Matt Taylor's T-Shirt

NI24

Ladies, I was wondering what your thoughts were on scientist Matt Taylor's T-shirt? Do you find it sexist?

Rosy Posy

I don't particularly like the shirt but I find it more tasteless than sexist. When I see people wearing stuff like that I might inwardly roll my eyes but I don't think it's a cause for outrage. The cynic in me says that it's a very effective marketing tool for his friend who made the shirt's business. It seems to me that he could easily have worn it as bait for the journalist's article and subsequent backlash drumming up publicity for his friend. I think that the wider issue of women in STEM fields that she brings up is valid but that this shirt has little to do with that, unless you want to take it as a manifestation of endemic misogyny in these fields, which, to my mind is a pretty big leap. I think that a better journalist could have made the point that she's making in a different way- a think piece with examples, interviews and analysis; and a totally different tone- to greater effect.

daisybun

Thanks for starting this thread in TLL; I was going to do the same myself because I'm afraid to voice my opinion in the After Hours one.

I have written and re-written my response but I keep deleting my comments as I can't see a way of expressing it that won't attract the usual vitriol. Instead I'll just say that it is not appropriate for any workplace (despite many on the after hours thread trying to claim it is in some way necessary for his creativity, lol!).

I work in the STEM area and that kind of low level sexism, implying that women exist for titillation rather than their ability to contribute to the workforce is insidious as I said it is low level so you're just a whinger or a "femi-nazi" if you object to it (c.f. the other thread).

Thankfully I currently work in a place where if a colleague turned up wearing that shirt they would straight away be asked to change it.

NI24

Rosy Posy wrote: »

I don't particularly like the shirt but I find it more tasteless than sexist. When I see people wearing stuff like that I might inwardly roll my eyes but I don't think it's a cause for outrage. The cynic in me says that it's a very effective marketing tool for his friend who made the shirt's business. It seems to me that he could easily have worn it as bait for the journalist's article and subsequent backlash drumming up publicity for his friend. I think that the wider issue of women in STEM fields that she brings up is valid but that this shirt has little to do with that, unless you want to take it as a manifestation of endemic misogyny in these fields, which, to my mind is a pretty big leap. I think that a better journalist could have made the point that she's making in a different way- a think piece with examples, interviews and analysis; and a totally different tone- to greater effect.

Hmmm. I would have the opposite opinion. I believe it's very sexist, but it really has nothing to do with the scientific community. Speaking as a woman who was educated in STEM fields, I never felt anything but completely encouraged, moreso than if I were a man even. But I'm not really talking about the article you mentioned. I'm talking more about the fact that women's bodies are still on display for t-shirts, billboards, tv shows, you name it.

pwurple

Don't get the fuss. Is this the tshirt with some cartoon images of good looking women? Not work appropriate sure, but would be fine on hols.

Mod

How many times do people need to be reminded not to discuss other forums?

Read the charter before posting in this forum again please.

NI24

daisybun wrote: »

I work in the STEM area and that kind of low level sexism, implying that women exist for titillation rather than their ability to contribute to the workforce is insidious as I said it is low level so you're just a whinger or a "femi-nazi" if you object to it (c.f. the other thread).

Yes! Thank you for this. The constant constant constant barrage of images and words that exploit women for their looks gets so tiresome I could scream.

pwurple

NI24 wrote: »

Yes! Thank you for this. The constant constant constant barrage of images and words that exploit women for their looks gets so tiresome I could scream.

These are cartoons though. No actual women exploited?

I dunno. My husband has a few t shirts/boardshorts with drawings of women on them (less tame than these tbh, most of them have boobs out). I like them. I know plenty of my old classmates and collegues who would wear something similar on nights out. I don't consider any of them sexist at all. They've always treated me the same at work etc. it's more like appreciating a nice thing to me. A beautiful tree, beautiful woman, beautiful landscape.

Decided "meh" from me.

Das Kitty

pwurple wrote: »

These are cartoons though. No actual women exploited?

