Percentage of Catholic weddings in Ireland

Peregrinus

Murrisk wrote: »

So still quite a drop off. Interesting what the likes of Nox above would make of that. The figure doesn't anywhere near tally with his anecdotal observations. Even among the potential cohort for Catholic ceremonies, nearly four out of ten are deciding not to get married in a Catholic church.

Well, no. Only 78% of the population identifies as Catholic. The total of 18,984 first marriages must include many couples where the spouses are not Catholic; presumably we can't include them in the "potential cohort for Catholic marriages". And, where one spouse is a Catholic and the other is not, the reason they don't turn up in the 12,140 Catholic marriages will in some cases be because they are marrying in the church of the other spouse.

We don't have figures for the religious affiliation of spouses; the Registrar doesn't collect that information. So we can't make the appropriate adjustments here.

The 64% figure is therefore fairly rubbery. I suggest the real significance is found not in the value of 64%, but the changes in that value from census to census. I haven't done the exercise for previous census, but I'd be fairly confident that the figure has declines significantly in the past 20 years, and is still declining.

Murrisk

It's untrue that people with non-Catholic future spouses can't be included in the cohort. My friend had a Catholic ceremony with her Anglican husband-to-be.

Anyhoo, no matter way you look at it, figures for Catholic ceremonies are dropping fast.

We are making the same point here. The variable you give above will make small differences, sure. But the upshot is that even taking out the people who we know for sure can't marry in a Catholic church, the numbers are well down. The group where one future spouse is not Catholic will make a small difference to the statistics but I don't think it would a statistically significant difference.

Peregrinus

Murrisk wrote: »

It's untrue that people with non-Catholic future spouses can't be included in the cohort. My friend had a Catholic ceremony with her Anglican husband-to-be.

No. I think we have two groups here:

First, couples where neither spouse is Catholic. The fact that these people don't choose Catholic weddings tells us nothing about secularisation.

Secondly, couples where one spouse is Catholic and the other not. If such a couple doesnt choose a Catholic wedding, that doesn't necessarily tell us anything about secularisation. They could still be having a religious wedding.

Take a step back. The relevance of first-time opposite-sex marriages is that they all could be celebrated in churches, if the couple wished. Hence knowing how they are celebrated provides a relevant measure of secularisation.

What we know from the published statistics is that more-or-less 64% of first-time opposite-sex marriages are celebrated in Catholic ceremonies. The other 36% are divided between:

- civil ceremonies and Humanist ceremonies (both basically non-religious)

- Spiritualist ceremonies (some of which are for non-religious couples and some for couples who are somewhat religious, but unchurched, and a few of which are actually for Spiritualists)

- ceremonies of other religious denominations (which we obviously can’t count as non-religious)

But we don't have a breakdown of the 36% between those categories. So we don't actually know what percentage of first-time opposite-sex marriages are celebrated in religious ceremonies.

Still, the dominance of the Catholic church in Ireland is such that measuring changes in that 64% figure probably does serve as a useful proxy for secularisation. If that figure is going down, it's not likely that other religious ceremonies are going up by enough to compensate for it. So while it doesn't give us an absolute measure of the secularisation of Irish society, it probably does give us a good indication of trends in secularisation over time.

Murrisk wrote: »

Anyhoo, no matter way you look at it, figures for Catholic ceremonies are dropping fast.

Yes, I agree.

And this is to be expected. The proportion of the population identifying as Catholic has been declining sharply. Wouldn't we expect a corresponding decline in the proportion of the population celebrating their wedding in Catholic ceremonies?

There's still a gap, of course. 78% of the population identified as Catholic in the 2016 census, but only 64% of first-time opposite-sex marriages in 2016 were celebrated in Catholic ceremonies.

I suspect the gap is partly explained by demographics. 78% Catholic identification is the figure for the population as a whole, but first-time oppose-sex marriages are overwhelmingly celebrated by people in their 20s and 30s. The breakdown of Catholic identification by age has not yet been published, but the breakdown of the non-religious population by age has been, and guess what? Non-religious identification peaks for people aged between 20 and 40. So it seems highly likely that the proportion of the population aged between 20 and 40 who identify as Catholic is well below 78%. When that statistic is published, we may find it's a good deal closer to 64%.

Murrisk

Yes, with less people identifying as Catholic, that of course means less people will have Catholic ceremonies. Naturally. I've not said otherwise? And I'm not surprised by the falling figures. You are going into a lot of detail to apparently refute me but are saying much the same thing.

Peregrinus

No, you misunderstand me. I'm not seeking to refute you; I think we're in broad agreement. Catholicism is in decline, and this is reflected both in the Census figures for those identifying as Catholic, and in the Marriage statistics for those marrying in Catholic ceremonies. And (again, I think we both agree about this) the decline has probably not finished yet; future Censuses/marriage statistics will show further decline.

My point is that the marriage statistics require a little bit of unpacking in order to see exactly what it is they do say about secularisation, and what they don't. But my conclusion, for what it's worth, is that they seem to be pretty much confirming what the census figures are saying. We'll have a better handle on that when the more detailed census results are released, but I'd be very surprised if they change that conclusion very much.

Murrisk

Oh, I see. Yeah, I've not been doing any great statisical analysis. I just wholly reject anecdote from anyone, unless just comparing as a matter of interest. Trying to disprove stats with anecdote is kind of a bit, I dunno, desperate? In my social circle, it's about 50/50, but it's a small sample size so that information is not particularly useful.

magicbastarder

100% of the marriages i have partaken in (as in actually getting married) have been secular. need we say more? catholic ireland is clearly dead and gone.

.........

Most of the people that do have Catholic weddings these days are just bluffing, and just do so to keep their elderly relatives happy, who seem happy enough to go along with knowing their sons and daughters are just bluffing it. Rather like the census bluffing that goes on. Cultural catholic would be a better term on the census form.

The_Valeyard

magicbastarder wrote: »

100% of the marriages i have partaken in (as in actually getting married) have been secular. need we say more? catholic ireland is clearly dead and gone.

Been to six Catholic weddings last year. Only one other secular.

Murrisk

Anecdote-sparring is pointless! I only mentioned my own social circle to highlight the uselessness of personal observations in this regard. My own circle would have a lower amount of Catholic ceremonies than the data shows. Others would observe higher. Population-level data is the only thing for it.

AndrewJRenko

......... wrote: »

Cultural catholic would be a better term on the census form.

Would be better if they asked about practice rather than opinion - have you been to Mass in the last month, or similar.

Walter H Price

......... wrote: »

Most of the people that do have Catholic weddings these days are just bluffing, and just do so to keep their elderly relatives happy, who seem happy enough to go along with knowing their sons and daughters are just bluffing it. Rather like the census bluffing that goes on. Cultural catholic would be a better term on the census form.

To be honest i was really surprised when it came to planning my wedding and the decision not to baptize any kids we have , at the views allot of our mates and younger family members (who are in no way catholic, baptized but not practicing at all) because they viewed it as "the done thing " or " Irish Culture" that really surprised me, allot of these people are for the most part well educated, bright and relatively individually thinking people but when it came to a the church stuff (again a church most of them openly don't believe in , rip the p!ss out of etc...) they were completely blinkered , it was a real eye opener to be honest. like we expected it from the nana's and some of the older Aunty's but not cousins , friends and siblings all under 30 but who hadn't set foot in a church since their confo other then for weddings , christenings and funerals to have any sort of issue.

lazygal

I am in several parenting groups on Facebook. In one, two out of 30 babies weren't baptised, mine included, in another I was the only one who wasn't baptising. People have all sorts of excuses, like the grannies and there was a poster here who said she baptised because there was a 200 year old christening gown in the family, or school places. Some people also get a little defensive about their choices when we say we haven't and won't baptise our children-one guy told me my principles would change once we saw our kids wouldn't get into the best schools.

pilly

lazygal wrote: »

I am in several parenting groups on Facebook. In one, two out of 30 babies weren't baptised, mine included, in another I was the only one who wasn't baptising. People have all sorts of excuses, like the grannies and there was a poster here who said she baptised because there was a 200 year old christening gown in the family, or school places. Some people also get a little defensive about their choices when we say we haven't and won't baptise our children-one guy told me my principles would change once we saw our kids wouldn't get into the best schools.

Personally I don't see a big issue with baptising a child either way. It's not like they're branded with a big Catholic stamp. They're still free to make their own choices later in life.

Most people just don't see it as a big deal and tbf it is necessary to get into a lot of schools. This will change in coming years but it hasn't changed yet.

Mr. CooL ICE

Just had a think back to the most recent weddings I've attended. 43% catholic weddings from my anecdotal experience

2012 - Church. Groom staunch atheist, not sure about bride
2014 - Civil. SSM, both atheist
2015 - Church. Groom atheist, not sure about bride
2015 - Civil. Both atheist
2015 - Civil. Groom staunch atheist, bride lapsed catholic
2016 - Church. 99% sure groom is atheist, not sure about bride. Both families deeply religious though
2017 - Civil. Don't know the couple well enough to know leanings

nozzferrahhtoo

pilly wrote: »

Personally I don't see a big issue with baptising a child either way. It's not like they're branded with a big Catholic stamp. They're still free to make their own choices later in life.

And if later in life the choice they wish to make is to severe all links with the catholic church, remove themselves from being considered a member, and not have their name and existence used in any and all calculations on the churches numbers......... how would you suggest they exercise that choice? Is there currently an option for this? I admit I lost track of it once the church closed the loophole the "count me out" website was using to let people do it.

I think the ideal many parents, myself included, go for is to allow their children to make as many of their own choices later in life as possible. As membership in the catholic church seems to be eternal once applied for...... many parents would like to let their children make that choice later in life ideally by themselves rather than make it now and have no way for the child to unmake it later.

pilly

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

And if later in life the choice they wish to make is to severe all links with the catholic church, remove themselves from being considered a member, and not have their name and existence used in any and all calculations on the churches numbers......... how would you suggest they exercise that choice? Is there currently an option for this? I admit I lost track of it once the church closed the loophole the "count me out" website was using to let people do it.

I think the ideal many parents, myself included, go for is to allow their children to make as many of their own choices later in life as possible. As membership in the catholic church seems to be eternal once applied for...... many parents would like to let their children make that choice later in life ideally by themselves rather than make it now and have no way for the child to unmake it later.

The census is where most official calculations are taken from in Ireland, people have a choice at that point to state their religion.

To me the churches own figures mean nothing except to them.

I get where people are coming from when they don't have their children baptised but I also see the other side. Are you not actually removing some choices from a child also? Like what school they can go to? Whether or not they can make their communion?

lazygal

pilly wrote: »

The census is where most official calculations are taken from in Ireland, people have a choice at that point to state their religion.

To me the churches own figures mean nothing except to them.

I get where people are coming from when they don't have their children baptised but I also see the other side. Are you not actually removing some choices from a child also? Like what school they can go to? Whether or not they can make their communion?

My children aren't catholic, they would never make 'their' communion because it not something they own. The same way they won't do any other religious rites until they're old enough to make an informed decision. We have school places for them also.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

pilly

lazygal wrote: »

My children aren't catholic, they would never make 'their' communion because it not something they own. The same way they won't do any other religious rites until they're old enough to make an informed decision. We have school places for them also.

Good for you.

nozzferrahhtoo

pilly wrote: »

The census is where most official calculations are taken from in Ireland, people have a choice at that point to state their religion.

Not really an answer to the question I asked though is it?

pilly wrote: »

To me the churches own figures mean nothing except to them.

I doubt it is to you that such people have concerns over what the figures mean though. The ability to be able to claim a large membership base has real world potentials and implications that those wishing to take their names OFF such rosters would prefer not to be feeding. From obtaining sponsorship and funding, to lobbying for influence of politicians, and so forth.

pilly wrote: »

Are you not actually removing some choices from a child also? Like what school they can go to? Whether or not they can make their communion?

