Your kid is not autistic, Your kid is an asshole, It's your fault.

FullblownRose

RaRaRasputin wrote: »

I don't see whats's so offensive about this. The only people who should rightfully be offended by this are the self-diagnosing tools who just reared little brats and like to blame it on someone/ something else.

Let's all unite and complain about everything...

Lucky you, you obviously don't have to worry about or spend time trying to correct the lack of public awareness and misjudgements.

Dravokivich

FullblownRose wrote: »

The name of the group is where the hate speech is.

The rest of that is utter nonsense. In all likelihood the 'many autistic members' are autistic when it suits them and they want to be the authority on who has autism and who is just an 'asshole'.

So it's not the image then, moving the goal posts now are we?

FullblownRose wrote: »

Lucky you, you obviously don't have to worry about or spend time trying to correct the lack of public awareness and misjudgements.

Do you know what you are arguing for or against? Because that was the point of their message. Diluting what autism is, impacts on the perception of those who actually have autism.

FullblownRose

Dravokivich wrote: »

So it's not the image then, moving the goal posts now are we?

The title, the image, the large black cover photo with the title in bold white letters..same thing, no?

Ah, if you mean the name ''child free by choice'', that's not what I mean.

Balmed Out

Dravokivich wrote: »

So it's not the image then, moving the goal posts now are we?





Do you know what you are arguing for or against? Because that was the point of their message. Diluting what autism is, impacts on the perception of those who actually have autism.

Disregarding the tiny explanation (bollix to prevent them getting closed down) is the image not hate speech?

Dravokivich

Balmed Out wrote: »

Disregarding the tiny explanation (bollix to prevent them getting closed down) is the image not hate speech?

I see frustration more so than hate. Is it hate speech to give out about homeopathy? Because that message is clearly about being frustrated by parents who are just attaching labels onto their kids, without trying to help the kid with whatever the issue is.

They aren't speaking against autism.

RaRaRasputin

FullblownRose wrote: »

Lucky you, you obviously don't have to worry about or spend time trying to correct the lack of public awareness and misjudgements.

And you don't realise that that's what they are doing too? Read their explanations, it makes it quite clear. An attention seeking header is normal practice, otherwise you don't get anyone to look at your stuff.

Balmed Out

Dravokivich wrote: »

I see frustration more so than hate. Is it hate speech to give out about homeopathy? Because that message is clearly about being frustrated by parents who are just attaching labels onto their kids, without trying to help the kid with whatever the issue is.

They aren't speaking against autism.

They clearly are. They deny the existence of a serious condition and describe parents of such children as irresponsible and the victims of the condition as asshole's.


If a banner said
"Your kid is not gay,
Your kid is an asshole,
Its your fault"
Would that be about parenting? No its hate speech. Homeopathy is not central to who someone is in the same way as sexuality, health conditions, gender, race etc.

TheChevron

Lads, it's OK, they have "many autistic members".

One eyed Jack

Balmed Out wrote: »

I think it does, it would seem to me to deny the existence of a serious condition and to describe parents of such children as irresponsible and the victims of the condition as asshole's.

That's the point they're trying to make (badly) - that some parents are simply irresponsible and instead of taking responsibility for their children's inappropriate behaviour will simply excuse their behaviour by claiming the cause is something other than just a lack of proper parenting.

They're not claiming autism isn't a legitimate condition (though they're a bit skeptical of ADD, ADHD, etc), but they're making the point that parents who claim their children's inappropriate behaviour is excusable because of a cognitive or behavioural disorder (legitimately diagnosed or otherwise) are doing a disservice to other people who have children who have been legitimately diagnosed with ASD and who do not blame their children's inappropriate behaviour on their condition.

If espousing nonsense like that isn't hate speech then what is? Throwing up a far smaller explanation to the side doesn't wash for me.

It wouldn't qualify under any legal definition of hate speech because it's not a direct comment towards persons with ASD. It's an indirect and passive aggressive commentary on people's parenting skills, or indeed as they see it, lack thereof.

Certainly their explanation doesn't make their comment any more excusable (which is why I suggested they might fail to see the irony in their own comment), but socially inappropriate commentary directed at no specific minority group doesn't meet the legal standard to qualify as hate speech.