I dunno. My husband has a few t shirts/boardshorts with drawings of women on them (less tame than these tbh, most of them have boobs out). I like them. I know plenty of my old classmates and collegues who would wear something similar on nights out. I don't consider any of them sexist at all. They've always treated me the same at work etc. it's more like appreciating a nice thing to me. A beautiful tree, beautiful woman, beautiful landscape.

Decided "meh" from me.

+1

I actually think it's a pretty nice shirt. And hands up I have made clothes using pin-up fabric very similar to this. I'm a woman working in STEM too, by the way.

I don't feel there is anything wrong with enjoying how people's bodies look.

I think the shirt was probably work inappropriate, but sexist? Ah here.

spurious

Given that it was going to be (potentially) such an important day at work for them, you would think some thought might have been put into what shirt he would wear, but perhaps not, given that it really wasn't appropriate.

I don't consider the shirt offensive as such, more childish really - something like those ties with the design made up of little drawings of penises (oh how we laughed at such a great idea for a tie). The choice of such a shirt would not make me have a great deal of respect for the person wearing it, but would I feel offended as a woman? No.

anewme

Firstly, I think the shirt is absolutely vile and my first thoughts were that he should be done for crimes against taste.:eek: Some of you even on here like it, all that shows we all have different tastes, that's allowed.

Then when I looked at it closer, I thought the pattern was a bit much, women in suspenders half naked, spilling out over bustiers. It's like something from the mad men era.

I immediately thought back to the "nudie" calanders and page 3 photos that are in reality not that long gone from our workplaces.

We have casual Friday and to be honest, if someone came in wearing that, without a doubt I can safely say there would be a track of people straight down to HR.

The best that can be said about it is that it was not appropriate for the conference he gave. It sent totally the wrong message........we are so far advanced now, scientifically, yet its still ok for women to be treated as t**s and a**.

To be honest I can understand the backlash. I do feel sorry for him that his error of judgment has taken from what was a fantastic achievement for him personally and I can see by his apology that he is extremely frustrated by this. I would also question the fact that no PR people or colleagues thought fit to say to him, ehhh do you not think this might offend some people?

There's a time and a place for a shirt like that. If I came across one it would come in handy when I needed a new floor cloth.

TheBeardedLady

I think it's just his style with the tattoos and everything else. He looks like he's going for the kitsch look and that t-shirt goes with it. If he had a sexist attitude to match the shirt, which no one knows whether he does or not, then there'd be a problem, otherwise it just looks like his own personal style. Not bothered by it and think all this hullabaloo detracts from what he actually achieved.

YumCha

I find it sexist - lots of people have already said it's work inappropriate, that if anyone turned up to the office wearing that they'd be asked to change - and that's not because of the composition of colours.

There have been numerous articles about the attrition rate of women in STEM fields - which is twice the rate of men - and how the culture is a part of that. I don't see the shirt itself as a huge issue, but more of a microaggression - one of the many emotional paper cuts over time that result in women leaving these industries:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/12/science/harassment-in-science-replicated.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/magazine/why-are-there-still-so-few-women-in-science.html?pagewanted=all

The thing I really can't deal with is women who find the shirt sexist being decried as shrieking overreacting harpies by men saying such women should be raped or killed, or unleashing paragraphs of slurs. Irony much?

Personally - I don't get the backlash against people who want to make spaces more inclusive. Whether that be asking people not to use the word lame because it's ableist, or removing sexualised images from the workplace. My thoughts on people who need to dig in their heels about something that is making someone else uncomfortable are pretty much summed up by this:

rainbow kirby

spurious wrote: »

Given that it was going to be (potentially) such an important day at work for them, you would think some thought might have been put into what shirt he would wear, but perhaps not, given that it really wasn't appropriate

Agree with this. It's more the sort of thing that I would expect to see someone wearing in relatively nerdy but not professional settings - for wargaming, a hackathon etc. It displays poor judgement wearing it to work on a day where there was going to be a lot of media focus on them.

Rosy Posy

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Agree with this. It's more the sort of thing that I would expect to see someone wearing in relatively nerdy but not professional settings - for wargaming, a hackathon etc. It displays poor judgement wearing it to work on a day where there was going to be a lot of media focus on them.

I'd say he wore it to get publicity for his friend who made it.

NI24

pwurple wrote: »

it's more like appreciating a nice thing to me. A beautiful tree, beautiful woman, beautiful landscape.

It's these sort of comparisons that irritate me the most. Women (and their bodies) are not "things". A tree and a landscape are things. And I want to clarify that women can be just as sexist to women as men can be, so the t-shirt is really only half his fault (the other half being the designer).

newport2

YumCha wrote: »

There have been numerous articles about the attrition rate of women in STEM fields - which is twice the rate of men - and how the culture is a part of that. I don't see the shirt itself as a huge issue, but more of a microaggression - one of the many emotional paper cuts over time that result in women leaving these industries:

There were numerous prominent scientists and engineers who were women involved in this mission. It's a pity that so much of the media focus is given to a guys shirt instead of perhaps promoting some positive female role models in STEM for their great achievement this week.

YumCha

newport2 wrote: »

There were numerous prominent scientists and engineers who were women involved in this mission. It's a pity that so much of the media focus is given to a guys shirt instead of perhaps promoting some positive female role models in STEM for their great achievement this week.

It's not an either or situation. There's space to discuss more than one thing at a time.

In saying that - yes it is a pity he didn't wake up on that morning and choose a shirt that wouldn't overshadow or distract from their great achivements and let their work speak for itself.

Methvet Nian

I think it is only sexist in the way that the focus is on what a man wore, rather than focus on which women were involved and what they did to contribute to the project, to inspire more young people's interest in the field. It was not a good shirt to wear, but he didn't do a bad thing by wearing it, and in no way deserved the backlash and the focus he received for it.

eviltwin

His shirt didn't offend me personally but I can see how some would be. I don't know much about the team involved in this event but I'd imagine it was a relatively small group and when you get to know people well you can get away with more. But if you were to walk into an overwhelmingly male environment not knowing anyone and saw that you could be forgiven for being a bit uncomfortable or on edge. My brother in law works on projects for the European Space Agency and he was telling me how on a project like this where you are almost living in the office living on junk food and coffee and barely sleeping you dress for comfort, you're mind is on the job and not on what way to present yourself to the media. I'm really in awe of the achievement, its huge and I think its a shame its been marred by something as trivial as a shirt.

strandroad

anewme wrote: »

I immediately thought back to the "nudie" calanders and page 3 photos that are in reality not that long gone from our workplace.

I had the exact same association, the shirt is the equivalent of a nudie calendar or poster on someone's desk. The critique got somewhat out of hand but it was worth pointing out that boobs and butts are best enjoyed out of the workspace, and have been for some time.

Wibbs

YumCha wrote: »

It's not an either or situation. There's space to discuss more than one thing at a time.

And yet what are so many discussing? A shirt is overshadowing the achievement and the women who were a part of making it happen. Where are the "or" articles about these women by this "writer"? Where are the interviews with the women scientists? Oh and this writer isn't some passerby amateur bloggist with some personal axe to grind, she's a professional science journalist writing for such august publications as Scientific American and the Smithsonian Magazine among others. Actually her tweet I could understand as a throwaway comment on said shirt, but then a full article on the matter comes along. The title of which speaks volumes: "I don't care if you landed a spacecraft on a comet, your shirt is sexist and ostracizing" EDIT what some are missing on this story, especially those with an anti feminist women agenda is the full article was written by a man(with added material by a woman).

In saying that - yes it is a pity he didn't wake up on that morning and choose a shirt that wouldn't overshadow or distract from their great achivements and let their work speak for itself.

Indeed it is and it's an even bigger pity that some have decided to have an offencathon over said shirt and willfully ignored the bigger picture on more than a few levels.

pwurple

NI24 wrote: »

It's these sort of comparisons that irritate me the most. Women (and their bodies) are not "things". A tree and a landscape are things. And I want to clarify that women can be just as sexist to women as men can be, so the t-shirt is really only half his fault (the other half being the designer).