Assuming you are talking about the first school a child goes to, I have to admit I have yet to meet ANY child that chose the school they went to which somewhat negates your point. So no, I do not think you are removing any choice there really as it is not a choice children of that age generally have or make in the first place.

But communion too is a bit of a non-point as it is not a "Miss it and it's gone" thing. One can enter into the sacrament at any later point in ones life too. A person, at 18, who has not yet had it or done it can happily amble along and partake of the initiations required. So no, you would not be removing a choice there either.

pilly

lazygal wrote: »

My children aren't catholic, they would never make 'their' communion because it not something they own. The same way they won't do any other religious rites until they're old enough to make an informed decision. We have school places for them also.

You know your previous post mocked people for getting all defensive about their choice to baptise their children and yet you're also highly defensive about your choice not to.

.......

This post has been deleted.

Walter H Price

I'd never really be defensive of it to be honest , it just makes sense to us not to get married in a church , we don't believe in any of it the church has played 0 role in our lives or relationship to date , other then the amount of effort i went through last year trying to leave it formally , as such it would be totally meaningless and impersonal in our view to get married in one also why would we baptize our kids at birth , we don't believe in it we wont be raising our kids catholic or bringing them to mass so why baptize them, the schools barrier will be gone soon enough i'd imagine , id be hoping to get out of here before having to send kids to school anyway and if at 8 or 9 they want to make their communion they can get baptized then and make it if they want , likewise with getting married friend of my parents got baptized at 42 so as he could get married in a church (he was non religious and from an atheist background) but the girl he was marrying (also non religious) wanted a Church venue. So your not taking anything away from kids , like they can enter the church at any time should they wish , but once in its a fkin nightmare trying to leave.

pilly

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Where have I said I didn't believe in God?

.......

This post has been deleted.

recedite

pilly wrote: »

The census is where most official calculations are taken from in Ireland, people have a choice at that point to state their religion.

To me the churches own figures mean nothing except to them.

Strictly speaking, this "should be" true. But "sentiment" is what drives politicians, and if they get a sense that nearly all babies are being baptised into the RCC, there is a tendency for them to believe that nearly all voters are happy with schools and hospitals being controlled by the RCC.

If the census figures were the only factor involved, we would see an immediate divestment of a large number of existing RC schools into a more secular model. But in fact, we have only seen one or two.

Only one operating school has directly swapped from religious patronage to having a multidenominational ethos, that being Newtownwhite Educate Together National School in Co Mayo, which was under Church of Ireland ownership until 2014. The Catholic Church was due to hand over its Burren National School building outside the town to Educate Together last September, but the property was deemed unfit for purpose.
About 90 per cent of primary schools remain under the patronage of the Catholic Church.

As for maternity hospitals, that's a whole other debate raging away, and the census results appear to have nothing to do with it.

magicbastarder

pilly wrote: »

I get where people are coming from when they don't have their children baptised but I also see the other side. Are you not actually removing some choices from a child also? Like what school they can go to? Whether or not they can make their communion?

you're not removing anyone's choice about whether they will want to partake in religious ceremonies, by not doing it when they're too young to consent/understand implications.
i would struggle to understand why this could be considered an issue.

pilly

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Maybe I should have worded it differently. What I meant by that was I don't have an issue with parents either baptising or not baptising their children.

I don't pass judgement either way.

Walter H Price

pilly wrote: »

Maybe I should have worded it differently. What I meant by that was I don't have an issue with parents either baptising or not baptising their children.

I don't pass judgement either way.

i'd agree i get why people do it , in terms of it does at present make getting kids into schools easier and stuff , i couldn't name one of the parents who's kids christenings we've been too who are remotely religious (in fact a good 3/4 of em were living in sin ) but it does keep the Ma's and Nana's happy , that will change but slowly and in time. I wouldn't call people out as hypocrites or question why they were choosing to do it, the same with church weddings.

I would expect the same curtsy for choosing not too , my view is people who know us know we are not religious at all ,it should in my view have been expected and accepted that we wouldn't marry in the church or that we wouldn't have kids baptized.