Are we and the IRFU doing enough?

The Lost Sheep

Rob Murphy runs knockon.ie probably the best website covering grassroots rugby in the country. Ive written articles in the past for his site. Excellent site that covers a huge amount of rugby played across the country. What are people's thoughts on this article he wrote about the Connacht Senior Cup final(and club rugby in general) which was played this weekend?
http://www.knockon.ie/2014/12/15/e10-youre-laugh/

The club game is the foundation of the sport but cannot attract supporters who will go to the pro game unless they are die hards.
What can we do? IRFU are changing the AIL structure for next season and while I think the change should help things I have to agree with Rob that they are quite uninspiring and will not do anything what the IRFU hope they might.

The schools and clubs underage games are where we produce the players for the pro game but only a tiny portion of those players go on and become pros. The schools cups attract huge(too much possibly) media attention but what happens to the vast majority of the players after they leave school? Why do we have such high drop out rates at 13 years of age and 18/19? What can we do to improve those figures?

Thoughts?

Hagz

I don't really know if there is anything you can do to attract people to watch AIL games. I mean take myself for example, I would never bother to go to an AIL game. I'm very interested to read the match reports and to see highlights on Youtube, but ultimately I'm not that keen to go to one of the games.

phog

I mentioned AIL fixtures clashing with other AIL games in Limerick or Munster games before, that sort of stuff has to impact on attendances.

ATM, I just can't afford the time nor the entrance fee to attend AIL games, though I try to supoort underage rugby fundraisers when I can. I feel for the clubs because they're the life blood of rugby.

.ak

The AIL games are often of a very good standard and are very entertaining. The thing is you need to translate that into a product if you want to sell tickets, which the IRFU and clubs do not do. There is an idea that AIL is for old club hounds and family members.

For me, the first thing is they need to make the top division a completely separate product. The average fan doesn't know anything about ail, never mind all the different divisions. You need to make it easier to understand. A simple league title would do the job. Then the provinces need to help out. As thomond2006 has suggested before some free tickets with your season ticket would be a great idea to get some new fans into the grounds.

Of course most pitches don't have seats or even proper terraces so really your average fan doesn't fancy standing on the sideline on a cold day and not seeing much rugby.

One of the best games I saw last year had to be Clontarf vs belvo in castle avenue though, cracking game.

SaveOurLyric

Sort of two points there.

1) Support for club games. I dont think its a problem at all. Its a mistake to expect or aim that they should attract supporters/attendances beyond fellow members, friends, and family of those playing. Its an amateur game played by those who play it for the fun of playing it. 'Support' for them is not relevant.
The entertainment supply for rugby supporters/fans is well catered for by the 4 provincial teams with the stars, internationals, and highest quality rugby. Over the last 15 year I would guess that the actual attendances at rugby games has increased dramatically over the old amateur days of the AIL etc.
So no action needed here.


2) Do you know hHow has the conversion rate of underage players to adult players developped in recent time? Are numbers lower than they were in the past ? Are clubs struggling to field teams to a greater extent than in the past ? Quite possibly simply an unwinnable battle against the changing world we live in. Many traditional sports or activities have falling numbers - the variety of leisuretime options today is very high with fewer people choosing any given sport.

thomond2006

The provincial diehards are a good demographic to target. Give provincial season ticket holders some free AIL passes. Give them a sample and they might come back for more. That would motivate me to go to a few matches here in Dublin, but otherwise like Hagz I wouldn't bother. The key is developing an emotional investment in supporters. If they go to a few matches and like the rugby (and the bar!) they maybe they'll pay in next time.

(I think I've said this here before?)

Edit: Cheers .ak, I did say this before!

An AIL match as a curtain raiser to a Pro12 game might be good when the pitches are in good nick. Do Lansdowne ever play in the back pitch before internationals at the Aviva?

errlloyd

As a ucd student I always kind of wished it would develop a kind of US college sports atmosphere. I think it would be easy enough to get that at college level and it would reach out to new fans.

dregin

How much is it on the gate for your average AIL match? Wouldn't mind heading to one.

.ak

dregin wrote: »

How much is it on the gate for your average AIL match? Wouldn't mind heading to one.

€10 usually.

The thing that got me going to more AIL games was the kids. Easier to introduce them to going to matches that way and they are generally on much earlier. Also cheaper if I end up having to leave.

Given RTE have thrown in the towel with the pro12 there might be an argument for them covering more A games.

Also like the coverage against the head gives to non inter pros - pity it's only on during international windows.

The Lost Sheep

Hagz wrote: »

I don't really know if there is anything you can do to attract people to watch AIL games. I mean take myself for example, I would never bother to go to an AIL game. I'm very interested to read the match reports and to see highlights on Youtube, but ultimately I'm not that keen to go to one of the games.

I totally disagree with you. You live in Dublin and the club culture isn't developed through players teens. And its very easy to just watch games and not be involved other than supporting Leinster/former school in schools cup
IRFU should be helping clubs in terms of floodlights as floodlight games can attract crowds especially those who'll stay out for a few drinks
The clubs are the driving force of the sport across the country. They are where the most people are involved in the sport and where we can build up support the most

phog wrote: »

I mentioned AIL fixtures clashing with other AIL games in Limerick or Munster games before, that sort of stuff has to impact on attendances.

ATM, I just can't afford the time nor the entrance fee to attend AIL games, though I try to supoort underage rugby fundraisers when I can. I feel for the clubs because they're the life blood of rugby.

Its impossible through the season for games not to clash though and while sometimes it is annoying unless you totally change the fixtures clashes will happen.

.ak wrote: »

The AIL games are often of a very good standard and are very entertaining. The thing is you need to translate that into a product if you want to sell tickets, which the IRFU and clubs do not do. There is an idea that AIL is for old club hounds and family members.

For me, the first thing is they need to make the top division a completely separate product. The average fan doesn't know anything about ail, never mind all the different divisions. You need to make it easier to understand. A simple league title would do the job. Then the provinces need to help out. As thomond2006 has suggested before some free tickets with your season ticket would be a great idea to get some new fans into the grounds.

