Percentage of Catholic weddings in Ireland

Boom__Boom

Found an interesting stat which shows the decreasing role of the Catholic Church in Ireland.

In 1994 15,200 out of a total of 16,621 weddings took place in Roman Catholic churches - 91%

In 2004 15,978 out of a total of 20,979 weddings took place in Roman Catholic churches - 76%

In 2013 12,921 out of a total of 20,680 weddings took place in Roman Catholic churches - 62%

These figures are from a recent CSO publication - link below.

It really is a stark illustration of the declining influence of the role of the Catholic Church in Ireland in less than 20 years.

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-syi/statisticalyearbookofireland2014/overview/#.VHsWqzF5GAz

Cabaal

Wow, that's an impressive drop and its only going to grow as well once marriage equality comes in

Cantremember

And take into account that many of those "Catholic" weddings have been "living in sin" for years before the wedding and only do the church thing for the walk down the aisle. And they won't set foot in a church until there's a baptism.

Gonna take a guess that plenty of the proportional fall is due to remarriages not being allowed in church.

lazygal

What's even more strange are the number of Catholic weddings we've been to where the couple have not only been living in sin but their children are in the bridal party to prove it! Seems really strange to start married life in a church that supposedly opposes that type of carry on.

amdublin

What does "a Catholic wedding" mean? One that took place in a church?

I'd wager that 90% of people who get married in a church are far from practising Catholics.

No idea why suddenly getting married in a church becomes so important for a person who can't be bothered to go every Sunday.

Cabaal

lazygal wrote: »

What's even more strange are the number of Catholic weddings we've been to where the couple have not only been living in sin but their children are in the bridal party to prove it! Seems really strange to start married life in a church that supposedly opposes that type of carry on.

But its grand, the church are happy you got married because then the children can be saved and brought up in a marriage

they'll be fine upstanding children who believe in god :pac:

lazygal

Cabaal wrote: »

But its grand, the church are happy you got married because then the children can be saved and brought up in a marriage

they'll be fine upstanding children who believe in god :pac:

But they're in dicey ground before then?
I also find it weird when couples say father so and so made the ceremony really personal. Every Catholic wedding I've been to is just a mass with a marriage bit stuck in the middle.

Cabaal

lazygal wrote: »

But they're in dicey ground before then?
I also find it weird when couples say father so and so made the ceremony really personal. Every Catholic wedding I've been to is just a mass with a marriage bit stuck in the middle.

But he made it personal by using their names and telling a story that had nothing to do with them because he knows nothing about them!

But, it was so personal cause they never heard that story before....likely cause they don't go to mass each week

Kidchameleon

Would be interesting to see how many of those weddings were not performed by a priest. With permission from a bishop, a priest can still perform a wedding outside a church building. The drop in figures seems to coincide with the law change in 2007, I blame our pussy leadership that we elected for listening to the church for so long.

magicbastarder

Kidchameleon wrote: »

With permission from a bishop, a priest can still perform a wedding outside a church building.

i've not heard of anyone i know having been to such a wedding - so from that very representative sample space, i'd hazard a guess that it's rare enough.

plus, the sort of person who wants a 'traditional' wedding will want it in the church anyway.

Peregrinus

Deleted User wrote: »

Gonna take a guess that plenty of the proportional fall is due to remarriages not being allowed in church.

Some. 1994 was before the introduction of divorce, so virtually all of the 1994 marriages would have been first marriages. A proportion of the 2013 marriages are second or subsequent marriages, and relatively few of those will be celebrated in a Catholic ceremony. But the source doesn't give any breakdown between first and later marriages, which makes it difficult to say how big a factor this is in the overall picture.

But not that the absolute number of Catholic marriages has fallen (from 15,200 in 1994 to 12.921 in 2013). That can't be due to second marriages, since none of the 1994 marriages were second marriages. And it's not due to a declining marriage rate, since the number of marriages of all kinds, Catholic and other, has risen.

amdublin wrote: »

What does "a Catholic wedding" mean? One that took place in a church?

One where the authority of the celebrant to act derives from the fact that he's a Catholic priest.

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Would be interesting to see how many of those weddings were not performed by a priest.

