Rats and mice

CarPark2

I am being outwitted by rats sand mice!
We live beside a farm that was growing grain this summer - just moved in this spring.
There was some evidence that there had been rats around the place in previous years, and the wife was worried about it, so I bought traps and bait boxes. I fixed one bait box to each side of the house, and one near a barna shed (evidence of rats was in the shed).
I put the big black plastic traps in each bait box and another two in the shed. I used peanut butter as bait.
Nothing at all for the first few weeks. Then I noticed that the traps were empty (as if licked completely clean) but hadn't sprung. I tried the traps myself with a stick and the slightest bit if pressure seemed to set them off. So I was wondering if it could be mice that were light enough not to spring the traps.
Anyway, I was busy with other things and forgot about it.
Then two weeks ago I spotted a hole in the compost bin and a few days later the bin was empty except for clay. This must definitely be rats, as the hole was as big as a rat.
When I checked the traps I found one mouse in the shed. Some of the others had sprung but had nothing in them. They were all completely clean.
What could be eating the bait, but not getting caught? Could insects do this?

Anyway, with the cold weather, I got worried and replaced the traps with storm secure blocks. I put the blocks in the bait boxes on a steel pipe. Only one of the boxes had any activity. It was nibbled a bit, but not much, especially considering how much kitchen waste they ate from the compost bin!

In order to tempt them in, I put peanut butter at the entrance and all along, up to the bait block. In most of them the peanut butter is gone, but they haven't touched the bait.
In one of them, they seem to have scratched the bait into powder and eaten the grain that is in the block, but left the blue part (I presume that is the poison).

Today I crushed the poison and mixed with peanut butter. I smeared that inside the bait boxes.
I have two kids and I am not really comfortable crushing poison in the back yard and having it near the house (although it is in the bait boxes).

Questions
Am I dealing with rats or mice?
How could the traps be licked clean without catching anything, even though it seems to spring under very light pressure?
What should I do to outwit these b@3t@rds?

Thanks in advance for your help.

BTW, we have no cats or dogs or anything like that.

jap gt

id say forget the traps and set poison in the boxes, make sure the poison is secure and tie it down if you can to stop the rat/mouse taking away the poison, a screw through the center of the poison block is best i find

CarPark2

jap gt wrote: »

id say forget the traps and set poison in the boxes, make sure the poison is secure and tie it down if you can to stop the rat/mouse taking away the poison, a screw through the center of the poison block is best i find

Thanks. I have tried poison (storm) that was tied down in the bait boxes but they only took a tiny bit from one; in another they scratched the block to powder, eating he grain part and leaving the poison; and the others weren't touched (after two weeks).

Eddie B

You seem to be doing all the right things IMO! Keep the poison down as well as rat and mouse traps, eespecially over the winter! Cold and wet weather will draw them in!

It must be mainly mice your dealing with, seen as their cleaning the traps, without firing them off!

One little tip, try not throw out any food waste for a while, even into the compost, till you have them under control! They probably have plenty to eat so not that interested in the poison!

Might be worth while keep a mouse trap or two set inside the house over the winter also, just incase!;)

CarPark2

Eddie B wrote: »

You seem to be doing all the right things IMO! Keep the poison down as well as rat and mouse traps, eespecially over the winter! Cold and wet weather will draw them in!

It must be mainly mice your dealing with, seen as their cleaning the traps, without firing them off!

One little tip, try not throw out any food waste for a while, even into the compost, till you have them under control! They probably have plenty to eat so not that interested in the poison!

Might be worth while keep a mouse trap or two set inside the house over the winter also, just incase!;)

Thanks. Doing everything right, but not having any success! They are laughing at me, eating the peanut butter and not springing the trap, separating the poison and the grain, eating the grain, but leaving the poison.

I have stopped putting anything in the compost bin until they are gone, and maybe even for the whole winter. They will have made loads of babies after eating the contents of the compost bin!

dodderangler

I'd say it mice mate. Your doing everything right but a mouse can eat so delicately that it won't trigger the trap.
Had mouse problem in the house this year and only one or two caught in spring traps so went an got live traps and I was catching 2-3 in a day in each trap.

braddun

owls will kill both

Eddie B

CarPark2 wrote: »

Thanks. Doing everything right, but not having any success! They are laughing at me, eating the peanut butter and not springing the trap, separating the poison and the grain, eating the grain, but leaving the poison.

I have stopped putting anything in the compost bin until they are gone, and maybe even for the whole winter. They will have made loads of babies after eating the contents of the compost bin!

O.k, its mice eating the grain out of the storm, but may also be eating the poison! They may however have food stored, so might take a while for them to consume a good amount of the poison!

I think you should put down a good few mouse traps! At least you'll see the results compared to the poison!

CarPark2

Thanks for the replies.
The main reason I was thinking rats was from the size of the hole in the compost bin. It was big, much bigger than a mouse would need. Also, I didn't think that mice would be able to eat through plastic so easily.

Is it possible to have mice AND rats?

Hitchens

CarPark2 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies.
The main reason I was thinking rats was from the size of the hole in the compost bin. It was big, much bigger than a mouse would need. Also, I didn't think that mice would be able to eat through plastic so easily.

Is it possible to have mice AND rats?

rats won't tolerate mice around their patch

CarPark2

Eddie B wrote: »

O.k, its mice eating the grain out of the storm, but may also be eating the poison! !

Have you seen mice do this before?
Do they dislike the taste of the poison? They are hardly smart enough to know that the blue stuff isn't good for them!

CarPark2

Hitchens wrote: »

rats won't tolerate mice around their patch

Ok. So is it possible that the mice put the big hole in the compost bin?

Eddie B

CarPark2 wrote: »

Have you seen mice do this before?
Do they dislike the taste of the poison? They are hardly smart enough to know that the blue stuff isn't good for them!

The mice are not that smart, but they are used to feeding on grain especially due to there being grain sheds near by, (think you mentioned it in your first post) so their well used to feeding on it, but as I said earlier, they're probably eating or storing some of the poison as well!

Also, mice and rats can be present, once there's plenty of food to go around! ( grain sheds as well), so id say you have the odd rat knocking around from time to time!

Hitchens

CarPark2 wrote: »

Ok. So is it possible that the mice put the big hole in the compost bin?

could be a rat that has to forage away from the nest due to the pecking order

CarPark2

Thanks.
So concensus seems to be mainly mice with a nest in the garden (under the shed I think), but the occasional opportunistic rat.

So I need mouse traps plus poison plus patience!

My main fear is to get rid of a garden infestation before they come inside due to the cold weather.

Cork boy 55

@OP


Slugs could be taken your bait I have seen it.

rats love the "storm" poison(someone mentioned earlier) and it works

Have you seen droppings?

Hitchens

There are many variations of traps on youtube, it's worth having a looksee

CarPark2

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

@OP


Slugs could be taken your bait I have seen it.

rats love the "storm" poison(someone mentioned earlier) and it works

Have you seen droppings?

Interesting you should say that. We also have a problem with slugs. They often come into the kitchen at night and leave slime on the mat at the back door.
If they are eating the poison, is there a danger that they could spread it back into the house when they come in at night?

Cork boy 55

CarPark2 wrote: »

Interesting you should say that. We also have a problem with slugs. They often come into the kitchen at night and leave slime on the mat at the back door.
If they are eating the poison, is there a danger that they could spread it back into the house when they come in at night?

I mean eating food on the traps not the poison , slugs often carry disease normally anyway so should be kept out of house how are they getting into kitchen?

It could be something like a pygmy shrew as well they tiny , try different bait , Cat food , meat

Have you seen droppings?
big difference between mouse and rats
as per graphic mouse is about size of rice grain rat a big peanut

Cork boy 55

The first and most important thing you have to do is find out how rodents are getting into the buildings/structures. There are holes all over - missing roof vent screens, plumbing stacks, gaps between the roof and fascia board, gaps in the siding, areas where pipes go into the house, etc. etc. You will never solve a rodent problem until you find all of these openings, and seal them shut with steel/cement/wood/
You mentioned a barna shed some sort of compost bin. You got seal them up
Check your house as well of course

these outdoor structures can be trickier, because they're not as easy to seal, especially something like a barn. If you can close the entry holes, then great. If not, you'll just have to do your best to keep the building as clean as you can, to eliminate attractive factors, and maintain a trapping program

Only after you've sealed the openings shut, you should start trapping and removal
Put cat food on your rat traps.

How do you get rid of rodents in the back yard, garden, or trees - you can't really do much. Just try to keep the area as clean and clutter-free as possible. But rats are wild animals, and they live outside, and that's where they should be. You can't stop them from being out there any more than the birds.

deerhunter1

CarPark2 wrote: »

Thanks.
So concensus seems to be mainly mice with a nest in the garden (under the shed I think), but the occasional opportunistic rat.

So I need mouse traps plus poison plus patience!

My main fear is to get rid of a garden infestation before they come inside due to the cold weather.

Funny enough you mention the traps cleaned but not going off, I have a few plastic traps set continuously with mice/rat bait,a type of paste, the paste is eaten but the traps are still set,I noticed a lot of slugs about the traps and on the paste and eating it without setting them off. Mice traps.

CarPark2

deerhunter1 wrote: »

Funny enough you mention the traps cleaned but not going off, I have a few plastic traps set continuously with mice/rat bait,a type of paste, the paste is eaten but the traps are still set,I noticed a lot of slugs about the traps and on the paste and eating it without setting them off. Mice traps.

Bloody slugs. I have crushed the poison and mixed it with peanut butter (set in bait boxes), but if the slugs are eating it, does that mean that they are going to be smearing poison all over the footpath all around the house?

CJmasgrande

CarPark2 wrote: »

Bloody slugs. I have crushed the poison and mixed it with peanut butter (set in bait boxes), but if the slugs are eating it, does that mean that they are going to be smearing poison all over the footpath all around the house?

Forget your obsession with poison and traps just get yourself a couple of cats job done

Eddie B

CJmasgrande wrote: »

Forget your obsession with poison and traps just get yourself a couple of cats job done

Jasus he has enough vermin around the place!

Sorry lad, had to say it! Just hate the sight of them!

deerhunter1

Eddie B wrote: »

Jasus he has enough vermin around the place!

Sorry lad, had to say it! Just hate the sight of them!

:D

rsole1

CJmasgrande wrote: »

Forget your obsession with poison and traps just get yourself a couple of cats job done

I wouldn't give a **** for cats - had three feral cats and all they done was try to steal the Jack R's grub - it turned nasty.

Kevhog1988

id of went down the cat route too…. theres one lives in our stables that is bigger than the jack russell… we have never fed him a scrap of food except wed leave him out some remnants of dinner at xmas…. He eats completely what he catches himself… Im pretty sure he's half jaguar or something.

CarPark2

A feral cat had kittens near where we think the rats/mice are located. We thought that would be brilliant as she would need to hunt for them and want to show them how to hunt. But a few days later she was gone and the rats/mice remain. Maybe they chased her away??!!!

I tried this for the last few nights, but not sure if it worked yet. They made a hole in the compost bin and emptied it of everything except the clay. So i put a cardboard container with sugar and custard into the compost bin on night 1. The next day half of it was gone. So i left it there and the next day it was all gone. I put some more in on night 3 and the next day it was empty again. On the fourth night (last night) i put in custard + sugar + polyfilla (all mixed together). They ate about half of it. Hopefully it will have given them a nice thirst and when they drank water, they will have nice heavy (solid) bellies.

CJhaughey

Beer can any size.
Drill bit 3-4mm
Bucket 20l or so
Wire 3-4mm to suit the drillbit.
Peanut Butter.
Piece of wood 4"x1" or similar as a ramp.
Drill a hole in the middle of the top and bottom of the beer can
Thread wire through the hole and over the top of the bucket so it won't slip off.
Can needs to be able to spin on the wire.
(You can also drill a hole in the rim of the bucket and pass the wire through the holes.
Make 3 shallow indentations in the sides of the beer can.
Smear some peanut butter on the indentations.
Put 2-3" of water in the bucket
Lean the piece of wood up to the beercan, maybe smear some PB on the ramp.
Leave it where it can't be eaten by other animals and you should find some mice in the bottom of the bucket in the next while.

rsole1

CarPark2 wrote: »

A feral cat had kittens near where we think the rats/mice are located. We thought that would be brilliant as she would need to hunt for them and want to show them how to hunt. But a few days later she was gone and the rats/mice remain. Maybe they chased her away??!!!

I tried this for the last few nights, but not sure if it worked yet. They made a hole in the compost bin and emptied it of everything except the clay. So i put a cardboard container with sugar and custard into the compost bin on night 1. The next day half of it was gone. So i left it there and the next day it was all gone. I put some more in on night 3 and the next day it was empty again. On the fourth night (last night) i put in custard + sugar + polyfilla (all mixed together). They ate about half of it. Hopefully it will have given them a nice thirst and when they drank water, they will have nice heavy (solid) bellies.

Have you any scientific proof that polyfilla actually works? I use Storm Blocks which is an aggressive one feed poison, active ingredient is flocoumafen. Guaranteed to work.

CarPark2

rsole1 wrote: »

Have you any scientific proof that polyfilla actually works? I use Storm Blocks which is an aggressive one feed poison, active ingredient is flocoumafen. Guaranteed to work.

None at all. I have been using storm, but they won't touch it.
On one of the storm blocks they scratched the blue poison away (left under the block) and ate the grain parts.

CarPark2

CJhaughey wrote: »

Beer can any size.
Drill bit 3-4mm
Bucket 20l or so
Wire 3-4mm to suit the drillbit.
Peanut Butter.
Piece of wood 4"x1" or similar as a ramp.
Drill a hole in the middle of the top and bottom of the beer can
Thread wire through the hole and over the top of the bucket so it won't slip off.
Can needs to be able to spin on the wire.
(You can also drill a hole in the rim of the bucket and pass the wire through the holes.
Make 3 shallow indentations in the sides of the beer can.
Smear some peanut butter on the indentations.
Put 2-3" of water in the bucket
Lean the piece of wood up to the beercan, maybe smear some PB on the ramp.
Leave it where it can't be eaten by other animals and you should find some mice in the bottom of the bucket in the next while.

Dead or alive?
Where could I put something that big, but know that other animals won't get at it?

CJhaughey

CarPark2 wrote: »

Dead or alive?
Where could I put something that big, but know that other animals won't get at it?

If the water is deep enough and this time of year, usually dead.
In a shed in an area where dogs and cats won't lick the PB off the can.
Its not that it will kill them just stop it catching mice.

rsole1

CarPark2 wrote: »

None at all. I have been using storm, but they won't touch it.
On one of the storm blocks they scratched the blue poison away (left under the block) and ate the grain parts.

Rats suffer from a condition known as neo-phobia - ie they don't like anything that is new.

I knew I had a rat situation last week as the Jack R's alerted me to them by digging. So I nailed some Storm blocks to the fence posts near where the dogs told me they were, covered them to stop birds getting at them etc. After first night not a nibble, same with second night, not a nibble. Third night scoffed the lot. You have to be patient and not keep moving bait about. Also obviously if they have a better tasting alternative food source available to them they won't bother with Storm blocks.

junospider

I can never understand this obsession with nailing down the poison,tying it with wire,gluing it,crushing it etc so the rats wont carry it off. Let them take it away to eat in peace,they will die all the quicker.

CarPark2

rsole1 wrote: »

Rats suffer from a condition known as neo-phobia - ie they don't like anything that is new.

I knew I had a rat situation last week as the Jack R's alerted me to them by digging. So I nailed some Storm blocks to the fence posts near where the dogs told me they were, covered them to stop birds getting at them etc. After first night not a nibble, same with second night, not a nibble. Third night scoffed the lot. You have to be patient and not keep moving bait about. Also obviously if they have a better tasting alternative food source available to them they won't bother with Storm blocks.

I have had the storm blocks out for weeks. Haven't been moving it about. They initially took a little, but then no more. They haven't touched it in ages.
People always say that rats love storm, but are mice similar. I think it may be mice that I have. Do mice have less of a liking for storm?

rsole1

junospider wrote: »

I can never understand this obsession with nailing down the poison,tying it with wire,gluing it,crushing it etc so the rats wont carry it off. Let them take it away to eat in peace,they will die all the quicker.

The reason you secure the blocks is so they eat them there and then. If you put down 15 blocks loose, they will indeed transport them back to their nest where they will eat two and die. So 13 untouched blocks sit there get damp fall to mush and are wasted. At €17.95 per kilo why waste money? Also you have some sort of control of where the blocks are, ie, not half chewed and dropped on the way back to their nest and left out for birds to eat in the early morning. Hope this makes sense to you and you have a better understanding why rodenticides are secured. Even in professional bait boxes they are on spikes so as not to be removed wholesale.

Eddie B

What about crushing up storm blicks, and mixing with peanut butter! Are you still seeing signs of activity?

CJhaughey

Eddie B wrote: »

What about crushing up storm blicks, and mixing with peanut butter! Are you still seeing signs of activity?

Problem with that is that other animals can get poisoned. Cats and Dogs will lick PB and if its mixed with Poison....
Better to use it as its intended to be used.

deeksofdoom

I got a bait station and loaded it up with blocks of poison about a month ago. Checked the station today and its empty and the f'in rats been in the shed trying to eat through the lid of the container to get at the rest of the blocks of poison. There are blue coloured rat ****s all over the shelve on the shed.

I have 2 rat traps set now one in the shed and the other beside the bait station.

rsole1

deeksofdoom wrote: »

I got a bait station and loaded it up with blocks of poison about a month ago. Checked the station today and its empty and the f'in rats been in the shed trying to eat through the lid of the container to get at the rest of the blocks of poison. There are blue coloured rat ****s all over the shelve on the shed.

I have 2 rat traps set now one in the shed and the other beside the bait station.

Blue rat turds is worrying all right. Surely they haven't developed a tolerance for the second generation rodenticides here in Ireland. I was reading something about super rats in the South of England who have a tolerance to poisons. At this rate we'll be sitting outside with the 22lr and a lamp all feckin night.

CJhaughey

deeksofdoom wrote: »

I got a bait station and loaded it up with blocks of poison about a month ago. Checked the station today and its empty and the f'in rats been in the shed trying to eat through the lid of the container to get at the rest of the blocks of poison. There are blue coloured rat ****s all over the shelve on the shed.

I have 2 rat traps set now one in the shed and the other beside the bait station.

Seen the same with mice,they won't last that long though. Also try changing poison Rodilon is new and has no known resisitance in Rodents.

Eddie B

rsole1 wrote: »

Blue rat turds is worrying all right. Surely they haven't developed a tolerance for the second generation rodenticides here in Ireland. I was reading something about super rats in the South of England who have a tolerance to poisons. At this rate we'll be sitting outside with the 22lr and a lamp all feckin night.

CJhaughey wrote: »

Seen the same with mice,they won't last that long though. Also try changing poison Rodilon is new and has no known resisitance in Rodents.

Yea that's normal to see blue droppings! Takes a bit of time for the poison to do its job, and its actually a good sign, means their eating the poison! Thats great advise CJhaughey about the Rodilon!

CarPark2

Eddie B wrote: »

What about crushing up storm blicks, and mixing with peanut butter! Are you still seeing signs of activity?

Yes. They are still around. The second batch of poisoned peanut butter had much more poison, much less peanut butter and they didn't go for it. So I added some extra pb and they have lapped it up!! Just put out some more now.
I know it is hard to estimate, but roughly how many blocks of storm should I expect to go through before they are eliminated? I guess I just keep feeding it to them as long as they keep eating it?

Re: safety. I put the poisoned pb in secure bait boxes, so only animals the size of mice/rats can access it.

Vizzy

Just as a matter of interest, if a dog ate/nibbled/chewed a poisoned rat, how much damage would it do to the dog ?

rsole1

Vizzy wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest, if a dog ate/nibbled/chewed a poisoned rat, how much damage would it do to the dog ?

Probably kill it unless you got it to the vets for a dose of K1 which is the anti-dote.

Eddie B

[QUOTE=rsole1;933538wo
Probably kill it unless you got it to the vets for a dose of K1 which is the anti-dote.[/QUOTE]

No no no! That just wouldnt happen! A dog, or cat for that matter would have to digest a large quantity of legal poisons to have any major effect on it, let alone kill it!

Strychnine would do as you say, but that'sillegal!

There may be a case for secondary poisoning in smaller animals, but most legal poisons these days, are not as harmful as older forms of poison!

SeaFields

We went down the cat route also. We weren't living in the house that long and rats started appearing around the compost bin and bird feeder. We have a stream close by which didnt help matters. The bird feeder was placed in doors for awhile but the compost bin had to stay in situ for obvious reasons. I was dispatching a few every week with a .22

We got a cat, had her neutered and haven't seen one since.

rsole1

Eddie B wrote: »

No no no! That just wouldnt happen! A dog, or cat for that matter would have to digest a large quantity of legal poisons to have any major effect on it, let alone kill it!

Strychnine would do as you say, but that'sillegal!

There may be a case for secondary poisoning in smaller animals, but most legal poisons these days, are not as harmful as older forms of poison!

Yes yes yes.

http://www.petpoisonhelpline.com/2011/02/mouse-and-rat-poison-rodenticides-poisonous-to-dogs-cats/

Eddie B

rsole1 wrote: »

Yes yes yes.

http://www.petpoisonhelpline.com/2011/02/mouse-and-rat-poison-rodenticides-poisonous-to-dogs-cats/

I've read a lot on the subject, and IMO that's just scare mongering!

Ask any professional Pest Controller, and they will tell you how lethal a block of storm is to pets, well unless you have a pet rat that is! I'm no professional, so just my own opinion on the subject!

rsole1

Eddie B wrote: »

I've read a lot on the subject, and IMO that's just scare mongering!

Ask any professional Pest Controller, and they will tell you how lethal a block of storm is to pets, well unless you have a pet rat that is! I'm no professional, so just my own opinion on the subject!

You will see from this document that dogs are the exception where flocoumafen is concerned.

I was a pest controller in a past life, working for Rentokil in London.


http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=vpcthirteen