Anyone had a MIC upgrade on the ESB network?

2011

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

have i got that bit right?

Pretty much

Andy From Sligo

dingding wrote: »

That looks likee the original installation for a house that was built in the 80's.
The red and black cable, the meter and distribution board would all be typical of the time.

im not a betting man, but if I were Id say the present Hager Distribution board is not the the original one supplied when the house was built ... and some of the cabling to the CU looks like its been updated at some time and some single earth cable put in - and theres some earth bonding been on the copper pipes in the hot press, i bet that werent there when the house was built.

dingding wrote: »

The house would have met the regulations at the time I would imagine.

ah yes I dare say it was but regulations are updated for a reason, reasons of safety and to prevent fires and electrocutions so as new electrical regulations come out I think all households especially when they are past a certain age the owners should be made to upgrade electrics to new regulations or get prosecuted (you can tell by now that I am a tennant and dont own the house lol )

dingding wrote: »

At that time one ECB was used and sockets and shower wired through it.

Well thanks be to god i suppose the lights dont go through the same RCD then cause the shower might trip in the night and ye lights would go out too!

dingding wrote: »

I would say the issue is probably with the ESB supply (the distance from your transformer), however your voltage drop is within tolerances.

I cant see a case to upgrade your ESB supply.

I can - I hate how the lights dim so much when you put the electric shower on or the electric oven and hob and even the hot press bath immersion heater - even if it does fall into european standards and is acceptable voltage according the ESB networks, id rather have a bleeding smooth regulated power supply in my house!

Andy From Sligo

Bruthal wrote: »

Why is it crazy? Waiting a few more seconds to make tea? ....

Hell yeah! :eek: - mind you ive got the fast boil one cup kettle, so it only takes 50 seconds to boil our kettle ... whereas if I had 240v steadily it would take only 40 seconds as it says on the box haha, oh yeah, cant be waiting longer than I have to for my cuppa! :cool:

Risteard81

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

In my board though the shower is protected by a 32A and then the 63A Socket RCD/ELCB so by rights if the shower drew more than 32Amps it should trip the 32A MCB

You needn't be concerned that it hasn't operated the MCB despite your shower being slightly in excess of 32A, as a device to IS EN 60898 must not operate on an overload up to 1.13 times the nominal current of the device, however it must operate within one hour if the current reaches 1.45 times the nominal current of the device.

That said it is poor design if the nominal rating of the device is less than the design current of the circuit.

SpaceTime

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

207v is crazy especially if you have appliances to work between 230v-240v , i should imagine with a thing like a fat boil 3kw kettle if you ran it at 207vac then it would take longer to boil. they are running requirements set out in european standards but why cant they off their own back be more helpful close the gap anyway and offer 220v cut off point, so appliances and the like that are required to run at 220v-240v (or 250v) can run as they were manufactured to do. I dont think I have ever looked on a UK/Ireland appliance label and seen that the figure "Voltage: 207v - 250vac" ever!

I bet the pump on my shower would be better and more powerful as well if the voltage didnt drop so much when I put the shower on, ironically!

Bear in mind that Ireland historically used 220V the same as continental Europe. 230V is a bit of a bureaucratic fudge to allow the UK 240V & everyone else's 220V to be considered the same nominal voltage.

There's nothing unusual about supplies being 210 to 220V here and it's completely within Irish and European norms.

220 to 230V is actually ideal voltage. You don't want to be getting up to British style 240V as minor spikes can wipe out equipment. I've seen UK supplies sitting at 254V!!
Almost anything sold is in reality designed for 220-230v as the British system is the exception to the norm.

OP take a look at the voltage printed on your meter. If it's pre 1990s it probably says 220V 50Hz

Andy From Sligo

SpaceTime wrote: »

.... OP take a look at the voltage printed on your meter. If it's pre 1990s it probably says 220V 50Hz

Yep your right it does - 220v 50hz 20-80A

1979 Date on the meter

Andy From Sligo

so I suppose thats it now, just roll over and admit defeat and put up with the lights dimming when some heavy electrical appliance goes on then the voltage that its falling to is falling within acceptable european required guidelines so thats that. ESB Networks1 - Consumer0 ... ah well at least I do have an electrical supply even though its not always stable voltage all the time.

