Belmond Grand Hibernian

GM228

I think this needs it's own thread away from the MKIII North Wall thread!

Some details released today.

Trains will operate between March and October each year with about 50 departures per season, prices will be €3,200 for two days or €5,900 for four days.

Belmond hope eventually to have 1,500 customers per year as per it's Scottish operation.

Belmond say that this could be the first of many ventures in Ireland.

GM228

ClovenHoof

Wonder how many times Irish Rail management told them it 'wasn't feasible' before Belmond got on the phone to the Ministers?

GM228

From the WNXX site, 7169 at Bonnyton Depot, Kilmarnock.

http://www.wnxx.com/15/1503/100315/7169.htm

GM228

Captain Chaos

GM228 wrote: »

From the WNXX site, 7169 at Bonnyton Depot, Kilmarnock.

http://www.wnxx.com/15/1503/100315/7169.htm

GM228

Those guys have their work cut out.

Is it sitting on a B4 or B5 temp bogies?

GM228

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Those guys have their work cut out.

Is it sitting on a B4 or B5 temp bogies?

Impossible to tell if B4 or B5 but apparently they were originally modified for Mk3 type stock for Bournemouth Depot for the 442s.

GM228

GM228

The itinerary for the Belmond Grand Hibernian services have been confirmed.

The train will be operating 7 days a week (Tuesday-Monday) each season. Due to the coaches undergoing refusbishment/rebuild the 2016 season will operate from August 9th until October 17th, the 2017 season will operate from April 25th until October 16th with each subsequent season operating similar dates.

Three bookings will be available - 6 nights known as the Grand Tour of Ireland starting on the Tuesday. 4 nights known as the Legends and Loughs starting on the Tuesday also or 2 nights known as the Realm of Giants starting on the Saturday.

Itinerary:-
Tuesday-Afternoon train Heuston-Cork, Jameson Experience coach tour, evening train Cork-Charleville (night stop).

Wednesday-Early train Charleville-Cork, coach tour to Blarney and Cork English Market, afternoon train Cork-Killarney, pony and trap tour and boat tour of Lough Leane, evening train Killarney-Tralee-Limerick Junction (night stop).

Thursday-Early train Limerick Junction-Galway (via WRC), day shoping and local entertainment in Galway, evening train to Athlone (night stop).

Friday-Early train Athlone-Westport (night stop), coach trip to Ashford Castle and Connemara National Park.

Saturday-Early train Westport-Dublin, coach/walking tour of Dublin, afternoon train to Belfast Central (night stop), coach trip to Titanic Quarter.

Sunday-Early train Belfast-Portrush (night stop), coach tour to Giants Causeway and Old Bushmills Distillery.

Monday-Early train Portrush-Dublin.

Prices will be £2,290, £3,950 and £5,650 respectively for the 2, 4 and 6 night trips, all meals will be served onboard the train except the day in Galway where dinner will be served at a local restaurant.

Regarding the rolling stock, the carriages should return to Ireland mid 2016 to undergo testing, training and gauge clearance, at least two 201s will be returned to service and dedicated to this working, they will be repainted to match the carriages and be fitted for working in Northern Ireland, Belmond want the trains top and tailed which is likely to happen but there are issues with 201s and top and tailing to Portrush which may see those parts 111 hauled. There's also possibly going to be pathing issues on the WRC so we shall have to see what happens there as exact running times arn't confirmed.


Although due to start in August the train will actually be running a month earlier for evaluation/corporate/VIP/press runs.

What's people's thoughts on the itinerary and prices?

GM228

Losty Dublin

GM228 wrote: »

Prices will be £2,290, £3,950 and £5,650 respectively for the 2, 4 and 6 night trips, all meals will be served onboard the train except the day in Galway where dinner will be served at a local restaurant.


Although due to start in August the train will actually be running a month earlier for evaluation/corporate/VIP/press runs.

What's people's thoughts on the itinerary and prices?

GM228

Will they take DSP passes?

Hungerford

A few thoughts...

Firstly, the topping and tailing idea is someone's fantasy. The Grand Hibernian is due to have a rear observation car. I doubt their customers would take kindly to a view of a 201-class cabin.

