Rats and mice

CarPark2

CJhaughey wrote: »

Beer can any size.
Drill bit 3-4mm
Bucket 20l or so
Wire 3-4mm to suit the drillbit.
Peanut Butter.
Piece of wood 4"x1" or similar as a ramp.
Drill a hole in the middle of the top and bottom of the beer can
Thread wire through the hole and over the top of the bucket so it won't slip off.
Can needs to be able to spin on the wire.
(You can also drill a hole in the rim of the bucket and pass the wire through the holes.
Make 3 shallow indentations in the sides of the beer can.
Smear some peanut butter on the indentations.
Put 2-3" of water in the bucket
Lean the piece of wood up to the beercan, maybe smear some PB on the ramp.
Leave it where it can't be eaten by other animals and you should find some mice in the bottom of the bucket in the next while.

Dead or alive?
Where could I put something that big, but know that other animals won't get at it?

CJhaughey

CarPark2 wrote: »

Dead or alive?
Where could I put something that big, but know that other animals won't get at it?

If the water is deep enough and this time of year, usually dead.
In a shed in an area where dogs and cats won't lick the PB off the can.
Its not that it will kill them just stop it catching mice.

rsole1

CarPark2 wrote: »

None at all. I have been using storm, but they won't touch it.
On one of the storm blocks they scratched the blue poison away (left under the block) and ate the grain parts.

Rats suffer from a condition known as neo-phobia - ie they don't like anything that is new.

I knew I had a rat situation last week as the Jack R's alerted me to them by digging. So I nailed some Storm blocks to the fence posts near where the dogs told me they were, covered them to stop birds getting at them etc. After first night not a nibble, same with second night, not a nibble. Third night scoffed the lot. You have to be patient and not keep moving bait about. Also obviously if they have a better tasting alternative food source available to them they won't bother with Storm blocks.

junospider

I can never understand this obsession with nailing down the poison,tying it with wire,gluing it,crushing it etc so the rats wont carry it off. Let them take it away to eat in peace,they will die all the quicker.

CarPark2

rsole1 wrote: »

Rats suffer from a condition known as neo-phobia - ie they don't like anything that is new.

I knew I had a rat situation last week as the Jack R's alerted me to them by digging. So I nailed some Storm blocks to the fence posts near where the dogs told me they were, covered them to stop birds getting at them etc. After first night not a nibble, same with second night, not a nibble. Third night scoffed the lot. You have to be patient and not keep moving bait about. Also obviously if they have a better tasting alternative food source available to them they won't bother with Storm blocks.

I have had the storm blocks out for weeks. Haven't been moving it about. They initially took a little, but then no more. They haven't touched it in ages.
People always say that rats love storm, but are mice similar. I think it may be mice that I have. Do mice have less of a liking for storm?

rsole1

junospider wrote: »

I can never understand this obsession with nailing down the poison,tying it with wire,gluing it,crushing it etc so the rats wont carry it off. Let them take it away to eat in peace,they will die all the quicker.

The reason you secure the blocks is so they eat them there and then. If you put down 15 blocks loose, they will indeed transport them back to their nest where they will eat two and die. So 13 untouched blocks sit there get damp fall to mush and are wasted. At €17.95 per kilo why waste money? Also you have some sort of control of where the blocks are, ie, not half chewed and dropped on the way back to their nest and left out for birds to eat in the early morning. Hope this makes sense to you and you have a better understanding why rodenticides are secured. Even in professional bait boxes they are on spikes so as not to be removed wholesale.

Eddie B

What about crushing up storm blicks, and mixing with peanut butter! Are you still seeing signs of activity?

CJhaughey

Eddie B wrote: »

What about crushing up storm blicks, and mixing with peanut butter! Are you still seeing signs of activity?

Problem with that is that other animals can get poisoned. Cats and Dogs will lick PB and if its mixed with Poison....
Better to use it as its intended to be used.

deeksofdoom

I got a bait station and loaded it up with blocks of poison about a month ago. Checked the station today and its empty and the f'in rats been in the shed trying to eat through the lid of the container to get at the rest of the blocks of poison. There are blue coloured rat ****s all over the shelve on the shed.