Risteard81

SpaceTime wrote: »

I've seen UK supplies sitting at 254V!!

That wouldn't actually be legal under the ESQCR (Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations) as the nominal voltage is 230V +10%/-6%, i.e. 216.2V - 253V.

Bruthal

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Hell yeah! :eek: - mind you ive got the fast boil one cup kettle, so it only takes 50 seconds to boil our kettle ... whereas if I had 240v steadily it would take only 40 seconds as it says on the box haha, oh yeah, cant be waiting longer than I have to for my cuppa! :cool:

Is that in winter or summer??:pac:

SpaceTime

Risteard81 wrote: »

That wouldn't actually be legal under the ESQCR (Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations) as the nominal voltage is 230V +10%/-6%, i.e. 216.2V - 253V.

ESB is designed for 230V -10% and +6% in normal conditions that's 207 to 244V

It allows contingency voltages to go as low as -15% or 195 V if there's a fault being worked on.

http://www.ceer.eu/portal/page/portal/ERGEG_HOME/ERGEG_PC/ARCHIVE1/ELECTRICITY/Voltage%20Quality/ESB.pdf

CENELEC seems to want to harmonize at 230V +/- 6% but because of costs network operators aren't too keen as in reality they're still using 220V or 240V +/-6%
230V +10% covers that for the UK
While 230V -10% covers it for everyone else, including Ireland.

It's just a bureaucratic fudge to ensure a single market for appliances.
Although almost everything in the past was rated 220-240V anyway.

The biggest issue was that the UK didn't have a harmonised voltage until the early 1970s. 200v to 250v was in use depending on where you were. Parts of Australia also nominally used 250V

It's possible Cyprus and/or Malta may use 240V nominal voltages too due to a British influences.

The rest of Europe, including Ireland, settled on 220/380V systems very early on.
Picking 240V in Britain in the early 70s while surrounded by 220V markets with the single European market on its was was pretty stupid.

Also, as far as I'm aware Northern Ireland actually standardised on 230V decades ago (before the British 240V standard emerged)

So the entire continent and Australia etc are just adopting NI standards lol
The one thing I would say though is that the 13 amp plug we use isn't really designed for 220V. I wonder sometimes if that's why you see burn marks on sockets with high power appliances.

Perhaps we should have stuck with 16 amp German plugs and sockets which were used here at one stage.

It's worth always remembering though that supply voltages here are the same as the continent, not GB despite the plugs being identical.

Andy From Sligo

SpaceTime wrote: »

ESB is designed for 230V -10% and +6% in normal conditions that's 207 to 244V

It allows contingency voltages to go as low as -15% or 195 V if there's a fault being worked on.

http://www.ceer.eu/portal/page/portal/ERGEG_HOME/ERGEG_PC/ARCHIVE1/ELECTRICITY/Voltage%20Quality/ESB.pdf

CENELEC seems to want to harmonize at 230V +/- 6% but because of costs network operators aren't too keen as in reality they're still using 220V or 240V +/-6%
230V +10% covers that for the UK
While 230V -10% covers it for everyone else, including Ireland.

It's just a bureaucratic fudge to ensure a single market for appliances.
Although almost everything in the past was rated 220-240V anyway.

The biggest issue was that the UK didn't have a harmonised voltage until the early 1970s. 200v to 250v was in use depending on where you were. Parts of Australia also nominally used 250V

It's possible Cyprus and/or Malta may use 240V nominal voltages too due to a British influences.

The rest of Europe, including Ireland, settled on 220/380V systems very early on.
Picking 240V in Britain in the early 70s while surrounded by 220V markets with the single European market on its was was pretty stupid.

Also, as far as I'm aware Northern Ireland actually standardised on 230V decades ago (before the British 240V standard emerged)

So the entire continent and Australia etc are just adopting NI standards lol
The one thing I would say though is that the 13 amp plug we use isn't really designed for 220V. I wonder sometimes if that's why you see burn marks on sockets with high power appliances.

