Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Taoiseach’s visit to Pantibar

Options
2»

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Its lip service. Its like the pope talking about how much the church respects and includes women and homosexuals, its not worth anything without the change to back it up. Same here. I think its great to see the leader of the country in a gay bar, its a huge change from years ago but without real action to back up his so called support I fail to see why its being considered a game changer.


  • Options
    #33
    lyinghere
    Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭lyinghere


    As I said "pick your battles". We're all somewhat intelligent and can understand Enda obviously wouldnt have been there if it wasnt in his political interest to be there. I dont think we should be saying he's a great lad for going, but it has to be good that gay bars are not being treated as some sort of freaky place that the 'normal' people dont go to ever!



    J_E wrote: »
    That's not true at all - it's a photo op. I don't have to 'just accept' it if it happens to have an offsetting effect, I'm bothered at how people are lapping it up without being critical to a degree. It's the exact same as what he's been doing re: talking to homeless recently. I nearly guarantee you were he not in trouble politically, he wouldn't have dared touch the place with a bargepole. Does that kind of attitude not bother anyone?



    I think it's a little blasé to use 'we' and who 'we are using' in such a way, that's another debate though best left in person.


    I'll reserve my final judgement to when I actually see actions, not token appearances.


  • Options
    #34
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,815 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Collette Browne nails this for me.



    http://m.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/colette-browne/a-taoiseach-goes-into-a-gay-bar-lets-just-get-over-it-30797472.html

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #35
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Collette Browne nails this for me.



    http://m.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/colette-browne/a-taoiseach-goes-into-a-gay-bar-lets-just-get-over-it-30797472.html

    Indeed.

    To everybody upset about being used, it seems you either dont undestand how politics works or place an inflated value on your sexuality as a political commodity.

    Politicians "use" all demographics and issues on a daily basis. Its how the political system works. Most of the time, people dont really care as long as their interests are advanced. So OAPs dont care if a politicians uses them by calling for an increase to the pension, first time buyers dont care if a politician uses them by advocating for stamp duty relief. And local constituents dont really care if the politician is personally against that incinerator/turbine as long as he votes/campaigns against it (and preferably gets a few others to vote/campaign against it to).

    I dont know what age all the people so upset by this are, or whether you just have short memories, but given where "we" are coming from in terms of lgbt rights and equality (30 years ago defending criminalisation was the vote getter), the fact that we politicians see it their political advantage to advance our causes is something to be welcomed.

    So we dont have to feel any personal gratitude to Enda, but we should recognise the significance of the moment. Personally, I see it as even more significant that it was an opportunistic pr*ck (make no mistake, I don't like the man) who was the first to do so as Taoiseach rather than a "true believer" because it indicates just how much things have changed.


  • Options
    #36
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Its lip service. Its like the pope talking about how much the church respects and includes women and homosexuals, its not worth anything without the change to back it up. Same here. I think its great to see the leader of the country in a gay bar, its a huge change from years ago but without real action to back up his so called support I fail to see why its being considered a game changer.

    Meh ironically I see the church projecting far more value and dignity to LGBT to people than some elements in the LGBT movement itself.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    robp wrote: »
    Meh ironically I see the church projecting far more value and dignity to LGBT to people than some elements in the LGBT movement itself.

    Talk is cheap.


  • Options
    #38
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Talk is cheap.

    Well look at it with a measured view and you will see that. Analyse people's welfare and you will see the fruits of this.


  • Options
    #39
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    robp wrote: »
    Well look at it with a measured view and you will see that. Analyse people's welfare and you will see the fruits of this.

    I haven't seen anything of the sort. There are some nice sound bites about compassion yada yada but the substance of it is very much opposed to our welfare.


  • Options
    #40
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,934 ✭✭✭Daith


    floggg wrote: »
    I haven't seen anything of the sort. There are some nice sound bites about compassion yada yada but the substance of it is very much opposed to our welfare.

    Same sex Civil marriage is a grave injustice apparently


  • Options
    #41
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,815 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    robp wrote: »
    Meh ironically I see the church projecting far more value and dignity to LGBT to people than some elements in the LGBT movement itself.

