Society controlling women

midlandsmissus

Why as a gender are we so controlled that we are not even allowed to grow hair on our legs? Is there anything that men are dictated to do as much as we are regarding our appearance? I think its ridiculous, we should have free choice. What do you think?

catallus

Who is not allowing you to grow hair on your legs?

Morag

Your body your choice, but yes the pressure to conform to 'beauty ideals' can be oppressive.

fits

I have hairy legs for most of the year. I even venture out with them from time to time, but yes, I dont feel 100% comfortable about that. I shave them when I feel like it.

midlandsmissus

catallus wrote: »

Who is not allowing you to grow hair on your legs?

I was away for the weekend.I was sitting with my friend in a hotel room and she was really upset and panicking as she had forgotten her razor and had planned to wear a skirt. I thought - this is ridiculous how much we are controlled by society. Even I would be afraid to go out in a skirt with hairy legs. Why are we controlled so much about how we should exactly have our body?

catallus

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I was away for the weekend.I was sitting with my friend in a hotel room and she was really upset and panicking as she had forgotten her razor and had planned to wear a skirt. I thought - this is ridiculous how much we are controlled by society. Even I would be afraid to go out in a skirt with hairy legs. Why are we controlled so much about how we should exactly have our body?

I'm sorry, but that sounds to me as if your friend is controlling herself, not society controlling her.

You do have to take responsibility for some things which you choose to do. Your "fear" of going out with unshaven legs has zero to do with society but more your perception of society's hold on you.

Lots of men can't let their beards grow because society expects professionals to be clean shaven for some reason.

If you're angry about a societal expectation of hairless legs, let the hair grow. It shouldn't take bravery to do that, but it does to some extent, but if you're bothered enough then just do it for your own satisfaction.

I'm often irritated by the expectation that I wear a skirt suit to meetings, and I wear a pants suit and a defiant expression instead. It's all about the pushback, learning to live with limits or expectations that are reasonable to you. My dad has a bushy beard and refuses to shave it off even though he works in an organisation where he's expected to look very conservative.

Making statements changes perceptions, so grow those hairy legs if you want!

eviltwin

I wouldn't do anything just because society expects it. I've bared hairy legs in the past, if people think its weird or wrong then so be it. They can think what they like, I ain't going to change for anyone but myself.

Candie

Candie wrote: »

I'm often irritated by the expectation that I wear a skirt suit to meetings, and I wear a pants suit and a defiant expression instead.

Seriously, that's a thing??
My suits are all trousers
Do they look at you funny or say something?

bluewolf

bluewolf wrote: »

Seriously, that's a thing??
My suits are all trousers
Do they look at you funny or say something?

I was in a navy pantsuit when one of the bigwigs in my last place asked me 'Are you not wearing a suit Candie?' as though it doesn't count. I pointed out it was a womens version of the one he had on, and he said he thinks womens suits 'aren't ones with pants'. Another time I was in a black suit and was told to make sure I dressed conservatively for a particular meeting, although a black pantsuit is certainly conservative enough for a man to wear.

Hasn't happened where I work now, tf.

Penny Tration

bluewolf wrote: »

Seriously, that's a thing??
My suits are all trousers
Do they look at you funny or say something?

It's definitely a thing. In the job I just quit, men wore slacks and could have facial hair if they wanted. They also wore runners.

Women were in skirts and tights, no runners allowed, only black flats, and had to have styled hair and full make up. Only one of those rules I stuck to was skirt and tights, because I prefer skirts.

Op, sounds like your friend is pressuring herself. Societal expectations don't have to be met.

I haven't bothered shaving my legs the past 2 weeks. My boyfriend doesn't care, neither do i.

I shave down below very regularly and my boyfriend prefers it (so do i), but he wouldn't bat an eyelid if I stopped.

You and your friend should have more confidence in yourselves.

pwurple

Jingle_Balls wrote: »

It's definitely a thing. In the job I just quit, men wore slacks and could have facial hair if they wanted. They also wore runners.

Women were in skirts and tights, no runners allowed, only black flats, and had to have styled hair and full make up. Only one of those rules I stuck to was skirt and tights, because I prefer skirts.

Were these customer facing or something?

In one of my jobs, women were allowed no makeup, trousers only, safety shoes, hair under a mop-cap. But that was in a lab. There are dress codes in loads of jobs, I don't take it too personally, as long as they are not mental!

Penny Tration

pwurple wrote: »

Were these customer facing or something?