Perhaps we should have stuck with 16 amp German plugs and sockets which were used here at one stage.

It's worth always remembering though that supply voltages here are the same as the continent, not GB despite the plugs being identical.

Very informative that - thanks
Yes and as you say about the burn marks on sockets we have a couple of sockets like that here it also makes you think what are the switches on switched sockets are rated for, i they are rated for 13a maybe the switches would have been better rated for 16a then. Never knew Ireland used to have 16a sockets and plugs at one time. I have seen nearly every consumer board in Ireland still adopt the white ceramic Bottle fuses, the last time I think the bottle fuses in the UK must have been in the 60's.

SpaceTime

That's because the UK used its own type of cartridge fuses and also horrendously dangerous looking rewirable fuses. You literally connect a piece of fuse wire between two screws and that's about as high tech as it got! They were still being installed as late as the 1980s.

The "bottle fuses" are the normal German standard Diazed and Neozed. They're used all over Europe.

Diazed/Neozed fuses are a far better solution than the UK system as they were relatively safe to use, met a strict range of standards and most importantly the electrician could put in a device in the end of the fuse holder to prevent you from using the wrong size fuses. Where as in the UK you could just pretty much whack in any type of fuse wire, or even a paper clip or a bit of twin and earth flex if you were caught short!

The switches on the sockets aren't usually the problem.

The source of heat in those BS1363 plugs is usually one of three things:

1) Loose fuse carrier (it's a crap design and the springs can be loose / badly pushed together resulting in poor contact and heat.
2) The spring contacts in the socket wear out. Because the plug's not recessed (like the continental ones) to prevent your fingers getting into contact with the pins, the plug only makes contact almost at the very tip of the pins. So, even though the pins are relatively enormous, the surface area used to connect is quite small. So, if the springs in the socket are worn out or lose, that's reduced further and the pins heat.
3) Badly wired plug or socket with loose wiring.

Andy From Sligo

SpaceTime wrote: »

That's because the UK used its own type of cartridge fuses and also horrendously dangerous looking rewirable fuses. You literally connect a piece of fuse wire between two screws and that's about as high tech as it got! They were still being installed as late as the 1980s.

The "bottle fuses" are the normal German standard Diazed and Neozed. They're used all over Europe.

Diazed/Neozed fuses are a far better solution than the UK system as they were relatively safe to use, met a strict range of standards and most importantly the electrician could put in a device in the end of the fuse holder to prevent you from using the wrong size fuses. Where as in the UK you could just pretty much whack in any type of fuse wire, or even a paper clip or a bit of twin and earth flex if you were caught short!

The switches on the sockets aren't usually the problem.

The source of heat in those BS1363 plugs is usually one of three things:

1) Loose fuse carrier (it's a crap design and the springs can be loose / badly pushed together resulting in poor contact and heat.
2) The spring contacts in the socket wear out. Because the plug's not recessed (like the continental ones) to prevent your fingers getting into contact with the pins, the plug only makes contact almost at the very tip of the pins. So, even though the pins are relatively enormous, the surface area used to connect is quite small. So, if the springs in the socket are worn out or lose, that's reduced further and the pins heat.
3) Badly wired plug or socket with loose wiring.

yep when growing up in UK i remember the rewireable brown bakelite fuses in the consumer unit - RCD's or MCB's never heard of, my grandad used to use a bit of foil from a fag packet to repair a blown fuse sometimes, am surprised he never burnt his place down!

I have had 2 sockets here in the house where the switches have failed on a double switched socket on both of them (look different makes of sockets both of them) - on one of them the switch is on all the time and you cannot switch it off (I reckon the contacts have fused together inside) and on another socket on one side you cant even press the switch on its locked in the off position, thats another reason why I was also asking if the switch contacts in these 13A sockets can handle 13a of power ok through them

Bruthal

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

, am surprised he never burnt his place down!

Even if he used a 6 inch nail as a fuse, the chance of burning the place down is not all that high.

Most electrical fires are probably caused by items other than loads big enough to blow properly sized fuses.

Risteard81

Incidentally the rewireable fuses you made reference to (BS 3036 fuse) requires derating by a factor of 0.725.