The figure for Catholic weddings is for weddings celebrated by a Catholic priest (or deacon, but that is vanishingly rare in Ireland).

Kidchameleon wrote: »

With permission from a bishop, a priest can still perform a wedding outside a church building.

That's also extremely rare in Ireland.

Kidchameleon wrote: »

The drop in figures seems to coincide with the law change in 2007.

Yes. There's a sharp fall in the Catholic wedding rate from 2007 to 2010, and a correspounding bounce over the same period in the rate of civil weddings and "other religious" weddings.

This suggests that the rate of Catholic weddings was artificially sustained by the lack of other options until 2007.

MrPudding

Peregrinus wrote: »

This suggests that the rate of Catholic weddings was artificially sustained by the lack of other options until 2007.

And they probably still are, just to a lesser extent.

MrP

SebBerkovich

I'm sure those numbers will shoot back up once the let gays and priests get married.
Swings and roundabouts folks.

DazMarz

Most people I know choose particularly picturesque churches to get married in. Because they are picturesque; they look good in the bleedin' wedding photos. In fairness, certain church buildings are absolutely beautiful. There are a lot of churches that lend a wonderful backdrop to wedding photos. This is why a lot of people still get married in churches; that and a bit of pressure from their parents and stuff.

I often go to weddings, funerals, baptisms, etc. and go through the sit, kneel, sit, stand, sit, kneel, sit, kneel, stand, sit... but for the sake of appearances and all that. Most people could give less of a bollocks about the religious angle once the day is over.

As one poster said, a lot of people are now getting married having been "living in sin" for years. Hell, a lot of weddings nowadays, some of the guests of honour are the children of the people getting married! Who honestly cares any more (apart from a few of the devout crowd).

When/if (hopefully "when") civil marriage gets voted in next year, those numbers will continue to slide.

Personally, I would have no objection to getting married in a church, especially a nice, pretty one that will look good in the photos.

And I, sickeningly, will probably get my kids baptised, if only to ensure that they would not be precluded from getting into decent schools. But as for a religious upbringing... ha. I'll be telling them that Santa Claus and Jesus often go drinking together... :P

eviltwin

10 years ago every wedding I went to would have been in a church. I can only think of one wedding in recent years that was. None of the civil weddings were second marriages or non Catholic couples or anything like that. Attitudes are changing, its great!

Peregrinus

MrPudding wrote: »

And they probably still are, just to a lesser extent.

Possibly, but hard to quantify. I do see a sharp fall in Catholic weddings from 2007 to 2011, then levelling off to a gentler decline (but still a decline). This is consistent with a change in the law, followed by non-church providers gearing up over a period to meet increased demand, followed by that demand being met. I'm not seeing huge evidence that people want something other than a Catholic wedding but still can't have it.

Another factor that may sustain the demand for Catholic weddings for couples who wouldn't otherwise choose one could be family expectations.

Peregrinus

Curious, and slightly annoying, that the published figures don't break out humanist ceremonies from registry office ceremonies - they are lumped together as "civil marriages". Enquiring minds would like a breakdown!

(That is, I assume the Humanist weddings are included there. It's just possible that they are turning up in the "other religious" category on the basis that, though Humanism is not a religion, in sociological terms it's sufficiently like a religion to justify the state recognising its wedding celebrations. In the marriage statistics for Scotland, "civil weddings" just refers to registry office ceremonies, and "belief-based" or "religious, etc" weddings are broken down by denomination, with the Humanist Society of Scotland being treated as just another denomination - number two in the list, incidentally, behind the Church of Scotland and ahead of the Catholic Church. It occurs to me that the Irish statistics may be compiled in the same way.)

On edit: No, that's not happening. According to the notes at the bottom of this page "marriages celebrated according to the procedures of the Humanist Association are included in the figure for civil marriages". Still, I'd be interested to see a year-by-year breakdown of civil marriages as between humanist marriages and registrar marriages.

Peregrinus

eviltwin wrote: »

10 years ago every wedding I went to would have been in a church. I can only think of one wedding in recent years that was. None of the civil weddings were second marriages or non Catholic couples or anything like that. Attitudes are changing, its great!

You obviously hang out with a godless crowd, so . 70.5% of Irish weddings were religious in 2013.