Of course most pitches don't have seats or even proper terraces so really your average fan doesn't fancy standing on the sideline on a cold day and not seeing much rugby.

One of the best games I saw last year had to be Clontarf vs belvo in castle avenue though, cracking game.

Problem with making the top level a separate product is that its a tier system and should be kept. How do you decide which clubs and how many clubs per province etc should be in a closed off top flight?
Maybe not free tickets with a provincial ticket as clubs need the revenue but each supporters club member gets in their membership pack all fixtures for their local club.
Going on about seats and terraces is an issue and shows a large number go to provincial games for little to do with rugby and only there to be seen/social occasion and that's first with rugby second

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Sort of two points there.

1) Support for club games. I dont think its a problem at all. Its a mistake to expect or aim that they should attract supporters/attendances beyond fellow members, friends, and family of those playing. Its an amateur game played by those who play it for the fun of playing it. 'Support' for them is not relevant.
The entertainment supply for rugby supporters/fans is well catered for by the 4 provincial teams with the stars, internationals, and highest quality rugby. Over the last 15 year I would guess that the actual attendances at rugby games has increased dramatically over the old amateur days of the AIL etc.
So no action needed here.

2) Do you know hHow has the conversion rate of underage players to adult players developped in recent time? Are numbers lower than they were in the past ? Are clubs struggling to field teams to a greater extent than in the past ? Quite possibly simply an unwinnable battle against the changing world we live in. Many traditional sports or activities have falling numbers - the variety of leisuretime options today is very high with fewer people choosing any given sport.

The support for the club game is an issue though and I don't see how you can say it isn't.
You haven't been to much or if you have a very small number of club AIL/J1 rugby if you think attendances have went up.
Talking about it being an amateur game and support not being relevant. :eek:
Look at the GAA. We need to look to it and its club game to a large extent. Club rugby is community rugby. We don't have that in a lot of areas anywhere near as much as we should and that needs to change.
It isn't a mistake at all to expect or aim to use the club game to attract new people to the sport. Not everyone will be brave enough/willing to spend €30+ on a pro12 ticket etc but is more likely spend a tenner on a club game, get a meal. There certainly is issues with support of the club game but action needs to be taken to improve the standing of the club game

Don't have a link for figures but going on my own experience: refereeing, coaching underage for several seasons. Played until my early 20s....
IRFU figures from last season are nowhere near true in the drop off at 18-20 age group and that is very high
The change in Dublin from j1/2/3 etc to divisions has helped clubs a huge amount and there has been an increase in teams being fielded but overall there is a lot of clubs struggling to field. I don't see it as an unwinnable war. We need to improve our systems, competitions. Get more social rugby.

Hagz

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I totally disagree with you. You live in Dublin and the club culture isn't developed through players teens. And its very easy to just watch games and not be involved other than supporting Leinster/former school in schools cup
.

I'm not trying to be insulting but I genuinely not sure what you've said here. Am I right in thinking you've said that the club culture isn't as strong in Dublin, and that it is easy to support a team you're not affiliated with?

The Lost Sheep

thomond2006 wrote: »

The provincial diehards are a good demographic to target. Give provincial season ticket holders some free AIL passes. Give them a sample and they might come back for more. That would motivate me to go to a few matches here in Dublin, but otherwise like Hagz I wouldn't bother. The key is developing an emotional investment in supporters. If they go to a few matches and like the rugby (and the bar!) they maybe they'll pay in next time.

(I think I've said this here before?)

Edit: Cheers .ak, I did say this before!

An AIL match as a curtain raiser to a Pro12 game might be good when the pitches are in good nick. Do Lansdowne ever play in the back pitch before internationals at the Aviva?

Problem with giving free passes is there needs to be more that the clubs will gain from. Emotional investment yes but simply giving away free passes isn't the way. AIL match before a pro12 game would be good to see. Doubt Lansdowne/Wanderers would be let play before internationals with space etc needed

dregin wrote: »

How much is it on the gate for your average AIL match? Wouldn't mind heading to one.

€10 but depending on game you can get a pre match meal and wine etc for €15/20

Deleted User wrote: »

The thing that got me going to more AIL games was the kids. Easier to introduce them to going to matches that way and they are generally on much earlier. Also cheaper if I end up having to leave.

Given RTE have thrown in the towel with the pro12 there might be an argument for them covering more A games.

Also like the coverage against the head gives to non inter pros - pity it's only on during international windows.

RTE would be better off showing AIL games than A games as B&I cup games normally get something of a crowd. The rest don't. AIL games need the coverage more than Provincial A games which the provinces usually have good to very good highlights up on their websites

Hagz

I still have no idea what you've said here.

You live in Dublin and the club culture isn't developed through players teens.

Is there supposed to be a forward slash between players and teens? The club culture isn't developed through the players/teenagers?

And its very easy to just watch games and not be involved other than supporting Leinster/former school in schools cup

What is this point? It's easy to watch games and not get involved? ... What point are you making?

The Lost Sheep

Hagz wrote: »

I still have no idea what you've said here.



Is there supposed to be a forward slash between players and teens? The club culture isn't developed through the players/teenagers?



What is this point? It's easy to watch games and not get involved? ... What point are you making?

Its a lot easier to develop real links with clubs with players who play with a club side from 13-18/19 and on unlike In cities where players don't play for a club from the day they enter secondary school to the day they leave. That system does not help the club game as it allows such a fall off in numbers. Elsewhere the clubs can build a rapport/keep players as the players go through all the age groups and onto adult grades.
The point I was making at the end is that their is too many who played all through school and quite intensively and just drop out and become supporters and our current system is a major factor in that drop off of players. No links between clubs and schools. Schools playing 7 months of season and then no club rugby played for many clubs in Dublin makes it much much harder to get most who play in a school to continue playing

phog

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Its impossible through the season for games not to clash though and while sometimes it is annoying unless you totally change the fixtures clashes will happen.

I'm not asking for all games to have different dates/ko times but too many clash.

On the day Munster played Clermont in TP there were three Div 1 games in Limerick as well. To cap it all off Cork Con and Dolphin played two more games in Cork, when the Munster supporter was heading to TP. If you want to grow the support base then fixtures like these just don't make sense.

