Chris Kyle American Sniper

Just a little Samba

One man served his country with honour, fought foreign invaders with basic equipment and retired to a quite life afterwards.

The other was a sociopath with a tendency to not let the truth get in the way of a good story.

MightyMandarin

Just a little Samba wrote: »

One man served his country with honour, fought foreign invaders with basic equipment and retired to a quite life afterwards.

The other was a sociopath with a tendency to not let the truth get in the way of a good story.

They both served their country imo. However Hayha was a bigger hero in my eyes. Fought with basic weaponry against a much bigger enemy and didn't bullsh*t about his story.

Kyle was a great shooter and was courageous in what he did. But he also milked a lot of his fame and made up a lot of things too.

true567

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CiYEksYQq0

If they met in a dark alley, Kyle would walk out alive. That pussy Simo would never be able to go through hell week. Just look at him.

1) 160, and yes that would be most deadly in history of most powerful military and also comparing the two is like comparing George Best and Ronaldo- you can't they're from different eras. You would need to compare him to others in his era. However, I can guarantee Kyle was the better "pure" shot he was essentially born with a shotgun in his hands. And if they ever had a shoot-off it wouldn't be close- no matter the weapon. Also, all of Simo's came within 100 days because he was facing a force that the people on this forum probably could've picked off. Essentially, the argument would be who is the better shot? Kyle, hands down- everytime.
2) He doesn't control that.
3) All of Kyle's proceeds went to the families of wounded warriors- that is not "capitalizing".
4) Subjective. But from interviews he looks awkward and it seems like he is uncomfortable. He also shades away from accomplishments and put focus on his teammates. Also, he was promoting his story so that he could generate money for the families who lost soldiers- all of his proceeds went to them.
5)Completely falsified. He never bragged about anything, and no proof whatsoever he lied of anything.
6) Is that an accomplishment? I don't know, but having 2 Silver Stars and 5 Bronze Stars surely is.

Paul_Hacket

true567 wrote: »

You attack my post by saying I'm wrong on all levels- and they state he was in the Army, and then attempt to "correct" me by saying he was in the Marines when he was only in the Navy. You are the definition of a ****face- I'll say that with no hesitation. Look at your posts where you try to one up me with wrong information- you are a complete ****face. You stated the wrong branch twice because you are a ****face. I don't have anger issues, you have intelligence issues.

That last paragraph didn't say anything of substance. But, it was your inability to argue the facts as it is well-documented. You lose all credibility when you argue with wrong information. How can one take your viewpoint seriously when you don't even know what branch he served in?

You're views aren't even your own either as they are clearly regurgitated from some looney like Michael Moore.

One last thing: this man accomplished more in his career than you or anyone in your gene pool ever will. Just want you to know that.

Wow, more pathetic ad hominem bile. You're not a very happy person, are you? It seems that pointing out that the object of your man crush was a comically idiotic liar has gotten under your skin.

I made the simple point that people have personal responsibility - nobody is forced to join the US armed forces. His amazing subsequent "achievements" were to take part in an illegal invasion where he boasted about how he was happy to kill any male of military age because all Muslims and Arabs are "savages" and how anybody who isn't Christian deserves what's coming to them.

But none of that matters, right? All that matters is that your love object was in the army instead of the navy. Do you really think your impressing anyone by resorting to this nonsense?

I suggest you go ahead and call me a ****face again or blather on about the
section of the gene pool I come from, because it's clearly all your capable of.


Go ahead and delude yourself that none of that amounts to me saying "anything of substance" if it makes you feel better about the fact that you have fallen in love with this pathetic little loon.

Paul_Hacket

true567 wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CiYEksYQq0


5)Completely falsified. He never bragged about anything, and no proof whatsoever he lied of anything.

So, just for the record. You believe his claims that:

1. He shot "dozens" of looters while perched atop the roof of the Superdome after Hurrican Katerina?
2. That he killed two carjackers at a service station in Texas in 2009 and that the government hushed it up?
3. That he punched Jesse Ventura in the face in a bar after Ventura demeaned the US military? (HINT: after a full trial a US jury found this was a total lie and awarded Ventural $1.8 million from Kyle's estate.

But you believe all of the above, yeah?

Good for you man.

donaghs

true567 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJZP-uejaBA

I don't support alot (most) of U.S. foreign policy, but at the end of the day you must remember an important fact. Chris Kyle, and other soldiers, don't pick where they go, the time, or what they do- they are told by commanders who are told by politicans voted in by the people. If the government wanted Chris Kyle to provide sniper support at a domestic port- he would've. It is just that they put him in a position to do a job and he did, did it well too. Anyone who uses an online forum to anonymously attack a fallen husband and father who served his country (knowing his country told him to kill insurgents) are pathetic.

