in fairness is what is being asked of them.

With I assume the hope being after time the things they are thinking so much about and working on, become second nature.

I don't think the ropey performances and passive possesion is the players trying to appease the manager for "fear" of being lashed out of it.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

TheDoc wrote: »

It might well be down to information overload. He's mentioned before about training brains and not legs. There is some adaptation required from the natural instincts of some players. There is a way and structure he wants to play and players need to adapt to it.

If anything I'd put it down to the players having information overload and trying to play in this new way, fighting their own instinct. I don't think it's an issue with motivation or "fear", that's garbage. Looks like the players are just thinking too much, which in fairness is what is being asked of them.

With I assume the hope being after time the things they are thinking so much about and working on, become second nature.

I don't think the ropey performances and passive possesion is the players trying to appease the manager for "fear" of being lashed out of it.

I think something along these lines could have a huge effect on Rooney. To be brutally honest, he has never come across as the most intelligent of people. I think he flourishes most when he is let loose to an extent and just does his thing. His worst performances under Ferguson were when he was in a strict role and had to stick to it.

LvG seems to tell his players to do a certain thing and not stray from it. That wouldn't suit Rooney and perhaps Dí Maria also, but I couldn't speak with as much certainty for ADM as I've never watched him regularly before this season.

bangkok

baz2009 wrote: »

I think something along these lines could have a huge effect on Rooney. To be brutally honest, he has never come across as the most intelligent of people. I think he flourishes most when he is let loose to an extent and just does his thing. His worst performances under Ferguson were when he was in a strict role and had to stick to it.

LvG seems to tell his players to do a certain thing and not stray from it. That wouldn't suit Rooney and perhaps Dí Maria also, but I couldn't speak with as much certainty for ADM as I've never watched him regularly before this season.

in fairness, id say 80% of footballers wouldn't be the brightest

Giggsy11

baz2009 wrote: »

I think something along these lines could have a huge effect on Rooney. To be brutally honest, he has never come across as the most intelligent of people. I think he flourishes most when he is let loose to an extent and just does his thing. His worst performances under Ferguson were when he was in a strict role and had to stick to it.

LvG seems to tell his players to do a certain thing and not stray from it. That wouldn't suit Rooney and perhaps Dí Maria also, but I couldn't speak with as much certainty for ADM as I've never watched him regularly before this season.

Not entirely true. One of his best season was in 2009-10 when he played most games as lone striker. He led the line brilliantly and played as per the plan.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Not entirely true. One of his best season was in 2009-10 when he played most games as lone striker. He led the line brilliantly and played as per the plan.

I'd agree with that, but that was shown to be his best position. When he's been shunted out on the right or left he's rarely played to his potential and now this season in midfield. Now, the obvious explanation is that he's out of position. I do think though, that he was allowed to flourish when played up top, but he was limited to what he could do in other positions.

bucketybuck

TheDoc wrote: »

There is a way and structure he wants to play and players need to adapt to it.

Which is a ridiculous mindset that I have criticised before.

Manchester United are not a play thing for LVG to experiment with. His job is manager, the management of the staff and resources at Manchester United. Its no different to the manager of a McDonalds or the manager of a fortune 500 company.

His job is to make the most effective use of the tools he has at his disposal. He might wish he had the Real Madrid squad so that he could play a certain way, but he doesn't, he has our squad, and trying to shoehorn a specific style of play onto unsuitable players is a horrible use of resources in any language.

This doesn't mean that a manager cannot implement long term change, but the idea that you just say "this is how we do it now" is prehistoric thinking and plain bad management. LVG is clearly not using the tools at his disposal properly, we have a serious need for him to cut the arrogant bullshit and start doing his job.

Giggsy11

baz2009 wrote: »

I'd agree with that, but that was shown to be his best position. When he's been shunted out on the right or left he's rarely played to his potential and now this season in midfield. Now, the obvious explanation is that he's out of position. I do think though, that he was allowed to flourish when played up top, but he was limited to what he could do in other positions.

Yeah, he had few very good games as LW when he was young but now he can't do decent job anywhere except upfront and should be played only as striker.

Van Gaal excuse to play him in midfield is baffling and making team more unbalanced and also weakening 2 positions in 1 shot.

TheDoc

bucketybuck wrote: »

Which is a ridiculous mindset that I have criticised before.

Manchester United are not a play thing for LVG to experiment with. His job is manager, the management of the staff and resources at Manchester United. Its no different to the manager of a McDonalds or the manager of a fortune 500 company.

His job is to make the most effective use of the tools he has at his disposal. He might wish he had the Real Madrid squad so that he could play a certain way, but he doesn't, he has our squad, and trying to shoehorn a specific style of play onto unsuitable players is a horrible use of resources in any language.

This doesn't mean that a manager cannot implement long term change, but the idea that you just say "this is how we do it now" is prehistoric thinking and plain bad management. LVG is clearly not using the tools at his disposal properly, we have a serious need for him to cut the arrogant bullshit and start doing his job.

To be honest Gary Neville put it best, if the club wanted to maintain a high tempo 4-4-2, they wouldn't have hired Van Gaal.

I would have imagined there is a plan of development for the squad. And high on that is getting the play style nailed down in the first season, so that subsequent seasons it's not an issue and is second nature to the squad.

This is a coach with big experience, and a pretty good track record in the Champions league. I can see the logic in what he is doing. Suffer the growing pains now, get back into the top 4, and next season have the players settled with the systems and his demands, that will be suitable for both domestic AND European style football.

I think he also has to stick with his plan, as it will show those who are not suited to his style and demands, and they are the targets for removal

bucketybuck

TheDoc wrote: »

I would have imagined there is a plan of development for the squad. And high on that is getting the play style nailed down in the first season, so that subsequent seasons it's not an issue and is second nature to the squad.

Quite apart from anything else, I think he is utterly failing to do this. Ten months since his appointment and that squad does not have a clue what they are supposed to be doing. By your logic his targets for removal will be every single member of the squad.

The Moldy Gowl

bangkok wrote: »

in fairness, id say 80% of footballers wouldn't be the brightest

Is say 99% of the population isn't the brightest.