In one of my jobs, women were allowed no makeup, trousers only, safety shoes, hair under a mop-cap. But that was in a lab. There are dress codes in loads of jobs, I don't take it too personally, as long as they are not mental!

Yeah, it was, sales assistant role. In a job before that (food industry), it was exactly as you described, except they wanted all irish women with full make up because we were 'too pale.'

skallywag

midlandsmissus wrote: »

...I think its ridiculous, we should have free choice. What do you think?...

Agree 100% with you. It's certainly not gender specific though to be fair, a man is going to face a pretty similar predicament if he doesn't go clean shaven into a situation where society would normally dictate that he should.

Lemming

I have free choice to appear as I want (and I do). I have facial hair (long before it became the populart hipster thing today) and long hair and tattoos (easily concealed). And yet I know that every single job interview I walk into the odds are stacked against me because of my general appearance because some people are just judgemental bell-ends. But, it's my choice and I accept the penalties that sometimes come with it.

So unless you find yourself in the predicament of being told "do X or die", nobody is making you do anything. You either agree to abide or conform of your own free will.

anewme

I have been blessed with great legs........they are well shaped, slim, toned, long...........and extremely hairy! Would put most guys to shame.

So I shave them. Not because I feel I have to. But because quite frankly they look blooming awful like that. No one needs to tell me that. And I have to shave them every three or four days or they are stubbly like a mans beard.

So I keep them nice for me. No one else.

Standman

anewme wrote: »

I have been blessed with great legs........they are well shaped, slim, toned, long...........and extremely hairy! Would put most guys to shame.

So I shave them. Not because I feel I have to. But because quite frankly they look blooming awful like that. No one needs to tell me that. And I have to shave them every three or four days or they are stubbly like a mans beard.

So I keep them nice for me. No one else.

While I'm sure no one has told you explicitly that hairy legs look awful, isn't the whole reason you think they "look blooming awful" based on societal norms?

If we lived in a society where hairy legs on women were viewed as beautiful/sexy/normal, do you honestly believe you would still shave them?

Morag

12 Female Characters Who Keep Shaving Despite Constant Peril
http://www.buzzfeed.com/arianelange/armpit-hair-ew

This made me laugh and it's true about how the grooming standard of no hair below the eyebrows is so ubiquitous
that how illogical that a woman who's struggled to surive for 12 months after the zombie apocalypse is protrayed as having shaven legs and arm pits.

eviltwin

Standman wrote: »

While I'm sure no one has told you explicitly that hairy legs look awful, isn't the whole reason you think they "look blooming awful" based on societal norms.

If we lived in a society where hairy legs on women were viewed as beautiful and sexy, do you honestly believe you would still shave them?

Its a misconception that women shave because they have been duped into thinking anything else is unacceptable. Its a very patronising view.

anewme

Standman wrote: »

While I'm sure no one has told you explicitly that hairy legs look awful, isn't the whole reason you think they "look blooming awful" based on societal norms.

If we lived in a society where hairy legs on women were viewed as beautiful/sexy/normal, do you honestly believe you would still shave them?

I kind of told myself they look awful, because they do. In the winter sometimes, I let them grow, they keep me warm:eek: but now I am going to the gym, I have to shave them or they look very manish.

I think its my own view to be honest,they look stumpy and thick when hairy and slim and long when shaved.

In a man for example, who can either have hairy chest or smooth chest, Im not into hairy chests at all, so I think its just my preference.

Standman

eviltwin wrote: »

Its a misconception that women shave because they have been duped into thinking anything else is unacceptable. Its a very patronising view.

Nobody of either gender is above being influenced by society in subconscious ways, in my opinion. I include myself in that.

Lyaiera

Morag wrote: »

12 Female Characters Who Keep Shaving Despite Constant Peril
http://www.buzzfeed.com/arianelange/armpit-hair-ew

Since James Bond has been allowed to have a mussed up do then I think these women should be allowed have hairy pits.

eviltwin

Standman wrote: »

Nobody of either gender is above being influenced by society in subconscious ways, in my opinion. I include myself in that.

No one is above it but its a bugbear of mine that women who shave are treated like idiots who only do it because society or the beauty industry has them duped. I was only talking about this the other day, I shave my pits because I find as a runner I smell more when I don't. Hair can really stink. I feel cleaner with my armpits shaved and I notice a lot more men doing it for the same reason. Believe it or not there are women out there who don't care what is in fashion or what beauty magazines say they should do.

