Are we and the IRFU doing enough?

CatFromHue

I personally think the clubs are done when it comes to the non affiliated general public.

I just don't think some randomer with no connection to a club is going to seek them out to watch them like they would with a province or national team.

Between the provinces and the national team there's pretty much a game a weekend from September through to the end of May so even the rugby following public will find it hard to go see a club game and then a province/national game.

The Lost Sheep

thomond2006 wrote: »

How about a magic weekend like in Super League for the opening round of the AIL? Market it as a big festival of Irish club rugby and rotate the venue every year. Play 3 or 4 matches per day. If people like the product then maybe they'll pop over to their local club for more matches.

I also think the provinces need to make more of an effort in letting supporters know what contracted players are playing AIL on a weekend. I know Munster mention it but it's always after a weekend. It would take little effort but generate a bit of interest. Even if it's a sidenote on provincial team announcements.

That would work. People criticised It at start of this season but I thought having all 5 division 1A games kicking off in Dublin in round 1 was a good start to the league. Maybe play most or all of them in the Aviva or something like that
Problem with contracted players and playing AIL is sometimes the clubs themselves don't know a player is available often until Thursday/Friday and that's late in the week to be trying to promote a player is available for a Saturday afternoon game

thomond2006

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Problem with contracted players and playing AIL is sometimes the clubs themselves don't know a player is available often until Thursday/Friday and that's late in the week to be trying to promote a player is available for a Saturday afternoon game

99% of provincial team announcements are on Thursday or Friday though. Even a separate article wouldn't be much work.

Yeah_Right

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The French/English games will be extremely difficult to get on the back of our last 10-12 games internationally. You turn the club games into more of an event. Deals with pubs etc in areas. Show ticket/membership card and discounts
Most clubs run dinners as fundraisers. Adapt them and get people in

Not sure what you mean by the bolded part. Like the rest of it though.

Beery Eyed

There are lots of good suggestions here & it's something that needs to be discussed more & improved. The standard of players in the league is very high & the games are always hard fought, enjoyable affairs.

As someone who played & has been affiliated with a club all my life it's always enjoyable to go down to a match & support them. However, as some people have alluded to earlier in the thread, if you are not associated with a club already it isn't always a welcoming place unfortunately. They tend to be very welcoming for new players, but there is little to no emphasis on gaining new support.

One of the key things that the provinces have done so well to welcome new support is to move away from the old cliquey nature of rugby clubs. It doesn't really matter at all if it's your first time heading along, it's still an enjoyable time to go & watch a game & nobody cares if you're new to it.

Beery Eyed

Another thing that was mentioned to me, by someone who moved over to Dublin & was a rugby fan, was that the teams are mostly representative of small groups & by their nature that makes them exclusive rather than inclusive. In one way that is a strength, but in terms of attracting newcomers to support the clubs it's a weakness.

For instance, in Dublin a lot of the teams are either connected to schools or universities, so unless you were associated with those groups why would you go & support them? Clontarf are probably one of the few that aren't, and they seem to have done well recently in appealing to new support in the local area there. They're the only AIL 1 club in north Dublin too.

Throughout the rest of the country more of the clubs are based around local areas, which is a bit better since at least in those cases you could appeal to people supporting their local team. However, many of these clubs have very small catchment areas to draw support from, which limits their potential support.

The Lost Sheep

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by the bolded part. Like the rest of it though.

The bolded bit was about tickets. Those games are always toughest to get tickets for but with the way the national side are playing and as its a world cup year they will be even harder to get. 1 of my 3 main sources for tickets is already closed off if I want to go to one of those games and im unlikely to get one from the other 2 as well

Beery Eyed wrote: »

There are lots of good suggestions here & it's something that needs to be discussed more & improved. The standard of players in the league is very high & the games are always hard fought, enjoyable affairs.

As someone who played & has been affiliated with a club all my life it's always enjoyable to go down to a match & support them. However, as some people have alluded to earlier in the thread, if you are not associated with a club already it isn't always a welcoming place unfortunately. They tend to be very welcoming for new players, but there is little to no emphasis on gaining new support.