It could be an age thing, though. On average, 70.5% of Irish weddings are civil weddings, but this varies signficantly with the age of the spouses . Rates of religious weddings are above 70% where the couple is over age 25, but under age 40. The "churchiest" weddings are in the 30-34 age group; nearly 80% are celebrated in church.

The really godless lot are not, as you might expect, the young, but the elderly. For all age groups over 45, more than 50% of weddings are civil weddings, and the rate just keeps climbing with age. 29 women married in Ireland last year at the age of 60 or over; 75.5% of those weddings were civil weddings.

That's probably at least in part because a higher proportion of weddings of those in middle and older age are weddings involving divorced people. But in general you're quite right that civil weddings are not being chosen predominantly because people can't have church weddings. 72% of civil weddings involved partners who were single and/or widowed, and so would not have been prevented from having a church wedding by questions over any previous marriage.

Shrap

Peregrinus wrote: »

Still, I'd be interested to see a year-by-year breakdown of civil marriages as between humanist marriages and registrar marriages.

I'd like to see a breakdown of how many applicants there were for Humanist marriage ceremonies and how many were actually performed. I was at two weddings last year who "went pagan" as an alternative to both the civil registry office and the massively long humanist waiting list (also, stuff was said regarding the humanist "up their arses" attitude, but that's beside the point...). You'll find a lot of the atheist marriages in the religious category under "Pagan", as they could adjust the ceremony to suit themselves and leave out most spiritual context.

eviltwin

Peregrinus wrote: »

You obviously hang out with a godless crowd, so . 70.5% of Irish weddings were religious in 2013.

It could be an age thing, though. On average, 70.5% of Irish weddings are civil weddings, but this varies signficantly with the age of the spouses . Rates of religious weddings are above 70% where the couple is over age 25, but under age 40. The "churchiest" weddings are in the 30-34 age group; nearly 80% are celebrated in church.

The really godless lot are not, as you might expect, the young, but the elderly. For all age groups over 45, more than 50% of weddings are civil weddings, and the rate just keeps climbing with age. 29 women married in Ireland last year at the age of 60 or over; 75.5% of those weddings were civil weddings.

That's probably at least in part because a higher proportion of weddings of those in middle and older age are weddings involving divorced people. But in general you're quite right that civil weddings are not being chosen predominantly because people can't have church weddings. 72% of civil weddings involved partners who were single and/or widowed, and so would not have been prevented from having a church wedding by questions over any previous marriage.

It would be interesting to see the breakdown of the civil weddings, which were done that way out of necessity and which were done through choice.

It will be interesting too to see if the change in rules regarding where a couple can have their civil wedding will up those figures. Some people don't like registry offices as they can look a bit cold, now that people can choose really personal venues it might make the church a less attractive option.

lazygal

Spiritualist Union weddings are also classed as religious - it was one of the reasons we didn't go for that option. But I have seen posters in the wedding forum say they had a very god-free ceremony. I think one of the main issues with the civil ceremony route is the Monday to Friday rule, alongside the fact that there can be no mention of any religious stuff at all, including music. A lot of people find the civil ceremony far too restrictive.
One reason a lot of people I know have a church wedding is because mammy and daddy can't imagine them not getting married in the local church. As more people raise children outside of any faith, it'll be interesting to see how heathen people like our children will deal with partners who's families might apply pressure for a church wedding!

Peregrinus

lazygal wrote: »

As more people raise children outside of any faith, it'll be interesting to see how heathen people like our children will deal with partners who's families might apply pressure for a church wedding!

That's going to depend on how effective your brainwashing techniques are!

lazygal

Peregrinus wrote: »

That's going to depend on how effective your brainwashing techniques are!

Depends on what you call brainwashing!

Peregrinus

eviltwin wrote: »

It would be interesting to see the breakdown of the civil weddings, which were done that way out of necessity and which were done through choice.

We have some information on that from the published figures. In 72% of civil weddings, both spouses were either single or widowed, so they weren't being forced into a civil wedding because questions over a prior marriage prevented them from having a (Catholic) church wedding. And of those who feel they have no choice but a civil wedding, I suspect that the existence of a prior marriage would be by far the commonest reason.