Standman

eviltwin wrote: »

No one is above it but its a bugbear of mine that women who shave are treated like idiots who only do it because society or the beauty industry has them duped. I was only talking about this the other day, I shave my pits because I find as a runner I smell more when I don't. Hair can really stink. I feel cleaner with my armpits shaved and I notice a lot more men doing it for the same reason. Believe it or not there are women out there who don't care what is in fashion or what beauty magazines say they should do.

Yes but you are talking about an actual practical reason for shaving. Pro swimmers ,for instance, shave their entire bodies as they believe it reduces drag - a practical reason for doing so that has nothing to do with image.

Edit: I was never once suggesting that the only reason someone might shave is because of societal norms, I was referring to the specific case above.

midlandsmissus

eviltwin wrote: »

No one is above it but its a bugbear of mine that women who shave are treated like idiots who only do it because society or the beauty industry has them duped. I was only talking about this the other day, I shave my pits because I find as a runner I smell more when I don't. Hair can really stink. I feel cleaner with my armpits shaved and I notice a lot more men doing it for the same reason. Believe it or not there are women out there who don't care what is in fashion or what beauty magazines say they should do.

I agree Eviltwin its about power of choice, we should all be free to express ourselves as we want. Thats your choice, great. To the posters on here when is the last time you saw a woman out in public with hairy armpits/legs? Do you remember the absolute furore when Julia Roberts stepped out with a hairy armpit?

o1s1n

midlandsmissus wrote: »

To the posters on here when is the last time you saw a woman out in public with hairy armpits/legs?

How often do you see anyone's armpits in public though? I can't say I go around looking.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Do you remember the absolute furore when Julia Roberts stepped out with a hairy armpit?

No I don't. As I don't read trashy gossip rags. Liberate yourself from celebrity culture and the rest will follow.

Dolbert

To suggest that a man going out in public with a beard will provoke the same social reaction as a woman going out with obvious body hair is ludicrous. They are not treated as similarly acceptable, they're just not! It's got Jack all to do with 'celebrity culture' either.

o1s1n

Dolbert wrote: »

To suggest that a man going out in public with a beard will provoke the same social reaction as a woman going out with obvious body hair is ludicrous. They are not treated as similarly acceptable, they're just not! It's got Jack all to do with 'celebrity culture' either.

They're both going against 'social norms'. It doesn't matter if one is more severe than the other, they're both viewed I'm a bad light by many.

This is coming from a male with long hair and a beard by the the way. Don't get me started on peoples perceptions of men with long hair. I accept and deal with it though as its my own personal choice.

Lyaiera

Why do you accept it?

o1s1n

Lyaiera wrote: »

Why do you accept it?

I accept the fact that the world is full of judgemental idiots. Thinking you can change that on a large scale is ludicrous.

Best you can do is give them the finger by choosing your own path and look/dress the way you want and not the way you're 'told' to.

DoYouEvenLift

Honestly don't see why men were dragged into this "issue" from the get go in the op. Really don't see what the problem is here. Everyone is free to do whatever they wish with their bodies as long as they understand that there are people out there, who you don't even know so their opinions don't mean sh!t to you, that will judge you no matter what so it's up to you to be able to not care about that judgement. Everyone gets judged for everything. You cannot change that. So either get over any fears of being judged and don't shave your legs and armpits or whatever it is you wanna do or else continue feeling bitter and thinking that it's society's fault that you're not capable, or brave enough, of doing the prior.

Plenty of women don't shave and they do not give a fuk what anyone thinks about them. You're completely free to do the same. Stop acting like some fragile victim.


Look at this Olympic weightlifter, she's competing live with millions of people watching with absolutely zero fuks given

Lyaiera

o1s1n wrote: »

I accept the fact that the world is full of judgemental idiots. Thinking you can change that on a large scale is ludicrous.

I would be pleased if I can change it on any scale. I'm not going to resign myself to an unjust world. I'm actively trying to change it to a just world. It saddens me to think people would put up with injustice.

midlandsmissus

DoYouEvenLift wrote: »

Honestly don't see why men were dragged into this "issue" from the get go in the op. Really don't see what the problem is here. Everyone is free to do whatever they wish with their bodies as long as they understand that there are people out there, who you don't even know so their opinions don't mean sh!t to you, that will judge you no matter what so it's up to you to be able to not care about that judgement. Everyone gets judged for everything. You cannot change that. So either get over any fears of being judged and don't shave your legs and armpits or whatever it is you wanna do or else continue feeling bitter and thinking that it's society's fault that you're not capable, or brave enough, of doing the prior.