One of the key things that the provinces have done so well to welcome new support is to move away from the old cliquey nature of rugby clubs. It doesn't really matter at all if it's your first time heading along, it's still an enjoyable time to go & watch a game & nobody cares if you're new to it.

I know ive been affiliated with a club my whole time and am probably the wrong person discussing this but I haven't seen that in most places but then again around a lot of the country and in some city clubs clubs are representation of a town/region which isn't so much the case in Dublin where there is a significant number of clubs which are old boy clubs of certain schools and that can very much affect how people get involved in such clubs if at all.
Yes the provinces have done that well but I haven't ever really seen any issue with a supposed cliquey nature of clubs... The role development officers have played at bringing the sport to the kids in local schools and then to the clubs and then parents get involved through underage system

Beery Eyed wrote: »

Another thing that was mentioned to me, by someone who moved over to Dublin & was a rugby fan, was that the teams are mostly representative of small groups & by their nature that makes them exclusive rather than inclusive. In one way that is a strength, but in terms of attracting newcomers to support the clubs it's a weakness.

For instance, in Dublin a lot of the teams are either connected to schools or universities, so unless you were associated with those groups why would you go & support them? Clontarf are probably one of the few that aren't, and they seem to have done well recently in appealing to new support in the local area there. They're the only AIL 1 club in north Dublin too.

Throughout the rest of the country more of the clubs are based around local areas, which is a bit better since at least in those cases you could appeal to people supporting their local team. However, many of these clubs have very small catchment areas to draw support from, which limits their potential support.

Fair points especially about in Dublin but would disagree about through the country clubs having small catchment areas. In the main they don't. Look at a lot of towns and the catchment area for a club is an entire town and parishes/area around that town.
Like of the senior rugby clubs in Dublin only Lansdowne, Bective, Clontarf(as you mention), Skerries and Seapoint aren't directly linked to a school/uni.

SaveOurLyric

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The support for the club game is an issue though and I don't see how you can say it isn't.
You haven't been to much or if you have a very small number of club AIL/J1 rugby if you think attendances have went up.

It isnt. The club game is about people playing a sport because they enjoy it (the game itself, the comraderie, the fitness, the competition, etc). Not how many spectators are watching them go about it. I go to no AIL/J1 games. I wouldnt go if I were given free tickets and the game was down the road.

You misunderstand my point. I would claim that attendances of spectators at rugby games are indeed up in the last 15 years - because people were presented with an attractive package by the professional era. I didnt say they are up for club games. The HC and Pro 12 provide much better entertainment for the spectator/fan than the old club system did. And so people attend those games. 20-30 high level games a year is plenty for even the pretty committed live fan. I assume support for club games themselves is down. And thats as it should be. The attractive talent is elsewhere and they dont deserve, nor should be looking for, attendances beyond those directly related to the players.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Talking about it being an amateur game and support not being relevant. :eek:

Being amateur means the stars are available elsewhere, so no need to watch a lower level of part-timers. And being their hobby rather than profession, then they play it for that reason. Not to attract ticket fees through the gates.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Not everyone will be brave enough/willing to spend €30+ on a pro12 ticket etc but is more likely spend a tenner on a club game, get a meal.

You are disproving yourself here. The reality is people are spending their 30 on a pro12 game and not the 10er on a club game. Or you wouldnt be saying low support for club games is a problem.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

We need to improve our systems, competitions. Get more social rugby.

I agree with this bit. But low grade social rugby is never going to attract support.

.ak

Just on the social rugby thing, it does support the senior teams imo. I've been to a fair few more AIL games than I would normally now that I play junior rugby. It's a mutual benefit, the more support the senior teams get the more paid players there are in the club and visa versa.

stephen_n

Realistically even in the glory days of the AIL, as a product it didn't have a broad fan base. It was always the club members who went to games, as opposed to the rugby fans who'd go to inter pros or internationals. Also the clubs were a lot bigger in those days, go back to the early 90's in Greystones we had 9 teams below senior, come cup time. So the overall membership of the club was more than double what it is now. Also at that stage the seniors had 3 Irish internationals, which is a hugely different standard to current teams. At that point with the product on offer, we'd hire a train for the away games in Limerick and Cork, now they wouldn't get enough fans at a home game to fill a train. For whatever reason and I'm not sure why, professionalism impacted very negatively on junior rugby, this diminished the fan base within the clubs who would actually watch AIL games and there in lies the problem, the clubs will never garner huge support outside of the club structure, so unless someone finds ways of re growing the junior game it's unlikely to get the AIL better support.

Tim Robbins

stephen_n wrote: »

Realistically even in the glory days of the AIL, as a product it didn't have a broad fan base. It was always the club members who went to games, as opposed to the rugby fans who'd go to inter pros or internationals. Also the clubs were a lot bigger in those days, go back to the early 90's in Greystones we had 9 teams below senior, come cup time. So the overall membership of the club was more than double what it is now. Also at that stage the seniors had 3 Irish internationals, which is a hugely different standard to current teams. At that point with the product on offer, we'd hire a train for the away games in Limerick and Cork, now they wouldn't get enough fans at a home game to fill a train. For whatever reason and I'm not sure why, professionalism impacted very negatively on junior rugby, this diminished the fan base within the clubs who would actually watch AIL games and there in lies the problem, the clubs will never garner huge support outside of the club structure, so unless someone finds ways of re growing the junior game it's unlikely to get the AIL better support.

Greystones is also a bit different in that it is a bit like a GAA club with a strong community feel to it.

Huge problem with Rugby clubs is that they don't really develop their players. 80% of them come from the schools. So all they need to do is to make sure they attract enough decent school players rather than develop their youths.

This creates a sense of pass through rather than lads who grow up going to senior matches wanting to play for them some day.

I have been involved with grass roots for both Rugby and GAA for very young kids (as I have a few) and the difference is staggering. I would love if some Rugby clubs took some ideas from GAA clubs in developing players to their full potential but it will never happen because the schools will always be miles ahead.

It is incredible to think that without doubt Blackrock school has been the strongest school in Ireland but they are nowhere near the strongest AIL side and never will be.

If you want a strong club game you need to be more like the GAA where there is a sense that every level is important from the 40 year olds to the 4 year olds.

stephen_n

Yeah Greystones is different in that now too, with something like 400 minis, they aren't just relying on the schools anymore. Clubs like Naas are the same I think and maybe that will be the way forward, we will see does it increase player retention then.

The Lost Sheep

.ak wrote: »

Just on the social rugby thing, it does support the senior teams imo. I've been to a fair few more AIL games than I would normally now that I play junior rugby. It's a mutual benefit, the more support the senior teams get the more paid players there are in the club and visa versa.

It does. If you have social rugby games on in a club on a Saturday around a senior game. Players will stay or be there for the senior game.

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

It isnt. The club game is about people playing a sport because they enjoy it (the game itself, the comraderie, the fitness, the competition, etc). Not how many spectators are watching them go about it. I go to no AIL/J1 games. I wouldnt go if I were given free tickets and the game was down the road.

The club game is about the spectators as well as they help create the ethos around the game and help support the club and the camaraderie etc is still relevant for supporters.

You misunderstand my point. I would claim that attendances of spectators at rugby games are indeed up in the last 15 years - because people were presented with an attractive package by the professional era. I didnt say they are up for club games. The HC and Pro 12 provide much better entertainment for the spectator/fan than the old club system did. And so people attend those games. 20-30 high level games a year is plenty for even the pretty committed live fan. I assume support for club games themselves is down. And thats as it should be. The attractive talent is elsewhere and they dont deserve, nor should be looking for, attendances beyond those directly related to the players.

The clubs should be looking for crowds beyond those directly related to players as how else can a club grow if you don't look beyond that small a number? Attendances are up the past 15 years simply because there is more matches and yes through a bit of success. The sport will fall to its knees without the club game and supporting it especially if the provinces go through a period going anything near what the welsh regions have for the past few years.
To say the clubs don't deserve or should be looking for people outside of those with a relation to the players is ridiculous. You invest in a club not a specific player

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Greystones is also a bit different in that it is a bit like a GAA club with a strong community feel to it.

Huge problem with Rugby clubs is that they don't really develop their players. 80% of them come from the schools. So all they need to do is to make sure they attract enough decent school players rather than develop their youths.

This creates a sense of pass through rather than lads who grow up going to senior matches wanting to play for them some day.

I have been involved with grass roots for both Rugby and GAA for very young kids (as I have a few) and the difference is staggering. I would love if some Rugby clubs took some ideas from GAA clubs in developing players to their full potential but it will never happen because the schools will always be miles ahead.

It is incredible to think that without doubt Blackrock school has been the strongest school in Ireland but they are nowhere near the strongest AIL side and never will be.

If you want a strong club game you need to be more like the GAA where there is a sense that every level is important from the 40 year olds to the 4 year olds.

Tim stop talking crap(bit in red). In most of the country rugby clubs develop the players that play for their senior/top club side. There's only a few areas where players solely play schools rugby for their teens and that's really just parts of Ulster and Dublin.

What do you want rugby clubs to take from GAA clubs? What would you propose the club game do to be more like the GAA?
The Blackrock club is in major debt, they have struggled to attract many players from the school and cant attract many top underage players.

The Lost Sheep

stephen_n wrote: »

Realistically even in the glory days of the AIL, as a product it didn't have a broad fan base. It was always the club members who went to games, as opposed to the rugby fans who'd go to inter pros or internationals. Also the clubs were a lot bigger in those days, go back to the early 90's in Greystones we had 9 teams below senior, come cup time. So the overall membership of the club was more than double what it is now. Also at that stage the seniors had 3 Irish internationals, which is a hugely different standard to current teams. At that point with the product on offer, we'd hire a train for the away games in Limerick and Cork, now they wouldn't get enough fans at a home game to fill a train. For whatever reason and I'm not sure why, professionalism impacted very negatively on junior rugby, this diminished the fan base within the clubs who would actually watch AIL games and there in lies the problem, the clubs will never garner huge support outside of the club structure, so unless someone finds ways of re growing the junior game it's unlikely to get the AIL better support.

Eh In the glory days of the AIL, the interpros got very very few going to games. The provinces only played 3 interpros a season until late in the 90s. The rugby fans were going to AIL games to a large degree as apart from internationals there was very little other rugby. Interpros were 3 games/province until 99.

The_Captain

In Dublin anyway, there's guys who played in school and the school team is what's important, not the local club. You leave school, you don't play SCT rugby anymore

Or you hit college and can't really be arsed to play for your club anymore. The insurance/membership costs will seriously impact your beer funds.
Maybe you'll play J4/J5 for the fun of the game, J3 if you can be bothered to put in time commitment

Rugby will always look crap compared to the numbers and sense of community in the GAA, but somewhere like St Marys will have comparable facilities and supporters as second tier football teams in Ireland.

justsomebloke

The problem for the AIL is that it is now for the most part disconnected from the Professional game and the professional game is where the interest is.

Rugby in this country is still a minority sport and we have a lot of transient supporters. Munster at the moment are the best case in point of this, due to the capacity of Thomond and that it has been slightly longer since they won the European cup. Thomond now rarely sells out, and that is with a lot of advertising and a top quality product to sell.

So the hard reality is that selling AIL as just a spectator sport is going to be very hard. The top players don't play in the AIL any more and the future players for the most part are brought through the academy systems.

With the amount of professional rugby now on through out the year, people will be drawn to that if they want to go see Rugby as they will see it as a better product, with better facilities and a better atmosphere.

Club Rugby is social rugby and that is where it's weakness is but also where it's potential strengths lies. Rugby as a sport has never been as popular as it has been now and there are a glut of people who are out there who would be interested in taking it up or getting involved with a local club but don't know how to.

THESE are the people club rugby needs to be targeting. The AIL can't compete with provincial Rugby as a 'paid' spectator sport and it is stupid for it to think they can, there just isn't the interest in Rugby in Ireland for them to be able to.

As you suggested you can't grow the crowds from just the relatives of the current squad, but if you grow the player base you automatically increase the potential spectator base and there is massive potential for clubs to grow their own numbers without much help from the IRFU. However if they are actually doing enough them selves is another thing.