It seems like people such as Michael Moore forget they don't pick the conflict- he joined in 1999 before the war even started- but he saw that many had lost their life and fought for fallen soldiers and the people he loved.

This was originally a thread about the film, more so than the actual man. If Chris Kyle in the film said he was just doing his duty, or "just following orders", I think that's more understandable than the view actually presented in the film. The film creates the impression that Iraq was invaded to avenge terrorist attacks and to remove a terrorist threat there. That's its better to fight them there than in "new york or san diego". Do you need a refresh on where Al Qaeda came from, where they were based, and what Iraq was like pre-2003?

riffmongous

true567 wrote: »

If they met in a dark alley, Kyle would walk out alive. That pussy Simo would never be able to go through hell week. Just look at him.

Is there also a chapter in Kyle's book where he talks about his dark alley death fight with Häyhä? :rolleyes:

John_D80

true567 wrote: »

What? He was not in the Marines. What the **** are you talking about? You clearly have no idea about anything regarding the U.S. military.

You just confirmed your ignorance on this topic. You first said Army, then Marines- no ****face he was in the U.S. Navy.

Re-read what you just wrote to yourself, and try telling yourself that you aren't retarded. I bet you won't be able to. No facts, just random, unorganized thoughts.

I'm not going to respond because I stopped reading after you said he was a Marine.

You're not doing your argument any favours by using words like ****face and retarded.

So the chap doesn't know the different services of the U.S. forces, so what? His points are still valid and well made.

AbusesToilets

On the point about donating profits from his book, that is not true at all. A very small percentage were donated to charity.

Topper Harley

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

So, just for the record. You believe his claims that:

1. He shot "dozens" of looters while perched atop the roof of the Superdome after Hurrican Katerina?
2. That he killed two carjackers at a service station in Texas in 2009 and that the government hushed it up?
3. That he punched Jesse Ventura in the face in a bar after Ventura demeaned the US military? (HINT: after a full trial a US jury found this was a total lie and awarded Ventural $1.8 million from Kyle's estate.

But you believe all of the above, yeah?

Good for you man.

I haven't read his book but as far as I'm aware, none of these claims are in it and his claims about Jesse Ventura are the only one's with any evidence that he actually made these claims.

I haven't seen anywhere that directly quotes Kyle making these claims but I have read an article (which I can't find now but will link to if I do find it) that claimed Kyle said he was aware of snipers going to New Orleans to shoot looters but that he did not condone this. And his words were then twisted and repeated to the point where it is just accepted that he did claim to shoot looters.

Topper Harley

true567 wrote: »

If they met in a dark alley, Kyle would walk out alive. That pussy Simo would never be able to go through hell week. Just look at him.

I'm surprised that someone who so vehemently admires and defends one 'hero'/soldier/man has so little regard for another, whose feats would be regarded by most as being achieved in much harsher circumstances.

Paul_Hacket

Topper Harley wrote: »

I haven't seen anywhere that directly quotes Kyle making these claims but I have read an article (which I can't find now but will link to if I do find it) that claimed Kyle said he was aware of snipers going to New Orleans to shoot looters but that he did not condone this. And his words were then twisted and repeated to the point where it is just accepted that he did claim to shoot looters.

Maybe you should educate yourself a little before making sweeping claims that this tool never lied:

Kyle was contacted by Brandon Webb, a veteran who had served with him on SEAL Team Three. Webb, now the editor of SOFREP, a Web site covering special-operations forces, invited Kyle and another former SEAL to participate in a taped discussion about life as a special operator. Webb asked Pat Kilbane, an actor, to moderate the discussion. Kyle met them at a bar in San Diego to tape the program.

The session went well. Kilbane told me that he was struck by Kyle’s “aura,” noting that whenever “he walked in the room the dynamic would change, the energy in the room would shift.” Afterward, a larger group went out for dinner, closed the hotel bar, and hung out in Kyle’s suite, drinking until late. The SEALs began telling stories, and Kyle offered a shocking one. In the days after Hurricane Katrina, he said, the law-and-order situation was dire. He and another sniper travelled to New Orleans, set up on top of the Superdome, and proceeded to shoot dozens of armed residents who were contributing to the chaos. Three people shared with me varied recollections of that evening: the first said that Kyle claimed to have shot thirty men on his own; according to the second, the story was that Kyle and the other sniper had shot thirty men between them; the third said that she couldn’t recall specific details.

I just gave you links to three article in national newspapers and magazines which quoted MULTIPLE friends of Kyle stating he made those claims. Did all those people just make those up? And as you admit, the BS about Ventura is in hos book.
Above is from a detailed article in a little magazine known as The New Yorker:
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/06/03/in-the-crosshairs

I haven't read his book but as far as I'm aware, none of these claims are in it and his claims about Jesse Ventura are the only one's with any evidence that he actually made these claims.

So we've established he lied about the entire incident with Ventura, yes? That was certainly the finding of the jury in his slander trial, the one where actual evidence was evaluated. Oh, and how come you have nothing to say about his claims to have killed two car jackers? He made this claim to multiple people on multiple occasions.

Go ahead and post some refutations to the evidence posted in the multiple links throughout this thread if you have any. Otherwise I think we can take it that you are have fallen for heaping servings of obvious nonsense spun by a racist little redneck with a gun.

Gatling

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

Maybe you should educate yourself a little before making sweeping claims that this tool never lied:

Kyle was contacted by Brandon Webb, a veteran who had served with him on SEAL Team Three. Webb, now the editor of SOFREP, a Web site covering special-operations forces, invited Kyle and another former SEAL to participate in a taped discussion about life as a special operator. Webb asked Pat Kilbane, an actor, to moderate the discussion. Kyle met them at a bar in San Diego to tape the program.

The session went well. Kilbane told me that he was struck by Kyle’s “aura,” noting that whenever “he walked in the room the dynamic would change, the energy in the room would shift.” Afterward, a larger group went out for dinner, closed the hotel bar, and hung out in Kyle’s suite, drinking until late. The SEALs began telling stories, and Kyle offered a shocking one. In the days after Hurricane Katrina, he said, the law-and-order situation was dire. He and another sniper travelled to New Orleans, set up on top of the Superdome, and proceeded to shoot dozens of armed residents who were contributing to the chaos. Three people shared with me varied recollections of that evening: the first said that Kyle claimed to have shot thirty men on his own; according to the second, the story was that Kyle and the other sniper had shot thirty men between them; the third said that she couldn’t recall specific details.
I just gave you links to three article in national newspapers and magazines which quoted MULTIPLE friends of Kyle stating he made those claims. Did all those people just make those up? And as you admit, the BS about Ventura is in hos book.

Above is from a detailed article in a little magazine known as The New Yorker:
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/06/03/in-the-crosshairs


Previously you were absolutely certain that Kyle never lied about anything (who was this guy - the first man on earth who never told a lie?). Now you're admitting that yup the fantasies about Ventura was in his book, kind of a contradition there, yeah?

Go ahead and post some refutations to the evidence posted in the multiple links throughout this thread if you have any. Otherwise I think we can take it that you are have fallen for heaping servings of obvious nonsense spun by a racist little redneck with a gun.

I'd take Brandon Webb word over any faux celebrity operators

Topper Harley

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

Maybe you should educate yourself a little before making sweeping claims that this tool never lied:

Kyle was contacted by Brandon Webb, a veteran who had served with him on SEAL Team Three. Webb, now the editor of SOFREP, a Web site covering special-operations forces, invited Kyle and another former SEAL to participate in a taped discussion about life as a special operator. Webb asked Pat Kilbane, an actor, to moderate the discussion. Kyle met them at a bar in San Diego to tape the program.

The session went well. Kilbane told me that he was struck by Kyle’s “aura,” noting that whenever “he walked in the room the dynamic would change, the energy in the room would shift.” Afterward, a larger group went out for dinner, closed the hotel bar, and hung out in Kyle’s suite, drinking until late. The SEALs began telling stories, and Kyle offered a shocking one. In the days after Hurricane Katrina, he said, the law-and-order situation was dire. He and another sniper travelled to New Orleans, set up on top of the Superdome, and proceeded to shoot dozens of armed residents who were contributing to the chaos. Three people shared with me varied recollections of that evening: the first said that Kyle claimed to have shot thirty men on his own; according to the second, the story was that Kyle and the other sniper had shot thirty men between them; the third said that she couldn’t recall specific details.
I just gave you links to three article in national newspapers and magazines which quoted MULTIPLE friends of Kyle stating he made those claims. Did all those people just make those up? And as you admit, the BS about Ventura is in hos book.