Plenty of women don't shave and they do not give a fuk what anyone thinks about them. You're completely free to do the same. Stop acting like some fragile victim.


Look at this Olympic weightlifter, she's competing live with millions of people watching with absolutely zero fuks given

Please dont call me a fragile victim of which I am certainly not.Pointing out inequalities makes someone far from a victim- it can instigate change. There was an Irish girl called Eimear something who went on This Morning a while ago. She was a news feature because as a wombn she had decided to grow her leg hair and was speaking out about it.You can find the show. Even she wore boots on the show as she was too afraid to show off her hairy legs. I just think its gone too far.

o1s1n

Lyaiera wrote: »

I would be pleased if I can change it on any scale. I'm not going to resign myself to an unjust world. I'm actively trying to change it to a just world. It saddens me to think people would put up with injustice.

I didn't say on 'any scale' though, I said a large scale. If you want to live in a world where nobody judges anyone else's appearance, that's a lot of people to influence. Millions.

Realistically, can such a utopia ever exist? Is much as I'd love for it to, I really don't think it ever will. Humans are just far too concerned about judging others, it's in our nature to do so - as much as it disheartens me!

So no, I don't think 'society controls women'. However, I do think it influences people in general. The point I was trying to make is that you can control whether you allow yourself to be influenced by this or not.

If you fit into the 'not' category, then unfortunately the ignorant masses are going to have something to say.

Saralee4

catallus wrote: »

I'm sorry, but that sounds to me as if your friend is controlling herself, not society controlling her.

You do have to take responsibility for some things which you choose to do. Your "fear" of going out with unshaven legs has zero to do with society but more your perception of society's hold on you.

But her friend was raised in a society that says women legs, underarms etc. should be hairless. Society has impacted her view of her natural self.

Men do shave their faces and that is not natural I guess but I think a lot of men are proud of their beards, those men that grow them.

I think everybody to a certain extent feels that society has expectations from them and for both sexes.

Women, I feel have a lot of pressure to be everything, the career woman, the attractive beautiful woman, the kind and soft vulnerable woman, the tough woman, the soccer mom, the lovely house etc.

You just have to go with what works for you and try not to conform to something that doesn't make you happy. But yea it is a pain to shave you legs and in fairness I would have been freaked out too if I forgot my razor

DoYouEvenLift

DoYouEvenLift wrote: »

Honestly don't see why men were dragged into this "issue" from the get go in the op. Really don't see what the problem is here. Everyone is free to do whatever they wish with their bodies as long as they understand that there are people out there, who you don't even know so their opinions don't mean sh!t to you, that will judge you no matter what so it's up to you to be able to not care about that judgement. Everyone gets judged for everything. You cannot change that. So either get over any fears of being judged and don't shave your legs and armpits or whatever it is you wanna do or else continue feeling bitter and thinking that it's society's fault that you're not capable, or brave enough, of doing the prior.

Plenty of women don't shave and they do not give a fuk what anyone thinks about them. You're completely free to do the same. Stop acting like some fragile victim.


Look at this Olympic weightlifter, she's competing live with millions of people watching with absolutely zero fuks given

You can disagree with the op and express your opinion without the hostility surely? It's completely unnecessary to be so rude.

we'llallhavetea

i keep my legs, pits and vag hair free because i like them smooth, i would feel gross if i didn't have them hair free! ugh, after electric picnic my underarms had a good 2mm of hair and i nearly vomited touching them. i like to feel smooth and thats it really *shrugs*

Neyite

*rolls up trousers and looks at legs*

by the looks of it, I've not been controlled in several weeks. :pac:

Earl Turner

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Why as a gender are we so controlled that we are not even allowed to grow hair on our legs? Is there anything that men are dictated to do as much as we are regarding our appearance? I think its ridiculous, we should have free choice. What do you think?

What is this bs? Shaving your legs is basic hygiene. It would be like me never shaving and then bitching about 'unrealistic standards for men'. ****in hell. Grow your legbeards all you want but don't expect to ever get a man.

Venus In Furs

A lot of women themselves are the ones who perpetuate this "control". I personally would not let any of my bits (besides my head!) be seen hairy (well a teeny bit - as there needs to be a minimum there in order to dehair) and yeh, it's for others, but it's also for me as I care what others think in this regard and would prefer to feel comfortable with myself. It's just grooming/presentation IMO.