I'm living in swords now 7-8 years and I don't think I've come across any advertising by either Swords or Malahide Rugby club. A few years ago I was going to take up Rugby and ended up going out to Tallaght to do it!!(after a few sessions I found out my body was to borked to do it, and didn't go back, but that is another story).

I was a PRIME candidate to help raise the numbers of my local club and in the ended up going miles out of my way as I had more information on it then my local club. This shouldn't be happening and it isn't the IRFU's fault.

Local clubs should be getting out there to promote them selves a hell of a lot more then they currently do and taking a leaf out of Tallaghts books and being a lot more proactive about getting people into the club, rather then as paying spectators. That is a sure fire way of swelling a club and you hav ethe numbers in the club you will end up will more bums in seats to watch the games

stephen_n

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Eh In the glory days of the AIL, the interpros got very very few going to games. The provinces only played 3 interpros a season until late in the 90s. The rugby fans were going to AIL games to a large degree as apart from internationals there was very little other rugby. Interpros were 3 games/province until 99.

Even then there were still people going to interpros and internationals, who never saw an AIL game, the clubs were supported predominantly from within as with most sports in this country, outside of soccer. How exactly do you think people who have no direct involvement with the clubs would be interested in the AIL? apart from some whimsical notion, that the IRFU should be promoting it to these notional fans.

The Lost Sheep

justsomebloke wrote: »

The problem for the AIL is that it is now for the most part disconnected from the Professional game and the professional game is where the interest is.

Rugby in this country is still a minority sport and we have a lot of transient supporters. Munster at the moment are the best case in point of this, due to the capacity of Thomond and that it has been slightly longer since they won the European cup. Thomond now rarely sells out, and that is with a lot of advertising and a top quality product to sell.

So the hard reality is that selling AIL as just a spectator sport is going to be very hard. The top players don't play in the AIL any more and the future players for the most part are brought through the academy systems.

With the amount of professional rugby now on through out the year, people will be drawn to that if they want to go see Rugby as they will see it as a better product, with better facilities and a better atmosphere.

Club Rugby is social rugby and that is where it's weakness is but also where it's potential strengths lies. Rugby as a sport has never been as popular as it has been now and there are a glut of people who are out there who would be interested in taking it up or getting involved with a local club but don't know how to.

THESE are the people club rugby needs to be targeting. The AIL can't compete with provincial Rugby as a 'paid' spectator sport and it is stupid for it to think they can, there just isn't the interest in Rugby in Ireland for them to be able to.

As you suggested you can't grow the crowds from just the relatives of the current squad, but if you grow the player base you automatically increase the potential spectator base and there is massive potential for clubs to grow their own numbers without much help from the IRFU. However if they are actually doing enough them selves is another thing.

I'm living in swords now 7-8 years and I don't think I've come across any advertising by either Swords or Malahide Rugby club. A few years ago I was going to take up Rugby and ended up going out to Tallaght to do it!!(after a few sessions I found out my body was to borked to do it, and didn't go back, but that is another story).

I was a PRIME candidate to help raise the numbers of my local club and in the ended up going miles out of my way as I had more information on it then my local club. This shouldn't be happening and it isn't the IRFU's fault.

Local clubs should be getting out there to promote them selves a hell of a lot more then they currently do and taking a leaf out of Tallaghts books and being a lot more proactive about getting people into the club, rather then as paying spectators. That is a sure fire way of swelling a club and you hav ethe numbers in the club you will end up will more bums in seats to watch the games

You can attract people who have got into the sport at the provincial professional level and get them into the clubs. Not everyone can get to Thomond etc every week but could get to more club games as theyre cheaper, closer(for a lot of people) and they can still see their province playing on tv in the local club/at home.
The players who go on to the top level due come through the academies but when theyre in the academies they are playing a lot of AIL especially considering their isn't enough B&I Cup level games for them not to play AIL.

stephen_n wrote: »

Even then there were still people going to interpros and internationals, who never saw an AIL game, the clubs were supported predominantly from within as with most sports in this country, outside of soccer. How exactly do you think people who have no direct involvement with the clubs would be interested in the AIL? apart from some whimsical notion, that the IRFU should be promoting it to these notional fans.