I have 2 rat traps set now one in the shed and the other beside the bait station.

rsole1

deeksofdoom wrote: »

I got a bait station and loaded it up with blocks of poison about a month ago. Checked the station today and its empty and the f'in rats been in the shed trying to eat through the lid of the container to get at the rest of the blocks of poison. There are blue coloured rat ****s all over the shelve on the shed.

I have 2 rat traps set now one in the shed and the other beside the bait station.

Blue rat turds is worrying all right. Surely they haven't developed a tolerance for the second generation rodenticides here in Ireland. I was reading something about super rats in the South of England who have a tolerance to poisons. At this rate we'll be sitting outside with the 22lr and a lamp all feckin night.

CJhaughey

deeksofdoom wrote: »

I got a bait station and loaded it up with blocks of poison about a month ago. Checked the station today and its empty and the f'in rats been in the shed trying to eat through the lid of the container to get at the rest of the blocks of poison. There are blue coloured rat ****s all over the shelve on the shed.

I have 2 rat traps set now one in the shed and the other beside the bait station.

Seen the same with mice,they won't last that long though. Also try changing poison Rodilon is new and has no known resisitance in Rodents.

Eddie B

rsole1 wrote: »

Blue rat turds is worrying all right. Surely they haven't developed a tolerance for the second generation rodenticides here in Ireland. I was reading something about super rats in the South of England who have a tolerance to poisons. At this rate we'll be sitting outside with the 22lr and a lamp all feckin night.

CJhaughey wrote: »

Seen the same with mice,they won't last that long though. Also try changing poison Rodilon is new and has no known resisitance in Rodents.

Yea that's normal to see blue droppings! Takes a bit of time for the poison to do its job, and its actually a good sign, means their eating the poison! Thats great advise CJhaughey about the Rodilon!

CarPark2

Eddie B wrote: »

What about crushing up storm blicks, and mixing with peanut butter! Are you still seeing signs of activity?

Yes. They are still around. The second batch of poisoned peanut butter had much more poison, much less peanut butter and they didn't go for it. So I added some extra pb and they have lapped it up!! Just put out some more now.
I know it is hard to estimate, but roughly how many blocks of storm should I expect to go through before they are eliminated? I guess I just keep feeding it to them as long as they keep eating it?

Re: safety. I put the poisoned pb in secure bait boxes, so only animals the size of mice/rats can access it.

Vizzy

Just as a matter of interest, if a dog ate/nibbled/chewed a poisoned rat, how much damage would it do to the dog ?

rsole1

Vizzy wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest, if a dog ate/nibbled/chewed a poisoned rat, how much damage would it do to the dog ?

Probably kill it unless you got it to the vets for a dose of K1 which is the anti-dote.

Eddie B

[QUOTE=rsole1;933538wo
Probably kill it unless you got it to the vets for a dose of K1 which is the anti-dote.[/QUOTE]

No no no! That just wouldnt happen! A dog, or cat for that matter would have to digest a large quantity of legal poisons to have any major effect on it, let alone kill it!

Strychnine would do as you say, but that'sillegal!

There may be a case for secondary poisoning in smaller animals, but most legal poisons these days, are not as harmful as older forms of poison!

SeaFields

We went down the cat route also. We weren't living in the house that long and rats started appearing around the compost bin and bird feeder. We have a stream close by which didnt help matters. The bird feeder was placed in doors for awhile but the compost bin had to stay in situ for obvious reasons. I was dispatching a few every week with a .22

We got a cat, had her neutered and haven't seen one since.

rsole1

Eddie B wrote: »

No no no! That just wouldnt happen! A dog, or cat for that matter would have to digest a large quantity of legal poisons to have any major effect on it, let alone kill it!

Strychnine would do as you say, but that'sillegal!

There may be a case for secondary poisoning in smaller animals, but most legal poisons these days, are not as harmful as older forms of poison!

