why protest over water and not USC?

Fuxake

Are Irish people completely mathematically challenged muppets? The biggest protests in years over a water charge which will cost a single person household €60/ annum. Yet not a word over Universal Social Charge which costs a single person on €10/hour (working 40 hours a week) approx €774/ annum.
A single person on €30,000- not exactly flush if they have to pay for their own accommodation, VHI etc- is paying €1418 per annum. If in a couple, both working, their total household bill for USC is €2836! And yet some of these people are hysterical about a water charge of €160????
What is going on here? Why isn't the energy focused on the real killers?

OU812

Probably because this is seen as the final straw.

It's also about more than IW now. People want the government out, IW was just the catalyst.

hatchman

Totally agree ! Usc and property tax are two extra taxes which are linked to nothing at least water charges were for something tangible ! and the cost would have been some what based on quantity of water used by end user ! The new revised system now seems like a another way of just taxing people !

GarIT

The water protesters don't pay the USC as you'd need to be employed for that.

The only people protesting against water charges are the people with the attitude "anyone with a cent more than me should be subsidising me"

duffman13

GarIT wrote: »

The water protesters don't pay the USC as you'd need to be employed for that.

Was just going to say this, a lot of people protesting don't pay tax, not all but a lot. If they abolished USC and actually charged for water by usage I'd be hugely in favour as would nearly all tax payers

relax carry on

hatchman wrote: »

Totally agree ! Usc and property tax are two extra taxes which are linked to nothing at least water charges were for something tangible ! and the cost would have been some what based on quantity of water used by end user ! The new revised system now seems like a another way of just taxing people !

The money raised from the USC and the LPT go towards the cost of running the state. They were part of the states attempt to move away from the ridiculous unsustainable reliance on money collected from our love affair with property speculation. If you waved a magic wand and took away the USC and LPT in the morning what would you do about the gap you had just created in the states finances?

View

OU812 wrote: »

It's also about more than IW now. People want the government out, IW was just the catalyst.

I am sure some people do.

Most though do respect the democratic decisions of the Oireachtas and have sufficient financial sense to realise that the harsh maths of our budgetary situation isn't going to be fundamentally altered by electing a different group of politicians instead of the current group.

GarIT

duffman13 wrote: »

Was just going to say this, a lot of people protesting don't pay tax, not all but a lot. If they abolished USC and actually charged for water by usage I'd be hugely in favour as would nearly all tax payers

The problem is we cant afford to do this, the options are increase USC by 4% at all bands and decrease social welfare by €10 per week or charge for water.

CashMoney

I've been saying this since all this IW nonsense began. Anybody in employment should be in favour of this water charge. If the water charge is abolished, it is less likely that any of the income related taxes will be reduced as the money will come from somwhere. It is the income taxes that are killing people.

Non-income related taxes benefit people in employment as they are carrying a disproportionate tax load to pay for these services. The figures in the OP just go to show ridiculous the situation is. I can understand a lot of the protesters worries as they are used to getting stuff for nothing and would like that to continue. However, working people should cop the fluck on.

Anyone for a pro IW campaign?

hfallada

OP cigarettes are a better comparison. A packetof cicigarettes are roughly €10 a packet and are about 75% tax and vat. Meaning a pack a day is nearly €2,750 in tax a year. Working classes smoke significantly more than middle classes. But I doubt you any of the water charges protestors can tell you how much a packet of cigarettes are tax.

None of the people protesting seem to know that if we don't pay for water today with water charges. Their children will be paying for a lifetime with interest charges on the national debt..

This government needs to sit down and dumb the budget to lay mans terms. Most of this people don't know that the putting debt on the national debt is deferred taxation

Tordelback

It may shock you, but some of us who pay tax believe in funding state services through progressive taxation, rather than regressive flat taxes. It's a basic principle for many of us that people should pay on the basis of ability rather than need. The present setup for water charges is the opposite of that, hence the opposition of some tax-payers to the current setup.

Incidentally, I'm not against metering water, as the conservation angle is important. I'd like to see a situation where a *decent* amount of water was supplied and paid for by general taxation, excessive consumption was charged for, and lower usage rewarded with tax credits or some other manner.

The_Honeybadger

The water charges are the final straw for many people who are just sick of new taxes and charges. The USC has been by far the most painful measure introduced since the onset of the crash but the government of the day got away with introducing it as a 'temporary' measure because the country was in a state of collective shock at the time. There is no way they'd be able to do something like that now.

Most of my friends and colleagues have no problem with paying for water, and I agree with metering as a conservation measure if nothing else. The problem is the way it was introduced and the sheer arrogance and incompetence displayed by those in charge every step of the way. Big Phil couldn't have made more of a balls of it if he had tried, and you could argue it has actually gotten worse since he left. It's hard to say where the whole thing will go from here, there will be a large cohort of the electorate who won't pay the standing charge, leaving the government with a dilemma. The whole thing could unravel if enough people refuse to pay.

imitation

There are a couple of reasons

First of all, higher USC came earlier in the cutbacks, and for the most part people realized the government were in the crapper and we had no choice.

Water charges are coming along now later, after usc, property tax, the sceptic tank tax, more tax hikes, various social welfare and tax benifit reductions.

Water charges hit everybody basically, USC affects wage earners

Many people see Water charges as double taxation, they were paid through taxes before, but now there is a new charge, at least part of which is there to get this new company up and running.

There is the element of paying for something, that people in Ireland believe is practically a human right.

Then you have this new semi-state irish water, Semi states are already seen as a cushy number by a lot of people, now you have this new one that will have to turn a profit off water charges. You also have all the annoyances like them booking corporate boxes before the company even turns a profit.

I agree with the metering and charging of water to try and get the irish mains system back in order, but the way they are going about it with Irish water is mental I think.

Sclosages

something to do with rain

CashMoney

Tordelback wrote: »

It may shock you, but some of us who pay tax believe in funding state services through progressive taxation, rather than regressive flat taxes. It's a basic principle for many of us that people should pay on the basis of ability rather than need. The present setup for water charges is the opposite of that, hence the opposition of some tax-payers to the current setup.

I'm presuming you've heard of the working poor? Working people who are getting hammered every week with high pay related taxes. Living in many cases with a poorer standard of living than non-working people. To the point where it pays not to work. Is this your idea of progressive taxation?

Chris_Heilong

in answer to the title; A push to far.

Tordelback

CashMoney wrote: »

Is this your idea of progressive taxation?

No, that would be regressive taxation, which I'm against, and which Ireland seems to revel in. Those who earn the most should pay the most in terms *proportional* to their income, those who earn the least should pay the least: the tax net should be narrowed, VAT should be reduced across the board, corporations and people earning six figures should shoulder more of the burden. It's not terribly complicated, even your average champagne socialist grasps the idea, if not the implementation.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Sheldons Brain

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Mathematically challenged indeed, there have been some strange calculations make relating to probably water bills. The problem is that the country at large doesn't seem to see any problem with people being mathematically challenged and the presentation of information by the media is designed to obscure not allow valid conclusions be drawn.

Labarbapostiza

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

They're not challenged. Stupid, ignorant, intellectually lazy, even intellectually degenerated, yes, but not challenged. You may not be aware that Ireland has a culture of anti-intellectualism. Ignorance is a virtue in Ireland.

This why "we" let stupid and ignorant builders have tens of billions to build ghost estates and other crap. Because "we" love the ignorant. "We" want to see them marching around with their pockets bursting with money. "We" want our stupid farmers shoved full of cash too. Which is why "we" give them subsidies, and make sure they have plenty of pointless civil engineering work to do on the side. Why "we" have stupid teachers in our schools. Why "we" have stupid managers in both the private and public sector. Yes, I have had senior managers who couldn't do basic primary school maths. Calculating the area of a field given the width and length would be beyond rocket science for them. Our bank managers were just as stupid and ignorant as the builders they gave billions to.

"We" love ignorance. The builders who became multi millionaires, did not have some kind of hidden intelligence. Irish society embraced them for their ignorance. Lads with their names on the side of vans. The Lads.

If you're in some cushy high paid managerial job in Ireland, where you do sweet FA, because you know sweet FA. You might think they give you that money because you have brains. No, it's more often because you don't. It's likely you have the brains of a builder; made of tissue with the consistency of something that comes out of the backside of a dog.

Every Irish village is a village of idiots who are proud to be idiots. And they could not be prouder.

The most painful tax we pay in this country, is a hidden one. It's the stupidity tax.

The Universal Stupidity Charge.

MOD: Banned 3-days.

Geuze

The USC replaced two previous levies.

For many people, they paid approx the same in USC as they paid previously in the two levies.


So for many people, the USC did not cost them any extra.


Now, it's true that as the USC kicks in earlier, approx. 10,000, then there are plenty of people who didn't pay the previous levies.

For them, the USC did cost them.

Sir Oxman

Simply, for the simple.
Opposition to this charge is primarily opposition to privatisation of a an essential human need - for the really blue simple ones, water is NOT and WILL NOT be a commodity in my country.