Yeah_Right

I went to a few AIL games when I lived in Dublin because mates were playing. Have to say I was surprised at the first one when they charged me to get in. I guess I was used to NZ club rugby which is free. It was enjoyable enough. Few pints with the lads afterwards.

Maybe they could get people to pick a club side when they order their season tickets and they then get some free tickets to that club's home AIL games. Or maybe they get a free burger/hot dog/pie and drink when they go.

I definitely think scheduling AIL games when there is a provincial match on is a mistake. What about some Friday or Thursday night AIL matches? Or double headers at the RDS? Curtain raisers to big matches is also a great idea. Obviously if the weather ruins the ground during the week/days before the main game, you move the curtain raiser.

The Lost Sheep

phog wrote: »

I'm not asking for all games to have different dates/ko times but too many clash.

On the day Munster played Clermont in TP there were three Div 1 games in Limerick as well. To cap it all off Cork Con and Dolphin played two more games in Cork, when the Munster supporter was heading to TP. If you want to grow the support base then fixtures like these just don't make sense.

Yes some scheduling is an issue but its the clubs that are the issue there not the IRFU. Clubs have to request changes to the set fixtures. The Munster game clashing with AIL. The AIL games were at 2.30 and the Munster game at 5.30. The clubs could get the crowds in to watch their game and then the crowd sticks around to watch Munster on the big screen/tv in the club house afterwards. Having fixtures like that gives people a chance to see both games

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I went to a few AIL games when I lived in Dublin because mates were playing. Have to say I was surprised at the first one when they charged me to get in. I guess I was used to NZ club rugby which is free. It was enjoyable enough. Few pints with the lads afterwards.

Maybe they could get people to pick a club side when they order their season tickets and they then get some free tickets to that club's home AIL games. Or maybe they get a free burger/hot dog/pie and drink when they go.

I definitely think scheduling AIL games when there is a provincial match on is a mistake. What about some Friday or Thursday night AIL matches? Or double headers at the RDS? Curtain raisers to big matches is also a great idea. Obviously if the weather ruins the ground during the week/days before the main game, you move the curtain raiser.

As ive said before. Clubs need the income from people paying at the gate. Maybe some incentive to go to club games. Free food/drink
There is loads of Friday Night games but only inter city games could be played on a Thursday night due to the travel involved

phog

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

. The Munster game clashing with AIL. The AIL games were at 2.30 and the Munster game at 5.30. The clubs could get the crowds in to watch their game and then the crowd sticks around to watch Munster on the big screen/tv in the club house afterwards. Having fixtures like that gives people a chance to see both games

That's fine for those fans that are already AIL supporters and like to watch the provinicial games but it doesn't suit the provincial fans that you're trying to get to go to AIL games.

Yes some scheduling is an issue but its the clubs that are the issue there not the IRFU. Clubs have to request changes to the set fixtures

Why schedule the games in the first place and then have two clubs arguing over the rescheduling - avoid International, H/Cup and InterPro weekends at least.

CatFromHue

Are the clubs still paying players?

People who have no affiliation to a club, even some that do, aren't going to pay to watch them. That's even if they want to watch them in the first place.

desertcircus

I don't know if anything can be done, or indeed should be done. It's possible that we'll only ever have fifty thousand or so hardcore rugby fans in Ireland, and that what we have now is the best possible setup for the professional era. The reason rugby gets nowhere near the same crowds at club level as the GAA is because the GAA is vastly bigger at every level. Unless there's a way to pull thousands of extra fans to the fifth tier in the Irish rugby hierarchy (Test, Europe, Pro12, A teams, AIL) who've been immune to the charms of the upper levels, you're effectively looking for a significant increase in interest from existing fans, many of whom are already atemding fifteen matches a season and quite a few of whom are also following other sports. It may simply be the case that the AIL's future is as a participant league, not a spectator one.

Yeah_Right

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Yes some scheduling is an issue but its the clubs that are the issue there not the IRFU. Clubs have to request changes to the set fixtures. The Munster game clashing with AIL. The AIL games were at 2.30 and the Munster game at 5.30. The clubs could get the crowds in to watch their game and then the crowd sticks around to watch Munster on the big screen/tv in the club house afterwards. Having fixtures like that gives people a chance to see both games

As ive said before. Clubs need the income from people paying at the gate. Maybe some incentive to go to club games. Free food/drink
There is loads of Friday Night games but only inter city games could be played on a Thursday night due to the travel involved

i like the idea of watching a provincial or international match on the big screen at a rugby club. Used to do it all the time back home. The way to do it would be to have some sort of drink and/or food specials for the big game. Maybe present your AIL ticket and get some tokens. Would work especially well if the main match was out of town. Could promote it by having some of the players go along to nearby Tag rugby nights and hand out flyers, tokens etc.

Had no idea that they played Friday night games. Obviously travel is a factor so it would have to be 2 local teams playing. Same with a Thursday night.

phog

CatFromHue wrote: »

Are the clubs still paying players?

People who have no affiliation to a club, even some that do, aren't going to pay to watch them. That's even if they want to watch them in the first place.

I know some clubs pay for gym sessions, match and medical expenses.

The Lost Sheep

phog wrote: »

That's fine for those fans that are already AIL supporters and like to watch the provinicial games but it doesn't suit the provincial fans that you're trying to get to go to AIL games.



Why schedule the games in the first place and then have two clubs arguing over the rescheduling - avoid International, H/Cup and InterPro weekends at least.

Their is plenty who don't go to provincial games but watch them on tv. Change things so that they can support their local club and still watch their province

Their is 8 international weekends a season, a minimum of 6 European weekends and 6 interpro games in the regular season. That's 20 weekends minimum. How in gods name do you expect club sides to avoid all of those weekends. There's only so many weeks in a season.

CatFromHue wrote: »

Are the clubs still paying players?

People who have no affiliation to a club, even some that do, aren't going to pay to watch them. That's even if they want to watch them in the first place.

Some are. Some not. Very difficult to know if they are.

