Formula 1 2014: Round 19 - Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Slutmonkey57b

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

It looks good for next year, particularly if Alonso has a competitive car, we could have a 3 or 4 horse race again.

McLaren were what, 1.5 seconds off the pace this year? And likely to not have as good an engine next year. Can't see anything but further Mercedes dominance next year tbh.

Slutmonkey57b

Gillespy wrote: »

11-5 in wins. 10-4 in head to head race finishes. Where is the evidence that Rosberg hasn't been dominated and that there isn't a gulf between them? If you have it, why not share it?

Reliability is the only reason Rosberg ever had a 29 point lead. As soon as that balanced itself out, the points table started telling the truth.

And why is that evidence of dominance, but the qualifying stat, which goes the other way in an equally dominant fashion, can be ignored? Because it's inconvenient? Because it suggests that the two drivers performances aren't as simple as stats suggest?

Your statement is "I've made a decision, then cherry picked numbers which support me, tweaked them afterwards to make it look even better, ignored those which don't, and demand you agree with me".

No thanks.

Slutmonkey57b

[Deleted User] wrote: »

McLaren were what, 1.5 seconds off the pace this year? And likely to not have as good an engine next year. Can't see anything but further Mercedes dominance next year tbh.

I have to say I'd agree. No harm in being optimistic, though!

Gillespy

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

And why is that evidence of dominance, but the qualifying stat, which goes the other way in an equally dominant fashion, can be ignored? Because it's inconvenient? Because it suggests that the two drivers performances aren't as simple as stats suggest?

Your statement is "I've made a decision, then cherry picked numbers which support me, tweaked them afterwards to make it look even better, ignored those which don't, and demand you agree with me".

No thanks.

I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone. F1 is a stats based sport and besides, I don't see how taking the stats out of it helps Rosberg? Take Hungary for example, Rosberg spend a whole stint behind JEV, had to pit to overtake him. Hamilton only needed a few corners to clear him. Rosberg came fourth that day and Hamilton third. Guess who started on pole and who started from the pitlane?

cherryghost

Sorry but ignoring everything my favourite moment of the weekend was Maldonado's car going up in flames and everyone in the garage laughing about it

zombieHanalei

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

And why is that evidence of dominance, but the qualifying stat, which goes the other way in an equally dominant fashion, can be ignored? Because it's inconvenient? Because it suggests that the two drivers performances aren't as simple as stats suggest?

Your statement is "I've made a decision, then cherry picked numbers which support me, tweaked them afterwards to make it look even better, ignored those which don't, and demand you agree with me".

No thanks.

In fairness, qualifying means nothing if you don't have the race pace to back it up. I'm pretty sure the qualification trophy is of absolutely no consolation to Nico right now. End of the day it's what a driver does in the race that matters, you don't earn points for grid positions.

Also, your assessment of Gillespy's "statement" is completely wrong. He's no more "demanding" that people agree with him than you are.

andyman

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

And why is that evidence of dominance, but the qualifying stat, which goes the other way in an equally dominant fashion, can be ignored? Because it's inconvenient? Because it suggests that the two drivers performances aren't as simple as stats suggest?

No, because qualifying means nothing if you can't take advantage of it in the race. For all of Nico's qualifying exploits, on race day there was a lot between him and Hamilton.

Going Strong

cherryghost wrote: »

Sorry but ignoring everything my favourite moment of the weekend was Maldonado's car going up in flames and everyone in the garage laughing about it

I'd say it summed up the team's relationship with Renault.

Slutmonkey57b

If we belive qualifying is unimportant, then can we also assume that Lewis's qualification stats don't diminish button's points advantage when they were teammates?

So, based on race results, button is a much better driver than Lewis, right?

No? Qualifying indicates Lewis had "raw pace" over button?

How about the argument "if you exclude" 2011 when Lewis had a meltdown and made a bunch of mistakes under pressure, the scores "would be different"? Then we're back to" if Lewis gifted button a win by making a mistake, why isn't his win in monza this year a gift from Nico?", aren't we?

All I've done is raise some pretty simple counterpoints which undermine the idea that one stat, ignoring context, doesn't tell a whole story. If that's troublesome then... I dunno, remember context?

