.223 subsonic ammo

defib

Hi guys

Can you buy .223 subsonic ammo in Ireland?

I know it's available in the USA.

Does anyone know

Thanks

Cass

Never seen it. The need for it would be so small i cannot see anyone really wanting it. The drops of any round would be huge, even over short distances. For example:

• 55 gr at 3,250 fps with a 100 yard zero would drop approx 2" at 200 yards.
• 55 gr at 1,050 fps with a 100 yard zero would drop approx 34" at 200 yards.

The top one would be representative of a normal 55 gr round in .223. The bottom example would be representative of the same round only subsonic. While the figures are only an example and real world applications may prove slightly better the fact is the performance would be worse than a .22lr at the same distances.

The only benefit would be reduced sound/report if using a suppressor.

Gormley85

You can get an adapter that lets you fire .22lrs from your .223

Heres one company that does them...

mcace.com/adapters.htm

As said above if you are going to buying a subsonic 223 then you may aswell just have done with it and fire the 22lrs as it would be far cheaper.

juice1304

Gormley85 wrote: »

You can get an adapter that lets you fire .22lrs from your .223

Heres one company that does them...

mcace.com/adapters.htm

As said above if you are going to buying a subsonic 223 then you may aswell just have done with it and fire the 22lrs as it would be far cheaper.

That would be illegal without a licence for the adapter and it wouldn't be very good .

Gormley85

juice1304 wrote: »

That would be illegal without a licence for the adapter and it wouldn't be very good .

Yeh and his 223 rifle would be illegal without a licence. What point are you trying to make?

Cass

No need for the smart comments and incivility. If you don't understand then ask.

Juice was pointing out that with only a .223 license he cannot legally hold any other rifle ammunition without a valid license. So adapters for different calibers, other than being less than useless, are illegal to own without multiple licenses. So if you want to pay €80 to use .22lr in a .223 then get the license and off you go. However good luck trying to explain that one to your FO.

Gormley85

Cass wrote: »

Juice was pointing out that with only a .223 license he cannot legally hold any other rifle ammunition without a valid license. So adapters for different calibers, other than being less than useless, are illegal to own without multiple licenses. So if you want to pay €80 to use .22lr in a .223 then get the license and off you go. However good luck trying to explain that one to your FO.

Im not trying to be smart. I just dont see why there is such hate towards them. Both yourself and himself have mentioned that they are crap (without explaining why you think so) and are making it sound as if they cant be got.

I can tell you from experience that they can be got and that they actually arent bad if you want to keep it within 100 meters.

rsole1

Gormley85 wrote: »

Im not trying to be smart. I just dont see why there is such hate towards them. Both yourself and himself have mentioned that they are crap (without explaining why you think so) and are making it sound as if they cant be got.

I can tell you from experience that they can be got and that they actually arent bad if you want to keep it within 100 meters.

I have a 22lr adapter which I use from a 12 bore, it keyholes after about 10 yards even with subsonics. It is ok for despatching at close range with those 22lr rat shot yokes. Yes I hold the two relevant licences, 12 bore and 22lr.

Cass

Gormley85 wrote: »

Im not trying to be smart. I just dont see why there is such hate towards them.

Your word choice comes across as aggressive, confrontational and dismissive. Thw written word looses context so like now if you are unsure, ask.

Both yourself and himself have mentioned that they are crap (without explaining why you think so) and are making it sound as if they cant be got.

I'll explain my stand point.

Firstly, such adapters are not readily available here. I've never seen them in any dealers, although that does not mean they are not out there. However given the licensing issues in Ireland that does not exist elsewhere you need a license for a .22lr in order to have these. That means a new application (FCA1 and the works), trying to explain to a Firearms Officer what exactly they are, then paying €80 for the license. All this before you buy a single bullet.

Secondly, you have a 20gr bullet doing subsonic speeds producing approx. 40 ft/lb at the muzzle and less than 25 at 100 yards. Nowhere near good enough, imo, for foxes or anything other than very small varmint shooting. IOW you have a .22lr, not a .223. A subsonic .223 will still produce in excess of 130 ft/lb at the muzzle and 110 or so at 100 yards. 4 - 5 times that of a .22lr.

