Fingal / North Dublin Transport Study

hardy_buck

lxflyer wrote: »

Could DART hours not be extended?

Good luck running that by the unions!

AngryLips

Zebra3 wrote: »

But nobody in their right mind can see this as any sort of answer to Dublin's PT deficit. If it happens, it'll be a disaster for Dublin.

How is expanding the Luas network a disaster for Dublin? The Luas is hugely successful and it needs to be expanded further. Yes of course it is not going to solve every possible problem under every projection scenario but what do you think the Goverment is going to do when those future problems present themselves? There is not finality in Luas, no one is going to say 'that's it, we're done solving Dublin's public transport needs'.

hardy_buck

AngryLips wrote: »

How is expanding the Luas network a disaster for Dublin? The Luas is hugely successful and it needs to be expanded further. Yes of course it is not going to solve every possible problem under every projection scenario but what do you think the Goverment is going to do when those future problems present themselves? There is not finality in Luas, no one is going to say 'that's it, we're done solving Dublin's public transport needs'.

The problem is that while the LUAS can be a effective transport solution such as the green line, it is being viewed as a panacea, the solutions to ALL of Dublins problems by politicians. At grade running through the city centre will as a rule be hamstrung by frequency due to traffic etc.

In this case it just simply can't be argued that this LUAS fudge is the superior solution to MN.

I also think the issue a lot of posters here have is that the government will build this LUAS to the airport and that will be that for transport in North Dublin for the next 40 years. This is a very real fear considering the track record our politicians have regarding transport and infrastructure.

LXFlyer

hardy_buck wrote: »

Good luck running that by the unions!

OK so you are suggesting we look at everything on the basis of the way things stand now?


Operating patterns can and will change - DART will be every 10 minutes between Howth Junction and Bray from early next year.

Cravens

The problem in my mind with the LUAS option is that the airport/Swords extension would not be great in the execution. Let's think about it, you might end up with Broombridge being to the Green Line what Connolly is to the Red Line, somewhere that will be built to at great expense and then tragically underserved once the Swords Line opens. Add to that the potential for the complexity of actually even trying to factor in a token service to Broombridge while maintaining decent service towards Swords, and to my mind it makes the LUAS option seem too much like it'd be tricky to implement in such a way to satisfy the Northern Corridor residents, without making the residents of Broombridge and commuters coming from West Dublin feel like they're being put at any great disadvantage.

Therefore I would advocate the implementation of Metro North, as it not only negates the potential problems of how to serve two different communities in such a way as to leave neither one feeling as if they are being ignored, but also because it can offer capacity up the Northern Corridor in such a way that LUAS can't (without causing hideous congestion in O'Connell Street and other areas where road and rail will have to fight for space). Also, if you consider that it goes without saying, that there'll be tunnelling under Glasnevin and Ballymun for the LUAS line anyhow, you may as well have the Metro.

But still, we should count our blessings, the LUAS would still be preferable to having that god awful BRT.

hardy_buck

lxflyer wrote: »

OK so you are suggesting we look at everything on the basis of the way things stand now?


Operating patterns can and will change - DART will be every 10 minutes between Howth Junction and Bray from early next year.

No, I say why don't we pick the easier and superior option?

That doesn't mean that trains are running later...
One look at Dublin bus or London tube drivers in fact will show you how much of a headache trying to get a simple change like extending hours in RMT's case can be.

LXFlyer

hardy_buck wrote: »

No, I say why don't we pick the easier and superior option?

That doesn't mean that trains are running later...
One look at Dublin bus or London tube drivers in fact will show you how much of a headache trying to get a simple change like extending hours in RMT's case can be.

Well I think sometimes you have to address these changes - you can't just maintain the status quo. Rosters can and do change. Frankly that's not a reason to discount such a proposal.

Dublin Bus already have full agreement with their unions to operate 24 hour bus services. No issue there.

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

Could DART hours not be extended?

It's it costed into the project? Of course anything could happen but invariably, it doesn't.

In any case, a large number of shifts start in the airport around 4am and finish after midnight. I can't see dart operating hours changing enough to support that (probably rightly so). If people can't get the train both to and from the airport for work, they'll drive.

crushproof

Zebra3 wrote: »

Of course, but this Luas extension is a piecemeal joke that takes people on a not so magical mystery tour to get to the airport and as pointed out above will be used to kill off any future debate about MN.