We need to build an ethos of club rugby as there is too many who are just arm chair supporters and only support their school, province and national side and that doesn't go anywhere near far enough to help the game

desertcircus wrote: »

I don't know if anything can be done, or indeed should be done. It's possible that we'll only ever have fifty thousand or so hardcore rugby fans in Ireland, and that what we have now is the best possible setup for the professional era. The reason rugby gets nowhere near the same crowds at club level as the GAA is because the GAA is vastly bigger at every level. Unless there's a way to pull thousands of extra fans to the fifth tier in the Irish rugby hierarchy (Test, Europe, Pro12, A teams, AIL) who've been immune to the charms of the upper levels, you're effectively looking for a significant increase in interest from existing fans, many of whom are already atemding fifteen matches a season and quite a few of whom are also following other sports. It may simply be the case that the AIL's future is as a participant league, not a spectator one.

There is a lot more that can be done. Rugby is non existent in large parts of the country. The A teams play a max of 10-15 games a season. Without support for the AIL and knock on effects at other levels of club game. The pro side of the sport will suffer. There is 50 senior clubs(from next season). 2000 new supporters is 20 per club. Take in the top tier of junior clubs in each province and there is another 50 or so clubs. And do the same. 4000 people across the entire country, Is that really that difficult with the right systems in place?

phog

Yeah_Right wrote: »

i like the idea of watching a provincial or international match on the big screen at a rugby club. Used to do it all the time back home. The way to do it would be to have some sort of drink and/or food specials for the big game. Maybe present your AIL ticket and get some tokens. Would work especially well if the main match was out of town. Could promote it by having some of the players go along to nearby Tag rugby nights and hand out flyers, tokens etc.

Had no idea that they played Friday night games. Obviously travel is a factor so it would have to be 2 local teams playing. Same with a Thursday night.

The idea of watching provincial or international games in the club house might work better for away games. I really don't see it catching on for home games.

Yeah_Right

phog wrote: »

The idea of watching provincial or international games in the club house might work better for away games. I really don't see it catching on for home games.

I'd say you are spot on in regards to the provincial matches. Internationals it can still work. These can sell out pretty quickly so in some cases there might still be interest in watching the game down at a club. I imagine tickets to 6 Nations matches next year vs France and England will be tough to get so why not give fans another option. I'd happily watch a game like that down at the local club.

Someone mentioned earlier that a significant number of rugby fans are into the "event" not just the match. And there is nothing wrong with that. People want to be entertained and they want value for money. How to get more of these people interested in AIL? I don't know. The clubs have to try things and not wait for the IRFU. Maybe get former players involved. Get a club old boy who represented Ireland, won HEC et to come and do a Q&A session, dinner speach after an AIL match. Sell tickets that include watching the game.

sydthebeat

sad to say but as a member of a midlands club the AIL means nothing to me.
Naas in division 2A would be highest placed team near me.
Tullamore is in 2B.

i suppose its like lower league english soccer, you support you local team.
the biggest games of the season are the towns cup games for our club.

deadybai

I think the only way to get people interested in going to AIL game is to show some games on TV. Even a highlights show. Now I'm admittedly a bandwagon rugby fan (Only watch Ireland games and big Heineken Cup matches. Mainly a GAA), so really I wouldnt have a clue about club rugby in Ireland. If there was a few games on tv I would watch it and this would spark some interest in the game especially if a local club was play. So say I was following a local club throughout the season on TV and they had a huge match coming up, would I be more inclined to go to the match. The answer is yes. It would be even handier to attend if you lived in Dublin. I think tv coverage is a huge advertisement for the game, even if it was show on Tg4 I wouldnt mind.

desertcircus

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Their is plenty who don't go to provincial games but watch them on tv. Change things so that they can support their local club and still watch their province

Their is 8 international weekends a season, a minimum of 6 European weekends and 6 interpro games in the regular season. That's 20 weekends minimum. How in gods name do you expect club sides to avoid all of those weekends. There's only so many weeks in a season.
Some are. Some not. Very difficult to know if they are.

We need to build an ethos of club rugby as there is too many who are just arm chair supporters and only support their school, province and national side and that doesn't go anywhere near far enough to help the game

There is a lot more that can be done. Rugby is non existent in large parts of the country. The A teams play a max of 10-15 games a season. Without support for the AIL and knock on effects at other levels of club game. The pro side of the sport will suffer. There is 50 senior clubs(from next season). 2000 new supporters is 20 per club. Take in the top tier of junior clubs in each province and there is another 50 or so clubs. And do the same. 4000 people across the entire country, Is that really that difficult with the right systems in place?

Honestly? Getting attendance up by those numbers would be brutally difficult. You'd need a national campaign, and with falling ticket sales at provincial level, the AIL isn't a priority. What's more, I don't think anyone outside the clubs would lose out if the AIL lost all its spectators. The provincial academies are providing the bulk of players for the professional ranks, and a lot of others cut their teeth in England. A slight drop in AIL standards would have a marginal impact on the quality of provincial sides.

thomond2006

How about a magic weekend like in Super League for the opening round of the AIL? Market it as a big festival of Irish club rugby and rotate the venue every year. Play 3 or 4 matches per day. If people like the product then maybe they'll pop over to their local club for more matches.

I also think the provinces need to make more of an effort in letting supporters know what contracted players are playing AIL on a weekend. I know Munster mention it but it's always after a weekend. It would take little effort but generate a bit of interest. Even if it's a sidenote on provincial team announcements.

The Lost Sheep

phog wrote: »

The idea of watching provincial or international games in the club house might work better for away games. I really don't see it catching on for home games.

It works for away games and with right policies in terms of advertising etc it would work for home games and does already work for some of them
Aviva can only accommodate x amount of people. People will be watching the international so you work to get them into the club to watch

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I'd say you are spot on in regards to the provincial matches. Internationals it can still work. These can sell out pretty quickly so in some cases there might still be interest in watching the game down at a club. I imagine tickets to 6 Nations matches next year vs France and England will be tough to get so why not give fans another option. I'd happily watch a game like that down at the local club.