Secondly, I think that the Portrush element may be subject to revision unless Belmond cross NIR's palms with considerable silver. The issues are:

* Portrush cabin will have to be switched in when the Grand Hibernian visits.
* Locomotive availability - anything beyond Ballymena would have to be 111-class hauled. There are only three of them and at least one is out of service at any one time.
* Pathing out of Portrush on a Monday morning may be problematic. In addition, any failures would screw up the morning rush hour timetable on the Derry line.

LXFlyer

Hungerford wrote: »

A few thoughts...

Firstly, the topping and tailing idea is someone's fantasy. The Grand Hibernian is due to have a rear observation car. I doubt their customers would take kindly to a view of a 201-class cabin.

Secondly, I think that the Portrush element may be subject to revision unless Belmond cross NIR's palms with considerable silver. The issues are:

* Portrush cabin will have to be switched in when the Grand Hibernian visits.
* Locomotive availability - anything beyond Ballymena would have to be 111-class hauled. There are only three of them and at least one is out of service at any one time.
* Pathing out of Portrush on a Monday morning may be problematic. In addition, any failures would screw up the morning rush hour timetable on the Derry line.

Would you not think that a major company like this would have considered these issues?


I'd find it difficult to believe that they haven't.

LXFlyer

GM228 wrote: »

The itinerary for the Belmond Grand Hibernian services have been confirmed.

The train will be operating 7 days a week (Tuesday-Monday) each season. Due to the coaches undergoing refusbishment/rebuild the 2016 season will operate from August 9th until October 17th, the 2017 season will operate from April 25th until October 16th with each subsequent season operating similar dates.

Three bookings will be available - 6 nights known as the Grand Tour of Ireland starting on the Tuesday. 4 nights known as the Legends and Loughs starting on the Tuesday also or 2 nights known as the Realm of Giants starting on the Saturday.

Itinerary:-
Tuesday-Afternoon train Heuston-Cork, Jameson Experience coach tour, evening train Cork-Charleville (night stop).

Wednesday-Early train Charleville-Cork, coach tour to Blarney and Cork English Market, afternoon train Cork-Killarney, pony and trap tour and boat tour of Lough Leane, evening train Killarney-Tralee-Limerick Junction (night stop).

Thursday-Early train Limerick Junction-Galway (via WRC), day shoping and local entertainment in Galway, evening train to Athlone (night stop).

Friday-Early train Athlone-Westport (night stop), coach trip to Ashford Castle and Connemara National Park.

Saturday-Early train Westport-Dublin, coach/walking tour of Dublin, afternoon train to Belfast Central (night stop), coach trip to Titanic Quarter.

Sunday-Early train Belfast-Portrush (night stop), coach tour to Giants Causeway and Old Bushmills Distillery.

Monday-Early train Portrush-Dublin.

Prices will be £2,290, £3,950 and £5,650 respectively for the 2, 4 and 6 night trips, all meals will be served onboard the train except the day in Galway where dinner will be served at a local restaurant.

Regarding the rolling stock, the carriages should return to Ireland mid 2016 to undergo testing, training and gauge clearance, at least two 201s will be returned to service and dedicated to this working, they will be repainted to match the carriages and be fitted for working in Northern Ireland, Belmond want the trains top and tailed which is likely to happen but there are issues with 201s and top and tailing to Portrush which may see those parts 111 hauled. There's also possibly going to be pathing issues on the WRC so we shall have to see what happens there as exact running times arn't confirmed.


Although due to start in August the train will actually be running a month earlier for evaluation/corporate/VIP/press runs.

What's people's thoughts on the itinerary and prices?

GM228

Realistically there is only one path on the WRC.


The line between Limerick and Ennis is clear between 10:39 and 11:43, so the train could leave Limerick at 11:00, cross the 10:30 ex-Galway at Ennis and then have a clear run to Athenry. Leave Athenry at 12:45, and then cross the 13:05 departure at Galway loop.

Captain Chaos

Hungerford wrote: »

A few thoughts...

Firstly, the topping and tailing idea is someone's fantasy. The Grand Hibernian is due to have a rear observation car. I doubt their customers would take kindly to a view of a 201-class cabin.
.

Please tell, what happens when a loco runs around a train? Yes, it ends up on the other end of the train, so one way or another a 201 will be coupled up to the observation coach for at least 50% of the trip either way.

Belmond are only getting one loco now anyway, that is 216.

GM228

Hungerford wrote: »

A few thoughts...

Firstly, the topping and tailing idea is someone's fantasy. The Grand Hibernian is due to have a rear observation car. I doubt their customers would take kindly to a view of a 201-class cabin.

Secondly, I think that the Portrush element may be subject to revision unless Belmond cross NIR's palms with considerable silver. The issues are:

* Portrush cabin will have to be switched in when the Grand Hibernian visits.
* Locomotive availability - anything beyond Ballymena would have to be 111-class hauled. There are only three of them and at least one is out of service at any one time.
* Pathing out of Portrush on a Monday morning may be problematic. In addition, any failures would screw up the morning rush hour timetable on the Derry line.

Portrush is 100% confirmed between Belmond and NIR, anything can happen when you pay for the privilege and Belmond will be paying both IE and NIR a fair few pounds!

Timings arn't confirmed yet but I believe a 5-6am departure ex Portrush is planned with a wait in Central before a non-stop run to Dublin behind the 08.00.

201s may be cleared for Portrush yet, otherwise the 111s will be used-but it's likely that the 201s are going to be used, remember this train will be geting it's own set of operating rules and regs so things will be allowed for this that arn't normally allowed for other trains and if it fails, it fails-any special, charter, regular can fail, that's life, a train won't not run just incase it fails!

Also top and tailing is being considered, a 201 will be at the observation car at least 50% of the time either way!

Belmond are indeed geting 216, but another 2 201s are required and Belmond want at least one more, 216 can not run 7 days a week for 6 months of the year!

GM228

Captain Chaos

So are they going to pony up the green required to get 225 and 230 back in action? Last I read about 225 that was posted online is that it's not even sitting on a set running bogies anymore. I'm sure in the short term they could lease a 201 as needed until they acquire another.

The fact that IE are now regularly top and tailing HOBs trains with 071s would indicate the whole concept is being considered since before the Belmond project went public.

I hope the concept works out as it will add a bit more variety to the network from an enthusiast point of view anyway. Just a pity general joe public won't be able to sample privately run modern loco hauled services.

There is alot of questions like where will this stock and locos be stored and maintained while out of use. Even if they payed IE to maintain them I'm sure their staff area bit rusty at looking after Mk3s after so long.

Hungerford

GM228 wrote: »

Also top and tailing is being considered, a 201 will be at the observation car at least 50% of the time either way!

That raises the question of why bother with an observation car! Why are they so focused on topping and tailing? It seems like unnecessary hassle to me.

end of the road

well at least the fact they won't be visiting the DSE means they don't have the bother of trying to operate over a certain line.

Thedarkb

I'm thinking belmond could use some of the baby GMs sitting in moyasta or one of the better examples in inchicore like 171 or 144.

Captain Chaos

Hungerford wrote: »

That raises the question of why bother with an observation car! Why are they so focused on topping and tailing? It seems like unnecessary hassle to me.

Same reason why Irish Rail top and tail HOBs trains. If there are no run around loops and no other loco is free for a shunt release, you have a second one at all times at the back of your own train.

An unneccessary hassle is have to have a second driver in a second loco follow a train to shunt release the first loco like what happens the weed spray and Sperry train since IE started to remove ran around points. Then have the first loco follow the train back to where it can round around it and couple up to it again.

Hungerford

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Same reason why Irish Rail top and tail HOBs trains. If there are no run around loops and no other loco is free for a shunt release, you have a second one at all times at the back of your own train.

If that's the reason, topping and tailing probably won't apply for the cross-border trip. There's run round facilities at Portrush.

GM228

Captain Chaos wrote: »

So are they going to pony up the green required to get 225 and 230 back in action? Last I read about 225 that was posted online is that it's not even sitting on a set running bogies anymore. I'm sure in the short term they could lease a 201 as needed until they acquire another.

The fact that IE are now regularly top and tailing HOBs trains with 071s would indicate the whole concept is being considered since before the Belmond project went public.

I hope the concept works out as it will add a bit more variety to the network from an enthusiast point of view anyway. Just a pity general joe public won't be able to sample privately run modern loco hauled services.

There is alot of questions like where will this stock and locos be stored and maintained while out of use. Even if they payed IE to maintain them I'm sure their staff area bit rusty at looking after Mk3s after so long.