Images are things. Drawings are things. I see no reason to make drawings of female bodies off limits for appreciation in art, culture or fashion.

Is that what you think should happen here? We can have all the trees and landscapes we want, but no images of women's bodies? What are we here, the Taliban?

YumCha

Wibbs wrote: »

Where are the "or" articles about these women by this "writer"? Where are the interviews with the women scientists?

I said there's space to write articles about just about the scientific achievements, and to write about the shirt, not that people are obligated to do both. I don't get the aggressiveness over a writer of any gender deciding that they want to cover one aspect more than the other, especially on a site that "covers the intersection of technology, science, art, and culture".

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed it is and it's an even bigger pity that some have decided to have an offencathon over said shirt and willfully ignored the bigger picture on more than a few levels.

More than one person in this thread has said they find the shirt inappropriate. Again I don't understand the aggressiveness - if you don't find the shirt sexist great! But that isn't a reason to insult or belittle those who do, or those who want to discuss it.

pwurple

Just to clarify, the reason I think that shirt is inappropriate for work is not the print itself... It just looks like beachwear. So, the same way I wouldn't wear a swimsuit to work, or my jammies to work. But his place of work is obviously less formal than mine!

Can someone clarify why how it is sexist? There is no sexist slogan for example.

I think it's interesting that the women who already work in STEM sectors (myself included) don't find it sexist...

As an aside, I was talking to someone during the week in a social setting, who was giving out stink that money had been paid for the comet landing at all. She thought this project was a complete waste of money, and was generally complaining that technology gets any kind of funding, when there are social problems to be addressed. This is the kind of thinking that to my mind inhibits women in science and technology, not the pattern of fabric on some guys tshirt.

YumCha

pwurple wrote: »

Can someone clarify why how it is sexist? There is no sexist slogan for example.

What is sexism and how does it work in STEM?

Also - I work in STEM.

strandroad

YumCha wrote: »

What is sexism and how does it work in STEM?

Also - I work in STEM.

I work in IT and I don't like it much either.
Pinup displays are not happening much anymore (in my experience), perhaps that's why this case got such a response?

Wibbs

YumCha wrote: »

Again I don't understand the aggressiveness

That's twice in your reply where you appear to have accused me of aggression. Where are getting aggression from? Unless you consider posing another viewpoint as aggressive?

if you don't find the shirt sexist great! But that isn't a reason to insult or belittle those who do, or those who want to discuss it.

I was discussing it, as were others with a similar viewpoint. I didn't "insult" or "belittle" anyone, nor did I say that it was "shrieking overreacting harpies" responsible, indeed I noted where others haven't that the main article that is being referenced all over the web was written by a man. But it seems that you find any discussion "aggressive" if it doesn't quite agree with your position. Or one might be forgiven for thinking that my gender is making your assumptions for you.

On another of your points:

The thing I really can't deal with is women who find the shirt sexist being decried as shrieking overreacting harpies by men saying such women should be raped or killed

Where has anyone said such women should be raped or killed? Jezebel and other outlets have also made this claim and gave examples, yet not one example they gave came close to threats of rape or murder. Given previous guff around this kinda subject I'd not be at all surprised to find idiots behind keyboards making such claims, but when such emotive accusations are made it's often good in the interests of accuracy to give sources for such claims.

pwurple

YumCha wrote: »

What is sexism and how does it work in STEM?

Also - I work in STEM.

I read the link. Didn't see any connection the offending fabric pattern myself. Which of those types of sexism described do you think it is?

YumCha

Things I found aggressive/belittling/insulting:
- Putting writer in quotes - is she not a writer to you?
- Demands to dig up articles/show 'proof' - this is a common derailing tactic that is a wild goose chase as there is often no proof that can satisfy the requester. It's also a way to subtly dismiss/gaslight other people's opinions - most commonly when there is a unequal power dynamic (e.g. white people telling not-white people what is/isn't racism, straight people telling LGBTQ people what they should/should not find offensive or exclusionary, or men telling women what they should/should not find sexist).
- Referring to it as an 'offencathon' - I don't find this to be neutral language

Oh and this:

Wibbs wrote: »

Or one might be forgiven for thinking that my gender is making your assumptions for you.