(Boards may as well shut up shop in the morning such would be the sheer number of section 8 orders they'd have to deal with if we could claim hate speech for some of the comments in After Hours directed at parents for their children's behaviour!)

Would walking about with a "Your not gay, Your just a confused idiot*" banner with a small "*just joking" at the bottom not be considered hate speech?

Socially inappropriate commentary, but still a long way from qualifying as hate speech.

Dravokivich

Balmed Out wrote: »

They clearly are. They deny the existence of a serious condition and describe parents of such children as irresponsible and the victims of the condition as asshole's.


If a banner said
"Your kid is not gay,
Your kid is an asshole,
Its your fault"
Would that be about parenting? No its hate speech. Homeopathy is not central to who someone is in the same way as sexuality, health conditions, gender, race etc.

Take from it what ye want so. The message is clearly about parents associating labels to their children. It's not about autism, that's just a popular label that is thrown about. So sure, if the done thing is to raise a kid to think they are gay, while they had no such inclination to be so, why would you not be looking to make a comment against that?

GreeBo

FullblownRose wrote: »

It can be read as ''autism doesn't exist, it's an excuse for bad parenting'' which is hate speech, and very damaging.

Have you read the part where they state they have autistic members?
Damaging to whom? They are quite literally standing up for people with Autism.

Pacing Mule wrote: »

On the other side. I think it's incredible that people can't see that the point being made is a cover story.

The explained point itself as a stand alone and properly explained point is valid if it is being made directly to those parents it describes.

But that's not the case here. The group is a closed group for those who wish to remain childless. They have no basis, mandate or genuine reason to address a specific set of parents who are using autism as an excuse.

Instead they put up that text as their avatar / image on facebook. A group that advocates childless living has no reason to have such a statement as their image unless it is a direct dig at parents in general. We want to be child less because kids can be brats and when they do it's because parents blame autism is the vibe from that picture. Anyone who questions it is banned from the group. The group admin claims to have wide support but deletes anything that isn't support.

A cover story?
You are putting your own spin on this with your bolded "vibe".
To me your post is hate speech towards people who decide to remain childless, you think they hate children. Its nonsense.

Are you honestly trying to say that you cant have an opinion on something like childrens behaviour if you dont have children?

Pacing Mule wrote: »

And in the mean time parents who do live with and raise genuinely diagnosed kids are left looking at a message that says their kid is not autistic, he's just an asshole and it's their own fault. That is disgusting trolling at its best.

How you can't see that is beyond me.

Go read it again, they are trying to "protect" the label of autism so that its not just another term for poorly behaving children. Every bold child isnt autistic, plenty of them are labelled autistic though. As mentioned above, all that does is dilute the term to mean "****ty kids".

osarusan

I wonder what they think makes them qualified to determine when the parent(s) of an autistic child is using their autism as an excuse for what they consider bad parenting.

From their own explanation to those who they feel misunderstand them:

It is unfortunate that many of you have chosen to jump to conclusions. Surely you teach your children to get the facts before making a decision.

I wonder what facts they have at their disposal when coming to the conclusion that a parent is using autism as an excuse for poor parenting.

Balmed Out

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Socially inappropriate commentary, but still a long way from qualifying as hate speech.

All depends on your definition of hate speech. Id consider anything that is insulting towards or likely to encourage prejudice against anyone based on their sex, race, age etc including disability.

Just reading this thread and the level of prejudice is surprising, the perception of many as to the amount of parent-ally diagnosed children on the autistic spectrum is ridiculous. I hope it never visits their door as im sure they'll change their minds pretty quickly.

Balmed Out

GreeBo wrote: »

Have you read the part where they state they have autistic members?

Very true, people never listen. I mean I have a gay black friend (honestly I do, really) but yet people think im a homophobic racist just because of my opinions. I mean really!

One eyed Jack

osarusan wrote: »

I wonder what they think makes them qualified to determine when the parent(s) of an autistic child is using their autism as an excuse for what they consider bad parenting.

As a group though, they're not claiming they're all qualified to make that determination.

They're stating in a rather convoluted way that parents who make excuses for their children's inappropriate behaviour by using ASD (diagnosed or otherwise) as an excuse are simply people who take little or no responsibility for their children's irresponsible or inappropriate behaviour.

padd b1975

eviltwin wrote: »

You would think a group dedicated to being childfree would talk about something other than children.