Lastly, performance. Just how accurate are they are any sort of distance? Not even 100 yards, how about 80, 60, 40 yards. I'm not talking target accuracy, just the ability to hit what you aim at? You have a short bullet designed to be shot in a 1:16 twist or so barrel being fired out of a 1:12 to 1:9 twist barrel. The OAL and wrong twist rate may cause keyholing and/or complete misses. Result, miss of worse again improper strike on your target and wounded animals running around/off. Might seem overly pedantic, but you need to consider all possibilities.

I can tell you from experience that they can be got and that they actually arent bad if you want to keep it within 100 meters.

For the above reasons about availability here (anything else requires importing), price, licensing, etc. why bother? You have spent all the money and time to buy and license a .223 to turn it into a .22lr. Why not just buy a .22lr. They can be gotten, on our for sale section, for as little as €250+ for a full set up.

gunhappy_ie

Gormley85 wrote: »

Im not trying to be smart. I just dont see why there is such hate towards them. Both yourself and himself have mentioned that they are crap (without explaining why you think so) and are making it sound as if they cant be got.

Hi Gormely,

I looked into this a while ago and Yes they can be gotten however, without handloading them or having them ordered the from the likes of HPS in the UK the only realistic manufacturer I saw of them was Lapua. Lapua again would be a special order if they still manufacture them.

They are a very specialized round that go against the grain (excuse the pun) as the original intention of the .223/556 was to be supersonic past 500 yards. Also you would really need a dedicated gun just for that ammo type because barrel twist rates would not stabilize bout supersonic and subsonic rounds.

The reason they arent so popular is because of:
(1) reason listed above
(2) They also dont cycle the AR platform so they have no consumer market in the US.

Good luck with your search and if you do find subsonic .223 rounds that are available here please send me a PM.

GH

Grizzly 45

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

The reason they arent so popular is because of:
(1) reason listed above
(2) They also dont cycle the AR platform so they have no consumer market in the US.

[3] And the .300 Blackout does this job 100 times better on an AR platform.
A big 30 cal round at subsonic speeds.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Lastly, performance. Just how accurate are they are any sort of distance? Not even 100 yards, how about 80, 60, 40 yards. I'm not talking target accuracy, just the ability to hit what you aim at? You have a short bullet designed to be shot in a 1:16 twist or so barrel being fired out of a 1:12 to 1:9 twist barrel. The OAL and wrong twist rate may cause keyholing and/or complete misses. Result, miss of worse again improper strike on your target and wounded animals running around/off. Might seem overly pedantic, but you need to consider all possibilities.

Think alot of people get two very distinctive types of these devices mixed up and it leads to no end of confusion and bother.
There are two types.Chamber adapters and sub barrel inserts,shortened to barrel inserts and shotgun chamber adapters,lumped as barrel inserts

Chamber adapters are generally sub caliber devices that can be fixed either semi permanently or permantly into a rifle chamber to give it either more versality or if it is an obscure caliber more shooting life.Examples would be a .308 in 30.06, 22 mag in a 22 hornet, 22Lr in a 22 mag etc

Barrel inserts are generally 4 to 6 ins in length and only work in a break action shotgun.The longer they are the more accurate they will be as they will be rifled.They are available in a galaxy of rifle and handgun calibers in the main shotgun calibers of 12,16,20.
Some hunters use them in their doubles for driven forest hunts for longer range and power than a shotgun slug and having one barrel for bird shot.Or as a "poor mans rifle" in a single shot break action shotgun
They can with abit of practise reach out to 150 yards on a deer or boar sized target..

The sub group of these is the simple shotgun chamber length device with no rifling or very little rifling and that fires a 22 caliber or pistol round for humane dispatch of trapped or downed animals when a shotgun blast would be too messy and destroy the trap.Their accuracy is " internal phone box distance accuracy":P
The other version is a caliber reducer,say 12 ga to 16,20,410, handy if you are training someone to use a gun and are worried about recoil.

If they are used within their intended purposes they are fine little devices,and are quite handy.i use one that allows me to shoot .22lr in my 22 mag,if I dont want to waste a .22 mag on a rabbit.They are like all of these things a compromise like multi tools,they will do the job,but if you are going to be tighting screws all day a screwdriver is the better tool.

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

Firstly, such adapters are not readily available here. I've never seen them in any dealers, although that does not mean they are not out there.

The long-gone Watts Brothers on the Quays always kept a stock of these adapters - definitely had 22-250 to 22LR and I think the old 5.6x57 to 22LR also.

Gormley85

Cass wrote: »

You need a license for a .22lr in order to have these. That means a new application (FCA1 and the works), trying to explain to a Firearms Officer what exactly they are, then paying €80 for the license. All this before you buy a single bullet.

The lad I know got his for working on his form, trigger work etc for targets. He was buying the cheapest 223 on the market the American Eagles at 10euro a box for 20 rounds.

So he bought the adapter for about 300 (thats including licence) and now buys 22lr federal bulk boxes. I think its around 30euro for 525 rounds. It doesnt take long to make back your money back at those prices. And as far as I know he got the adapter from a ROI RFD.

Cass wrote: »

Lastly, performance. Just how accurate are they are any sort of distance?

I was shooting bowling skittles at 80 meters and was knocking them no problem.

Cass wrote: »

For the above reasons about availability here, price, licensing, etc. why bother?

.

Why not just buy a .22lr. They can be gotten, on our for sale section, for as little as €250+ for a full set up.

The lad I know specifically wanted to shoot cheap ammo from his own target rifle that he would be using on competition day. Buying a second 22lr rifle defeats the purpose.

Gormley85

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

Hi Gormely,

I looked into this a while ago and Yes they can be gotten however, without handloading them or having them ordered the from the likes of HPS in the UK the only realistic manufacturer I saw of them was Lapua. Lapua again would be a special order if they still manufacture them.

They are a very specialized round that go against the grain (excuse the pun) as the original intention of the .223/556 was to be supersonic past 500 yards. Also you would really need a dedicated gun just for that ammo type because barrel twist rates would not stabilize bout supersonic and subsonic rounds.

The reason they arent so popular is because of:
(1) reason listed above
(2) They also dont cycle the AR platform so they have no consumer market in the US.

Good luck with your search and if you do find subsonic .223 rounds that are available here please send me a PM.

GH

Hi GunHappy,

I think you're mixing me up. Im not looking for subsonic .223's.

rsole1

Gormley85 wrote: »

The lad I know got his for working on his form, trigger work etc for targets. He was buying the cheapest 223 on the market the American Eagles at 10euro a box for 20 rounds.

So he bought the adapter for about 300 (thats including licence) and now buys 22lr federal bulk boxes. I think its around 30euro for 525 rounds. It doesnt take long to make back your money back at those prices. And as far as I know he got the adapter from a ROI RFD.






I was shooting bowling skittles at 80 meters and was knocking them no problem.





The lad I know specifically wanted to shoot cheap ammo from his own target rifle that he would be using on competition day. Buying a second 22lr rifle defeats the purpose.

Which adapter did you get that hits bowling skittles at 80 mtrs ?

http://www.gunadapters.com/brands/Short-Lane.html

Gormley85

rsole1 wrote: »

Which adapter did you get that hits bowling skittles at 80 mtrs ?

Its not my adapter so I have no idea. I can find out if yuo want?

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

The long-gone Watts Brothers on the Quays .............

Wow. There is a blast from the past. Have not heard that name in years. Was our local gun shop some 25 - 30 odd years ago.

Gormley85 wrote: »

The lad I know got his for working on his form, trigger work etc for targets. He was buying the cheapest 223 on the market the American Eagles at 10euro a box for 20 rounds.

So he bought the adapter for about 300 (thats including licence) and now buys 22lr federal bulk boxes.

I don't get something.

The €300 would have bought him 600 rounds of cheap .223. No way near as cheap as the bulk federal granted, but it's .223.