It does not surprise me one iota that arrogant conservatives on this board cannot comprehend this.

Ireland is no longer for sale, chaps.

Sir Oxman

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I would suggest the Oireachtas elected membership and the permanent govt may account for a substantial amount of that despite their Clongowes etc sojourn.

dar100

GarIT wrote: »

The water protesters don't pay the USC as you'd need to be employed for that.

The only people protesting against water charges are the people with the attitude "anyone with a cent more than me should be subsidising me"

Stupid statements!!

These protests are not about water alone!! You do understand the terms, cronyism, nepotism, incompetence arrogance and bare face lies.

Under no circumstances will I sit back and let a natural resource, needed to keep people alive, be privatised.

And yes I do pay tax

PeadarCo

Fuxake wrote: »

Are Irish people completely mathematically challenged muppets? The biggest protests in years over a water charge which will cost a single person household €60/ annum. Yet not a word over Universal Social Charge which costs a single person on €10/hour (working 40 hours a week) approx €774/ annum.
A single person on €30,000- not exactly flush if they have to pay for their own accommodation, VHI etc- is paying €1418 per annum. If in a couple, both working, their total household bill for USC is €2836! And yet some of these people are hysterical about a water charge of €160????
What is going on here? Why isn't the energy focused on the real killers?

It was the same with VAT the increase a year or two ago on the standard rate from 21% to 23% has cost everyone multiples of what the water charges will and not a murmur of protest.

Water is an emotive topic as most of the country hasn't paid directly for it in years. Most people don't realize or appreciate how much it costs and requires to deliver clean drinking water to homes or clean waste water. Meaning that people accept without protest undrinkable water being pumped to homes and woefully inadequate water treatment(leading to the problem of contaminated water in the first place in many cases). It is quite amazing that in the lead up to implementation that government didn't highlight any of this.

Not logical but welcome to the joys of being a politician in government. The reason main

barneystinson

dar100 wrote: »

Stupid statements!!

These protests are not about water alone!! You do understand the terms, cronyism, nepotism, incompetence arrogance and bare face lies.

Under no circumstances will I sit back and let a natural resource, needed to keep people alive, be privatised.

And yes I do pay tax

Electricity? ;-)

That is one of the stupidest arguments in all of this - they aren't privatising it. So going out on the streets to protest about something they aren't doing is a bit silly, no?

Labarbapostiza

Geuze wrote: »

Now, it's true that as the USC kicks in earlier, approx. 10,000, then there are plenty of people who didn't pay the previous levies.

For them, the USC did cost them.

No.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/income_tax/universal_social_charge.html

If your income is less than €10,036 you pay no Universal Social Charge (USC). (This limit was €4,004 in 2011.) Once your income is over this limit, you pay the relevant rate of USC on all of your income.

The first 10k is not actually exempt, that's the limit you're allowed earn before having to pay the Universal Stupidity Charge. Then the first 10k is taxed.

Farmers, and schemes giving farmers more money, were completely exempt from the USC. The agricultural political parties, Fine Gael and Fianna Fail, protect their own, and don't give damn for anyone else.

Sir Oxman

barneystinson wrote: »

Electricity? ;-)

That is one of the stupidest arguments in all of this - they aren't privatising it. So going out on the streets to protest about something they aren't doing is a bit silly, no?

Really?
You need electricity to survive?

Here: http://www.livescience.com/32320-how-long-can-a-person-survive-without-water.html

Sorry, couldn't find a link for living without electricity. (And I mean actually living not fretting about charging your iBrainfart.

Holy feck.

barneystinson

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Really?
You need electricity to survive?

Here: http://www.livescience.com/32320-how-long-can-a-person-survive-without-water.html

Sorry, couldn't find a link for living without electricity. (And I mean actually living not fretting about charging your iBrainfart.

Holy feck.

You clearly missed the ironic smiley ;-)

I was thinking more along the lines of people who are on life support machines, or depend on dialysis machines etc...:)

Sir Oxman

barneystinson wrote: »

You clearly missed the ironic smiley ;-)

I was thinking more along the lines of people who are on life support machines, or depend on dialysis machines etc...:)

Nah, I didn't.
When they introduce a semi-state primed for privatisation to charge per kwh to keep your ma alive after an op then it might be relevant.
Your main point that privatisation isn't on the agenda - obviously you have missed that completely.
Oh, Alan Kelly said it - must be okay then!

efb

Povos don't pay USC

20Cent

If you think this is only about water charges contact to the dept of education for a refund.

Tinkersbell

efb wrote: »

Povos don't pay USC

What's a 'povo'?

Fuxake

Farmers, and schemes giving farmers more money, were completely exempt from the USC. The agricultural political parties, Fine Gael and Fianna Fail, protect their own, and don't give damn for anyone else.[/QUOTE]

Errr no that's complete nonsense, where did you get that idea?

harpsman

Tordelback wrote: »

It may shock you, but some of us who pay tax believe in funding state services through progressive taxation, rather than regressive flat taxes. It's a basic principle for many of us that people should pay on the basis of ability rather than need. The present setup for water charges is the opposite of that, hence the opposition of some tax-payers to the current setup.

Incidentally, I'm not against metering water, as the conservation angle is important. I'd like to see a situation where a *decent* amount of water was supplied and paid for by general taxation, excessive consumption was charged for, and lower usage rewarded with tax credits or some other manner.

I dont understand, Whats the point in metering if its going to be paid for by taxation?

barneystinson

harpsman wrote: »

I dont understand, Whats the point in metering if its going to be paid for by taxation?

It's pretty clear in the previous post, so I think you're choosing not to understand... a decent amount paid for by taxation i.e. a reasonable allowance/credit paid for by the state, and the balance charged to the user.

dar100

barneystinson wrote: »

Electricity? ;-)

That is one of the stupidest arguments in all of this - they aren't privatising it. So going out on the streets to protest about something they aren't doing is a bit silly, no?

Seriously chap!!! Give over,

The natural resources of all countries will be privatised! You do understand that they are the only things worth money, yes?

Everything else, paper money, gold etc, are only valuable because we give them value, water, energy and air are inherently valuable, why wouldn't people try make money off them

Pappacharlie

Fuxake wrote: »

Are Irish people completely mathematically challenged muppets? The biggest protests in years over a water charge which will cost a single person household €60/ annum. Yet not a word over Universal Social Charge which costs a single person on €10/hour (working 40 hours a week) approx €774/ annum.
A single person on €30,000- not exactly flush if they have to pay for their own accommodation, VHI etc- is paying €1418 per annum. If in a couple, both working, their total household bill for USC is €2836! And yet some of these people are hysterical about a water charge of €160????
What is going on here? Why isn't the energy focused on the real killers?

Did you ever think that most of the protestors don't pay USC!!!!

barneystinson

dar100 wrote: »

Seriously chap!!! Give over,

The natural resources of all countries will be privatised! You do understand that they are the only things worth money, yes?

Everything else, paper money, gold etc, are only valuable because we give them value, water, energy and air are inherently valuable, why wouldn't people try make money off them

The fact remains, they aren't privatising it at the moment. Are they? So if that is your only gripe your protest is clearly premature.

dar100

barneystinson wrote: »

The fact remains, they aren't privatising it at the moment. Are they? So if that is your only gripe your protest is clearly premature.

It will be privatised if people weren't protesting though.

However, as I've pointed out in my first post, these protests are about so much more than water.

So making an argument about USC, people who are protesting are unemployed etc. are just attempts to create a scarecrow.

I take it you're aware of TITP and the implications this will have on society in general?

As has been seen, an Americanised model of running society does not, and will never work.

May not be private yet!! But the whole model is been geared towards this, and finally Irish people are standing up to these clowns, and their sheeple that support it.

I suggest you stop getting your information off RTE. Open your eyes chap. There is a whole not so hidden level of criminality in front of us, and this time it's not the track suit bandits:)

gandalf

Firstly it is highly simplistic to make the assumption that the Anti-IW protesters are all unemployed.

Based on the march I took part in last month the vast majority were like me and actually employed.

I can't speak for other people but I know the reasons I am against water charges via Irish water. We already pay for water through 4 different taxation streams, I had a severe issue from a data protection prospective and there is no guarantee that water will stay in the ownership of the state.

The data protection aspect has been addressed to a degree but the others haven't. Add to that the absolute cronyism and arrogance that the Government have exhibited in setting up this behemoth especially when they were supposed to be the government that cut down on quangos and cronyism.

From my point of view it is now a matter of principles. I will not be paying charges to maintain the status quo. IW as it is currently constituted is not acceptable or palatable to me and I would suspect I am not in the minority here either.

AlekSmart

gandalf wrote: »

Firstly it is highly simplistic to make the assumption that the Anti-IW protesters are all unemployed.

Based on the march I took part in last month the vast majority were like me and actually employed.

I can't speak for other people but I know the reasons I am against water charges via Irish water. We already pay for water through 4 different taxation streams, I had a severe issue from a data protection prospective and there is no guarantee that water will stay in the ownership of the state.

The data protection aspect has been addressed to a degree but the others haven't. Add to that the absolute cronyism and arrogance that the Government have exhibited in setting up this behemoth especially when they were supposed to be the government that cut down on quangos and cronyism.

From my point of view it is now a matter of principles. I will not be paying charges to maintain the status quo. IW as it is currently constituted is not acceptable or palatable to me and I would suspect I am not in the minority here either.

The wonderful thing about our Democratic system,is that it allows for you to make a stand on those principles.

You are fully entitled to NOT pay these charges and then to further this by taking the matter to the Courts,even to Europe if it so transpires.

This freedom is what,perhaps,imposes a little logic onto the situation.

Currently,many of the Activist led protests major on the "Revolution" "Uprising" and "Oppression" elements of Modern Irish society,all of which tends to be robustly challenged by the reality we experience in our daily lives,a fair amount of which is NOT spent shouting at other workers ....working.

The statistics of modern Ireland all tend to show somebody is spending again,and buying consumer goods such as Cars,Trucks, Electronics and the rest....we as a country contribute VAST amounts to the Bookmaking/Gambling Industry...and all of this on a Voluntary basis.....which tends mind-you to show a far more content society than the poverty-stricken,anger filled one which the "Activists" appear to exist within ?

Those citizens,such as Gandalf,with strongly held principles,will be facilitated to have their say,and day in the highest Courts....what more can Democracy do to satisfy the majority ?

shedweller

Like the moriarty tribunal? That went well for us the taxpayers alright.

Sheldons Brain

The Irish "left" is notable for opposing taxes, just like the "right". The "left" might argue for certain extra taxes, but if they had any integrity they would also want people to pay their taxes for the common good. In a modern welfare state everyone has to pay the likes of USC even if you think millionaires should pay more (which they do).

hatchman

All these arguments against paying for water are from people who have water supplied what about all the people who have no water supplied 'free' ! they too pay tax which currently pays for the water to be supplied to others. They including myself have to fork out every year to run pumps and maintain systems to ensure water is usable which costs far more than what the current proposals are going to be for supplied houses. If it is a basic human right why are the council not supplying me and everyone in the country with water ? I get no grands or any any form of aid for my water.

Cowtippindwarf

The whole reason behind all of these charges and us not being able to upgrade our terrible health, education and social housing systems is due to paying the troika. These debts were illegally placed on the Irish people from private bank debt.
This is not out debt and the government had no right to place it on the Irish people without referendum.
The banks should have been allowed to fail. Please have a look at this petition. You will have to copy and paste the link into your address bar and take out the spaces around the dot's and : as I am not allowed to post links.
https : //secure . avaaz . org/en/petition/Dail_Eireann_Stop_paying_all_debts_which_are_a_result_of_bailing_out_private_banks/

Icepick

GarIT wrote: »

The water protesters don't pay the USC as you'd need to be employed for that.

The only people protesting against water charges are the people with the attitude "anyone with a cent more than me should be subsidising me"

/thread

They should have cut welfare rates, including pensions, to give these people something real to protest about.

Icepick

Also, people complain about USC, but PRSI is rather low (for most) compared with other countries and what it entitles you to.

The_Honeybadger

Journal.ie claiming that the DOE have admitted the installation costs on the meters has been underestimated by over 100 million....... FFS

This further underlines the shambolic nature of this wasteful, woeful excuse of a quango and gives the opposition more ammunition to hurl at the government. There is just no defence for this sort of incompetence.

The anger is building, don't be surprised to see a GE in the first half of 2015.

ballyharpat

mickeyk wrote: »

Journal.ie claiming that the DOE have admitted the installation costs on the meters has been underestimated by over 100 million....... FFS

This further underlines the shambolic nature of this wasteful, woeful excuse of a quango and gives the opposition more ammunition to hurl at the government. There is just no defence for this sort of incompetence.

The anger is building, don't be surprised to see a GE in the first half of 2015.

No wonder they underestimated it, they did not and/or could not foresee the crap they would have to deal with, taking days on different estates, vans being burnt out, staff harrassed for doing their job, water meters being removed.....defence forces brought in to keep workers safe...

The_Honeybadger

ballyharpat wrote: »

No wonder they underestimated it, they did not and/or could not foresee the crap they would have to deal with, taking days on different estates, vans being burnt out, staff harrassed for doing their job, water meters being removed.....defence forces brought in to keep workers safe...

That's nothing to do with it. Apparently they tendered without necessary surveys being completed.