On the other point - I believe there are plenty of examples of rape/death threats - but if you don't find the examples on Jezebel to be enough then I don't feel compelled to go through the disturbing mentions on Twitter, or the plethora of material close to hand which would be against the charter to cite.

YumCha

pwurple wrote: »

I read the link. Didn't see any connection the offending fabric pattern myself. Which of those types of sexism described do you think it is?

I would class it as Benevolent/Accidental/Unintentional Sexism. To me the shirt is the same as a pinup calendar - which some (most?) people on this thread seem to agree is a really old-school thing that isn't acceptable in the workplace any more.

YumCha

I don't think "please jump off a cliff" is a death threat

YumCha wrote: »

- Demands to dig up articles/show 'proof' - this is a common derailing tactic

It's also known as burden of proof and now that I've seen this I'm also curious
If there were death threats jezebel has poor writing/sourcing to not have used those instead of the above quote. It looks like common clickbait.

Are the tweets an overreaction and unpleasant, yeah, but I think they're honestly genderless typical responses like you'd get from anyone regardless of your username on youtube comments or whatever. Just idiots being given too much airtime. If it was an orchestrated "i hate this woman" campaign as has happened before that would be a more serious issue

I don't really see the fuss about the shirt. It's not what you'd wear to work but hey, bad shirt day.

If there are women out there who experience low level comments and harassment every day and it's from people who have this kind of attire and they feel it just symbolises that attitude - well I guess that's fair enough. It would be good to hear more from them, and maybeshift the focus away from the shirt - a shirt designed by a woman in the first place - and onto any issues with women in science in general though. Like those new york articles linked earlier, http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/12/science/harassment-in-science-replicated.html . Or the stories of female inventors in the 20thC who never really got credit for their work and if there's any chance this is still going on.
IFLS had a mention of her recently http://www.women-inventors.com/Hedy-Lammar.asp

pwurple

YumCha wrote: »

I would class it as Benevolent/Accidental/Unintentional Sexism. To me the shirt is the same as a pinup calendar - which some (most?) people on this thread seem to agree is a really old-school thing that isn't acceptable in the workplace any more.

Benevolent sexism is given the example there where men don't let women do things they are perceived to weak to do... "He's only trying to help". Don't see this tshirt being an example of that in any way.

Accidental sexism is where people behave like sexism is an inevitable part of life... Like "but women always do the cooking". Maybe you could link this, if you thought the tshirt was saying that women are always in their underwear, or something similar. But even that seems like a giant leap to me, and way too close to censorship for my comfort.

YumCha

pwurple wrote: »

Benevolent sexism is given the example there where men don't let women do things they are perceived to weak to do... "He's only trying to help". Don't see this tshirt being an example of that in any way.

Accidental sexism is where people behave like sexism is an inevitable part of life... Like "but women always do the cooking". Maybe you could link this, if you thought the tshirt was saying that women are always in their underwear, or something similar. But even that seems like a giant leap to me, and way too close to censorship for my comfort.

I put it in those categories more the 'goodwill' aspect being expected to excuse it. It could also fall under the definition of sexual harassment - as content.

Why is it too close to censorship? Do you think that pin up calendars are okay? Pics of Page 3 up on the walls?

Wibbs

YumCha wrote: »

- Putting writer in quotes - is she not a writer to you?

She may write, I wouldn't consider her a writer on current evidence. Personal opinion. One is allowed to have one.

- Demands to dig up articles/show 'proof' - this is a common derailing tactic that is a wild goose chase as there is often no proof that can satisfy the requester.

When someone makes any claim on any subject in a discussion, especially an emotive one, it behoves them to back such a claim up. As Bluewolf said it's known as the burden of proof. Or does opinion always trump facts and such a claim must be accepted simply because it's made? Really? OK then. Interesting way to have a discussion. Unless of course all you want is an echo chamber.