The provinces were nothing when the AIL was huge. The AIL was second to the internationals. You promote the league and show the links to the pro game and where players came from and link pplayers who played AIL recently and are now playing regularly in Pro12..

The_Captain wrote: »

In Dublin anyway, there's guys who played in school and the school team is what's important, not the local club. You leave school, you don't play SCT rugby anymore

Or you hit college and can't really be arsed to play for your club anymore. The insurance/membership costs will seriously impact your beer funds.
Maybe you'll play J4/J5 for the fun of the game, J3 if you can be bothered to put in time commitment

Rugby will always look crap compared to the numbers and sense of community in the GAA, but somewhere like St Marys will have comparable facilities and supporters as second tier football teams in Ireland.

You adapt the process with the schools. No teenager should go for 5/6 years of never once playing a game of rugby for a club side. You create links with clubs so that when young men enter third level they have links with a club or two and its easier to continue playing

Yeah_Right

Are there any leagues for over 35 year olds or under 85kg players? These are 2 competitions in NZ that are very popular among guys that want to keep playing at a social level. It keeps people involved in their local clubs which in turn means there more people watching the 1st team play and spending money in the bar/kitchen.

The Lost Sheep

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Are there any leagues for over 35 year olds or under 85kg players? These are 2 competitions in NZ that are very popular among guys that want to keep playing at a social level. It keeps people involved in their local clubs which in turn means there more people watching the 1st team play and spending money in the bar/kitchen.

Bective Rangers in Dublin created an over 35s league in Dublin 7/8 years ago but there isn't any regular competitions anywhere else
No weight category competitions here anywhere

stephen_n

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The provinces were nothing when the AIL was huge. The AIL was second to the internationals. You promote the league and show the links to the pro game and where players came from and link pplayers who played AIL recently and are now playing regularly in Pro12..

For a start, the AIL was never huge, the biggest attendances would only match a small Pro 12 game, even in it's hay day when it was heavily backed and televised. Then the product was vastly different, with Internationals and foreign players of a reasonably high standard. It may have seemed big at the time but in professional terms wasn't even remotely self financing, infact some clubs are still crippled with debt because of it. Apart from Munster who use AIL clubs instead of having a proper Academy, most players who make it don't come through AIL clubs anymore. Do you not think if there was a product there to sell, that the IRFU and clubs would be selling the hell out of it? You seem to have this strange idea there are loads of rugby fans out there, who be willing to pay for the pleasure of watching AIL games if the union promoted it better, when there is simply no evidence to support that notion. The union is involved in a long term strategy to grow the game, which is effective by building from the grass roots, rather than pumping money into a white elephant.

lazybones32

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Rob Murphy runs knockon.ie probably the best website covering grassroots rugby in the country. Ive written articles in the past for his site. Excellent site that covers a huge amount of rugby played across the country. What are people's thoughts on this article he wrote about the Connacht Senior Cup final(and club rugby in general) which was played this weekend?
http://www.knockon.ie/2014/12/15/e10-youre-laugh/

The club game is the foundation of the sport but cannot attract supporters who will go to the pro game unless they are die hards.
What can we do? IRFU are changing the AIL structure for next season and while I think the change should help things I have to agree with Rob that they are quite uninspiring and will not do anything what the IRFU hope they might.

The schools and clubs underage games are where we produce the players for the pro game but only a tiny portion of those players go on and become pros. The schools cups attract huge(too much possibly) media attention but what happens to the vast majority of the players after they leave school? Why do we have such high drop out rates at 13 years of age and 18/19? What can we do to improve those figures?

Thoughts?

Even as a member of my local Club, I am charged - and willingly pay - to attend games. The difference between maintaining a good pitch and maintaining a field is justification enough for this in my mind. We're not an AIL Team -and never will be - and because of no 'local' Team in this league to support, I don't attend any of the games.

Was the game advertised properly? Our PRO is fairly useless and uses his position to advertise his own business and neglects to adequately advertise games. One notice is placed in a free local advertiser and he considers this a job well-done. It is the responsibility of the Clubs involved to get bodies into the stands and you can't be expecting the IRFU to take control of every single facet of the game. Why weren't the under-age Teams invited? Even charge them 2 euro to get in or go free if they wear their club colours?