Here is where i'm confused so perhaps you could clarify it for me please.

• Why has he a .223 if he shoots .22lr for both training and competition.
• If he doesn't shoot .22lr in comp then practicing with it when he needs to train on a .223 would, to me, be counter productive as the rounds, recoil, etc would be so much different.
• If he does shoot .22lr competitively then why buy the .223 in the first place or if he had it why not simply change to a dedicated .22lr rifle. For the trade value of a second hand .223, and the €300 he sent adapting it to shoot .22lr he could have both an Anschutz 1710D.

I was shooting bowling skittles at 80 meters and was knocking them no problem.

Not saying anything derogatory, but i've seen a .22lr struggle to knock a skittle at 25 yards. You MUST hit the top of the neck of the pin to tip it over. So having not only the accuracy, but the energy to knock it at 80 yards is something i'd very much like to see.

The lad I know specifically wanted to shoot cheap ammo from his own target rifle that he would be using on competition day. Buying a second 22lr rifle defeats the purpose.

As above i'm still wondering why he does not get rid of the .223 and go for a dedicated .22lr target rifle.

Gormley85

Cass wrote: »

The €300 would have bought him 600 rounds of cheap .223. No way near as cheap as the bulk federal granted, but it's .223.

Thats a once off 600 rounds. If your going to be putting a 100 downrange every weekend then after your 7th week you start saving money.

Cass wrote: »

Why has he a .223 if he shoots .22lr for both training and competition.

No he shoots 223 for competition, and just uses the 22 as a cheap ammo to work on trigger breathing etc

Cass wrote: »

If he doesn't shoot .22lr in comp then practicing with it when he needs to train on a .223 would, to me, be counter productive as the rounds, recoil, etc would be so much different.

See above answer

Cass wrote: »

If he does shoot .22lr competitively then why buy the .223 in the first place or if he had it why not simply change to a dedicated .22lr rifle.

He shoots 223 competitively not 22lr.

Cass wrote: »

Not saying anything derogatory, but i've seen a .22lr struggle to knock a skittle at 25 yards. You MUST hit the top of the neck of the pin to tip it over. So having not only the accuracy, but the energy to knock it at 80 yards is something i'd very much like to see.

Im not sure what skittles your shooting that cant be knocked at 25 yards..?? The ones we shoot can be knocked over at over 150 yards handy. Maybe yours are made of a heavier plastic or something..?? Ours would be similar to a coke bottle.

Cass wrote: »

As above i'm still wondering why he does not get rid of the .223 and go for a dedicated .22lr target rifle.

Im not sure. I guess hes happy with his setup.

Cass

Gormley85 wrote: »

If your going to be putting a 100 downrange every weekend then after your 7th week you start saving money.

Or limit your time at the range. I did/do put up to 250 downrange per month. In .308. Target shooting is not cheap so it's best to know what you're getting into before starting into it.

No he shoots 223 for competition, and just uses the 22 as a cheap ammo to work on trigger breathing etc

Fair enough, but it still doesn't answer my question, nor do these:

See answer above

He shoots 223 competitively not 22lr.

Shooting a .22lr (rifle or via an adapter) when you shoot a .223 competitively is, to me, a huge mistake. You have no practice on how the rifle perforrms under recoil, how the bullet(s) acts in the wind, etc. It's like me using a .22lr to practice FTR and only shooting my .308 when a comp is on. The recoil would catch me out, i'd be so used to the rimfire ammo that i'd loose the ability to adjust/hold off the .308 bullet, my follow up/battery management would go to pot, etc.

I can understand the reasoning behind it, but i think it's a terrible waste of money, time and effort that is not even going to pay off. Again it's only my opinion, and i'm not looking to start a row. Your mate is entitled to do as he pleases, but i'd hesitate using the .223 american eagle, let alone trying to practice centrefire rifle shooting with a rimfire round.

Im not sure what skittles your shooting that cant be knocked at 25 yards..??

They were the full size ones from a local bowling alley. Generously donated for a charity shot some years ago.