OK lets clear something up, Belmond arn't leasing or acquiring any locos, IE are providing the locos and paying for any work required on them, IE will be Belmonds "haulage provider" under contract and so will need to invest to make a return on this, imagine IWT or DFDS were told to pay for the locos rebuilds required for the liners, they may not have happened. Imagine Eddie Stobart telling Tesco to buy Eddies new trucks, it simply dosn't work that way!

It may seem odd that IE have to pay an arm and a leg to get 201s back into service but it's required to honour commercial contracts and will provide a massive income to IE for years to come! Off peak you will most likely see the Belmond 201s doing other duties on liners and Mk4s etc, mind you you may well see that during the season with a dirty green 201 on the Belmond, depends on what's available and when I suppose, a blue DRS 57 often works the Northern Belle whilst the NB 57 is in maintenance or on a flask train! Not ideal but it happens!

I also believe the Belmond set may be available for private hire off peak but that's not confirmed as heavy maintenance and a deep clean will be performed off-peak.

IE will store the carriages at Inchicore where they will be maintained for Belmond, like anything staff can be trained/re-trained on them, there will be very little original items on them anyway so re-training is required either way.

Top and tailing is nothing new and has been done in many different countries for many years, it was introduced with the HOBS to reduce travel time when entering/exiting posessions mainly as a result of planning for the Cork line upgrades and has now been introduced on other lines but it is limited in where it can be done and how far, and requires a crew in each loco, this will not be the case with 201s which can still operate at 100mph if top and tailed.

I think the big idea behind top and tailing is an insurance against failures, one loco fails and your not left waiting hours for assistance, also this train will have special operating conditions where it can enter sidings etc which normally is not allowed with passenger trains to allow other trains pass and having a loco at each end will reduce the need to propel passengers into sidings.

Regarding the 141s, that will never happen as 100mph and 90mph on the Belfast line is required for this train.

GM228

savagethegoat

Kllarney Tralee Lim Junc will be interesting

end of the road

savagethegoat wrote: »

Kllarney Tralee Lim Junc will be interesting

depends on what your looking for i suppose. the route will simply be to Killarney, then on to Tralee, then non stop back to Limerick Junction. unless we get the army out to relay the north kerry. lol

Thedarkb

GM228 wrote: »

OK lets clear something up, Belmond arn't leasing or acquiring any locos, IE are providing the locos and paying for any work required on them, IE will be Belmonds "haulage provider" under contract and so will need to invest to make a return on this, imagine IWT or DFDS were told to pay for the locos rebuilds required for the liners, they may not have happened. Imagine Eddie Stobart telling Tesco to buy Eddies new trucks, it simply dosn't work that way!

It may seem odd that IE have to pay an arm and a leg to get 201s back into service but it's required to honour commercial contracts and will provide a massive income to IE for years to come! Off peak you will most likely see the Belmond 201s doing other duties on liners and Mk4s etc, mind you you may well see that during the season with a dirty green 201 on the Belmond, depends on what's available and when I suppose, a blue DRS 57 often works the Northern Belle whilst the NB 57 is in maintenance or on a flask train! Not ideal but it happens!

I also believe the Belmond set may be available for private hire off peak but that's not confirmed as heavy maintenance and a deep clean will be performed off-peak.

IE will store the carriages at Inchicore where they will be maintained for Belmond, like anything staff can be trained/re-trained on them, there will be very little original items on them anyway so re-training is required either way.

Top and tailing is nothing new and has been done in many different countries for many years, it was introduced with the HOBS to reduce travel time when entering/exiting posessions mainly as a result of planning for the Cork line upgrades and has now been introduced on other lines but it is limited in where it can be done and how far, and requires a crew in each loco, this will not be the case with 201s which can still operate at 100mph if top and tailed.

I think the big idea behind top and tailing is an insurance against failures, one loco fails and your not left waiting hours for assistance, also this train will have special operating conditions where it can enter sidings etc which normally is not allowed with passenger trains to allow other trains pass and having a loco at each end will reduce the need to propel passengers into sidings.

Regarding the 141s, that will never happen as 100mph and 90mph on the Belfast line is required for this train.