Sunny Dayz

LIGHTNING wrote: »

It certainly was after the year we have had all you can do is laugh kinda moment. My favourite part of the weekend was Mercedes telling Rosberg to pit in and he told them he was finishing. That I did like, may even get him a few more fans.

Fair play to him. I'm not much of a Rosberg fan (the young man in the house is Hamilton's biggest fan). But I thought Mercedes just abandoned Rosberg yesterday, they didn't give a flying F about him once the first few seconds of the race had passed and they realised the championship was decided.

Tippex

Sunny Dayz wrote: »

Fair play to him. I'm not much of a Rosberg fan (the young man in the house is Hamilton's biggest fan). But I thought Mercedes just abandoned Rosberg yesterday, they didn't give a flying F about him once the first few seconds of the race had passed and they realised the championship was decided.

I reckon they knew there was little to nothing they could do without some major physical alterations. From what I heard during the coverage the radio messages they sent to rosberg (the ones that weren't broadcast) totally went against the regs of what they could tell the driver. Brundle pretty much said as much in his commentary that he expected some sort of penalty over what the pits were telling rosberg to do.

They knew that if it happened to one car it could happen to another so by not bringing rosberg in they were giving him the best chance in case something was to happen with hams car. If they had brought rosberg in to investigate the race would have been over anyway as they would not have had sufficient time to assess the situation and get him back out so he would have ended up retiring.

Slutmonkey57b

Have to agree with Tippex Mercedes have been scrupulously fair all year, even when their drivers were arguing. Rosberg made the error at the start and it was up to him to make up any gap and retake the place. Strategy was all they could and did offer.

iano.p

Just seen the race there now. Fair play to nico congratulating Lewis. Hopefully next year there is an other team in with a shot. I enjoyed this season a lot.

youreadthat

LIGHTNING wrote: »

It certainly was after the year we have had all you can do is laugh kinda moment. My favourite part of the weekend was Mercedes telling Rosberg to pit in and he told them he was finishing. That I did like, may even get him a few more fans.

Until he parks it in Monaco again. I once asked a German guy what Germans think of Rosberg; "A Fin living in Monaco". :pac: :P

Brian CivilEng

All over for another year, I want more F1 now! Congrats to Hamilton, I'm not much of a fan but I can't say he didn't deserve it.

As for the race, it kind of summed up this season for me. Lots of potential built up, but nothing came out of it. Can't believe that that's the track that gets to host the final Grand Prix of the season, really should be Japan or Brazil. Rosberg showed himself to be a class act, Massa showed what he can do with the right equipment, Button showed why he's a solid pair of hands.

My hope for next season is to have another competitive team, just so that commentators can actually correctly use the phrase "inter team battle".

abitofacomedian

abitofacomedian wrote: »

My hope for next season is to have another competitive team, just so that commentators can actually correctly use the phrase "inter team battle".

Definitely my least favorite part of any coverage.

Myrddin

abitofacomedian wrote: »

Massa showed what he can do with the right equipment

He's had that equipment all season, I really expected a lot more from him

I really liked how Rosberg handled the way events unfolded, he did get a bit irate over the radio but that's to be expected given the context. I initially thought he was going to walk past Hamilton as Hamilton was emerging from his car, but they spoke in the podium room, & it looked like an honest, if not bitter-sweet chat. Nico gave a very honest interview to the Beeb, was full of praise for Lewis, & reflected in a very dignified & human manner. He was hugely dignified, & in really difficult circumstances, shone through.

In saying all that, the right man did win the title this year. 11 wins to 5, cursed with reliability mid season (along with some errors on his own part), & still managed to win more than double the races of his nearest rival. Yes consistency is essential, but 11 to 5 is more than being consistent, it's domination. Lewis' being beaten in Quali more often is strange one, he's better on fuel, better on tires, better head to head racing ability...Nico just seems faster on Saturday. Why Nico can't convert those poles to wins is what let him down, & his conversion rate has been pretty poor. Nevertheless, it was an exciting season & certainly broke the Red Bull mould for me. We had three solid years of not just one team, but one man, dominating F1. We still have one team, but at least now we've two men fighting.