They're as bad as the atheists.

Balmed Out

Dravokivich wrote: »

Take from it what ye want so. The message is clearly about parents associating labels to their children. It's not about autism, that's just a popular label that is thrown about. So sure, if the done thing is to raise a kid to think they are gay, while they had no such inclination to be so, why would you not be looking to make a comment against that?

Do I take it then you think the done thing is to raise children to think they are autistic when they are not?

Im afraid if you go working with autistic children or their families you will quickly realize it is a very real condition.

Just because they are no longer locked away in homes shut off from the rest of society does not mean its a new phenomenon.

Pretending that any mis-diagnosed children is anything but a very small percentage is disingenuous and dangerous and leads to the prejudicial perceptions as to the parenting of many who struggle to cope each day. Its tough enough for them without idiots who dont know what they are talking about to complain about their bold children etc.

Dravokivich

Balmed Out wrote: »

Do I take it then you think the done thing is to raise children to think they are autistic when they are not?

Im afraid if you go working with autistic children or their families you will quickly realize it is a very real condition.

Just because they are no longer locked away in homes shut off from the rest of society does not mean its a new phenomenon.

Pretending that any mis-diagnosed children is anything but a very small percentage is disingenuous and dangerous and leads to the prejudicial perceptions as to the parenting of many who struggle to cope each day. Its tough enough for them without idiots who dont know what they are talking about to complain about their bold children etc.

No one, said, it, isn't.

We've had an example from a boardsie earlier of such loose use of autism as a label. If it was as rare as you suggest, it wouldn't have been presented within the first 2 pages* of the topic.

*Assuming the setting is 40 posts per page

Pacing Mule

GreeBo wrote: »

Have you read the part where they state they have autistic members?
Damaging to whom? They are quite literally standing up for people with Autism.


A cover story?
You are putting your own spin on this with your bolded "vibe".
To me your post is hate speech towards people who decide to remain childless, you think they hate children. Its nonsense.

Are you honestly trying to say that you cant have an opinion on something like childrens behaviour if you dont have children?


Go read it again, they are trying to "protect" the label of autism so that its not just another term for poorly behaving children. Every bold child isnt autistic, plenty of them are labelled autistic though. As mentioned above, all that does is dilute the term to mean "****ty kids".

I've read the part yeah. An easy claim to make when it is hidden behind a closed group.

If they were genuinely trying to protect the label of autism why are they refusing to interact with, acknowledge or debate with those parents of legitimately diagnosed autistic children ? Anybody trying to point out that the message doesn't cover all autistic children (which is exactly what you are saying) had their comments deleted and they are blocked from the page.

I can read and reread it until the cows come home. As I already said it is about context. The point as a stand alone point is valid. If it were placed there by a group attached to autism as a message that not every bold child is autistic it would be perfectly acceptable.

I stated here already that I have no issue with the groups core concept. People who choose to remain childless - there is no harm in that. Personally I think they are slightly undermined when it comes to commenting about kids behaviour from a lack of experience point of view but again I would have no issue with comments being made.

The issue is that the message on their front page has nothing to do with deciding to remain childless. It claims to be standing up for autism but when those who are actually dealing with autism - the actual parents of genuine cases - are saying its wrong and hurtful, they are having their comments / concerns ignored and deleted. The page admin if they genuinely cared about autism would take it down.

To the original poster why do people seek out articles on the net to make themselves feel bad, its rubbish ignore it and move on by linking it and talking about it you are giving them more publicity.

There are nasty and horrible people in the world and telling them to have a bit of sensitivity when discussing a child who is autistic is not going to work.

One eyed Jack

Balmed Out wrote: »

All depends on your definition of hate speech. Id consider anything that is insulting towards or likely to encourage prejudice against anyone based on their sex, race, age etc including disability.

It doesn't really, as in it doesn't matter what our individual definitions are. The standard for what qualifies as hate speech and the only definition that would matter is the legal definition (hence why often as offensive and ignorant and hateful as we as individuals may think these pages are and want them taken down, the fact is that legally, these social media sites have their arses covered, there's nothing illegal about the page, and so it can stay up).

Just reading this thread and the level of prejudice is surprising, the perception of many as to the amount of parent-ally diagnosed children on the autistic spectrum is ridiculous. I hope it never visits their door as im sure they'll change their minds pretty quickly.

There has been no prejudice in this thread towards people with cognitive or behavioural disorders. People aren't displaying prejudice towards parents of children who have been diagnosed with ASD because the child or children have ASD.

I don't think it's ridiculous at all to suggest that the number of parents who put their children's inappropriate behaviour down to the fact that their child has a cognitive or behavioural disorder (whether clinically diagnosed or claims made by the parents) is increasing.

It's precisely because I have decades of experience in working with children and adults who have ASD that I can say that the number of people using their ASD or their child's ASD or even people claiming their child's behaviour is due to undiagnosed ASD, is increasing, and that's the point this group is making with regard to their claims that a number of their members have ASD, and they don't use it as an excuse to behave like an asshole.

(A point which depending on how you word it will indeed make you sound like an asshole!).

Their point is basically that bad parents will make excuses for their children's inappropriate behaviour, and using ASD (clinically diagnosed or otherwise) as an excuse does a disservice to people who actually are ASD. It's just worded in a very misguided, insensitive and sensationalist fashion.

It's a bit like the whole "man up" campaign against domestic violence that many people claimed was prejudiced against men because it was perceived as being aimed at all men and claiming that only men committed domestic violence against women. It's was meant to catch your attention, but it did so for all the wrong reasons and the message was misinterpreted because it was so badly worded.

Balmed Out

Dravokivich wrote: »

No one, said, it, isn't.

We've had an example from a boardsie earlier of such loose use of autism as a label. If it was as rare as you suggest, it wouldn't have been presented within the first 2 pages* of the topic.

*Assuming the setting is 40 posts per page

Yeah something being presented in the first 2 pages of a boards thread gives it some sort of credence.

A lot of people here are saying that its a very common happening for parents to self diagnose their children as being on the Autistic spectrum and to consequently allow them to run riot with terrible behavior.
This is not actually common.
20 years ago autistic children were more often then not institutionalized and a lot of people now seem to think its a new disorder and an excuse for being bold.

In my 35 years I have never ever ever heard anyone use autism as an excuse for bad behavior.

Pacing Mule

mariaalice wrote: »

To the original poster why do people seek out articles on the net to make themselves feel bad, its rubbish ignore it and move on by linking it and talking about it you are giving them more publicity.

I was made aware of it by a friend who has an autistic child. The autism community here in general are in my opinion quite rightly upset by it. How it came into their awareness in the first place I do not know.

Tordelback

Mina Full Robbery wrote: »

I have also seen parents excusing bad behaviour as being due to autism or ADHD without any proper diagnosis or psychological assessment.

I have trouble believing that any parents describe their own children as having autism without a diagnosis of same, or at the very least without being in the process of looking for a diagnosis.

GreeBo

Tordelback wrote: »

I have trouble believing that any parents describe their own children as having autism without a diagnosis of same, or at the very least without being in the process of looking for a diagnosis.

I have trouble believing that any parents would let their children roam the streets drinking and doing drugs.

Some people are just bad parents, until you accept that and dont expect everyone has the same values as your own Im sure you will have trouble believing such things.

GreeBo

Balmed Out wrote: »

Very true, people never listen. I mean I have a gay black friend (honestly I do, really) but yet people think im a homophobic racist just because of my opinions. I mean really!

My post was a direct reply to FullblownRose stating "It can be read as ''autism doesn't exist".

But strawman away there chief.

FullblownRose

Balmed Out wrote: »

Very true, people never listen. I mean I have a gay black friend (honestly I do, really) but yet people think im a homophobic racist just because of my opinions. I mean really!

I was just going to say..

Bicycle

I'm the Mum of a 14 year old boy with Asperger Syndrome.

I've read the explanation and I still find the banner offensive.

One of the reasons I find it offensive is that it fuels the stereotype that bad parenting is responsible for the behaviours of people with autism. I've been at a conference where I was told by a primary school teacher (who assumed I was at the conference in a professional role, rather than one of a parent) that as far as she was concerned autism was just bad behaviour with a label.