Someone mentioned earlier that a significant number of rugby fans are into the "event" not just the match. And there is nothing wrong with that. People want to be entertained and they want value for money. How to get more of these people interested in AIL? I don't know. The clubs have to try things and not wait for the IRFU. Maybe get former players involved. Get a club old boy who represented Ireland, won HEC et to come and do a Q&A session, dinner speach after an AIL match. Sell tickets that include watching the game.

The French/English games will be extremely difficult to get on the back of our last 10-12 games internationally. You turn the club games into more of an event. Deals with pubs etc in areas. Show ticket/membership card and discounts
Most clubs run dinners as fundraisers. Adapt them and get people in

deadybai wrote: »

I think the only way to get people interested in going to AIL game is to show some games on TV. Even a highlights show. Now I'm admittedly a bandwagon rugby fan (Only watch Ireland games and big Heineken Cup matches. Mainly a GAA), so really I wouldnt have a clue about club rugby in Ireland. If there was a few games on tv I would watch it and this would spark some interest in the game especially if a local club was play. So say I was following a local club throughout the season on TV and they had a huge match coming up, would I be more inclined to go to the match. The answer is yes. It would be even handier to attend if you lived in Dublin. I think tv coverage is a huge advertisement for the game, even if it was show on Tg4 I wouldnt mind.

There is highlights of some games on IRFU website and expanding that would be great. Aer TV were streaming games last season which hasn't happened as much this season
Problem with tv coverage is tv companies would only really be interested in the top flight so how do you deal with the other divisions

desertcircus wrote: »

Honestly? Getting attendance up by those numbers would be brutally difficult. You'd need a national campaign, and with falling ticket sales at provincial level, the AIL isn't a priority. What's more, I don't think anyone outside the clubs would lose out if the AIL lost all its spectators. The provincial academies are providing the bulk of players for the professional ranks, and a lot of others cut their teeth in England. A slight drop in AIL standards would have a marginal impact on the quality of provincial sides.

The academies still rely hugely on the AIL for player development and without the AIL player development in the academies would suffer a lot. The clubs are the bedrock of the game in the country. If AIL sides lose their support, the club struggles and if the clubs struggle the sport struggles ten
Yu really are underestimating the role AIL has to play in the development of a significant number of players still to this day.
If the academies played more or provincial A teams more often you would have a point but most academy players will play most often in a season in the AIL

CatFromHue

I personally think the clubs are done when it comes to the non affiliated general public.

I just don't think some randomer with no connection to a club is going to seek them out to watch them like they would with a province or national team.

Between the provinces and the national team there's pretty much a game a weekend from September through to the end of May so even the rugby following public will find it hard to go see a club game and then a province/national game.

The Lost Sheep

thomond2006 wrote: »

How about a magic weekend like in Super League for the opening round of the AIL? Market it as a big festival of Irish club rugby and rotate the venue every year. Play 3 or 4 matches per day. If people like the product then maybe they'll pop over to their local club for more matches.

I also think the provinces need to make more of an effort in letting supporters know what contracted players are playing AIL on a weekend. I know Munster mention it but it's always after a weekend. It would take little effort but generate a bit of interest. Even if it's a sidenote on provincial team announcements.

That would work. People criticised It at start of this season but I thought having all 5 division 1A games kicking off in Dublin in round 1 was a good start to the league. Maybe play most or all of them in the Aviva or something like that
Problem with contracted players and playing AIL is sometimes the clubs themselves don't know a player is available often until Thursday/Friday and that's late in the week to be trying to promote a player is available for a Saturday afternoon game

thomond2006

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Problem with contracted players and playing AIL is sometimes the clubs themselves don't know a player is available often until Thursday/Friday and that's late in the week to be trying to promote a player is available for a Saturday afternoon game

99% of provincial team announcements are on Thursday or Friday though. Even a separate article wouldn't be much work.

Yeah_Right

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The French/English games will be extremely difficult to get on the back of our last 10-12 games internationally. You turn the club games into more of an event. Deals with pubs etc in areas. Show ticket/membership card and discounts
Most clubs run dinners as fundraisers. Adapt them and get people in

Not sure what you mean by the bolded part. Like the rest of it though.

Beery Eyed

There are lots of good suggestions here & it's something that needs to be discussed more & improved. The standard of players in the league is very high & the games are always hard fought, enjoyable affairs.

As someone who played & has been affiliated with a club all my life it's always enjoyable to go down to a match & support them. However, as some people have alluded to earlier in the thread, if you are not associated with a club already it isn't always a welcoming place unfortunately. They tend to be very welcoming for new players, but there is little to no emphasis on gaining new support.

One of the key things that the provinces have done so well to welcome new support is to move away from the old cliquey nature of rugby clubs. It doesn't really matter at all if it's your first time heading along, it's still an enjoyable time to go & watch a game & nobody cares if you're new to it.

Beery Eyed

Another thing that was mentioned to me, by someone who moved over to Dublin & was a rugby fan, was that the teams are mostly representative of small groups & by their nature that makes them exclusive rather than inclusive. In one way that is a strength, but in terms of attracting newcomers to support the clubs it's a weakness.

For instance, in Dublin a lot of the teams are either connected to schools or universities, so unless you were associated with those groups why would you go & support them? Clontarf are probably one of the few that aren't, and they seem to have done well recently in appealing to new support in the local area there. They're the only AIL 1 club in north Dublin too.

Throughout the rest of the country more of the clubs are based around local areas, which is a bit better since at least in those cases you could appeal to people supporting their local team. However, many of these clubs have very small catchment areas to draw support from, which limits their potential support.

The Lost Sheep

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by the bolded part. Like the rest of it though.

The bolded bit was about tickets. Those games are always toughest to get tickets for but with the way the national side are playing and as its a world cup year they will be even harder to get. 1 of my 3 main sources for tickets is already closed off if I want to go to one of those games and im unlikely to get one from the other 2 as well

Beery Eyed wrote: »

There are lots of good suggestions here & it's something that needs to be discussed more & improved. The standard of players in the league is very high & the games are always hard fought, enjoyable affairs.

