Performance gains vs. losses across the disciplines

Kurt Godel

I've been running at least 30mins per day for the past 15 days, and have noticed a performance spike in my general running- form is better, runs are faster and easier across paces, belly fat has been lost and leg muscles have toned.

Great- except there's been a noticeable drop-off in my swimming times for the effort I put into them. Can't really explain this away by anything else except heavier legs and less midsection buoyancy. After only two weeks running, I'm probably overanalysing, or looking for correlations that aren't there- but to test this theory I was wondering if anyone else noticed a drop in standards in a disciple, when there is a rise in another?

tunney

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I've been running at least 30mins per day for the past 15 days, and have noticed a performance spike in my general running- form is better, runs are faster and easier across paces, belly fat has been lost and leg muscles have toned.

Great- except there's been a noticeable drop-off in my swimming times for the effort I put into them. Can't really explain this away by anything else except heavier legs and less midsection buoyancy. After only two weeks running, I'm probably overanalysing, or looking for correlations that aren't there- but to test this theory I was wondering if anyone else noticed a drop in standards in a disciple, when there is a rise in another?

Swimming will be the first thing affected on load.

However, spade a spade, 30 minutes a day is a logistical difficulty. It shouldn't be a fitness/leg issue.

peter kern

goal is to be fastest from a to b in a tri not in the pool and its fair to say you worry to much about your swimming ;-)

2 words poul buoy

sconhome

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I've been running at least 30mins per day for the past 15 days, and have noticed a performance spike in my general running- form is better, runs are faster and easier across paces, belly fat has been lost and leg muscles have toned.

It's great to see the benefits of it!!

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Great- except there's been a noticeable drop-off in my swimming times for the effort I put into them. Can't really explain this away by anything else except heavier legs and less midsection buoyancy. After only two weeks running, I'm probably overanalysing, or looking for correlations that aren't there- but to test this theory I was wondering if anyone else noticed a drop in standards in a disciple, when there is a rise in another?

I would have expected that to be a normal body reaction to increased training load.

You you use Training Peaks or another Training Load analyser? Not sure if GC does it. You would will find that the overall training load for these recent weeks is likely much higher than your standalone swimming weeks.

Don't need to tell you but that is the trick with tri-training, finding that balance between load, recovery and performance.

bryangiggsy

Kurt interesting topic.Getting the percentages right will play a big roll in performance imo. For years i have been doing 3 swims/3 bikes/3 runs a week....now im doing 4 bikes/4 runs and 2 swims. I hope to see an improvement with minimum drop in performance in the swim.

tunney

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I've been running at least 30mins per day for the past 15 days, and have noticed a performance spike in my general running- form is better, runs are faster and easier across paces, belly fat has been lost and leg muscles have toned.

Great- except there's been a noticeable drop-off in my swimming times for the effort I put into them. Can't really explain this away by anything else except heavier legs and less midsection buoyancy. After only two weeks running, I'm probably overanalysing, or looking for correlations that aren't there- but to test this theory I was wondering if anyone else noticed a drop in standards in a disciple, when there is a rise in another?

Another option. Your expectations in a test set that you may or may not have done recently were out of whack.

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Kurt interesting topic.Getting the percentages right will play a big roll in performance imo. For years i have been doing 3 swims/3 bikes/3 runs a week....now im doing 4 bikes/4 runs and 2 swims. I hope to see an improvement with minimum drop in performance in the swim.

Its amazing the number of people who will notice the connection between a lack of bike training and poor running in a tri but fail to see the connection between swim and bike/run

Chartsengrafs

tunney wrote: »

Its amazing the number of people who will notice the connection between a lack of bike training and poor running in a tri but fail to see the connection between swim and bike/run

I think that a poor swim ability/training can have less of a detrimental effect on the other two compared to the bike-run connection.
I would caveat that however by adding that the race distance is a relevant variable to be taken into account. One thing bluffing a 750m swim, quite another trying to get through an IM swim ill-prepared and trying to do a decent cycle and run.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Basster wrote: »

I think that a poor swim ability/training can have less of a detrimental effect on the other two compared to the bike-run connection.