The IRFU are trying to promote more interest and at least it's something; even if it doesn't swell the attendances and training paddocks, it's better than doing nothing. They have many financial incentives available to all Clubs and this should nearly be enough on their part. If the locals aren't willing to work and promote their Club, why should someone else?

Every sport suffers from drop-outs and Rugby is still at least third in the pecking order after soccer and gaa. I see the future brighter now than it was 15 years ago. Lots of underage games, lots of underage teams and players. Lots of good people giving their time and skills to the Coaching aspect.

Work with what we've got and be efficient with it.

The Lost Sheep

stephen_n wrote: »

For a start, the AIL was never huge, the biggest attendances would only match a small Pro 12 game, even in it's hay day when it was heavily backed and televised. Then the product was vastly different, with Internationals and foreign players of a reasonably high standard. It may have seemed big at the time but in professional terms wasn't even remotely self financing, infact some clubs are still crippled with debt because of it. Apart from Munster who use AIL clubs instead of having a proper Academy, most players who make it don't come through AIL clubs anymore. Do you not think if there was a product there to sell, that the IRFU and clubs would be selling the hell out of it? You seem to have this strange idea there are loads of rugby fans out there, who be willing to pay for the pleasure of watching AIL games if the union promoted it better, when there is simply no evidence to support that notion. The union is involved in a long term strategy to grow the game, which is effective by building from the grass roots, rather than pumping money into a white elephant.

It was huge really when you compare a club/its catchment area to the provinces. 000s at games.
Some clubs are not crippled by debt because of solely the AIL its other reasons.
Munster have a proper academy and all provinces use AIL sides in conjunction with their academy.
The clubs are trying to sell it but the IRFU don't do anywhere near enough.
There is plenty of AIL fans and junior rugby fans who go to games weekly and there could easily be more with the right policies put in place.
How is what im looking for pumping money into a white elephant. This is the grass roots im talking about. AIL top level is still grassroots and we need a strong club game to help improve standards in the sport

stephen_n

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

1. The clubs are trying to sell it but the IRFU don't do anywhere near enough.

2. There is plenty of AIL fans and junior rugby fans who go to games weekly and there could easily be more with the right policies put in place.

3. How is what im looking for pumping money into a white elephant. This is the grass roots im talking about. AIL top level is still grassroots and we need a strong club game to help improve standards in the sport

1. What more could the IRFU do to get people to go to games, it's not like there are loads of people who would support it, if only they knew it was there?

2. Again I don't see where you think these supporters will come from, unless you grow the junior sections of the clubs, which would be brilliant but I have no idea how that's going to happen as no one has ever been able to explain to me why it died so much in the later 90's

3. Grassroots is minis and schools, which the Union and the provinces have put a lot of effort into growing, the development officers are paying dividends if you ask me, 5 schools in Tallaght now play rugby where as ten years ago there were none. They will feed clubs for years to come (if junior rugby can be sorted) it's not AIL that will make that happen, no matter how hard the union push it. This development will stand or fall on the success of the Irish and provincial teams, as the attraction for kids to play the game in the first place comes from there, not the clubs. Outside of Dublin the clubs youth sections have grown usually with the help of the Union and that really is the future of the game. I don't know if that's replicated around the country but certainly seems to be the case in Leinster.

The Lost Sheep

stephen_n wrote: »

1. What more could the IRFU do to get people to go to games, it's not like there are loads of people who would support it, if only they knew it was there?

2. Again I don't see where you think these supporters will come from, unless you grow the junior sections of the clubs, which would be brilliant but I have no idea how that's going to happen as no one has ever been able to explain to me why it died so much in the later 90's

3. Grassroots is minis and schools, which the Union and the provinces have put a lot of effort into growing, the development officers are paying dividends if you ask me, 5 schools in Tallaght now play rugby where as ten years ago there were none. They will feed clubs for years to come (if junior rugby can be sorted) it's not AIL that will make that happen, no matter how hard the union push it. This development will stand or fall on the success of the Irish and provincial teams, as the attraction for kids to play the game in the first place comes from there, not the clubs. Outside of Dublin the clubs youth sections have grown usually with the help of the Union and that really is the future of the game. I don't know if that's replicated around the country but certainly seems to be the case in Leinster.