Ricciardo has been prodigious all year. His result there in the final race, considering a pit lane start, was just incredible. I whole heartedly agree with EJ that Vettel moving to Ferrari is the wrong move, but one where his hand has been forced. Vettel has to protect his own brand, & the only way to do that is move. Either that, or potentially be beaten for two seasons straight (which would ask serious questions of him).

Alonso moving from Ferrari I think is not necessarily a good or bad move, it depends what his options are. One thing for sure is, Ferrari have a mountain to climb, & he can't wait for them, he just doesn't have the time.

Button, why oh why is there a chance he could now be without a drive? He's a world class driver with a proven track record. Give him the car, & he'll deliver the points, it's as simple as that. A truly sound chap to boot by all accounts too.

It's gonna be a long few months

who_me

Scary the problems Rosberg was having with his car - his DRS was wide-open going through one slow corner. Credit to him for sticking with it and finishing.

Hope the other teams are much closer next year; for me it diminishes the championship a bit when one team is way out ahead.

T-Bird

It's a hard one with Button. Ted remarked on his age in his notebook, saying that he may only have a year or so left anyways. If he was younger I'd say that McLaren would pick him without question over the other fella. They might even go for someone else altogher (someone fresh from Toro Roso perhaps?).

Ghost Train

Not a huge difference in age between Button and Alonso, just a year and a half. As long as he's beating his teammates I think or matching the proven ones he going to be good option for team. Pity theres not a seat for him in another team with the Mercedes engine, McLaren car this year and last has been a mess and honda might have a lot of work getting up to a competitive speed

_rebelkid

It seems a Mercedes on engine power alone is about as quick as a Caterham with ERS... (L40-50)

Tippex

Ghost Train wrote: »

Not a huge difference in age between Button and Alonso, just a year and a half. As long as he's beating his teammates I think or matching the proven ones he going to be good option for team. Pity theres not a seat for him in another team with the Mercedes engine, McLaren car this year and last has been a mess and honda might have a lot of work getting up to a competitive speed

The fact that Mclaren have an interim car with the honda engine speaks volumes to me (I would imagine they were in talks prior to the season even began).
They were able to invest in the interim car to enable early testing with the engine. The amount of data that they will have had available to them will be incredible and knowing how well Honda have done in the past I would not be surprised if they are very competitive from the outset as they will have had an extra year of development that other engine providers didn't have before they actually go racing.
TBH I fully expect the honda engine to outperform the Renault's and Ferrari's next season and not to be too far off the Merc's.

Slutmonkey57b

I'm not sure where this "extra year" Honda have is coming from. They started more than 2 years later than everyone else!

Tippex

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

I'm not sure where this "extra year" Honda have is coming from. They started more than 2 years later than everyone else!

I was making a bit of an assumption that they would have been looking at this from the time that the engine regs were provided for this season. Do any of us know when they actively started the development of the engine?

mickdw

I think one would have to assume that Honda have been all over the new engine regs since they became known and as such should be as far along as anyone.
How does the testing limitation work in terms of an engine supplier not yet in the sport. I mean, it's there anything stopping Honda modifying an old f1 chassis and testing it at will with the new engine?

Slutmonkey57b

Honda only announced this in May last year. They shut down their F1 programme in 2009. That's 4 years dormancy so they will have had to rebuild the organisation while they were also planning out the engine. I believe the current regs were supposed to come in in 2013, but were pushed back a year (and went from v4's to v6's). So Mercedes and the like have been planning this out for way, way longer than Honda.

I think that Honda initially ran their v6 in an LMP2 car for a day. I don't know what the testing restrictions on engines in development are, but there's only so much the dyno tells you compared to an engine running in a car. "drivability" is something commentators have been talking about for a while and it makes sense you don't know that until someone's driving it..

Ghost Train

Tippex wrote: »

I was making a bit of an assumption that they would have been looking at this from the time that the engine regs were provided for this season. Do any of us know when they actively started the development of the engine?

I think they'll still take a while to get on top of things next year. If you compare where McLaren were compared to Force India and mainly Williams this year, engine power isn't the only thing they're a bit short on