Above is from a detailed article in a little magazine known as The New Yorker:
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/06/03/in-the-crosshairs


Previously you were absolutely certain that Kyle never lied about anything (who was this guy - the first man on earth who never told a lie?). Now you're admitting that yup the fantasies about Ventura was in his book, kind of a contradition there, yeah?

Oh, and how come you have nothing to say about his claims to have killed two car jackers? He made this claim to multiple people on multiple occasions.

Go ahead and post some refutations to the evidence posted in the multiple links throughout this thread if you have any. Otherwise I think we can take it that you are have fallen for heaping servings of obvious nonsense spun by a racist little redneck with a gun.

You must think I'm someone else, I'm not one of the Chris Kyle fanboys. :pac:

I've just yet to see anywhere which has a quote from Kyle saying "I shot 30 looters in New Orleans." Instead it's always, he said Kyle claimed this and that.

Here's what Brandon Webb said:

In early 2012, I had an unexpected conversation with my friend Chris Kyle (author of American Sniper) about the Katrina debacle. I had heard rumblings about Special Operations (mainly SEALs) snipers being deployed to New Orleans to support the effort to restore order. He confirmed the rumors and shared his own intimate knowledge that close contacts of his, many who were apparently still serving on active duty, took leave to work for the controversial PMC (Private Military Company),Blackwater.

Chris went on to tell me that the bulk of the guys he knew directly had racked up over thirty kills between them near and around the Super Dome. I asked him about Rules of Engagement, and asked, “Who were they shooting at,” and he just gave me a big Texas shrug and smile. I figured out really quick that it was 180 grains of due process (usually to the head at 200M).

Again, this is a secondary source but it claims that Kyle knew of people going to New Orleans rather than that he himself was there.

The carjacking shooting story also only ever appears as a secondary source.

Whether or not he actually made these claims, I'm just trying to be objective and until I see definitive evidence that he did, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon of using them to discredit him.

Paul_Hacket

Again, this is a secondary source but it claims that Kyle knew of people going to New Orleans rather than that he himself was there.

The carjacking shooting story also only ever appears as a secondary source.

Whether or not he actually made these claims, I'm just trying to be objective and until I see definitive evidence that he did, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon of using them to discredit him.

The car jacking story was told directly to a journalist who was sympathetic to Kyle and told to him on multiple occasions. It was also told to multiple other people and has been widely documented. All of that is documented at the links above as well as here, a magazine story which was written with Kyle's full co-operation and over numerous interviews.

So just to clarify, you find no credibility in Kyle having said this despite the fact that multiple people who were sympathetic to him report him having made this claim? Which is more likely - that he actually said it or that all of these people are making it up?

He made the New Orelans claim in the presensce of two people, one of whom was a journalist, both were also ex-Seals and sympathetic to Kyle. He also told the tale numerous other times to other Seals. Why exactly are all of these comrades of Kyle's lying?

And the Ventura incident is a matter of court record.

You're claim not to be a Kyle "fanboy", so why are you showing a contrarian's degree of scepticism in regard to the mountain of negative evidence about Kyle's absurd claims?

Bill Clinton didn't put any direct quotes about playing sexy games with Monica Lewinsky in his autobiography, do you also disbelieve that they never occurred?

Topper Harley

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

The car jacking story was told directly to a journalist who was sympathetic to Kyle and told to him on multiple occasions. It was also told to multiple other people and has been widely documented. All of that is documented at the links above as well as here, a magazine story which was written with Kyle's full co-operation and over numerous interviews.

So just to clarify, you find no credibility in Kyle having said this despite the fact that multiple people who were sympathetic to him report him having made this claim? Which is more likely - that he actually said it or that all of these people are making it up?

That article tells "a story about Chris Kyle" which contains no quotes from Kyle making these claims but does say:

...I asked him about that story during an interview in his office last year ... He didn’t want to get into specifics about the gas station shooting, but I left that day believing it had happened.

The reporter later highlights the huge amount of evidence that the incident never took place yet still himself believes it happened. Or perhaps, the reporter wants it to have happened because "He was one of the few men in the entire world capable of such a feat." I think the reporter is a bit of a Chris Kyle fanboy.

That same reporter, in another article, claims that when he asked Kyle about the incident he said this:

“You mean the time I shot two guys trying to steal my truck?”...“It’s true,” he said. He proceeded to tell me about that day.