GM228

141s have a design speed of 89m.p.h, they were limited to 75 to reduce wear if i'm not mistaken, the 121s only go up to 77 due to different traction motors

EMD D57 traction motors in 121/141. D77 in 181/071. 181s are technically capable of 89mph but restricted to 75. Don't think they ever got the yaw dampers like the 071s did.

LXFlyer

Thedarkb wrote: »

I'm thinking belmond could use some of the baby GMs sitting in moyasta or one of the better examples in inchicore like 171 or 144.

Thedarkb wrote: »

141s have a design speed of 89m.p.h, they were limited to 75 to reduce wear if i'm not mistaken, the 121s only go up to 77 due to different traction motors

Karsini wrote: »

EMD D57 traction motors in 121/141. D77 in 181/071. 181s are technically capable of 89mph but restricted to 75. Don't think they ever got the yaw dampers like the 071s did.

Let's be realistic - this is a high end tour of Ireland, which happens to be on rails. It is not designed for rail enthusiasts per se.


I cannot foresee preserved Class 141/181s being used at all.


There will be (as explained above) a small pool of Class 201s to provide the traction.

lxflyer

lxflyer wrote: »

Let's be realistic - this is a high end tour of Ireland, which happens to be on rails. It is not designed for rail enthusiasts per se.


I cannot foresee preserved Class 141/181s being used at all.


There will be (as explained above) a small pool of Class 201s to provide the traction.

I didn't for one second suggest that they would be used.

LXFlyer

Karsini wrote: »

I didn't for one second suggest that they would be used.

Sorry - I just referenced the three posts mentioning them!

goingnowhere

Hungerford wrote: »

That raises the question of why bother with an observation car! Why are they so focused on topping and tailing? It seems like unnecessary hassle to me.

The 201's can do proper top and tail as they have the correct trail valves. NIR's 111's should have these fitted as well from the aborted DBSO project. Only question is will the train be 27 AAR wired, if not you can't have the rear loco running unless staffed and since the guard needs to mind the EGV. If the alarm bell goes off it won't be noticed.

Since Belmond didn't take one of the 6100 DVT's top and tail becomes a requirement to ensure quick turnarounds at stations, several of which the train isn't stopping at, e.g, Limerick, Athenry. Others like Tralee and Galway have limited or awkward run around facilities but not at a platform. Also saves a lot of hassle in coupling and uncoupling and brake tests.

Boyne Viaduct could be fun with a 201 either end of a train.

BeardySi

goingnowhere wrote: »

Boyne Viaduct could be fun with a 201 either end of a train.

How come?

Captain Chaos

Treadhead wrote: »

How come?

The axle load limit of the viaduct is just around the load of a single 201, having 2 run over the same area within about 300 meters will be a cause for concern over the long term for the Per Way department.

GM228

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The axle load limit of the viaduct is just around the load of a single 201, having 2 run over the same area within about 300 meters will be a cause for concern over the long term for the Per Way department.

You are incorrect, although it dosn't actually occur the Belfast line was cleared a few years ago for double heading of 071 and 201s including the viaduct.

GM228

Thedarkb

GM228 wrote: »

You are incorrect, although it dosn't actually occur the Belfast line was cleared a few years ago for double heading of 071 and 201s including the viaduct.

GM228

I recall there was a railtour where the 2 NIR 201s did the whole thing double headed, I think that went over the boyne viaduct. and I remember reading that when they were transferring some locomotives up north some years ago, they had to space them out with flat wagons.

Captain Chaos

They took one of the 201s off before Dundalk, around Newry or Lisburn. It never made it to the IE network double headded.

208 did haul 209 north when it was delivered or was it the other way round, anyway it was not double headding as only the lead loco was powered.

GM228

Captain Chaos wrote: »

They took one of the 201s off before Dundalk, around Newry or Lisburn. It never made it to the IE network double headded.

208 did haul 209 north when it was delivered or was it the other way round, anyway it was not double headding as only the lead loco was powered.[/quote

I think it was Lisburn where one of the 201s was removed, also there was an IE 071/NIR 111 double headed railtour on NIR metals aswell, special permission was granted for this by NIR but IE would not allow it although special permission was granted for the 208/209 run to Belfast when they were delivered.