    What do you mean?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Collette Browne nails this for me.



    http://m.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/colette-browne/a-taoiseach-goes-into-a-gay-bar-lets-just-get-over-it-30797472.html

    Hating this whole 'being gay is a non-thing get over it' vibe the article presents. Find that kind of attitude quite ignorant to be honest, even if it doesn't have bad intentions. It's a bit rich sitting on a perch and claiming that the gay lifestyle is exactly the same because it isn't for many people. If being gay is not such a big deal, the world wouldn't still be agonising over the sexuality of famous people and the name-calling and the stereotyping etc.


  • Options
    #43
    lyinghere
    Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭lyinghere


    J_E wrote: »
    Hating this whole 'being gay is a non-thing get over it' vibe the article presents. Find that kind of attitude quite ignorant to be honest, even if it doesn't have bad intentions. It's a bit rich sitting on a perch and claiming that the gay lifestyle is exactly the same because it isn't for many people. If being gay is not such a big deal, the world wouldn't still be agonising over the sexuality of famous people and the name-calling and the stereotyping etc.

    Really think you've missed the point here!

    "Gay people are the same as straight people and deserve the same legal rights and entitlements - their relationships should be treated with the same level of respect and dignity, by the State, as those of their heterosexual friends."

    She's not saying being gay is a non event which is actually an attitude that pisses me off also, its mostly just spouted by straight people who reckon gay people are just looking for attention i reckon.

    But she is saying gays as basic human being are not fundamentally different from straight people. Which shockingly still needs to be said despite all the peceived goodwill toward the LGBT community in 2014.


  • Options
    #44
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    floggg wrote: »
    I haven't seen anything of the sort. There are some nice sound bites about compassion yada yada but the substance of it is very much opposed to our welfare.

    Baffling. You are entitled to your opinion on values but not entitled to re-imagine objective health measures e.g. mental and physical health etc. I don't mean to tar brush all of the LGBT movement but some of mainstream elements that try to claim authority have some culpability.


  • Options
    #45
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    lyinghere wrote: »
    Really think you've missed the point here!

    But she is saying gays as basic human being are not fundamentally different from straight people.

    Oxymoron.


  • Options
    #46
    lyinghere
    Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭lyinghere


    robp wrote: »
    Oxymoron.

    How? You believe gays are fundamentally different from Straight people ?


  • Options
    #47
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    robp wrote: »
    Baffling. You are entitled to your opinion on values but not entitled to re-imagine objective health measures e.g. mental and physical health etc. I don't mean to tar brush all of the LGBT movement but some of mainstream elements that try to claim authority have some culpability.

    Lol.

    So anything tangible and specific that you can actually point to that the church have done to advance the dignity of gay people or what not then?


  • Options
    #48
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    lyinghere wrote: »
    How? You believe gays are fundamentally different from Straight people ?

    Socially and culturally, they are. I don't know why some try so hard to mask this fact over. I don't personally see it as a bad thing. I love that being gay makes me different, and able to see the world from a different perspective.


  • Options
    #49
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,815 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    J_E wrote: »
    Socially and culturally, they are. I don't know why some try so hard to mask this fact over. I don't personally see it as a bad thing. I love that being gay makes me different, and able to see the world from a different perspective.

    Its true there are different social and cultural norms. However its also true that many lgbt people prefer the social and cultural side of heteronormativity and cisnormativity.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #50
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Its true there are different social and cultural norms. However its also true that many lgbt people prefer the social and cultural side of heteronormativity and cisnormativity.

    I don't see my self as being in any way different culturally or socially. I know there are some gay people who do, and more power to them, but they are a sub-group and don't define any gay people.

    I also don't think I identify with heteronormativity either. I don't try to blend in or accept being straight as any sort of any defining characteristic of my social or cultural group (which is basically just middle class native irish).

    I'm proud of who I am and my sexuality, but I don't think it defines who I am or who I am not.

    So in very much in agreement that it should be a non-issue and I shouldn't be seen as any different from my straight friends and family.*



    * though that ideal has yet to be realised in practice


  • Options
    #51
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Well sure, where there is politics there is always PR. The idea for him to visit Panti Bar was not his, it was maybe an advisor thinking it would be some positive publicity in advance of referendum, or maybe it was an invitation that was extended to him by a gay person in the gay community who is also affiliated with Fine Gael party, regardless, he decided to visit so I guess it is a positive thing! Won't sway my decision on whether or not to vote FG in next election though, I will decide nearer the time and take a vast range of things into consideration.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement