CAF MK4 in Dire need of refurbishment

SpaceTime

I was on the CAF Intercity Mk4 in CityGold just before Christmas and I was really horrified at the state of it.

The carpets are threadbare, the arms of my seat were broken and the covers were coming off the seats in a lot of cases.
The standard class coaches were looking very very tatty too.

I'm shocked that they're looking that bad when they're not all that long in service.
I'll be avoiding the train from now on. This kind of stuff will put passengers off traveling on Irish Rail.

I assume they've blown the budget and they'll just let these trains fall to bits?

Also they're still very shakey. You definitely feel every pothole!

end of the road

SpaceTime wrote: »

I was on the CAF Intercity Mk4 in CityGold just before Christmas and I was really horrified at the state of it.

The carpets are threadbare, the arms of my seat were broken and the covers were coming off the seats in a lot of cases.
The standard class coaches were looking very very tatty too.

I'm shocked that they're looking that bad when they're not all that long in service.

i'm not TBH. i honestly think irish rail just don't want these carriges now that they aren't shiny and new.

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'll be avoiding the train from now on.

sorry to hear that.

SpaceTime wrote: »

This kind of stuff will put passengers off traveling on Irish Rail.

probably one of many things all right.

SpaceTime wrote: »

I assume they've blown the budget and they'll just let these trains fall to bits?

god knows. nothing irish rail does or will ever do shockes or surprises me. they do what they like and feck everyone else, thats always been the way. operational convenience comes first.

SpaceTime wrote: »

Also they're still very shakey. You definitely feel every pothole!

when i traveled on them a couple of years ago i didn't notice anything like that, but maybe the particular vehicle i was in was fine. did they not do modifications on them to sort out all that anyway?

SpaceTime

They're basically over due a mid life service at this stage. The carpets are an absolute mess!

corktina

SpaceTime wrote: »

They're basically over due a mid life service at this stage. The carpets are an absolute mess!

Mid life? they are almost new

SpaceTime

They should be getting regular in service tweaks.

Captain Chaos

corktina wrote: »

Mid life? they are almost new

8 years old at this stage. They are due a refurb alright, where to money is going to come from is another thing. Mid life is not the right term in this case though that's what the Enterprise stock is currently going through.

SpaceTime

Well an "early life" service then.
They're starting to look like a tatty living room sofa that's been through a few house parties and they urgently need sockets fitted.

They should be kitted out like this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji-h0CvaWws

The 22000s with leather seats fitted - looks very classy.

The MK4s would look fantastic with similar leather seating.

Jamie2k9

The 22000s with leather seats fitted - looks very classy.

Leather covers (if I am not mistaken), the seats are the exact same as standard class. Only fools would pay for first class service on the 22s.

n97 mini

Is it real leather or is it PU? The latter is very common these days.

I took a train to Cork a while back and agree with the OP. They're fairly tatty and the blue tinted windows give them an 80s look.

Markcheese

Almost all the airline seats are leather(ish) these days, I assume it's cos it's more hard wearing ,and the airline won't be a seat down if someone spills a drink - in the grand scheme of things it probably costs about the same -

Jamie2k9

n97 mini wrote: »

Is it real leather or is it PU? The latter is very common these days.

I took a train to Cork a while back and agree with the OP. They're fairly tatty and the blue tinted windows give them an 80s look.

Given Irish Rails financial situation I expect its not real.

BoatMad

SpaceTime wrote: »

Well an "early life" service then.
They're starting to look like a tatty living room sofa that's been through a few house parties and they urgently need sockets fitted.

They should be kitted out like this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji-h0CvaWws

The 22000s with leather seats fitted - looks very classy.

The MK4s would look fantastic with similar leather seating.

Bring back proper bench seats with high backs, now thats comfort. Not these nasty high density individual seats with minimal cushioning. Would you have one in your home ??, The victorians knew how to fashion an armchair, and they knew how to put one in a train.

end of the road

BoatMad wrote: »

Bring back proper bench seats with high backs, now thats comfort.

like the mark 2 and cravens stock had? yes i'd agree they were very comfortable and nothing since can match them

BoatMad

end of the road wrote: »

like the mark 2 and cravens stock had? yes i'd agree they were very comfortable and nothing since can match them

or the park royal three wide bench seat , heaven to curl up in on your own !

end of the road

BoatMad wrote: »

or the park royal three wide bench seat , heaven to curl up in on your own !

ah i see, sadly i was very young when the park royal carriges were withdrawn so i wouldn't remember them

BoatMad

end of the road wrote: »

ah i see, sadly i was very young when the park royal carriges were withdrawn so i wouldn't remember them

funny how as we ( or IR) modernise trains, they get LESS comfortable

I had the same experience in Italy, The ICE express trains are full of cramped uncomfortable seating, so I always try and get local stoping trains, these still have the joys of 6 seat compartments !!!!. Big plush comfy armchair style seats , miles better then the ICE seating, and a few nuns always for company !!.