One of the articles claims it happened in 2009 and the other says 2010. It's also worth noting that those articles or any other I have found regarding the incident were written after Kyle's death. I find it hard to take those articles seriously and I get the feeling that the reporter is in fact the one who is a bit of a fantasist.

So which do I think is more likely - that he actually said it or that all of these people are making it up? Honestly, I can't say either way, neither would surprise me.

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

He made the New Orelans claim in the presensce of two people, one of whom was a journalist, both were also ex-Seals and sympathetic to Kyle. He also told the tale numerous other times to other Seals. Why exactly are all of these comrades of Kyle's lying?

Again, the main source of this claim comes from what Brandon Webb, the journalist and ex-SEAL, wrote:

In early 2012, I had an unexpected conversation with my friend Chris Kyle (author of American Sniper) about the Katrina debacle. I had heard rumblings about Special Operations (mainly SEALs) snipers being deployed to New Orleans to support the effort to restore order. He confirmed the rumors and shared his own intimate knowledge that close contacts of his, many who were apparently still serving on active duty, took leave to work for the controversial PMC (Private Military Company),Blackwater.

Chris went on to tell me that the bulk of the guys he knew directly had racked up over thirty kills between them near and around the Super Dome. I asked him about Rules of Engagement, and asked, “Who were they shooting at,” and he just gave me a big Texas shrug and smile. I figured out really quick that it was 180 grains of due process (usually to the head at 200M).

If you read it carefully, Webb says that Kyle claimed to have known about what happened but didn't actually claim to be there. From that, there is more anecdotal evidence that he claimed he personally killed 30 looters.

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

And the Ventura incident is a matter of court record.

I don't question that one at all, after all it has compelling evidence to support it unlike the others.

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

You're claim not to be a Kyle "fanboy", so why are you showing a contrarian's degree of scepticism in regard to the mountain of negative evidence about Kyle's absurd claims?

Because, regarding that mountain of evidence, I value quality over quantity. I didn't set out to defend Chris Kyle, but after reading so many claims that he claimed to have done this and that based purely on anecdotal evidence, it just didn't add up to me.

I see the die-hard Kyle fanboys, and I can see you've noticed them to, as they lose all semblance of reasoning trying to defend him for whatever reason. And then there's the other side, who seem to be more reasonable, yet surprisingly when they see any shred of evidence to support their claims that Kyle wasn't quite the 'hero' and nice guy he is portrayed as, they jump on it without first questioning and verifying it beyond doubt.

I don't claim to know exactly what Kyle actually claimed to have done but based on the huge amount of anecdotal evidence and lack of concrete evidence, I have my doubts.

Paul_Hacket

Topper Harley wrote: »

That article tells "a story about Chris Kyle" which contains no quotes from Kyle making these claims but does say:


The reporter later highlights the huge amount of evidence that the incident never took place yet still himself believes it happened. Or perhaps, the reporter wants it to have happened because "He was one of the few men in the entire world capable of such a feat." I think the reporter is a bit of a Chris Kyle fanboy.

That same reporter, in another article, claims that when he asked Kyle about the incident he said this:


One of the articles claims it happened in 2009 and the other says 2010. It's also worth noting that those articles or any other I have found regarding the incident were written after Kyle's death. I find it hard to take those articles seriously and I get the feeling that the reporter is in fact the one who is a bit of a fantasist.

So which do I think is more likely - that he actually said it or that all of these people are making it up? Honestly, I can't say either way, neither would surprise me.



Again, the main source of this claim comes from what Brandon Webb, the journalist and ex-SEAL, wrote:


If you read it carefully, Webb says that Kyle claimed to have known about what happened but didn't actually claim to be there. From that, there is more anecdotal evidence that he claimed he personally killed 30 looters.



I don't question that one at all, after all it has compelling evidence to support it unlike the others.



Because, regarding that mountain of evidence, I value quality over quantity. I didn't set out to defend Chris Kyle, but after reading so many claims that he claimed to have done this and that based purely on anecdotal evidence, it just didn't add up to me.

I see the die-hard Kyle fanboys, and I can see you've noticed them to, as they lose all semblance of reasoning trying to defend him for whatever reason. And then there's the other side, who seem to be more reasonable, yet surprisingly when they see any shred of evidence to support their claims that Kyle wasn't quite the 'hero' and nice guy he is portrayed as, they jump on it without first questioning and verifying it beyond doubt.

I don't claim to know exactly what Kyle actually claimed to have done but based on the huge amount of anecdotal evidence and lack of concrete evidence, I have my doubts.

You've really gone to ridiculous extremes to ignore the reality of this situation. Why are you pretending there is only one article and only one journalist who Kyle made these claims to? I've linked to numerous articles above, including a very detailed one in the New Yorker where Kyle is shown to have made these claims numerous times. I suppose the journalist who he made the claim to in front of an independent witness, both of whom are also Navy Seals is just a liar too right?

I guess your logic makes sense, after all, it's not like Kyle was exposed in open court as being a fabricator to such an absurd degree that his estate are paying a $1.8 million fine due to the nonsense he spewed. Yup, makes total sense that we should believe a guy like that and obviously decide that all his friends and aquaintances are lying for some bizarre, unexplained reason.

The Venura bullsh!t was stated by Kyle himself both on a radio show and on an interview on Fox News. Yet the incident never happened - it was a complete fabrication. His estate couldn't find a single witness to back up his side of the story. What kind of fantasist do you have to be to think that you can get away with pretending to have punched a well known figure like Jesse Ventura in a public bar? Oh yeah, a delusional tool who considers all Arabs and Muslims to be "savages".

But of course, you're not a fanboy.

Topper Harley

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

But of course, you're not a fanboy.

Have you even read any of my posts? I'm not saying that he definitely didn't make any of the claims. I'm specifically saying I don't know due to the fact that the mountains of evidence are based on hearsay.

Paul_Hacket

Topper Harley wrote: »

Have you even read any of my posts? I'm not saying that he definitely didn't make any of the claims. I'm specifically saying I don't know due to the fact that the mountains of evidence are based on hearsay.

When multiple journalists say that he made his claims directly to them it is no longer hearsay.

Which is more likely - that numerous people who are otherwise sympathetic to him are all lying and making up the same stories for some bizarre reason? Or that the guy who has been shown in a court of law to be a ridiculous fantasist did actually make these claims? There's a point where giving someone the benefit of the doubt becomes absurd.

Topper Harley

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

When multiple journalists say that he made his claims directly to them it is no longer hearsay.

Which is more likely - that numerous people who are otherwise sympathetic to him are all lying and making up the same stories for some bizarre reason? Or that the guy who has been shown in a court of law to be a ridiculous fantasist did actually make these claims? There's a point where giving someone the benefit of the doubt becomes absurd.

So you admit that there is doubt?

And that New Yorker article you mentioned took its information from the article previously refered to. It's just recycling the same inconclusive anecdotal evidence that he apparently told friends.

I'm just trying to look at it objectively. If some conclusive evidence comes to light, I'll fully accept that he made the claims but in the absence of such evidence, I'll reserve judgement.

Paul_Hacket

So you admit that there is doubt?

No, I really don't think there is any doubt beyond the most ridiculous conspiracy-theory level of nonsense. You seem to require people to explicitly state things in writing for them to be true, that kind of put you on the far side of reasonable.

And the New Yorker writer spoke to two of the people who had heard the story directly from Kyle, so I don't know what you're talking about. The D magazine writer confirms him hearing the story. And there are numerous others.

I asked you a simple question - why are this multitude of people who knew Kyle and were friends of his lying about claims he made? Why do numerous of them report that he told the same story? You have zero to say about that. If you wanted to have a philosphical discussion about the concept of absolute doubt you could have said so up front and saved everyone a lot of time.

Topper Harley

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

No, I really don't think there is any doubt beyond the most ridiculous conspiracy-theory level of nonsense. You seem to require people to explicitly state things in writing for them to be true, that kind of put you on the far side of reasonable.

How can it be conspiracy-theory level of nonsense when, rather than acquiescently accepting weak evidence, I just require proof that they actually said such things and that their words have not been altered and/or their meaning misunderstood. I just hope you're never the deciding member on a jury.

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

And the New Yorker writer spoke to two of the people who had heard the story directly from Kyle, so I don't know what you're talking about. The D magazine writer confirms him hearing the story. And there are numerous others.

I asked you a simple question - why are this multitude of people who knew Kyle and were friends of his lying about claims he made? Why do numerous of them report that he told the same story? You have zero to say about that. If you wanted to have a philosphical discussion about the concept of absolute doubt you could have said so up front and saved everyone a lot of time.

In my first post in this thread I stated that I hadn't seen any decent evidence that confirmed that he did in fact make all of these claims. I thought maybe someone could point to more conclusive evidence. That hasn't happened. It's just more of the same, "numerous articles", all of which end up referring back to the same Michael J. Mooney articles, and "he said it to numerous people." Who? I've only come across two names, Michael J. Mooney, who seems to be the sole source of information about these claims in every article and Brandon Webb, who said that Kyle claimed he knew of the New Orleans incident but never claimed to be there himself.