Double heading of 071s/201s on the Cork and Belfast lines for normal running was only permitted about 4 years ago and is yet to happen and most likely won't unless on a tour, the two 071s to Cork last year technically dosn't count as one was dead, however it woild not have happened prior to the double heading being allowed.

GM228

goingnowhere

If you want to double head the entire train will need to use the buckeye couplers as 2 201's will pull a screw coupling apart if you do a full power start 600kN+ tractive (*2 071 gets about 540kN) effort vs 360kN UIC design spec for a screw coupling

Captain Chaos

goingnowhere wrote: »

If you want to double head the entire train will need to use the buckeye couplers as 2 201's will pull a screw coupling apart if you do a full power start 600kN+ tractive (*2 071 gets about 540kN) effort vs 360kN UIC design spec for a screw coupling

I believe that actually happened to some if not all of the Cravens on that leg of the rail tour with the 2x 201s. While the couplers did not fail completely they were damaged.

Captain Chaos

Captain Chaos wrote: »

I believe that actually happened to some if not all of the Cravens on that leg of the rail tour with the 2x 201s. While the couplers did not fail completely they were damaged.

Apparently this was the case.

I heard that when 800 was being transferred up to Cultra, they had to put flat wagons on the train so 800 and the hauling loco wouldn't be on the Boyne viaduct at the same time. Long time ago now though.

GM228

A Number of the Belmond Mk3s are nearing completion in Kilmarnock and are re-painted into the Belmond blue livery as per the Wanderers previous photo of the EGV complete with light grey roof.

A few more months should see blue Mk3s returning!

GM228

Cookie_Monster

photaes

https://chrisplayfair.smugmug.com/Travel/2015-Photos/Ireland-September-2015/51701791_JN9gQZ#!i=4320219177&k=K7TmbQH

Del.Monte

How is it Belmond are able to refurbish these carriages - presumably with at least a 25/30 year lifespan in mind - and CIE couldn't get rid of them fast enough.

end of the road

Del.Monte wrote: »

How is it Belmond are able to refurbish these carriages - presumably with at least a 25/30 year lifespan in mind - and CIE couldn't get rid of them fast enough.

because. they needed an overspecked overpriced refurbishment.

Captain Chaos

Del.Monte wrote: »

How is it Belmond are able to refurbish these carriages - presumably with at least a 25/30 year lifespan in mind - and CIE couldn't get rid of them fast enough.

Because IE don't want to run loco hauled trains anymore unless they have to. Hence only the premium services are loco hauled.

end of the road

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Because IE don't want to run loco hauled trains anymore unless they have to. Hence only the premium services are loco hauled.

i'd go further and say. even when they have to, they don't want to. so they do it as little as they can get away with. belfast, and grudgingly some cork services. never mind though, we can enjoy an under capacity railway for the next 10-15 years (its probably all the 22k sets will last but we'l wait and see)

savagethegoat

the push-pull trains don't really count as proper loco hauled.

Cookie_Monster

savagethegoat wrote: »

the push-pull trains don't really count as proper loco hauled.

why not?

roundymac

savagethegoat wrote: »

the push-pull trains don't really count as proper loco hauled.

When they are being hauled,ie; loco at the front then they are proper loco hauled. As the Meercat says, simplies:P

metrovick001

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnWhXWbTt9E

Here's one of them there fake trains !

GM228

First view of 7104 as the new observation car.

http://www.wnxx.com/15/1510/201015/7104.htm

Returning soon to Belfast apparently.

GM228

ClovenHoof

GM228 wrote: »

First view of 7104 as the new observation car.

http://www.wnxx.com/15/1510/201015/7104.htm

Returning soon to Belfast apparently.

GM228

wow! That looks fantastic! Imagine going around Bray Head in that.

Captain Chaos

ClovenHoof wrote: »

wow! That looks fantastic! Imagine going around Bray Head in that.

Great if it's at the rear of the train at the time, if the rake is being hauled by that end then you will get a great close up of the loco.

I'm sure there is more detailing to be applied livery wise before it's fully finished.

savagethegoat

It doesn't look great, what are you on about? It looks like a butchered Mk3 and badly done at that!

Seanmk1

savagethegoat wrote: »

It doesn't look great, what are you on about? It looks like a butchered Mk3 and badly done at that!

How will this fit with the requirement for yellow ends? Will one be added later?