I enver understand why rail transport gets worse and worse not better and better in terms of passenger experience.

SpaceTime

Because they're trying to make them look like aircraft.

Planes have to use smaller and lighter seats for obvious reasons. There's no real reason why train seats can't be very comfy.

The MK3 seats weren't great either. The first "modern" ones.

TGV seats are OK at times although the older Intercites trains in France are much much more comfortable.

BoatMad

SpaceTime wrote: »

Because they're trying to make them look like aircraft.

Planes have to use smaller and lighter seats for obvious reasons. There's no real reason why train seats can't be very comfy.

The MK3 seats weren't great either. The first "modern" ones.

TGV seats are OK at times although the older Intercites trains in France are much much more comfortable.

funny isn't , a transport mode that is struggling to retain ,market share, constantly creates experiences that increase passengers dis-comfort

Sounds like a winning formula to me:eek:

SpaceTime

I think it's possibly about form over function though. Most new trains just loom futuristic. The MK4 is the ultimate example of that.
Almost sci fi interior big pointy front end yet, its just a push-pull 160km/h traditional, low tech diesel train in reality.

BoatMad

SpaceTime wrote: »

I think it's possibly about form over function though. Most new trains just loom futuristic. The MK4 is the ultimate example of that.
Almost sci fi interior big pointy front end yet, its just a push-pull 160km/h traditional, low tech diesel train in reality.

is there an equivalent " hi-tech" version, that doesn't require flux capacitors or miles of overhead lines.

Who cares about futuristic, i want comfort. ( I remember a friend describing his lexus as his sitting room couch that does 70 mph.) thats sounds about right.

if I could get a nice cup of coffee and a half decent snack to boot, Id be in seventh heaven. I don't want a 100mph train with hard uncomfortable seats, I want a reliable dependant comfortable one that does 70mph every day all day.

Oh and facing seats please, god dammed aircraft style seating, chops up legroom.

Markcheese

BoatMad wrote: »

is there an equivalent " hi-tech" version, that doesn't require flux capacitors or miles of overhead lines.

Who cares about futuristic, i want comfort. ( I remember a friend describing his lexus as his sitting room couch that does 70 mph.) thats sounds about right.



if I could get a nice cup of coffee and a half decent snack to boot, Id be in seventh heaven. I don't want a 100mph train with hard uncomfortable seats, I want a reliable dependant comfortable one that does 70mph every day all day.

Oh and facing seats please, god dammed aircraft style seating, chops up legroom.

When I've gone cork-Dublin recently it's been grand ,not uncomfortable at all ,some people like facing seats-when it's busy some people would rather airline style seating ..

roundymac

I did'nt realise there was that much of a difference in ride comfort until I did a trip to Dublin before xmas. We went up on a Mk4 and returned on 22000. The Rotem was as comfortable as anything I ever remember being on, the Mk4 was very poor in comparision.

SpaceTime

There's definitely something not quite right about the ride quality on the MK4s. I think they should have had entirely new bogies fitted.

I found the ride quality on CAF medium speed trains in Spain poor too though. Perhaps they just have very hard suspensions?

BoatMad

Markcheese wrote: »

When I've gone cork-Dublin recently it's been grand ,not uncomfortable at all ,some people like facing seats-when it's busy some people would rather airline style seating ..

If you take ANY railway carriage which has both opposed and single facing seats, you will always find the opposed seating fills first.

corktina

Markcheese wrote: »

When I've gone cork-Dublin recently it's been grand ,not uncomfortable at all ,some people like facing seats-when it's busy some people would rather airline style seating ..

but forward facing seats only work 50% of the time, unlike aircraft

BoatMad

corktina wrote: »

but forward facing seats only work 50% of the time, unlike aircraft

single facing seats were introduced to maximise passenger loadings, they are particularly important as the speed rises and train weight must be reduced, this is done by packing more people into lighter carriages in an overall shorter train.

it has nothing to do with passenger comfort , and as such exemplifies what wrong with railing thinking, likes IRs , that sees efficiency over everything else. The most efficient railway being of course one that isn't there at all.

if you own a cow, you can't make it increasing efficient by loping of its legs , eventually it dies, the trick is to remember why you have a cow, to grow the milk business. IR just chops off legs,

The WRC promotion shows what happens when you remember your job is to promote passenger travel.

corktina

A choice of single facing seats and bays is quite widespread, I always go for the single facing seats rather than share a bay with three strangers.