Not one other city around Europe would even consider this. It's a shambles and it's what happens when we have political interference as this article shows.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/extra-trains-costing-20000-per-day-put-on-ministers-lossmaking-route-26825930.html

Edinburgh did. Surprise surprise the Airport bus is faster. I know Ediburgh and Dublin airports are incomparable but the tram receives a fraction of the usage the bus does.
From a travellers perspective it's all down to journey time. The bus link through the Port Tunnel is always going to beat a LUAS to the city centre.

It's infuriating that we have to put up with these ridiculous decisions that make absoutely no sense whatsoever. Do they have a clue at all?

MJohnston

crushproof wrote: »

The bus link through the Port Tunnel is always going to beat a LUAS to the city centre.

Is anything going to beat the Airbus though? I can't see it, unless we have some unnecessary Heathrow Express type service. The DPT and the fact that any other airport transport will have to make intermediate stops means 'speed' is never really going to be a factor for approving any additional infrastructure.

cgcsb

MJohnston wrote: »

Is anything going to beat the Airbus though? I can't see it, unless we have some unnecessary Heathrow Express type service. The DPT and the fact that any other airport transport will have to make intermediate stops means 'speed' is never really going to be a factor for approving any additional infrastructure.

Metro North would provide an Airport-City Centre time around 18 minutes. Wiping the floor with all bus services, and providing frequency as high as every 2 minutes if required, securing the future growth of Swords and Dublin Airport for at least half a century or more.

Idbatterim

this whole debacle is just so ridiculous, its an absolute disgrace! Can luas be appealed if it is given the go ahead? on a not fit for purpose basis...

hardy_buck

MJohnston wrote: »

Is anything going to beat the Airbus though? I can't see it, unless we have some unnecessary Heathrow Express type service. The DPT and the fact that any other airport transport will have to make intermediate stops means 'speed' is never really going to be a factor for approving any additional infrastructure.

A competetively priced, frequent service that is availible from SSG (and swords along with everywhere along the North Dublin corridor) that doesn't have to worry about traffic or delays certainly could.

Currently Aircoach is only hourly from certain stops and €6-7 each way, MN with at worst 10 minute frequency could easily fill the role.

Ren2k7

lxflyer wrote: »

The DART spur would be served by normal DART services, running non-stop to Clongriffin from the Airport and then serving all stations. Therefore it would fall into existing paths - they wouldn't be additional services so this argument that they would cause additional pressure is false.

You might see some off-peak Howth branch services becoming a shuttle service to facilitate the airport spur. Remember though that the base DART frequency is already being increased to every 10 minutes next year.

You don't see why existing DART services would be negatively affected by an airport spur at Clongriffin?

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't disagree that MN and DART Underground are ideal, and indeed I'd prefer to see the DART spur as part of the DART Underground proposal.

This is what Irish Rail is pushing for actually. They want to be able to run intercity and commuter services to the airport via DART-U. Of course someone should probably tell them it would be impossible to run diesel trains through what is supposed to be an urban subway. :rolleyes:

Ren2k7

MJohnston wrote: »

Is anything going to beat the Airbus though?

Yeah, Metro North; a shovel ready project that has been costed and proven to be the most reliable option of all the NTA/Aecom proposals. MN will pay for itself several times over in terms of ridership and economic benefits to the city and state.

FG once again putting short term financial gain ahead of long term benefits; just like they did back in the 90's when opting for the Luas over a fully fledged Metro. *slow clap for the cheapskates*

cgcsb

Ren2k7 wrote: »

This is what Irish Rail is pushing for actually. They want to be able to run intercity and commuter services to the airport via DART-U. Of course someone should probably tell them it would be impossible to run diesel trains through what is supposed to be an urban subway. :rolleyes:

Irish Rail want to electrify the Dublin-Belfast,Cork and Galway lines when it comes time to replace the current locos.

Ren2k7

cgcsb wrote: »

Irish Rail want to electrify the Dublin-Belfast,Cork and Galway lines when it comes time to replace the current locos.

Yeah but that won't happen until 2030 at the earliest while DART-U was scheduled for to be completed over the course of 6 years. So if approval is given this year and construction started next year, with completion in 2022 that would still leave quite a gap of 8 years until IR could begin intercity services via the Interconnector to the airport.