Not for some:) bike to run has never been an issue, swim to bike though is another thing entirely.

peter kern

also intersitng to see that people only think in yearly cycles rather than looking a bit ahead .
sometimes what is not really the best now can be good in the future)

ps and as an aside well done bryan great change.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

peter kern wrote: »

also intersitng to see that people only think in yearly cycles rather than looking a bit ahead .
sometimes what is not really the best now can be good in the future

Not if there are underlying issues which are not connected to swim fitness.

peter kern

Savannah Short Grocer wrote: »

Not if there are underlying issues which are not connected to swim fitness.

i did not even think about swiming more in an holistice way ( and boy i hate this buzzword )

MojoMaker

I was gonna make the same comment - are you absolutely sure you did not approach the most recent test set just a wee bit tired from the run volume? Or are you consistently struggling to hold the same 100 interval pace, or finding the intervals much tougher at the same pace?

Kurt Godel

MojoMaker wrote: »

I was gonna make the same comment - are you absolutely sure you did not approach the most recent test set just a wee bit tired from the run volume? Or are you consistently struggling to hold the same 100 interval pace, or finding the intervals much tougher at the same pace?

No doubt thats the case- too small a sample anyways to make a call. I was just wondering if its usual for gains in one area to be accompanied by a (small) debt in another.

(Of course though, the overall focus is overall improvement from gun to tape)

MojoMaker

I found out the hard way about balancing load across 3 to make sure I never clashed a hard session within 24 hours of a swim set. Doesn't always work out with scheduling but that's my focus when planning and if I have to flex that rule it's always with a recovery/easy swim in mind. For me, the swim is the most obvious place that tiredness shows itself - I can usually push through a turbo session when tired or a tempo run (when not injured) but my swim always suffers if I arrive at the pool fatigued from a recent session of anything.

How I recognise this is not a dip in outright speed or a loss of form necessarily, it's always in a failure to hold regular interval sets.

Kurt Godel

MojoMaker wrote: »

For me, the swim is the most obvious place that tiredness shows itself - I can usually push through a turbo session when tired or a tempo run (when not injured) but my swim always suffers if I arrive at the pool fatigued from a recent session of anything.

How I recognise this is not a dip in outright speed or a loss of form necessarily, it's always in a failure to hold regular interval sets.

That's exactly whats been happening me, and I can recognise it as such now. Recent workload (more bikes, more runs) have translated into swim dipping a bit. No harm in December- the ratio from May onwards is what matters.

sconhome

Kurt Godel wrote: »

No doubt thats the case- too small a sample anyways to make a call. I was just wondering if its usual for gains in one area to be accompanied by a (small) debt in another.

(Of course though, the overall focus is overall improvement from gun to tape)

Looking for the synergy across all the disciplines it is natural to see dips when compared with the individual disciplines.

peter kern

Kurt Godel wrote: »

No doubt thats the case- too small a sample anyways to make a call. I was just wondering if its usual for gains in one area to be accompanied by a (small) debt in another.

yes and no it depends
with some people it slowes down other improvemts than getting slower
but run and swim are false friends ( and its good that you as a swim freak start to notice that as it will likely change your mind how you see swimming as you will see that bellow the waist whats good for one is not always so good for the other
its good for swim coaches to think about that ( no i dodnt think this means less swiming as swiming itslef is fantastic to build and engine it just means different swimmng )

what happens to you dosnt suprise me ie you are a big fellow and likely develop more flaxible ankles since you focus on swim and dont run much . know you start to train more like a triathlete and run more you get tighter and that makes it harder to kick for you
frankly speaking i do not think its a good idea for somebody like you to run every day as your weight beats your body up
i never undertand this 100 runs in 100 day challenge for trithletes people should try to get the best not just run for the sake of it ( iam talking aobut triatheltes not runners ) anyway each to their own and it keep one forum member happy .