The BS 1361 cartridge fuses are HRC/HBC so aren't bad at all. However the BS 1361 Standard has since been superceded by BS 88-3.

RE: overheating of plugs with high current draw I believe a lot of that is to do with the BS 1362 fuse inside the plug as the connection to this can cause significant heating.

SpaceTime

The switches going on sockets would largely be down to just poor quality mechanism.

Get some MK sockets instead. Usually extremely good quality. They're also not much more expensive, if bought in a wholesalers.

...

There's a lot to be said for the French and German recessed 16amp plugs. It's pretty hard to overheat them unless the socket is faulty. Because they're recessed they never required pin sheathes or very deep contacts so they make excellent, solid connections.

The French version also can only go in one way (can be polarised) and has required shutters similar to our sockets for some time now.

The German type isn't polarised and usually isn't shuttered either.

Same CEE7/7 plugs fit both.

I think this stuff about BS1363 being the safest system in the world is questionable. It's definitely the most complicated and cumbersome but, I'm not sure about safe.

The one thing that horrified me about it is that most plugs are held together with a single central screw that runs from front to back. So, when you pull the plug out, all the force is on that screw's threads.

Twice, I've has a plug back come off in my hand leaving the live plug with exposed wiring stuck in the sockets.

French plugs have the screws going right through the plug from side to side so, if you pull the plug the threads of the screw bear no weight at all. You've got the screw acting like a bolt right across it.

Also a lot of British spec plugs and sockets are brittle urea formaldehyde (basically Bakelite). They crack too easily exposing live components.

Most continental countries phased that out 40 or 50+ years ago and use modern thermoplastics that are suitably heat resistant. You don't see them cracking tho.

It just seems weird to still use such an obsolete material as Bakelite in 2014.

Andy From Sligo

SpaceTime wrote: »

The switches going on sockets would largely be down to just poor quality mechanism.

Get some MK sockets instead. Usually extremely good quality. They're also not much more expensive, if bought in a wholesalers.

...

There's a lot to be said for the French and German recessed 16amp plugs. It's pretty hard to overheat them unless the socket is faulty. Because they're recessed they never required pin sheathes or very deep contacts so they make excellent, solid connections.

The French version also can only go in one way (can be polarised) and has required shutters similar to our sockets for some time now.

The German type isn't polarised and usually isn't shuttered either.

Same CEE7/7 plugs fit both.

I think this stuff about BS1363 being the safest system in the world is questionable. It's definitely the most complicated and cumbersome but, I'm not sure about safe.

The one thing that horrified me about it is that most plugs are held together with a single central screw that runs from front to back. So, when you pull the plug out, all the force is on that screw's threads.

Twice, I've has a plug back come off in my hand leaving the live plug with exposed wiring stuck in the sockets.

French plugs have the screws going right through the plug from side to side so, if you pull the plug the threads of the screw bear no weight at all. You've got the screw acting like a bolt right across it.

Also a lot of British spec plugs and sockets are brittle urea formaldehyde (basically Bakelite). They crack too easily exposing live components.

Most continental countries phased that out 40 or 50+ years ago and use modern thermoplastics that are suitably heat resistant. You don't see them cracking tho.

It just seems weird to still use such an obsolete material as Bakelite in 2014.

yeah still bakelite that is surprising i just though they were plastic now. I remember having a a couple of these 13a 'unbreakable' plastic plugs years ago with 2 screws in them , yes much better -

I worked on electrical trade wholesale counter in the late 80's in the UK for 3 years and we sold MK & Volex sockets and switches , very good quality stuff MK made - I think the ones over here you tend to get are ... G.E.T. (whoever that is) from our local wholesalers , i suppose they might have MK if asked I suppose.

SpaceTime

Risteard81 wrote: »

RE: overheating of plugs with high current draw I believe a lot of that is to do with the BS 1362 fuse inside the plug as the connection to this can cause significant heating.

It should have two blades and plug into a fitting on the plug. The fuse contacts are abysmally badly designed - it's just a springy bit of brass that can be easily deformed or misaligned.