So why are this multitude of people who knew Kyle and were friends of his lying about claims he made? Why do numerous of them report that he told the same story? Maybe they're not lying, maybe he made the claims. Or maybe they (whoever 'they' are) are fantasists who are trying to ensure that their idol lives up to his moniker of "Legend".

You obviously have strong feelings about Chris Kyle and that's fair enough. You made some very good and valid points earlier about personal responsibility and US foreign policy in the Middle East, yet then give so much credence to claims based on fairly weak evidence. You seem to have made your mind up on the veracity of these claims about Kyle based on your hatred of him and you're not willing to consider their veracity, which is unfortunate because if you did, you might actually end up finding stronger evidence which you could throw in my face. I've looked for such evidence but haven't found any so far.

Paul_Hacket

Topper Harley wrote: »

How can it be conspiracy-theory level of nonsense when, rather than acquiescently accepting weak evidence, I just require proof that they actually said such things and that their words have not been altered and/or their meaning misunderstood.

This isn't what you are doing. You are subjectively calling multiple independent first person sources "weak evidence". That shows a ridiculous amount of bias, especially considering Kyle has been exposed in open court as somebody who lied repeatedly in a self-aggrandising way which is consistent to these stories. Added to that the fact that the people who claim Kyle said these things had nothing against him and have not been shown to be liars and you are just being stupid.

Mooney is not the sole source for these claims. The New Yorker journalist spoke to two independent people who heard them from Kyle first person. That is in the quote I gave above. Did the journalist just make that up? Kyle also made the claim to fellow SEAL Marcus Luttrell who published it in his book while Kyle was still alive without Kyle's objection. Even his wife wouldn't deny that he had stated the carjacking story.

At this point you are just being absurd. Go ahead and believe that ALL THESE PEOPLE are making up the same story about a verified liar and tell yourself you're being "objective" if you want. What you actually are being is a tedious pedant.

Topper Harley

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

This isn't what you are doing. You are subjectively calling multiple independent first person sources "weak evidence". That shows a ridiculous amount of bias, especially considering Kyle has been exposed in open court as somebody who lied repeatedly in a self-aggrandising way which is consistent to these stories. Added to that the fact that the people who claim Kyle said these things had nothing against him and have not been shown to be liars and you are just being stupid.

Mooney is not the sole source for these claims. The New Yorker journalist spoke to two independent people who heard them from Kyle first person. That is in the quote I gave above. Did the journalist just make that up? Kyle also made the claim to fellow SEAL Marcus Luttrell who published it in his book while Kyle was still alive without Kyle's objection. Even his wife wouldn't deny that he had stated the carjacking story.

At this point you are just being absurd. Go ahead and believe that ALL THESE PEOPLE are making up the same story about a verified liar and tell yourself you're being "objective" if you want. What you actually are being is a tedious pedant.

Wow, in the same post you've finally actually pointed to another source (Luttrel) which adds some weight to your argument and also resorted to petty name calling. And here I was thinking I was engaging in a discussion with an adult. Joke's on me I suppose. Or maybe it's just the sign of someone without the wit and wisdom to keep a level head when someone doesn't completely agree with their view.

Paul_Hacket

Hey, if you'd bothered to read the actual articles I'd linked to earlier, instead of continuously misrepresenting them and pompously demanding an absurd level of "proof" then you could have saved us both a lot of nonsense.

Manic Moran

true567 wrote: »

You attack my post by saying I'm wrong on all levels- and they state he was in the Army, and then attempt to "correct" me by saying he was in the Marines when he was only in the Navy. You are the definition of a ****face- I'll say that with no hesitation. Look at your posts where you try to one up me with wrong information- you are a complete ****face. You stated the wrong branch twice because you are a ****face. I don't have anger issues, you have intelligence issues.

That last paragraph didn't say anything of substance. But, it was your inability to argue the facts as it is well-documented. You lose all credibility when you argue with wrong information. How can one take your viewpoint seriously when you don't even know what branch he served in?

You're views aren't even your own either as they are clearly regurgitated from some looney like Michael Moore.

One last thing: this man accomplished more in his career than you or anyone in your gene pool ever will. Just want you to know that.