In fact such a move is illogical considering Cork has a perfectly good airport which state agencies should be promoting for Munster instead of offering direct connections between the city and Dublin Airport. Cork business and civic leaders must have been fuming when they heard of IR's plans.

Carawaystick

Article about BRT in Brazil
http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/may/26/curitiba-brazil-brt-transport-revolution-history-cities-50-buildings

monument

Carawaystick wrote: »

Article about BRT in Brazil
http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/may/26/curitiba-brazil-brt-transport-revolution-history-cities-50-buildings

Dublin's version of "BRT" isn't close to that, it's more like a light version of European BRT.

cgcsb

monument wrote: »

Dublin's version of "BRT" isn't close to that, it's more like a light version of European BRT.

...It's a bendy bus on existing QBCs with some improvement to stops, some bus bays etc.

SantryRed

Surely someone will look at the proposal of the extension from Cabra and see just how stupid of an idea it is? Honestly, it's just so far out of the way it's unreal.

Swords is a massive town in it's own right, surely offering a service (which also serves the airport), which can get to town in 20 mins, is the way to go. The travel time from from Swords via Cabra to the city centre would be way too long. Another thing people aren't considering with this proposal is people from Swords actually getting to the luas stop, as most people in Swords would have a DB service going by their house, which can have them in the city centre in around an hour or so.

Also, the widening of the roads outside of St. Pat's has finally been completed, and I wonder what effect this is have on traffic as a whole along that road. The buses are currently zipping in and out of town atm, but obviously the real test will be when the schools are back.

It's just hugely frustrating to watch such short sighted views. It's ridiculous.

Idbatterim

you know what infuriates me, the fact we are even having this "debate"! years and years and years, of waffle from them, bloody well paid "planners" politicians who only care about how it will benefit them in the immediate short term...

Its laughable at all these reports, like its actually to identify the best option, its simply to kick the can down the road and ultimately probably shaft Dublin with the cheapest thing they can get away with. A lot of roles in the RPA and different authorities have to be justified I suppose :rolleyes:

There have been multiple reports, there is only one option Metro North. If they dont want to or cant build it now for whatever reason (political will mostly), fine! But dont screw Dublin over again, with yet another mickey mouse solution. We have lived for decades with this crap, the city can go a few more years without one, if it means we eventually will get one...

An airport that will likely handle 35,000,000 or so when the luas or MN eventually gets out there & luas is even being considered? MN or heavy rail connecting to the northern line, via the Airport and Swords are the only credible options... Is there any vision for this city?!

cgcsb

To be fair the various reports have consistently come back the same for 40 years, i.e. DARTu and Metro N in some guise is the only solution. The politicians keep seeking a different, cheaper answer, but are not getting it. The RPA report on luas to swords will be fudge full of phrases like 'may be sufficient'. And that'll be good enough.

Idbatterim

To be fair the various reports have consistently come back the same for 40 years, i.e. DARTu and Metro N in some guise is the only solution. The politicians keep seeking a different, cheaper answer, but are not getting it. The RPA report on luas to swords will be fudge full of phrases like 'may be sufficient'. And that'll be good enough.

thats what is really p**sing me off now. That they are trying to snake through this botch job, as we are just coming out of the recession. Wait until the dark wet winter nights when the city grinds to a halt. I think it would be better to make a decision then, than in the middle of the summer, when our roads are relatively quiet...

Schadenfreudia

SantryRed wrote: »

Surely someone will look at the proposal of the extension from Cabra and see just how stupid of an idea it is? Honestly, it's just so far out of the way it's unreal.

If you look at the end of the Red and Green line extensions they are almost in the countryside, yet at peak hours they are filled up almost at the first station!

The mind boggles at the idea that a Luas can handle Swords and the Airport and then clatter along the city streets through to Ranelagh with any comfort or effectiveness.

Or when FG make their Grand Announcement will they say:

"we've opted to extend the Luas from Cabra to Swords via the Airport.

To service the Airport ('cos that isn't what the Luas is about is about atall atall), we will simultaneously be building Metro North"

And pigs will fly....:rolleyes:

Ren2k7

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

If you look at the end of the Red and Green line extensions they are almost in the countryside, yet at peak hours they are filled up almost at the first station!