To go back on topic though:

OP: unless you're getting voltages that are below 230V -10%, your supply is to spec. and should work just fine.

Andy From Sligo

SpaceTime wrote: »

....To go back on topic though:

OP: unless you're getting voltages that are below 230V -10%, your supply is to spec. and should work just fine.

yes, just spoilt i suppose - our previous house had very smooth electric supply, no dips or dimmed lights when other heavy stuff was on - but then again it was a lot newer built than this house we are in now

dingding

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

yes, just spoilt i suppose - our previous house had very smooth electric supply, no dips or dimmed lights when other heavy stuff was on - but then again it was a lot newer built than this house we are in now

I wound say the issue is the distance from the transformer and the capacity of the transformer. Your voltage drop is because of the transformers internal resistance and the resistance of the cable from the transformer to your house. Would cost the ESB a fortune to fix as they would have to replace the cable and the transformer. There is no case for them to incur this expense as the supply is within tolerances.

Andy From Sligo

dingding wrote: »

I wound say the issue is the distance from the transformer and the capacity of the transformer. Your voltage drop is because of the transformers internal resistance and the resistance of the cable from the transformer to your house. Would cost the ESB a fortune to fix as they would have to replace the cable and the transformer. There is no case for them to incur this expense as the supply is within tolerances.

yeah , shame its in tolerances - I have a wooden electricity pole right outside my house can ESB not put a step up transformer on that pole, or do those large grey round metal transformers you see on the pole take the voltage down instead?

dingding

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

yeah , shame its in tolerances - I have a wooden electricity pole right outside my house can ESB not put a step up transformer on that pole, or do those large grey round metal transformers you see on the pole take the voltage down instead?

Not as easy as that unfortunately. The high voltage poles are taller etc. you are talking of a lot of infrastructure there.

SpaceTime

The transformers normally take you from medium voltage (10kV, 20kV or 38kV) back down to low voltage 230/400V.

If the lines to your house are 230V/400V a pole transformer wouldn't be any use.

You should get an electrician to investigate your own system first though. It could be something to do with the voltage drop on your own wiring.

I'd start by eliminating those easy to fix issues before getting ESB Networks involved.

Andy From Sligo

ESB networks phoned my wife today on her mobile, or rather my daughter answered and took the call and said the women on the phone mentioned installing a recorder - I remember i think years ago hearing about these, think they (esb) plug in this box which has a needle/plotter on it measuring the voltage over a couple of weeks on graph paper and then look at the results and anylise it, however i suppose its all updated these days and done digitally on a device these days.

However I should imagine if my voltages are still falling in line with european standards and voltage not dropping low enough under the required threshold that ESB are required to supply I suppose nothing will be done anyway, but good that they are being accommodating anyway to see if there is a problem - i hope there is not a charge for this! :eek:

SpaceTime

Andy: What is the voltage drop actually doing to your appliances though? I mean is it having any physical effects like appliances not working?

One other and possibly cheaper solution might be to swap the electric shower for a gas or oil heated system.
There are a lot of (usually better) alternatives to electric showers.

Simplest: Gas instantaneous boiler / combi-boiler. They can usually heat a much greater flow of water than their electric counterparts.

More complex, but very good : Rapid-recovery cylinder with indirect-heated gas/oil (or wood pellet) system. The fancier boilers even have 4-pipe systems (2 connections to the boiler) and can prioritise water heating. This will generally mean you'll never be without hot water. They're cheaper to run than electricity, provide better flow, more constant pressure, more even temperature etc than an instantaneous electric shower and you can also even upgrade them to include solar or take heat from other sources like stoves, ranges and backboilers.

All in all, I think if the ESB are going to charge you a huge amount of money to upgrade a supply, all for the sake of an electric shower, I'd just look at alterantive ways of heating the shower first!

It's also possible that the tails from your house to the meter are too small, or that there's some kind of voltage drop issues on the system internally, so get that checked out first.