[Mod]Banned for two weeks. Uncivility[/mod]

Topper Harley

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

Hey, if you'd bothered to read the actual articles I'd linked to earlier, instead of continuously misrepresenting them and pompously demanding an absurd level of "proof" then you could have saved us both a lot of nonsense.

Your last post was your first mention of Luttrell and in all the articles you've linked to there's one single mention of Lutrell saying "There was a brief mention in Marcus Luttrell’s second book." That's it. Nothing more. But at least it had more substance than all the other articles which I'm starting to doubt you yourself have read or have just deluded yourself as to their content due to your increasing rage with Kyle and indeed me. (By merely trying to get you corroborate the claims in the article, I fear I'm now coming across as a Chris Kyle defender. I'm not.) If you read those articles closely enough you'd see that the ones not written by Michael J. Mooney, actually reference him and his articles as their source that Kyle made these claims. So that's one source, and a dodgy one at that, that has spawned dozens of articles by many different reporters. I apologise for not being like you and blindly accepting this hearsay as fact. And I understand that to expect any more than this hearsay as proof is absurd. How pompous of me.

Oh yes, but I forgot about the loads of people who knew him who also make these claims. I must have missed your link to them. No matter, it's conclusive enough for me.

I also notice how you consistently and conveniently ignore my reference to what Brandon Webb said regarding the alleged shootings in New Orleans in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, despite the fact that he is one of the "independent people who heard ... from Kyle first person." But then, what he said doesn't really fit into your agenda so let's ignore that too.

You probably don't even need to respond now, as I could nearly do it for you: I'm just a stupid, tedious pedant who ridiculously and pompously won't accept as definitive proof that Kyle made these claims even though loads of people say that loads of people said that he did.

Paul_Hacket

Topper Harley wrote: »

If you read those articles closely enough you'd see that the ones not written by Michael J. Mooney, actually reference him and his articles as their source that Kyle made these claims.

Afterward, a larger group went out for dinner, closed the hotel bar, and hung out in Kyle’s suite, drinking until late. The SEALs began telling stories, and Kyle offered a shocking one. In the days after Hurricane Katrina, he said, the law-and-order situation was dire. He and another sniper travelled to New Orleans, set up on top of the Superdome, and proceeded to shoot dozens of armed residents who were contributing to the chaos. Three people shared with me varied recollections of that evening: the first said that Kyle claimed to have shot thirty men on his own; according to the second, the story was that Kyle and the other sniper had shot thirty men between them; the third said that she couldn’t recall specific details.

SOURCE: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/06/03/in-the-crosshairs

Where does the below above from the New Yorker reference Michael Mooney? The New Yorker is a magazine that is absolutely famous for fact-checking, see Jay McInerney's Bright Lights Big City as a memoir of his time working as a fact checker there. Is the writer of this piece simply lying? It's pretty rich that you are lecturing me about not having read the articles I'm linking to and then making a blunder like this.

At this point you have gone far beyond ridiculous into something that is frankly strange.

Topper Harley

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

SOURCE: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/06/03/in-the-crosshairs

Where does the below above from the New Yorker reference Michael Mooney? The New Yorker is a magazine that is absolutely famous for fact-checking, see Jay McInerney's Bright Lights Big City as a memoir of his time working as a fact checker there. Is the writer of this piece simply lying? It's pretty rich that you are lecturing me about not having read the articles I'm linking to and then making a blunder like this.

At this point you have gone far beyond ridiculous into something that is frankly strange.

Three unnamed sources whose stories vary. And again you've ignored what Brandon Webb said. But whatever, when I see something that I think is more conclusive, I'll have an easier time believing it. You obviously have already made your mind up regardless. Nothing more for either of us to say really... unless you'd like to add more name calling.

Paul_Hacket

Topper Harley wrote: »

Three unnamed sources whose stories vary. And again you've ignored what Brandon Webb said. But whatever, when I see something that I think is more conclusive, I'll have an easier time believing it. You obviously have already made your mind up regardless. Nothing more for either of us to say really... unless you'd like to add more name calling.

I don't need to name call beyond pointing out that you are intellectually dishonest. I gave you two named sources above who heard the stories directly from Kyle above and two other (different) sources that were presented in the New Yorker article who were not named. Webb's story doesn't contradict theirs, it's simply different and he is clearly trying to help Kyle's reputation. Having said that, I'm sure Kyle said different things to different people - he was a drunk with anger issues and frequently made these claims in bars.

Nobody cares what you believe, I only objected to your false claims that there was no hard evidence he said these things - by any reasonable standard short of having a recordding of him saying them there is.