Yes yes yes.

http://www.petpoisonhelpline.com/2011/02/mouse-and-rat-poison-rodenticides-poisonous-to-dogs-cats/

Eddie B

rsole1 wrote: »

Yes yes yes.

http://www.petpoisonhelpline.com/2011/02/mouse-and-rat-poison-rodenticides-poisonous-to-dogs-cats/

I've read a lot on the subject, and IMO that's just scare mongering!

Ask any professional Pest Controller, and they will tell you how lethal a block of storm is to pets, well unless you have a pet rat that is! I'm no professional, so just my own opinion on the subject!

rsole1

Eddie B wrote: »

I've read a lot on the subject, and IMO that's just scare mongering!

Ask any professional Pest Controller, and they will tell you how lethal a block of storm is to pets, well unless you have a pet rat that is! I'm no professional, so just my own opinion on the subject!

You will see from this document that dogs are the exception where flocoumafen is concerned.

I was a pest controller in a past life, working for Rentokil in London.


http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=vpcthirteen

rsole1

Eddie B wrote: »

I've read a lot on the subject, and IMO that's just scare mongering!

Ask any professional Pest Controller, and they will tell you how lethal a block of storm is to pets, well unless you have a pet rat that is! I'm no professional, so just my own opinion on the subject!

Toxic doses of anticoagulant rodenticides:

Warfarin:
rats and mice - a single dose of 50-150mg/kg or a minimum of 1mg/kg/day for 6 days or more. LD50 Norway rat 58mg/kg.
ruminants - 200mg/kg/day for 12 days or more.
dog LD50 - 20-50mg/kg or a minimum of 1-5mg/kg/day for 5-15 days.
cat LD50 - 5-50mg/kg or a minimum of 1-5mg/kg/day for 5-15 days.
pigs LD50 - 1-5mg/kg or a minimum of 0.05-0.4mg/kg/day for 7 days.
rabbit LD50 - 800mg/kgfowl and horses are highly resistant, but can be poisoned by high doses.


Diphacinone:
rat LD50 - 1.5 mg/kg.
mouse LD50 - 340mg/kg.
rabbit LD50 - 35mg/kg.
dog LD50 - 3-7.5mg/kg.
cat LD50 - 15mg/kg.
pig LD50 - 150mg/kg.

Brodifacoum:
rat LD50 - 0.27mg/kg
mouse LD50 - 0.4mg/kg
rabbit LD50 - 0.29mg/kg
pig LD50 - 0.5-2mg/kg
dog LD50 0.25-3.5mg/kg.
cat LD50 - 25mg/kg
chicken LD50 - 10-100mg/kg

Bromadiolone:
rat LD50 1.25mg/kg
mouse LD50 - 1.75mg/kg
rabbit LD50 - 1mg/kg
dog LD50 - 10mg/kg
cat LD50 - 25mg/kg

Difenacoum:
rat LD50 - 1.8mg/kg
mouse LD50 - 0.8mg/kg
rabbit LD50 - 2mg/kg
pig LD50 - 80-100mg/kg.
dog LD50 - 50mg/kg
cat LD50 - 100mg/kg
chicken LD50 - 50mg/kg
sheep LD50 - 100mg/kg

Flocoumafen:
rabbit LD50 - 0.7mg/kg
pig LD50 - 60mg/kg.
dog LD50 - 0.075-0.25mg/kg
cat LD50 - >10mg/kg
sheep LD50 - >5mg/kg

Difethialone:
rabbit LD50 - 0.75mg/kg
pig LD50 - 2-3mg/kg.
dog LD50 - 5mg/kg
cat LD50 - >16mg/kg


What is LD50 and how do we use it?
The LD50 is a measurement of a chemical's toxicity based upon tests on animalsthat are performed in a laboratory setting. The LD50 is the dose of a poison requiredto kill at least 50% of animal test subjects. Thankfully, LD50 testing on animalsis going out of fashion as newer ways of testing poison and medication efficacyare developed. The LD50 data for rodenticides is available because most of the rodenticideswere invented and tested decades ago, well before LD50 testing became unpopular.