The mind boggles at the idea that a Luas can handle Swords and the Airport and then clatter along the city streets through to Ranelagh with any comfort or effectiveness.

Or when FG make their Grand Announcement will they say:

"we've opted to extend the Luas from Cabra to Swords via the Airport.

To service the Airport ('cos that isn't what the Luas is about is about atall atall), we will simultaneously be building Metro North"

And pigs will fly....:rolleyes:

What really gets me is how FG will smugly insist they are providing the necessary investment in Dublin and critics of the govt decision are begrudgers. FG gave us the underspecced, overhyped, unlinked Luas to begin with so it's not surprising we've come full circle with MORE bloody trams! And STILL Bluebots will defend their party!

AngryLips

The thing is that Swords is so far out that it should be served by suburban services, Dublin Airport should be served by a dedicated express service or something with only very limited intermediate stops where there exists significant interchange opportunities, while everything south of Dublin Airport within the continuous built up area could benefit best from Luas. Whatever the solution for Fingal, it's going to be abysmal for at least one of these three things.

Grandeeod

Ren2k7 wrote: »

What really gets me is how FG will smugly insist they are providing the necessary investment in Dublin and critics of the govt decision are begrudgers. FG gave us the underspecced, overhyped, unlinked Luas to begin with so it's not surprising we've come full circle with MORE bloody trams! And STILL Bluebots will defend their party!

FF had their dirty hands in that aswell. No political party in Ireland is immune to the woeful decisions made over the years. It's cyclical. What one party lead Government does, a different party lead Government tends to undo. Therein lies the root of the problem.

40 odd years. Don't forget that.

Ren2k7

Grandeeod wrote: »

FF had their dirty hands in that aswell. No political party in Ireland is immune to the woeful decisions made over the years. It's cyclical. What one party lead Government does, a different party lead Government tends to undo. Therein lies the root of the problem.

40 odd years. Don't forget that.

I accept that and FF are just as disastrous for Ireland as FG have been. Though I do concede that we probably wouldn't have gotten the wide spanning inter-urban network had FG been in power during the "boom" given the "one for everybody in the audience" mentality FF employs.

Leo is on record as stating he believes the motorway network was built to too high a standard and that a few bypasses and dual carriageway probably would have sufficed. Such moronic thinking is straight from the Frank McDonald school of "thought" that argues small populated counties don't need motorways. But then the interurban network wasn't built for these small rural backwaters (even if they benefited), the motorways were to allow quick and speedy connectivity between Ireland's urban centres. Borris-In-Ossory and Ballinasloe gaining fast connections to Dublin was merely a bonus.

So credit where credit is due; FF may be c***s but at least they gave us some top class roads, even if in countries with similar sized population densities wouldn't have justified such a massive road building plan.

Grandeeod

Ren2k7 wrote: »

I accept that and FF are just as disastrous for Ireland as FG have been. Though I do concede that we probably wouldn't have gotten the wide spanning inter-urban network had FG been in power during the "boom" given the "one for everybody in the audience" mentality FF employs.

Leo is on record as stating he believes the motorway network was built to too high a standard and that a few bypasses and dual carriageway probably would have sufficed. Such moronic thinking is straight from the Frank McDonald school of "thought" that argues small populated counties don't need motorways. But then the interurban network wasn't built for these small rural backwaters (even if they benefited), the motorways were to allow quick and speedy connectivity between Ireland's urban centres. Borris-In-Ossory and Ballinasloe gaining fast connections to Dublin was merely a bonus.

So credit where credit is due; FF may be c***s but at least they gave us some top class roads, even if in countries with similar sized population densities wouldn't have justified such a massive road building plan.

I was speaking in terms of rail based projects in response to you, but I would agree with you 100% in relation to the the inter urban motorways. Thank **** the were delivered eventually. They make Ireland a really smaller place. I absolutely accept that FF in Government were responsible for them. In fact its probably one of the only transport decisions they made that was sensible.

But in relation to anything on rails/public transport, all political parties have a phobia. I always put it down to the rural make up of our parliament that grew up with car dependency. They don't understand public transport as their predecessors created CIE at a time when rural railways were in demise and the car (and to a lessor extent the bus) was in the ascendancy.