SeanW

BoatMad wrote: »

Bring back proper bench seats with high backs, now thats comfort. Not these nasty high density individual seats with minimal cushioning. Would you have one in your home ??, The victorians knew how to fashion an armchair, and they knew how to put one in a train.

Mother of jaysus >_< "premier" my ass. They're just the same as Standard seats except for the (faux) leather covering and the gammy lamp ...

LXFlyer

BoatMad wrote: »

If you take ANY railway carriage which has both opposed and single facing seats, you will always find the opposed seating fills first.

Plenty of people (myself included) prefer single facing seats if travelling alone.

Losty Dublin

SpaceTime wrote: »

There's definitely something not quite right about the ride quality on the MK4s. I think they should have had entirely new bogies fitted.

I found the ride quality on CAF medium speed trains in Spain poor too though. Perhaps they just have very hard suspensions?

The issues in relation to their ride quality here owe a lot to some sections of the Per Way and line speeds. As line speeds increased and PW teams sort out some soft spots, their performances have improved a lot.

lucernarian

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The issues in relation to their ride quality here owe a lot to some sections of the Per Way and line speeds. As line speeds increased and PW teams sort out some soft spots, their performances have improved a lot.

Took a Mark 4 train to Portlaoise this week. I thought the train was in good condition with the exception of the upholstery on chairs and I found the lack of electric sockets to be annoying even if it didn't affect me. The blue tint to the windows was fine though a little too "blue" perhaps. I was told they had good ride quality compared to the 22K but I wasn't impressed with that part. From around Newbridge I think to Portarlington I found the train ride to be shockingly bumpy. I was suprised by how much everything rattled with small jolts you wouldn't experience on the Enterprise and after Portarlington it was much smoother and enjoyable. I checked my GPS during the rougher part and the recorded speed was 140 km/h.

Losty Dublin

lucernarian wrote: »

From around Newbridge I think to Portarlington I found the train ride to be shockingly bumpy. .

That section is forever bumpy

lucernarian

Losty Dublin wrote: »

That section is forever bumpy

When I took a 22K to Cork back in March I didn't notice it as much but then that could be because I was distracted. Not much to go on, I know:P

Markcheese

corktina wrote: »

but forward facing seats only work 50% of the time, unlike aircraft

:-) Ok - I meant non facing seats, yes 50% of all seating arrangements are facing the wrong way at some stage with a push pull system - unless you have moveable seat backs -

Captain Chaos

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The issues in relation to their ride quality here owe a lot to some sections of the Per Way and line speeds. As line speeds increased and PW teams sort out some soft spots, their performances have improved a lot.

The fact the DD stock, Mk3s and 22ks don't have these issues at speed suggest that's it's the design of the Mk4 bogies with Irish track that's the problem rather than purely our track standard. It's clear form day one that the Mk4s were not built optomized for Irish standard track.

The fact that even after bogie modifications carried out by CAF at Connolly that IE had to run further test trains years later involving halg Mk3 and half Mk4 stock run together shows there are still issues and at this stage most likely won't be solved.

end of the road

SeanW wrote: »

Mother of jaysus >_< "premier" my ass. They're just the same as Standard seats except for the (faux) leather covering and the gammy lamp ...

ah no the old bench type seats in the craven and mark 2 stock were pure luxury.

SpaceTime

All I know is I was on a CAF high speed (although not AVE) train from Madrid to Pamplona. It was very smooth on AVE (high speed track) running at 250km/h then it did a gauge switch and went on 160 km/h lines with close to Irish gauge and the ride was pretty poor. My coffee was stirring itself due to the vibrations and jolts.

I think they've suspension like a sports car. You can feel every bump.

Hyundai/Totem/Tokyu Car clearly designed the 22000s with much more suitable suspension systems. BREL would have designed the MK3 for variably quality 1970s/80s British track and I assume De Dietrich used similar suspensions to those used on French slow services like Corrail / Intercites or TER services that would run on much older, slower lines.

I'm sorry to say it, but I think the MK4 was a big error. A few extra sets of 22000s with proper CityGold cars would be much better.

end of the road

SpaceTime wrote: »

A few extra sets of 22000s with proper CityGold cars would be much better.

well, even with the mark 4s we don't have enough, we could still do with more sets. not going to happen though

SpaceTime

Ideally, something like a 22000 with 200km/h capabilities and a full CityGold or Enterprise 1st Plus type coach and dining facilities would be a great idea.

Money isn't going to allow it, but it'd be a far better option than either the existing MK4 or De Dietrich fleets.

Although the next best alternative would be power cars for the MK4 and the Enterprise. I wonder if that could be done as a single tender?
I don't see any reason why a single design of power car couldn't be used on both, even if it went a bit slower on the Belfast services. Just style it on the MK4 DVT. It would look very nice leading the Enterprise too.