So lets get the record straight - people with autism are not homogenous. Parents with autism are not homogenous. There is a huge range of parenting styles and skills and a huge range of variances between individuals with autism.

And yes, there of course will be laissez faire parents who have children with autism, just like there will be laissez faire parents who have children who don't have autism.

And similarly there are parents (of children with ASDs and children without ASDS) who socialise their off-spring appropriately.

BUT, speaking as a parent of a child with Aspergers, even when you do your best, there are days when your child will have a melt down. And you can only do your best. And even if it appears to those around you who don't understand, that you are lacking in parenting skills, it is not always the case.

Generally, people with autism don't have obvious signs that they have autism. They don't use a wheelchair, they don't have a white stick, they don't have a large hearing aid, they don't have any physical characteristics that say in large letters that they have difficulties. So people assume the child is NT (neurotypical - shorthand for not being on the spectrum) and that its the parent's fault.

Also, many people with ASDs tend to suffer from Sensory Processing Disorder - basically their senses process signals differently from NTs and certain smells or sounds or even building heights can become enormously overwhelming and exaggerated and cause acute anxiety - and a level of disorientation.

Lots of us Aspie parents become avoidant. We avoid situations that can cause melt-downs. Situations that make our child and others uncomfortable. For a while we couldn't go to large crowded restaurants as a family because our son was totally overwhelmed by the noise and the numbers of people there. We never actually got to the restaurant usually, because there was a melt-down in the car outside the restaurant. We are lucky in that that phase has passed and he's now generally very comfortable in those situations.

Our son used to also find buildings with very high ceilings difficult. Luckily all he did was cling on to me when we had to be in such buildings and we'd leave as quickly as possible.

Kids with Aspergers also tend to bolt. That is run away from situations they find very stressful. And because they find communication difficult, they don't tell anyone - they just run.

We've had issues at parties, in supermarkets (yes, I was the parent with the tall 12 year old parking in a mother and child space close to the supermarket door purely because if my son did bolt in that location he wouldn't run out in front of a car) and even last July when we were in a zoo in Europe, he took a dislike to one particular primate house and ran out - my husband and myself didn't notice for a few minutes and then spent another 10 minutes chasing around like blue arsed flies calling his name - in a country where we didn't speak the language - looking for him. Thankfully we found him safe and very close to where we were. And his comment was "I didn't like the animal".

So, what I'm trying to say (in a very roundabout way) is that there are parents who try VERY hard and there are parents who don't. And autism or autistic tendencies have absolutely NOTHING to do with this.

By all means, let the facebook page make reference to crappy parenting. We've all been victims of the parents who think their kids are absolutely fabulous and that you shouldn't be annoyed if they stick their disgustingly dirty fingers all over your shirt/newspaper/laptop whatever. We all know the kids who are allowed run riot through a restaurant, tripping up serving staff and disturbing those of us (including kids with ASDs) who are enjoying our meal.

But this facebook page is falling into its own trap. It says it dislikes parents using faux diagnoses to explain a child's behaviour. Yet it is using a faux stereotype to try and explain the attitudes of its members.

On a positive note, at least, we are now discussing ASDs and perhaps debunking stereotypes. And that has to be good.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Tordelback wrote: »

I have trouble believing that any parents describe their own children as having autism without a diagnosis of same, or at the very least without being in the process of looking for a diagnosis.

Well believe it. My own niece, at a family get together last April, while her son climbed over the back of the chairs and on the tables, said nothing to the child but turned to us and said "he's a handful. He is autistic....." My wife and daughter have professional training in this field so started to discuss his assessments etc only to discover she never had him tested nor was she doing anything to help the child.
About 2 years ago a child took a hissy fit in the supermarket and was rolling on the ground screaming. Her mother smiled at the other shoppers and shrugged that she had ADHD. I know the child. I know for a fact that the child again was never sent for, let alone actually diagnosed. So believe what you like. I have an autistic child and grandchild. I know what it's all about. But we got assessments, we worked with the children and thank God they are doing very very well in life now. This thread title startled me but when reading the actual piece on FB, I get what they were , clumsily, trying to say.

Balmed Out

GreeBo wrote: »

My post was a direct reply to FullblownRose stating "It can be read as ''autism doesn't exist".

But strawman away there chief.

I think the pot is calling the kettle black there big time.