Andy From Sligo

SpaceTime wrote: »

Andy: What is the voltage drop actually doing to your appliances though? I mean is it having any physical effects like appliances not working?

no it not a massive impact to be honest, just lights dimming if the electric shower on or if electric bath immersion heater on or tumble drier or electric main oven ..... and most probably in my head that the kettle take longer to boil lol

The main thing that conerns me is that I dont like any dips in the electric and I want it to be smooth and levelled out like in our previous house - I suppose it stems back to the old days of electrics when i first moved to Ireland in 1991 and the electrics in Ireland were much ropier then with dips, spikes, frequent power cuts and half power , and I didnt/dont like the effect it has on sensitive electronic equipment in the house id rather they run on a smoother regular balanced voltage even if i do have them through surge protectors and even though the likes of computer power supplies and laptop chargers have their own, to a certain extent, power factor and surge protector correctors built into them - i dont believe all this 'unsmooth' voltage does anything good to these sensitive electronic equipment. - I know for a fact that someone nearer to a transformer or station will be getting regular/cleaner power supply to their house without these dips in voltage or lights dimming when putting a heavy load on and i am paying the same kind of electricity price but geting a poorer supply than them be it because they have better cables or transformers or where they are along the line - i dont think its fair, everyone should have the same benefits on the electric network.

SpaceTime wrote: »

One other and possibly cheaper solution might be to swap the electric shower for a gas or oil heated system.
There are a lot of (usually better) alternatives to electric showers.

Simplest: Gas instantaneous boiler / combi-boiler. They can usually heat a much greater flow of water than their electric counterparts.

More complex, but very good : Rapid-recovery cylinder with indirect-heated gas/oil (or wood pellet) system. The fancier boilers even have 4-pipe systems (2 connections to the boiler) and can prioritise water heating. This will generally mean you'll never be without hot water. They're cheaper to run than electricity, provide better flow, more constant pressure, more even temperature etc than an instantaneous electric shower and you can also even upgrade them to include solar or take heat from other sources like stoves, ranges and backboilers.

Nope cannot go changing any showers or central heating or plumbing because this isnt our house - we are renting.

SpaceTime wrote: »

All in all, I think if the ESB are going to charge you a huge amount of money to upgrade a supply, all for the sake of an electric shower, I'd just look at alterantive ways of heating the shower first!

It's also possible that the tails from your house to the meter are too small, or that there's some kind of voltage drop issues on the system internally, so get that checked out first.

I wonder, can tails being too small can cause that then? - i didnt know that. Well compared to or last house they look a lot smaller but that was a newer house, and it was a house, not a bungalow - and the tails in this house are Red & Black and bare earth (flat twin&Earth) looks like 10mm , so that must have been 70's/80's wiring colours wheras the ones up our previos house was brown & Blue and green&Yellow round single tails looks like at least 16mm - but i didnt know too small tails could have an impact on voltage drop.

I havent tried it yet and I woldnt like to try it just in case i burn out the small tails going from the consumer box to the meter, but I often wonder what would happen if put the 8.5kw shower on, the main oven and hob, the 3kw immersion heater, and 1400w hoover and a couple of 2kw heaters on and the tumble drier what the voltage would drop to then! - I know in normal situations you wouldnt have ever all these running all at the same time but still. seeing how the light dim when just the shower is on alone then it may indeed go below the threshold of what esb set - but I better not as I say the tails from the meter to the consumer box look no bigger than what you would wire up on an electric cooker!!:eek:

SpaceTime

You shouldn't be able to burn anything out as there's a main fuse on the consumer unit too.

Irish layout is :

[ESB Mains] ---- <ESB Fuse> ---- <Meter>

---

|

---

<Main Switch>

---

<Main Fuse>

---

<RCDs>

---

<MCBs>

---

[Final Circuits]

| = ESB cutout, installed on newer systems.

Unfortunately rural power's always a bit less stable because of the line lengths and the heavy users (milking parlours etc) near by.

If you're in an urban area in Ireland in general the power's extremely smooth.

In general though, spikes are more of an issue than anything else. Install a surge arrestor between your equipment and the mains.

We used to get horrendous issues in Boston with power due to the ageing networks there. Sometimes the lights would just flicker like crazy or dim completely. When I checked, we were occasionally getting 76 volts instead of 120!

You'll probably find that your main fuse is 63amps.