I wonder though if something could be done to soften the suspension on the MK4 a bit more. It's not terrible, but it's definitely not soft enough. I know the Enterprise trains had some major issues with ride at one stage too.

corktina

If money were to be spent on it, I wouldn't go for 22000. Underfloor engines aren't ideal, so two power cars and trailer cars would be best

Losty Dublin

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The fact the DD stock, Mk3s and 22ks don't have these issues at speed suggest that's it's the design of the Mk4 bogies with Irish track that's the problem rather than purely our track standard. It's clear form day one that the Mk4s were not built optomized for Irish standard track.

True but they are different beasts and ordered to slightly different specs. As far as things go, the 22000's are definitely showing their worth compared to them and yes, I'd consider them to be superior to the Mark 4's

Jamie2k9

Losty Dublin wrote: »

True but they are different beasts and ordered to slightly different specs. As far as things go, the 22000's are definitely showing their worth compared to them and yes, I'd consider them to be superior to the Mark 4's

TBH the 22s are able to absorb a lot of movement especially on non recent track upgrades and even joined track they do really well.

The Mark 4s were designed for running on Spanish tracks. They do well on the Cork route bar Hazelhatch-Portarlington and Portlaoise-Thurles and Mallow-Cork but as line renewal continues they will improve.

As for new stock, it's most likely that it will be electrified stock.

If money were to be spent on it, I wouldn't go for 22000. Underfloor engines aren't ideal, so two power cars and trailer cars would be best

It's becoming more common and I can't see anything other than DMU's and it's not such a bad thing once the right stock is got.

roundymac

corktina wrote: »

If money were to be spent on it, I wouldn't go for 22000. Underfloor engines aren't ideal, so two power cars and trailer cars would be best

Why spend money on it if it ain't broken?

corktina

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

TBH the 22s are able to absorb a lot of movement especially on non recent track upgrades and even joined track they do really well.

The Mark 4s were designed for running on Spanish tracks. They do well on the Cork route bar Hazelhatch-Portarlington and Portlaoise-Thurles and Mallow-Cork but as line renewal continues they will improve.

As for new stock, it's most likely that it will be electrified stock.



It's becoming more common and I can't see anything other than DMU's and it's not such a bad thing once the right stock is got.

make your mind up...electrified or DMU (Non-Irish term)?

SpaceTime

Highly unlikely but, just put electric power cars on the MK4 and DD Enterprise...

The wiring might be a bit pricey tho.

BoatMad

end of the road wrote: »

well, even with the mark 4s we don't have enough, we could still do with more sets. not going to happen though

no problem, IR can just refurbish all that nice running Mk3 stock... oh wait a minute ...

end of the road

BoatMad wrote: »

no problem, IR can just refurbish all that nice running Mk3 stock... oh wait a minute ...

shhhhhhhhhhhh. were supposed to forget about such waste, pretend it never happened and that IE can do no wrong

SpaceTime

BoatMad wrote: »

no problem, IR can just refurbish all that nice running Mk3 stock... oh wait a minute ...

Yeah! You meant to say:
Those ancient old crocks from the olden days that were falling apart, rusty and absolutely beyond any hope of repair or refurbishment that we will never mention again!

Sure they were the wrong colour orange and everything, can you imagine the difficulty involved in getting all that off?! The undercoat alone would have cost billions.
Far easier to just buy new ones.

Also, no railway company anywhere in the world has ever successfully refitted or refurbished trains that old

end of the road

SpaceTime wrote: »

Yeah! You meant to say:
Those ancient old crocks from the olden days that were falling apart, rusty and absolutely beyond any hope of repair or refurbishment that we will never mention again!

Sure they were the wrong colour orange and everything, can you imagine the difficulty involved in getting all that off?! The undercoat alone would have cost billions.
Far easier to just buy new ones.

Also, no railway company anywhere in the world has ever successfully refitted or refurbished trains that old

god i know. shur in the UK they throw away their trains after a week. oh, wait, sorry, i meant, oh well, never mind

BoatMad

SpaceTime wrote: »

Yeah! You meant to say:
Those ancient old crocks from the olden days that were falling apart, rusty and absolutely beyond any hope of repair or refurbishment that we will never mention again!

Sure they were the wrong colour orange and everything, can you imagine the difficulty involved in getting all that off?! The undercoat alone would have cost billions.
Far easier to just buy new ones.

Also, no railway company anywhere in the world has ever successfully refitted or refurbished trains that old

agh now I see who wrote the capex justification , you're good !

corktina

end of the road wrote: »

god i know. shur in the UK they throw away their trains after a week. oh, wait, sorry, i meant, oh well, never mind

well I travelled on a lovely train, brand new it was, in the UK just before xmas. I enquired and apparently they are called "HSTs"