why protest over water and not USC?

jonski

the_syco wrote: »

I see the IW protesting happening during the day when people affected by the USC are working...

Plenty of USC paying people at the protests on Saturdays .

Gringo180

jonski wrote: »

Plenty of USC paying people at the protests on Saturdays .

The vast majority of them I met at the marches are in fact workers. Pretty ridiculous to say thats its only all unemployed people who are marching. I shall be taking the day off on the 10th and I know plenty others who are doing the same.

barneystinson

I've been having visions of a guy with a megaphone shouting "WHAT DO WE WANT?!" and the refrain from the crowd resulting in a massive infight and hospitalisations, as thousands of "anti-water meter" protestors realise their reasons for coming out on the streets are at total odds with each other... righties and lefties hopping placards off each other...

aliveandkicking

jonski wrote: »

I would fully agree to this as well and I would hope so would most reasonable people but we don't need Irish Water for this .

Maybe true but we would need metering and we would need a centralised billing system/agency. It's also a good idea to prioritise investment in the network on a national basis rather than a county basis. That's not a million miles away from what Irish Water is. The Local Authorities are still doing the day to day stuff (under contract from Irish Water) with Irish Water responsible for the metering program, billing and investment in infrastructure.

jonski

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Maybe true but we would need metering and we would need a centralised billing system/agency. It's also a good idea to prioritise investment in the network on a national basis rather than a county basis. That's not a million miles away from what Irish Water is. The Local Authorities are still doing the day to day stuff (under contract from Irish Water) with Irish Water responsible for the metering program, billing and investment in infrastructure.

Take your original system and tag onto the end of it the need to enshrine it in the constitution that Irish Water cannot be privatised

aliveandkicking

jonski wrote: »

Take your original system and tag onto the end of it the need to enshrine it in the constitution that Irish Water cannot be privatised

Agreed. The concept of a national utility and metering of water is a good idea. The issue has been the implementation and poor communication of the benefits of the new system. The left have hijacked the issue too with the result that a lot of people now think Irish Water = Evil.

realitykeeper

Fuxake wrote: »

Are Irish people completely mathematically challenged muppets? The biggest protests in years over a water charge which will cost a single person household €60/ annum. Yet not a word over Universal Social Charge which costs a single person on €10/hour (working 40 hours a week) approx €774/ annum.
A single person on €30,000- not exactly flush if they have to pay for their own accommodation, VHI etc- is paying €1418 per annum. If in a couple, both working, their total household bill for USC is €2836! And yet some of these people are hysterical about a water charge of €160????
What is going on here? Why isn't the energy focused on the real killers?

This is a valid point. Also, the water charges are an incentive to conserve but there is no such excuse for the usc. The universality of the usc also makes it unfair. The government was advised by top paid civil servants and it is they who are the root cause of the problems in this country.

The elite civil servants are a bit like the nobles in the court of Louis XVI. A corrupt and parasitic cohort who jealously seek parity of pay with industrialists who actually do a lot of good for this country. Until, the civil service is sacked en mass, charged with treason, imprisoned and pauperized by penalties, nothing will change.

One thing is certain though, Fine Gael will not be the party to stop the rot.

hmmm

Geuze wrote: »

I have never seen a protest against the 52% MTR on income over 32,800.

There might be no visible protests because that cohort don't throw rocks at the guards. The "protest" comes in the form of a reduced Income tax take, and in the comments that will be made behind closed doors to government ministers or IDA representatives that people are unwilling to take on extra work, or are unwilling to invest in Ireland.

Governments of any hue know that they have to keep the income tax spigot flowing. FG might like to throw out free medical cards for everyone as a budget priority, but they (and Labour, and even SF) know that the priority right now is to make sure the income tax take holds up by not dis-incentivising those paying it, and make sure that FDI continues to flow.

Axel Lamp

Because the left wing rabble don't pay USC

Labarbapostiza

Axel Lamp wrote: »

Because the left wing rabble don't pay USC

You're trolling.

Unless of course you're confused. The only group who are exempt from the USC are farmers.....That's right....The Fine Gael ranchers...... Even farm assist is exempt.

They're hardly left wing rabble. Sanctimonious right-wing blowhards to a man. It's not actual socialism that we have to subsidise their way of life. They're our betters and moral guardians. We need them more than they need us.

Phoebas

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

The only group who are exempt from the USC are farmers.....That's right....The Fine Gael ranchers......

Any chance of a source for that claim?

Labarbapostiza

Phoebas wrote: »

Any chance of a source for that claim?

Exempt from USC

Payments made by the Dept of Agriculture:
Farm Retirement Pensions
Farm Retirement Workers Pensions
Payments made by the Dept of Community Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs
Rural Social Scheme
Farm/Fish Assist

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/incomes-exempt-from-universal-social-charge.html

Phoebas

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

Exempt from USC

Payments made by the Dept of Agriculture:
Farm Retirement Pensions
Farm Retirement Workers Pensions
Payments made by the Dept of Community Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs
Rural Social Scheme
Farm/Fish Assist

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/incomes-exempt-from-universal-social-charge.html

Wait up a second - here's what you claimed.

False Claim wrote:

The only group who are exempt from the USC are farmers.....That's right....The Fine Gael ranchers......

You are dishonestly attempting to back this up by posting a subset of some income sources that are exempt, which includes some payments to farmers, but doesn't include farmers as a group.

If you look at this FAQ from the Revenue, you'll find a list of over 70 different kinds of incomes and payments that are exempt, including some that are paid to farmers, but also many that are paid to other groups.

Farmers are not exempt from USC.

Labarbapostiza

Phoebas wrote: »

Wait up a second - here's what you claimed.

You are dishonestly attempting to back this up by posting a subset of some income sources that are exempt, which includes some payments to farmers, but doesn't include farmers as a group.

If you look at this FAQ from the Revenue, you'll find a list of over 70 different kinds of incomes and payments that are exempt, including some that are paid to farmers, but also many that are paid to other groups.

Farmers are not exempt from USC.

Aw haw...Phoebas.....yes there are other groups who are exempt, but they have effectively paid their USC through cut backs........Was there any cut backs on farm payments, Phoebas?

No......In the world of Fine Gael ranchers it's "recession, what recession?"

I wouldn't begrudge them a penny. They're value for money.

Phoebas

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

The only group who are exempt from the USC are farmers.....That's right....The Fine Gael ranchers...... Even farm assist is exempt.

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

Aw haw...Phoebas.....yes there are other groups who are exempt

That u-turn was quicker than even FG could manage. :pac:

Labarbapostiza

Phoebas wrote: »

That u-turn was quicker than even FG could manage. :pac:

You're quote mining.

The fact is, in wellington boot land, they've been exempted from austerity.

Okay, there has been some austerity in not as much hole digging jobs from the council, and maybe there might have been cut backs on ditch cutting (yes, we pay farmers to cut their own ditches). Ghost estate building in agricultural areas, has collapsed for the minute too. So, there is a fall in incomes in not being able to flog bog fields to developers, for millins. But as I say, the crisis wasn't the farmers' fault, why should they have to pay for it.

But Phoebas, you're taking me up the wrong way. I believe we're not giving the ranchers enough. I'd nearly cut out one of my kidney's with a rusty pen knife, and sell it on the dark net, and give the cash to Trocaire's Christmas Fine Gael rancher appeal. Do they know it's Christmas. As Bono says; so tonight thank God it's them, instead of you.

Axel Lamp

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

The fact is, in wellington boot land, they've been exempted from austerity.

And you called me a troll. You're as blind as the proverbial blind bat in a home for blind bats.

Labarbapostiza

Axel Lamp wrote: »

And you called me a troll. You're as blind as the proverbial blind bat in a home for blind bats.

What's shameful about wellington boots?

And I will reiterate a point I have made over and over again. Farmers had nothing to do with the crisis, why should they have to suffer austerity.

In fact I hope, that after the next election, there should be one party and that party should be constituted of people from farming backgrounds. And the larger the farm the better.

The bigger the farm, the better the character. We don't want the country run by tramps, do we?

fliball123

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Unlimited amounts of free water? What about food? Is that not abasic human right too?

In my opinion every household should be granted a generous allowance of free water, i.e. enough for all daily needs - showers, washing machine, dishwasher etc. but anything over this figure should be charged for. At the moment there is no disincentive to leaving a tap running to stop pipes freezing, power hosing your driveway with drinking water, feeding a garden sprinkler system from the mains or even filling your swimming pool with tap water or no incentive whatsoever to get a dripping tap or other leaks fixed. This is simply wrong.