MojoMaker

Your masters session are also tougher than the normal Tri swim off-season training sessions don't forget KG. Add the deck work to your run volume and it's easy to see where the fatigue is coming from. If this was dialled back to say 90% you might be about to make a big leap forward in the pool, as odd as that sounds.

I swim each week with a consistent sub 6:00 swimmer and he has just returned from 7 days in the US eating and drinking and no training at all and he just posted a 400 pb last night. The only logic I can draw from it is the enhanced rest has allowed his body to process the previous month's training and adapt.

Kurt Godel

Some good food for thought in those reply's, thanks! Peter, you're right about weight and running volume (injury risk)- at the first sign of niggles I will stop the streak. Mojomaker, you're spot on about looking at times during a heavy volume block, versus what can be done after a bit of rest.

sconhome

peter kern wrote: »

i never undertand this 100 runs in 100 day challenge for trithletes people should try to get the best not just run for the sake of it ( iam talking aobut triatheltes not runners ) anyway each to their own and it keep one forum member happy .

Funny, I would have thought youd get the point Peter. Surely it is better to have mentally strong triathletes than ones who quit when it gets tough?

If you read the runstreak thread you would see it is 30mins or 5km. That is not taxing on the body and should always be considered a recovery workout.

People make what they want from these things. And its not about making me happy. Its about being happy in yourself.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

Kurt Godel wrote: »

No doubt thats the case- too small a sample anyways to make a call. I was just wondering if its usual for gains in one area to be accompanied by a (small) debt in another.

yes and no it depends
with some people it slowes down other improvemts than getting slower
but run and swim are false friends ( and its good that you as a swim freak start to notice that as it will likely change your mind how you see swimming as you will see that bellow the waist whats good for one is not always so good for the other
its good for swim coaches to think about that ( no i dodnt think this means less swiming as swiming itslef is fantastic to build and engine it just means different swimmng )

what happens to you dosnt suprise me ie you are a big fellow and likely develop more flaxible ankles since you focus on swim and dont run much . know you start to train more like a triathlete and run more you get tighter and that makes it harder to kick for you
frankly speaking i do not think its a good idea for somebody like you to run every day as your weight beats your body up
i never undertand this 100 runs in 100 day challenge for trithletes people should try to get the best not just run for the sake of it ( iam talking aobut triatheltes not runners ) anyway each to their own and it keep one forum member happy .

Devils advocate - train your strengths, race your weaknesses. Kurt's run is weak. What improves running economy - repetition and consistency. Not condoning the run streak for everyone, the run streak is everyone's own choice. I never forced it on anyway.

I think 100 runs for a 100 days is a bad idea but lets be honest most triathletes delude themselves into thinking they run enough <50km a week and you're just fúcking about.

You mention flexible ankles being great for swimming. thats true. You neglect to mention that flexible ankles are very bad for running - speed and injury wise.

I do accept there is less money for those so inclined in focusing on the run side of training than the swim.

I'm assuming that I am the "one forum member" you are talking about and thats fine. I have never hid the fact that I needed something like that to get back my good habits and consistency. And hey it worked. But as I said I forced no one to do it and at the end of the day I am losing weight, getting fitter and faster.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

AKW wrote: »

Funny, I would have thought youd get the point Peter. Surely it is better to have mentally strong triathletes than ones who quit when it gets tough?

If you read the runstreak thread you would see it is 30mins or 5km. That is not taxing on the body and should always be considered a recovery workout.

People make what they want from these things. And its not about making me happy. Its about being happy in yourself.

I think the run streak is a good thing for some people, enforces a routine and gets people out the door. On the bolded bit though, if you have someone who comes from a low volume/frequency run background even 30mins running a day for 30 days will take its toll on the legs and body.
You just need to read some of the training logs and you can see it impacting on some of their bike and swim sessions.

tunney

Savannah Short Grocer wrote: »

I think the run streak is a good thing for some people, enforces a routine and gets people out the door. On the bolded bit though, if you have someone who comes from a low volume/frequency run background even 30mins running a day for 30 days will take its toll on the legs and body.
You just need to read some of the training logs and you can see it impacting on some of their bike and swim sessions.

Then perhaps it can bring an element of realism to people and the level of work they have historically been doing.

On the flip side I can point to one member whose recent 10x200m test set was as good as he ever did and he is doing the streak as well, his biking has also improved over the course of the streak.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

tunney wrote: »

Then perhaps it can bring an element of realism to people and the level of work they have historically been doing.

Could not agree more, i have been vocal before that some of the run mileage on the SBR thread is very low, take the top 10 out of it and people are averaging less than 30km a week.

tunney wrote: »

On the flip side I can point to one member whose recent 10x200m test set was as good as he ever did and he is doing the streak as well, his biking has also improved over the course of the streak.

More the exception i would have thought or else that person has had previous run volume/frequency in the past?

tunney

Savannah Short Grocer wrote: »

More the exception i would have thought or else that person has had previous run volume/frequency in the past?

Nope. Huge jump for this person

Kurt Godel

It's only fair to point out in this context, that the Masters sessions and the Run Streak were imposed by me on the coach, not the other way around (and I recognise thats hardly ideal). I've been told to ditch the streak at the first sign of stress, but for the moment its producing benefits, so far so good.

peter kern

i would totally agee with that but i very much doubt ruuning every day is even close to be the best way to improve for the op
for another person it could be good but for kurt it would be way better to mix the cycle and run up .

as i said whats good for running is not good for swiming and vica versa

I think 100 runs for a 100 days is a bad idea but lets be honest most triathletes delude themselves into thinking they run enough <50km a week and you're just fúcking about.

You mention flexible ankles being great for swimming. thats true. You neglect to mention that flexible ankles are very bad for running - speed and injury wise.

I do accept there is less money for those so inclined in focusing on the run side of training than the swim.

I'm assuming that I am the "one forum member" you are talking about and thats fine. I have never hid the fact that I needed something like that to get back my good habits and consistency. And hey it worked. But as I said I forced no one to do it and at the end of the day I am losing weight, getting fitter and faster.[/QUOTE]

peter kern

AKW wrote: »

Funny, I would have thought youd get the point Peter. Surely it is better to have mentally strong triathletes than ones who quit when it gets tough?

If you read the runstreak thread you would see it is 30mins or 5km. That is not taxing on the body and should always be considered a recovery workout.

People make what they want from these things. And its not about making me happy. Its about being happy in yourself.

is you full time job being a physiothereapist treating injuries ?

sconhome

peter kern wrote: »

is you full time job being a physiothereapist treating injuries ?

What in Christ's name has that got to do with anything?

peter kern

AKW wrote: »

What in Christ's name has that got to do with anything?

well you think i talked about you ...so i asked if you are treating run injuries to make sure it wasnt you i talked about

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

is you full time job being a physiothereapist treating injuries ?

AKW wrote: »

What in Christ's name has that got to do with anything?

AKWs full time job is selling sporting equipment - with a focus on running. One would imagine this is why his posts tend to be more running related.

Peter Kerns is coaching people - with a focus on swimming. One would imagine this is why his posts tend to be more swimming related.

BTH

And Tunney has four kids, that why he always seems to be in a bad mood

In fairness you've been good of late. Training regularly suits you.

tunney

BTH wrote: »

And Tunney has four kids, that why he always seems to be in a bad mood

In fairness you've been good of late. Training regularly suits you.

Only have three kids, and zero gingers.

Mental note : find trolling cap

sconhome

BTH wrote: »

And Tunney has four kids, that why he always seems to be in a bad mood
.

Unless you're putting one up for adoption at the last count just 3

pgibbo

Strangely enough I made the connection when Peter asked if being a physio was your job. The reality is physios have never been busier and a lot of that is down to challenges like 100 runs in 100 days. People aren't in tune with their bodies and tend to do too much too soon - be it peer pressure or total ignorance. Hence running can get a bad rep.

BTH

My bad, he just talks about them so much it feels like there must be loads of em.

mossym

BTH wrote: »

My bad, he just talks about them so much it feels like there must be loads of em.

isn't your real job something to do with counting for a living?

tunney

pgibbo wrote: »

Strangely enough I made the connection when Peter asked if being a physio was your job. The reality is physios have never been busier and a lot of that is down to challenges like 100 runs in 100 days. People aren't in tune with their bodies and tend to do too much too soon - be it peer pressure or total ignorance. Hence running can get a bad rep.

Elephant in the room.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057223256

How many of these people are "in tune with their bodies". Those that savaged me, and other the most, are the ones the least in tune with their bodies. Those the least athletic and those the most likely to get injured.

Name | Comment
AKW | Regular runner, done streaks before. Low risk.
Mloc123 | Now doing ultras, however was always likely to be gone in week one. Low Risk
Bambaata | Fairly savage athlete, pretty sure he could do much more a day and be fine. Low risk
Mossym | Based on his blog discussed at length about doing and there seems to have been an underlying reason to do it. Closely monitored it seems. Low risk
Tunney | Fat pr1ck who needs to lose weight. Unlikely to complete it if hangovers too bad. Low risk
Ruu | Afraid I am not sure. ??? Risk
Shotgunmcos | Experience athlete. In tune with himself. Low risk
pgibbo | Experienced athlete. Usually runs alot. Natural runner with good form. Low risk
Shedite27 | Afraid I am not sure. ??
zico10 | If arsed would have no problem. Zero risk
stampydmonkey | Afraid I am not sure. ??
Señor Fancy Pants | Afraid I am not sure. ??
Dory Dory | Its dory, she is doing miles anyways. Low risk
EC1000 | Afraid I am not sure. ??
johnk123 | Afraid I am not sure. ??
Kurt Godel | Wanted to do it. Closely monitored. Will learn alot about himself during this
MalDoc | Afraid I am not sure. ??
TheLostSheep | Afraid I am not sure. ??
Worn Out | Afraid I am not sure. ??



Now the ones I don't know could all be high risk. I don't know. But for most the risk is negligible or at worst informed with a risk/reward that makes it worth while.

Plus this is not 100 runs in 100 days. Its 31 runs at a period when most do not train and over eat and drink too much. Risk/rewards.......

BTH

mossym wrote: »

isn't your real job something to do with counting for a living?

Eh, eh, I'll be leaving that off the CV anyway.

pgibbo

I hear you Dave. Personally I wasn't talking about the people on the December run streak but generalising.

MojoMaker

Kurt, I'll be surprised if you don't post a strong sub-6:00 400 time early in January once the run streak has concluded and you actually take a few days off and I'll be watching for the post that tells us about your leap forward in the pool, followed shortly by your new 5K run pb. You're gearing up for a great start to the new year - stay injury-free!

Kurt Godel

MojoMaker wrote: »

Kurt, I'll be surprised if you don't post a strong sub-6:00 400 time early in January once the run streak has concluded and you actually take a few days off and I'll be watching for the post that tells us about your leap forward in the pool, followed shortly by your new 5K run pb. You're gearing up for a great start to the new year - stay injury-free!

In the context of my original query, I'd expect that to be the case, and I'd be more than happy with that as a result. Training in December might see me post a slight sub 6 400m (against Novembers 6:00 even), but should see a minute or two come off Novembers 5k run time. I suspect the running legs have slightly hampered swim progress in the immediate term, but overall improvement across both should be holistic as Peter says (holism=greater than the sum of the parts).