IRFU can help with how competitions are ran, marketed. IRFU can let the Aviva be used for finals involving clubs. They can get more coverage of games or help clubs stream games etc. IrishRugbyTV could show more games
Grassroots is not simply age grade rugby like mini rugby, schools rugby and youths age grade rugby. Your junior 3/4/5 rugby is grassroots rugby.
There is loads more across many areas of the country to attract. Take parts of west clare, there is very little rugby clubs. You can attract them to clubs. Waterford City has 2 clubs. A whole city with 2 clubs. IRFU are not doing anywhere near enough to change that. Why are the IRFU not flooding areas with development officers to increase the playing base?
You increase number of supporters by showing them the product and getting games into more social situations
Playing in the AIL and being a senior club helps a club attract more support, more players and more support.

justsomebloke

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

IRFU can help with how competitions are ran, marketed. IRFU can let the Aviva be used for finals involving clubs. They can get more coverage of games or help clubs stream games etc. IrishRugbyTV could show more games

I'm not sure how big a club you are in but as a club have you looked into seeing if it was feasible to stream home games yourselves using basic cameras and internet connections?

stephen_n

Putting 5k people into the Aviva wouldn't help anyone, apart from the fact it costs huge money to put on an event there (over 500,000 iirc).

Yes junior rugby is hugely important as I stated earlier, but how exactly do you suggest that can be grown? What aren't the union doing in this regard?

Flooding areas with development officers will achieve nothing, working with schools is a slow process but productive. You do understand the laws of supply and demand don't you? The IRFU can't set up new clubs, they can support people who will and given how many new clubs there are in Dublin, where there is a demand, they're doing a good job. West Clare is a GAA heartland isn't it? I'm sure if a team was set up there, they would get the full backing of the branch.

The Lost Sheep

stephen_n wrote: »

Putting 5k people into the Aviva wouldn't help anyone, apart from the fact it costs huge money to put on an event there (over 500,000 iirc).

Yes junior rugby is hugely important as I stated earlier, but how exactly do you suggest that can be grown? What aren't the union doing in this regard?

Flooding areas with development officers will achieve nothing, working with schools is a slow process but productive. You do understand the laws of supply and demand don't you? The IRFU can't set up new clubs, they can support people who will and given how many new clubs there are in Dublin, where there is a demand, they're doing a good job. West Clare is a GAA heartland isn't it? I'm sure if a team was set up there, they would get the full backing of the branch.

The National Stadium should be used for the show cases of rugby and we only showcase a very small number of games in the Aviva. You wouldn't have the full costs of opening the Aviva for a game like a club final.
The IRFU and the branches aren't promoting clubs and finals enough. They are not even recognising in a lot of ways what the clubs are doing. Playing club finals in Aviva gives a headline day to all clubs rather than playing a final on Templeville Road, Temple Hill or wherever.
The Welsh, English, Scottish play these kids of games in their national stadiums. Why shouldn't we?
Flooding areas with development officers will achieve a lot. You get the game out to more people, more often and give those who have never or rarely played rugby in any bit of an organised fashion.
Have you seen much of what development officers do? I have and have spent countless days refereeing and coaching schools at primary and secondary level and more development officers helps that as more schools can receive more coaching, play more games etc

The Lost Sheep

Thought I might resurrect this thread with 2 interesting posts from Rob Murphy on Knockon.ie over the past few weeks....
Any thoughts?

http://www.knockon.ie/2015/09/21/huge-drop-playing-numbers/
http://www.knockon.ie/2015/09/30/grassroots-funding-dramatically-cut/

awec

Has the AIL ever tried to promote their games outside of the usual places (i.e. to their own members)? I would happily go watch AIL on the weekends Leinster are playing away but I've never seen games promoted anywhere. I've often wondered if it's a bit cliquey, Terenure are probably my closest club and I've wondered if I turn up are people going to be like "who is this guy"?