Food should be a human right as well, I mean in this country everyone who is legally here and who has gone about things the right way will at the very least be eligable for the dole, thats more than enough to feed you..

I agree about the water waste there should be something in there to punish people who do waste water but the way the government went about it was ridiculous, why they didnt just up the property tax over the next 10 years and say nothing about water..All they have done is annoyed the public.

dutopia

I've paid €1,721 in USC and €1,916 in PRSI so far this year. Ugh.

BoJack Horseman

Last night I paid €450,in taxes to the gov.

€390 in motor tax.
€160 in RTE tax.
Both of which are arbitrary taxes on goods I already paid a lot of tax to purchase in the first place, & in return for which I receive nothing.

Our hysteria over paying €160 for potable water & sewage services goes to show our priorities are screwed up.

zielarz

Dole recipients are the largest group exempt from USC.

Geuze

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Last night I paid €450,in taxes to the gov.

€390 in motor tax.
€160 in RTE tax.
Both of which are arbitrary taxes on goods I already paid a lot of tax to purchase in the first place, & in return for which I receive nothing.

Ah now, you do receive something.

RTE provides several radio and TV stations.

Motor tax goes to fund local roads, of which we have tens of thousands of km.

BoJack Horseman

Geuze wrote: »

RTE provides several radio and TV stations.

Don't have access to RTE tv (uk freesat via an old skybox.... occasional US content download) ..... And I haven't heard an RTE radio show in a few years.

Motor tax goes to fund local roads, of which we have tens of thousands of km.

No, motor tax yields the gov around €1bn per year.
They spent approx €460m on roads last year..... of which 0% are on roads used by me.

So as I said..... Lots of tax, nothing in return.

Which I accept.
Its just odd that paying a charge for sewage disposal is outrageous compared to motor & RTE taxes which genuinely yield nothing.

BoJack Horseman

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Don't have access to RTE tv (uk freesat via an old skybox)..... And I haven't heard an RTE radio show in a few years.



No, motor tax yields the gov around €1bn per year.
They spent approx €460m on roads last year..... of which 0% are on roads used directly by me.

So as I said..... Lots a tax, nothing in return.

The inclusion of my edit above is extremely important. The maintenance of the roads almost certainly has positive impacts on your life. Consider the stock on the shelves of your supermarket as an extremely basic example.

BoJack Horseman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The maintenance of the roads almost certainly has positive impacts on your life. Consider the stock on the shelves of your supermarket as an extremely basic example.

What maintenance of roads?

BoJack Horseman

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Last night I paid €450,in taxes to the gov.
€390 in motor tax.
...
Both of which are arbitrary taxes on goods I already paid a lot of tax to purchase in the first place, & in return for which I receive nothing.

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

..
No, motor tax yields the gov around €1bn per year.
They spent approx €460m on roads last year..... of which 0% are on roads used by me.

So as I said..... Lots of tax, nothing in return.
Which I accept.
Its just odd that paying a charge for sewage disposal is outrageous compared to motor & RTE taxes which genuinely yield nothing.

(emphasis mine)

New roads / Road works and improved infrastructure are sometimes forgotten of when totting up simple "what I pay vs what I get".

BoJack Horseman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

(emphasis mine)

New roads / Road works and improved infrastructure

Where?

You said it improves my life.

I'm wondering where?
Cos I haven't driven on new tarmac in nearly a decade.

BoJack Horseman

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Where?
You said it improves my life.
I'm wondering where?
Cos I haven't driven on new tarmac in nearly a decade.

Simplest example
Port Tunnel means deliveries from Europe are cheaper for a Tesco in Enniscrone as the reduced delivery cost / time keeps prices lower.

A person living in Enniscrone may never drive on that road once in their entire life, yet the indirect impact of it's building and maintenance exists.

These positive impacts are easily ignored as they're 'almost invisible' to the consumer.

BoJack Horseman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Simplest example
Port Tunnel means deliveries from Europe are cheaper for a Tesco in Enniscrone as the reduced delivery cost / time keeps prices lower.

Is it?

What was the delivery costs prior to the Port Tunnel vs today?