We can't assume, of course, that the remaning 28%, where one or both parties was divorced, had a civil wedding out of "necessity". In many instances it will have been their preference in any case. My guess is that the proportion of couples who would rather have had a church wedding but couldn't get one because of a prior marriage is well below 28%. But I don't have any data to back that up.

There is one further wrinkle that needs to be noted. Some proportion of those who marry in a civil ceremony will subsequently go on to have their marraiges "convalidated" in the Catholic church. This usually arises because they need to marry in a hurry - e.g. for visa reasons - or because they are in the course of getting a church annulment, which can take several years. So some of the civil weddings are in fact also going to be celebrated in church. But I suspect the numbers involved are not really significant to the bigger picture of secularisation which these statistics paint.

Peregrinus

Shrap wrote: »

. . . You'll find a lot of the atheist marriages in the religious category under "Pagan", as they could adjust the ceremony to suit themselves and leave out most spiritual context.

Yes, but sadly we don't have hard data on this. What we do have is a sharp rise in the number of marriages in the "other religious" category (i.e. religious but not Catholic, CofI, Presbyterian, Methodist or Jewish) - up from 184 in 2008 to 1,112 in 2013. Some of this is undoubtedly spiritualist weddings, but some of it is weddings in "immigrant" churches that are new to Ireland - African evangelical, Orthodox, etc. I don't think we have any way of breaking out those two categories.

As for the number of people who want a Humanist (or any other kind of) wedding but don't get it, we have no information. The Registrar General only collects data on marriages that are actually celebrated. People might enquire to a number of different potential celebrants, and some of those enquiries might be quite casual and others might be quite serious, but there's no data. People don't "apply" for a Humanist wedding; they make enquiries and if those enquiries don't turn into a firm booking there could be a number of reasons - they don't like the celebrant, they decide humanism is not for them, they can't get a celebrant for the date they want, the think the charge is more than they wish to pay, the wedding's off - it could be anything.

recedite

Can somebody enlighten me, what was the big change in 2007?
Divorce was 1996 wasn't it?

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

Can somebody enlighten me, what was the big change in 2007?
Divorce was 1996 wasn't it?

Divorce was introduced in 1996, yes. (Or maybe 1997 by the time all the legislative machinery was in place? But around then.)

What happened in 2007 was the entry into operation of a slew of amendments to the laws on celebrating and registering marriage. (The amendments had actually passed the Oireachtas in 2004, but there were supplementary regulations to be drafted, practical arrangements to be put in place, staff to be trained, celebrants to be registered . . . So it wasn't until November 2007 that they could press the "start" button.) Among other things, the changes made it easier for new and "minority" churches to celebrate legally-recognised weddings (I think the Spiritualists were major benefiticiaries of this), and liberalised the rules about where weddings could be celebrated (making, e.g. hotel weddings possible).

Boom__Boom

The CSO published some stats on weddings the week before last and I meant to post them here to update the thread as the number of people

In 2014 13,072 out of a total of 22,045 weddings took place in Roman Catholic churches - 59%

In 2015 13,072 out of a total of 22,025 weddings took place in Roman Catholic churches - 56%

In 1994 15,200 out of a total of 16,621 weddings took place in Roman Catholic churches - 91%

In 2004 15,978 out of a total of 20,979 weddings took place in Roman Catholic churches - 76%

In 2013 12,921 out of a total of 20,680 weddings took place in Roman Catholic churches - 62%

The CSO have started recording Humanist Association and Spiritualist Union of Ireland weddings separately from Civil Weddings starting in 2014.

In 2015 the figures were
Civil Marriages 6,156
Humanist Association 1,264
Spiritualist Union of Ireland 822

As a comparison way back in 1994 the total number of civil marriages was 850

It also needed to be remembered that the number cohabiting in long-term relationships probably has never been higher and all of this is with a background of an increasing population.

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/mcp/marriagesandcivilpartnerships2015/

Hotblack Desiato

At this rate more than half of weddings will be non-RC within a year or two. Pity no 2016 figures yet.

Pherekydes

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/mcp/marriagesandcivilpartnerships2016/

12140 RC weddings out of 22626 total (53.7%)