Emme

Jingle_Balls wrote: »

Yeah, it was, sales assistant role. In a job before that (food industry), it was exactly as you described, except they wanted all irish women with full make up because we were 'too pale.'

Did other nationalities have to wear full make-up as well or was it just Irish women? If so it smacks of racism.

Roselm

Jingle_Balls wrote: »

Yeah, it was, sales assistant role. In a job before that (food industry), it was exactly as you described, except they wanted all irish women with full make up because we were 'too pale.'

I feel a little alarmist saying this but can you imagine if a black person was told to bleach their skin because it was too black for the company's liking!!!

Roselm

Emme wrote: »

Did other nationalities have to wear full make-up as well or was it just Irish women? If so it smacks of racism.

You got there before me!

Standman

Earl Turner wrote: »

What is this bs? Shaving your legs is basic hygiene. It would be like me never shaving and then bitching about 'unrealistic standards for men'. ****in hell. Grow your legbeards all you want but don't expect to ever get a man.

I presume you shave your legs too then, seeing as it's just "basic hygiene"?

kylith

Earl Turner wrote: »

What is this bs? Shaving your legs is basic hygiene. It would be like me never shaving and then bitching about 'unrealistic standards for men'. ****in hell. Grow your legbeards all you want but don't expect to ever get a man.

1) I shave my legs when I absolutely have to, and I have never had a problem getting a boyfriend.

2) Please explain how it is unhygienic.

fits

we'llallhavetea wrote: »

i keep my legs, pits and vag hair free because i like them smooth, i would feel gross if i didn't have them hair free! ugh, after electric picnic my underarms had a good 2mm of hair and i nearly vomited touching them. i like to feel smooth and thats it really *shrugs*

That's a fairly extreme reaction to your own body hair???

Saralee4

I believe that the negative feelings that people have towards their own body hair are based on what society has been telling us.

I do shave but I shave because I seen adverts growing up showing me that women are supposed to have no leg, armpit hair, i wore a skirt to school and i seen everyone slag off the girl with the hairy legs whose mam hadn't given her a razor yet, i heard everyone slag off and look disgusted when Julia Roberts revealed her armpit hair at some awards do. A number of things throughout my life have thought me that shaving is the normal way for a woman. This is a learned behaviour.

Now if i had not been brought up in a society that says that women should shave and a society where men and everyone love hair and it is seen as a sign or maturity in a young women then im sure that i would have been delighted with my hair and proud but that's not how it is. We are made to feel that it is something we have to get rid of.

I do like how my legs feel when they are smooth though so its not like i am crying every night about shaving haha its just the way it is but theres no point in denying it or making excuses for the reasons why you shave

The whole Hygiene thing is not true. If hair was unhygienic, we wouldn't be born with the ability to grow hair now would we?

For the women that claim to shave because it is unhygienic, lets say you went on a trip to the doctor. He told you that there has been a new number of studies that prove that hair on women's head is unhygienic. There is no doubt that the hair on womens head is unhygienic still the rest of society are still the same. Thick shiney hair according to society is considered healthy but you know that it is unhygienic. Are you gonna shave your head? or are you gonna find an alternative to keep your hair clean?

skallywag

midlandsmissus wrote: »

To the posters on here when is the last time you saw a woman out in public with hairy armpits/legs?

Anytime I've ever used a Sauna in Germany.

Penny Tration

Emme wrote: »

Did other nationalities have to wear full make-up as well or was it just Irish women? If so it smacks of racism.

Just the Irish women. There were only 4 Irish women, and about 20 from Latvia, Poland, Lithuania and India. All lovely ladies, and all either naturally tanned or avid users of sunbeds :pac:

I refused on the 'racism' ground.

Penny Tration

Earl Turner wrote: »

What is this bs? Shaving your legs is basic hygiene. It would be like me never shaving and then bitching about 'unrealistic standards for men'. ****in hell. Grow your legbeards all you want but don't expect to ever get a man.

Oh crap, I must tell my boyfriend to dump me because I only shave my legs when I have to.

Earl Turner

Earl Turner wrote: »

Grow your legbeards all you want but don't expect to ever get a man.

Oh no! Ladies, we've been warned of the horrific consequences!

After all, there's nothing in the entire world more important than snaring yourself a man who can't tell the difference between grooming and hygiene.