As someone who played & has been affiliated with a club all my life it's always enjoyable to go down to a match & support them. However, as some people have alluded to earlier in the thread, if you are not associated with a club already it isn't always a welcoming place unfortunately. They tend to be very welcoming for new players, but there is little to no emphasis on gaining new support.

One of the key things that the provinces have done so well to welcome new support is to move away from the old cliquey nature of rugby clubs. It doesn't really matter at all if it's your first time heading along, it's still an enjoyable time to go & watch a game & nobody cares if you're new to it.

I know ive been affiliated with a club my whole time and am probably the wrong person discussing this but I haven't seen that in most places but then again around a lot of the country and in some city clubs clubs are representation of a town/region which isn't so much the case in Dublin where there is a significant number of clubs which are old boy clubs of certain schools and that can very much affect how people get involved in such clubs if at all.
Yes the provinces have done that well but I haven't ever really seen any issue with a supposed cliquey nature of clubs... The role development officers have played at bringing the sport to the kids in local schools and then to the clubs and then parents get involved through underage system

Beery Eyed wrote: »

Another thing that was mentioned to me, by someone who moved over to Dublin & was a rugby fan, was that the teams are mostly representative of small groups & by their nature that makes them exclusive rather than inclusive. In one way that is a strength, but in terms of attracting newcomers to support the clubs it's a weakness.

For instance, in Dublin a lot of the teams are either connected to schools or universities, so unless you were associated with those groups why would you go & support them? Clontarf are probably one of the few that aren't, and they seem to have done well recently in appealing to new support in the local area there. They're the only AIL 1 club in north Dublin too.

Throughout the rest of the country more of the clubs are based around local areas, which is a bit better since at least in those cases you could appeal to people supporting their local team. However, many of these clubs have very small catchment areas to draw support from, which limits their potential support.

Fair points especially about in Dublin but would disagree about through the country clubs having small catchment areas. In the main they don't. Look at a lot of towns and the catchment area for a club is an entire town and parishes/area around that town.
Like of the senior rugby clubs in Dublin only Lansdowne, Bective, Clontarf(as you mention), Skerries and Seapoint aren't directly linked to a school/uni.

SaveOurLyric

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The support for the club game is an issue though and I don't see how you can say it isn't.
You haven't been to much or if you have a very small number of club AIL/J1 rugby if you think attendances have went up.

It isnt. The club game is about people playing a sport because they enjoy it (the game itself, the comraderie, the fitness, the competition, etc). Not how many spectators are watching them go about it. I go to no AIL/J1 games. I wouldnt go if I were given free tickets and the game was down the road.

You misunderstand my point. I would claim that attendances of spectators at rugby games are indeed up in the last 15 years - because people were presented with an attractive package by the professional era. I didnt say they are up for club games. The HC and Pro 12 provide much better entertainment for the spectator/fan than the old club system did. And so people attend those games. 20-30 high level games a year is plenty for even the pretty committed live fan. I assume support for club games themselves is down. And thats as it should be. The attractive talent is elsewhere and they dont deserve, nor should be looking for, attendances beyond those directly related to the players.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Talking about it being an amateur game and support not being relevant. :eek:

Being amateur means the stars are available elsewhere, so no need to watch a lower level of part-timers. And being their hobby rather than profession, then they play it for that reason. Not to attract ticket fees through the gates.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Not everyone will be brave enough/willing to spend €30+ on a pro12 ticket etc but is more likely spend a tenner on a club game, get a meal.

You are disproving yourself here. The reality is people are spending their 30 on a pro12 game and not the 10er on a club game. Or you wouldnt be saying low support for club games is a problem.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

We need to improve our systems, competitions. Get more social rugby.

I agree with this bit. But low grade social rugby is never going to attract support.

.ak

Just on the social rugby thing, it does support the senior teams imo. I've been to a fair few more AIL games than I would normally now that I play junior rugby. It's a mutual benefit, the more support the senior teams get the more paid players there are in the club and visa versa.

stephen_n

Realistically even in the glory days of the AIL, as a product it didn't have a broad fan base. It was always the club members who went to games, as opposed to the rugby fans who'd go to inter pros or internationals. Also the clubs were a lot bigger in those days, go back to the early 90's in Greystones we had 9 teams below senior, come cup time. So the overall membership of the club was more than double what it is now. Also at that stage the seniors had 3 Irish internationals, which is a hugely different standard to current teams. At that point with the product on offer, we'd hire a train for the away games in Limerick and Cork, now they wouldn't get enough fans at a home game to fill a train. For whatever reason and I'm not sure why, professionalism impacted very negatively on junior rugby, this diminished the fan base within the clubs who would actually watch AIL games and there in lies the problem, the clubs will never garner huge support outside of the club structure, so unless someone finds ways of re growing the junior game it's unlikely to get the AIL better support.

Tim Robbins

stephen_n wrote: »

Realistically even in the glory days of the AIL, as a product it didn't have a broad fan base. It was always the club members who went to games, as opposed to the rugby fans who'd go to inter pros or internationals. Also the clubs were a lot bigger in those days, go back to the early 90's in Greystones we had 9 teams below senior, come cup time. So the overall membership of the club was more than double what it is now. Also at that stage the seniors had 3 Irish internationals, which is a hugely different standard to current teams. At that point with the product on offer, we'd hire a train for the away games in Limerick and Cork, now they wouldn't get enough fans at a home game to fill a train. For whatever reason and I'm not sure why, professionalism impacted very negatively on junior rugby, this diminished the fan base within the clubs who would actually watch AIL games and there in lies the problem, the clubs will never garner huge support outside of the club structure, so unless someone finds ways of re growing the junior game it's unlikely to get the AIL better support.

Greystones is also a bit different in that it is a bit like a GAA club with a strong community feel to it.

Huge problem with Rugby clubs is that they don't really develop their players. 80% of them come from the schools. So all they need to do is to make sure they attract enough decent school players rather than develop their youths.

This creates a sense of pass through rather than lads who grow up going to senior matches wanting to play for them some day.

I have been involved with grass roots for both Rugby and GAA for very young kids (as I have a few) and the difference is staggering. I would love if some Rugby clubs took some ideas from GAA clubs in developing players to their full potential but it will never happen because the schools will always be miles ahead.

It is incredible to think that without doubt Blackrock school has been the strongest school in Ireland but they are nowhere near the strongest AIL side and never will be.

If you want a strong club game you need to be more like the GAA where there is a sense that every level is important from the 40 year olds to the 4 year olds.

stephen_n

Yeah Greystones is different in that now too, with something like 400 minis, they aren't just relying on the schools anymore. Clubs like Naas are the same I think and maybe that will be the way forward, we will see does it increase player retention then.

The Lost Sheep

.ak wrote: »

Just on the social rugby thing, it does support the senior teams imo. I've been to a fair few more AIL games than I would normally now that I play junior rugby. It's a mutual benefit, the more support the senior teams get the more paid players there are in the club and visa versa.

It does. If you have social rugby games on in a club on a Saturday around a senior game. Players will stay or be there for the senior game.

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

It isnt. The club game is about people playing a sport because they enjoy it (the game itself, the comraderie, the fitness, the competition, etc). Not how many spectators are watching them go about it. I go to no AIL/J1 games. I wouldnt go if I were given free tickets and the game was down the road.

The club game is about the spectators as well as they help create the ethos around the game and help support the club and the camaraderie etc is still relevant for supporters.

You misunderstand my point. I would claim that attendances of spectators at rugby games are indeed up in the last 15 years - because people were presented with an attractive package by the professional era. I didnt say they are up for club games. The HC and Pro 12 provide much better entertainment for the spectator/fan than the old club system did. And so people attend those games. 20-30 high level games a year is plenty for even the pretty committed live fan. I assume support for club games themselves is down. And thats as it should be. The attractive talent is elsewhere and they dont deserve, nor should be looking for, attendances beyond those directly related to the players.

The clubs should be looking for crowds beyond those directly related to players as how else can a club grow if you don't look beyond that small a number? Attendances are up the past 15 years simply because there is more matches and yes through a bit of success. The sport will fall to its knees without the club game and supporting it especially if the provinces go through a period going anything near what the welsh regions have for the past few years.
To say the clubs don't deserve or should be looking for people outside of those with a relation to the players is ridiculous. You invest in a club not a specific player

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Greystones is also a bit different in that it is a bit like a GAA club with a strong community feel to it.

Huge problem with Rugby clubs is that they don't really develop their players. 80% of them come from the schools. So all they need to do is to make sure they attract enough decent school players rather than develop their youths.

This creates a sense of pass through rather than lads who grow up going to senior matches wanting to play for them some day.

I have been involved with grass roots for both Rugby and GAA for very young kids (as I have a few) and the difference is staggering. I would love if some Rugby clubs took some ideas from GAA clubs in developing players to their full potential but it will never happen because the schools will always be miles ahead.

It is incredible to think that without doubt Blackrock school has been the strongest school in Ireland but they are nowhere near the strongest AIL side and never will be.

If you want a strong club game you need to be more like the GAA where there is a sense that every level is important from the 40 year olds to the 4 year olds.

Tim stop talking crap(bit in red). In most of the country rugby clubs develop the players that play for their senior/top club side. There's only a few areas where players solely play schools rugby for their teens and that's really just parts of Ulster and Dublin.

What do you want rugby clubs to take from GAA clubs? What would you propose the club game do to be more like the GAA?
The Blackrock club is in major debt, they have struggled to attract many players from the school and cant attract many top underage players.

The Lost Sheep

stephen_n wrote: »

Realistically even in the glory days of the AIL, as a product it didn't have a broad fan base. It was always the club members who went to games, as opposed to the rugby fans who'd go to inter pros or internationals. Also the clubs were a lot bigger in those days, go back to the early 90's in Greystones we had 9 teams below senior, come cup time. So the overall membership of the club was more than double what it is now. Also at that stage the seniors had 3 Irish internationals, which is a hugely different standard to current teams. At that point with the product on offer, we'd hire a train for the away games in Limerick and Cork, now they wouldn't get enough fans at a home game to fill a train. For whatever reason and I'm not sure why, professionalism impacted very negatively on junior rugby, this diminished the fan base within the clubs who would actually watch AIL games and there in lies the problem, the clubs will never garner huge support outside of the club structure, so unless someone finds ways of re growing the junior game it's unlikely to get the AIL better support.

Eh In the glory days of the AIL, the interpros got very very few going to games. The provinces only played 3 interpros a season until late in the 90s. The rugby fans were going to AIL games to a large degree as apart from internationals there was very little other rugby. Interpros were 3 games/province until 99.

The_Captain

In Dublin anyway, there's guys who played in school and the school team is what's important, not the local club. You leave school, you don't play SCT rugby anymore

Or you hit college and can't really be arsed to play for your club anymore. The insurance/membership costs will seriously impact your beer funds.
Maybe you'll play J4/J5 for the fun of the game, J3 if you can be bothered to put in time commitment

Rugby will always look crap compared to the numbers and sense of community in the GAA, but somewhere like St Marys will have comparable facilities and supporters as second tier football teams in Ireland.

justsomebloke

The problem for the AIL is that it is now for the most part disconnected from the Professional game and the professional game is where the interest is.

Rugby in this country is still a minority sport and we have a lot of transient supporters. Munster at the moment are the best case in point of this, due to the capacity of Thomond and that it has been slightly longer since they won the European cup. Thomond now rarely sells out, and that is with a lot of advertising and a top quality product to sell.

So the hard reality is that selling AIL as just a spectator sport is going to be very hard. The top players don't play in the AIL any more and the future players for the most part are brought through the academy systems.

With the amount of professional rugby now on through out the year, people will be drawn to that if they want to go see Rugby as they will see it as a better product, with better facilities and a better atmosphere.

Club Rugby is social rugby and that is where it's weakness is but also where it's potential strengths lies. Rugby as a sport has never been as popular as it has been now and there are a glut of people who are out there who would be interested in taking it up or getting involved with a local club but don't know how to.

THESE are the people club rugby needs to be targeting. The AIL can't compete with provincial Rugby as a 'paid' spectator sport and it is stupid for it to think they can, there just isn't the interest in Rugby in Ireland for them to be able to.

As you suggested you can't grow the crowds from just the relatives of the current squad, but if you grow the player base you automatically increase the potential spectator base and there is massive potential for clubs to grow their own numbers without much help from the IRFU. However if they are actually doing enough them selves is another thing.

I'm living in swords now 7-8 years and I don't think I've come across any advertising by either Swords or Malahide Rugby club. A few years ago I was going to take up Rugby and ended up going out to Tallaght to do it!!(after a few sessions I found out my body was to borked to do it, and didn't go back, but that is another story).

I was a PRIME candidate to help raise the numbers of my local club and in the ended up going miles out of my way as I had more information on it then my local club. This shouldn't be happening and it isn't the IRFU's fault.

Local clubs should be getting out there to promote them selves a hell of a lot more then they currently do and taking a leaf out of Tallaghts books and being a lot more proactive about getting people into the club, rather then as paying spectators. That is a sure fire way of swelling a club and you hav ethe numbers in the club you will end up will more bums in seats to watch the games

stephen_n

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Eh In the glory days of the AIL, the interpros got very very few going to games. The provinces only played 3 interpros a season until late in the 90s. The rugby fans were going to AIL games to a large degree as apart from internationals there was very little other rugby. Interpros were 3 games/province until 99.

Even then there were still people going to interpros and internationals, who never saw an AIL game, the clubs were supported predominantly from within as with most sports in this country, outside of soccer. How exactly do you think people who have no direct involvement with the clubs would be interested in the AIL? apart from some whimsical notion, that the IRFU should be promoting it to these notional fans.

The Lost Sheep

justsomebloke wrote: »

The problem for the AIL is that it is now for the most part disconnected from the Professional game and the professional game is where the interest is.

Rugby in this country is still a minority sport and we have a lot of transient supporters. Munster at the moment are the best case in point of this, due to the capacity of Thomond and that it has been slightly longer since they won the European cup. Thomond now rarely sells out, and that is with a lot of advertising and a top quality product to sell.

So the hard reality is that selling AIL as just a spectator sport is going to be very hard. The top players don't play in the AIL any more and the future players for the most part are brought through the academy systems.

With the amount of professional rugby now on through out the year, people will be drawn to that if they want to go see Rugby as they will see it as a better product, with better facilities and a better atmosphere.

Club Rugby is social rugby and that is where it's weakness is but also where it's potential strengths lies. Rugby as a sport has never been as popular as it has been now and there are a glut of people who are out there who would be interested in taking it up or getting involved with a local club but don't know how to.

THESE are the people club rugby needs to be targeting. The AIL can't compete with provincial Rugby as a 'paid' spectator sport and it is stupid for it to think they can, there just isn't the interest in Rugby in Ireland for them to be able to.

As you suggested you can't grow the crowds from just the relatives of the current squad, but if you grow the player base you automatically increase the potential spectator base and there is massive potential for clubs to grow their own numbers without much help from the IRFU. However if they are actually doing enough them selves is another thing.

I'm living in swords now 7-8 years and I don't think I've come across any advertising by either Swords or Malahide Rugby club. A few years ago I was going to take up Rugby and ended up going out to Tallaght to do it!!(after a few sessions I found out my body was to borked to do it, and didn't go back, but that is another story).

I was a PRIME candidate to help raise the numbers of my local club and in the ended up going miles out of my way as I had more information on it then my local club. This shouldn't be happening and it isn't the IRFU's fault.

Local clubs should be getting out there to promote them selves a hell of a lot more then they currently do and taking a leaf out of Tallaghts books and being a lot more proactive about getting people into the club, rather then as paying spectators. That is a sure fire way of swelling a club and you hav ethe numbers in the club you will end up will more bums in seats to watch the games

You can attract people who have got into the sport at the provincial professional level and get them into the clubs. Not everyone can get to Thomond etc every week but could get to more club games as theyre cheaper, closer(for a lot of people) and they can still see their province playing on tv in the local club/at home.
The players who go on to the top level due come through the academies but when theyre in the academies they are playing a lot of AIL especially considering their isn't enough B&I Cup level games for them not to play AIL.

stephen_n wrote: »

Even then there were still people going to interpros and internationals, who never saw an AIL game, the clubs were supported predominantly from within as with most sports in this country, outside of soccer. How exactly do you think people who have no direct involvement with the clubs would be interested in the AIL? apart from some whimsical notion, that the IRFU should be promoting it to these notional fans.

The provinces were nothing when the AIL was huge. The AIL was second to the internationals. You promote the league and show the links to the pro game and where players came from and link pplayers who played AIL recently and are now playing regularly in Pro12..

The_Captain wrote: »

In Dublin anyway, there's guys who played in school and the school team is what's important, not the local club. You leave school, you don't play SCT rugby anymore

Or you hit college and can't really be arsed to play for your club anymore. The insurance/membership costs will seriously impact your beer funds.
Maybe you'll play J4/J5 for the fun of the game, J3 if you can be bothered to put in time commitment

Rugby will always look crap compared to the numbers and sense of community in the GAA, but somewhere like St Marys will have comparable facilities and supporters as second tier football teams in Ireland.

You adapt the process with the schools. No teenager should go for 5/6 years of never once playing a game of rugby for a club side. You create links with clubs so that when young men enter third level they have links with a club or two and its easier to continue playing

Yeah_Right

Are there any leagues for over 35 year olds or under 85kg players? These are 2 competitions in NZ that are very popular among guys that want to keep playing at a social level. It keeps people involved in their local clubs which in turn means there more people watching the 1st team play and spending money in the bar/kitchen.

The Lost Sheep

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Are there any leagues for over 35 year olds or under 85kg players? These are 2 competitions in NZ that are very popular among guys that want to keep playing at a social level. It keeps people involved in their local clubs which in turn means there more people watching the 1st team play and spending money in the bar/kitchen.

Bective Rangers in Dublin created an over 35s league in Dublin 7/8 years ago but there isn't any regular competitions anywhere else
No weight category competitions here anywhere