As a general rule, the minimum toxic dose required to poison an animal is said tobe approximately 10% of the LD50 dosage. So, for example, a dose of 10mg/kgis the minimum dose of difenacoum that would be needed to poison a sheep (thisis 10% of 100mg/kg). This dose will not kill all sheep (remember, 50% of the populationtested die if 100mg/kg is given), but it is enough to kill susceptible sheep.

Asmentioned before, as an owner it is always best to assume that your pet is one of the susceptibleones when it comes to poisoning. The 10% of LD50 rule gives you a handy estimate of what the minimum doses of a poison might be for a susceptible pet and gives you somewhereto start. I would always advise ringing a vet for information, however, with any case ofsuspected poisoning, even if the dose ingested seems to be very low by this calculation.

Author's note: poison concentrations in commercial products are often stated inppm (parts per million) or as a percentage (e.g. diphacinone 0.005%).
1 part per million of a chemical = 1mg/kg = 0.0001%.

Eddie B

rsole1 wrote: »

You will see from this document that dogs are the exception where flocoumafen is concerned.

I was a pest controller in a past life, working for Rentokil in London.


http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=vpcthirteen

O.k so you were a pest controller, so you know what your talking about! Its just that this very subject was brought up on another forum, and the pest controllers on the pest controll section said that a dog would have to eat alot of rats in a short period of time to badly affect, or kill a dog!

rsole1

Eddie B wrote: »

O.k so you were a pest controller, so you know what your talking about! Its just that this very subject was brought up on another forum, and the pest controllers on the pest controll section said that a dog would have to eat alot of rats in a short period of time to badly affect, or kill a dog!

Not all poisons work / react in the same way. I was answering the question specifically about dogs and Storm (flocoumafen). Vertox (brodifacoum) is as toxic to dogs as well. A 7kg dog would only have to eat 35grammes of finished product, nearly two 20 gramme blocks to receive a potentially lethal dose. If the same dog was to eat Roban (difenacoum) it would have to eat 7000grammes (350 x 20 gramme blocks) can hardly see a 7kg dog eating 7 kg of bait.

So as you can see some rodenticides are safer to non target animals than others.

CaptainAhab

I reckon the best approach is to get rid of as much food sources as possible including the compost bin and bird feeders. Set out secured bait as per guidelines (usually 3 per station and up to 5 stations adjacent to nest sites). Then monitor the stations regularly. It can take a while for them to take the bait as another poster mentioned, but I don't think using peanut butter or grains is the way to go. Also I wouldn't worry about half nibbled blocks, it is usually slugs or the rats when they are initially wary.

In addition, maybe talk to the nearby farmer and see what their approach is if any.

alan270

Do u know anyone da has some ferrets leave them run were da place we're da rats are nestin and won't stay in there for long it work for me da ferret killed 3 of um for me and never seen a rat back there any more

CarPark2

I don't want to speak too soon, but I think my problem may be resolved.
They took a good bit of the poison/peanut butter mixture and haven't been back for a few nights.
Rodent free for Christmas. Wahoo!!

Eddie B

CarPark2 wrote: »

I don't want to speak too soon, but I think my problem may be resolved.
They took a good bit of the poison/peanut butter mixture and haven't been back for a few nights.
Rodent free for Christmas. Wahoo!!

That's good news! Unfortunatly you'll have to keep poison down continuously because your so close to those farm sheds!

Only way to keep on top of them!

CarPark2

Eddie B wrote: »

That's good news! Unfortunatly you'll have to keep poison down continuously because your so close to those farm sheds!

Only way to keep on top of them!

Thanks. Ya, I'm beginning to realise that they are just a part of life where I live.
So I will need to probably abandon the idea of a compost bin, at least over the winter, and then keep poison in the bait boxes during autumn, spring and winter.

FirstinLastout

This is all you need.
No need to turn over your compost the old hard way with a spade, just knock it over every now and then and give it a bit of a roll.
Clean, secure and free from any furry vermin.