It's also a way to subtly dismiss/gaslight other people's opinions - most commonly when there is a unequal power dynamic (e.g. white people telling not-white people what is/isn't racism, straight people telling LGBTQ people what they should/should not find offensive or exclusionary, or men telling women what they should/should not find sexist).

None of which I did mind you, but you may as well add another log to that pyre you're attempting to build under me.. I find it ironic you feel the victim of dismissal when you are doing precisely that, by accusing me from the get go of aggression and using derailing/"gaslighting" tactics simply because I asked you to back up one of your statements.

- Referring to it as an 'offencathon' - I don't find this to be neutral language

Sorry, I'll try to be more "neutral" in the future.

On the other point - I believe there are plenty of examples of rape/death threats - but if you don't find the examples on Jezebel to be enough then I don't feel compelled to go through the disturbing mentions on Twitter, or the plethora of material close to hand which would be against the charter to cite.

That's convenient for you. Funny and I'm happy to be corrected on this, I don't recall anything in the charter(which back in the day I helped write BTW) that precludes links and sources to back up anyone's position. If in your opinion these links are NSFW or are of a sensitive nature then add NSFW or warning tags to them.

Oh and the Jezebel examples don't come close to backing up your statement that commenters were calling that "such women should be raped or killed". And I am happy to add the link to said page for others to make up their mind about. And it's totally SFW. Some are hardly polite, but none are death or rape threats, but as I said I'll leave others to make their own minds up on the matter.

YumCha

Wibbs wrote: »

That's convenient for you. Funny and I'm happy to be corrected on this, I don't recall anything in the charter(which back in the day I helped write BTW) that precludes links and sources to back up anyone's position.

There has already been a mod warning on thread about it.

I don't expect we'll see eye to eye on anything - but the things I'm talking about in terms of derailing are well documented in feminist circles. This article explains a lot of why I'm not particularly inclined to scramble to prove my point to a legal standard on an internet discussion forum to someone like yourself.

I'm kind of done defending my opinion here - you'll probably think that's 'convenient' too.

Amirani

YumCha wrote: »

I don't expect we'll see eye to eye on anything - but the things I'm talking about in terms of derailing are well documented in feminist circles. This article explains a lot of why I'm not particularly inclined to scramble to prove my point to a legal standard on an internet discussion forum to someone like yourself

That article is fairly ridiculous. Essentially this means that we shouldn't have a legal system as it's impossible to be empathetic and form judgement on any non-personal experiences. Okay.

KomradeBishop

YumCha wrote: »

...
- Demands to dig up articles/show 'proof' - this is a common derailing tactic that is a wild goose chase as there is often no proof that can satisfy the requester. It's also a way to subtly dismiss/gaslight other people's opinions - most commonly when there is a unequal power dynamic (e.g. white people telling not-white people what is/isn't racism, straight people telling LGBTQ people what they should/should not find offensive or exclusionary, or men telling women what they should/should not find sexist).
...

YumCha wrote: »

...but the things I'm talking about in terms of derailing are well documented in feminist circles. This article explains a lot of why I'm not particularly inclined to scramble to prove my point to a legal standard on an internet discussion forum to someone like yourself.

I'm kind of done defending my opinion here - you'll probably think that's 'convenient' too.

Eh? The most basic requirement for being able to debate something rationally, is for people to prove their claims - the above just reads like an attempt at a cop-out from that, where you engage in ad-hominem, by saying that the persons motivation is to derail the argument, instead of you dealing with their actual argument and providing proof.

Taking your standard of argument, you can make any claim that you like, and then just blast anyone who disagrees with you and asks for proof, as trying to "derail discussion" - effectively just dismissing anyone who disagrees with you, with a cop-out, instead of actually debating.


EDIT: I've seen something like this from other posters as well, where - for example - when someone takes issue with a word that can be offensive, they get accused of "derailing discussion" for doing that - i.e. effectively turning it into an attack on the person for pointing that out, to try and deligitimize their point with ad-hominem; it makes the 'derailing' accusation seem in general, like a cop-out.

Viriconia

A man being judged on his appearance rather than his achievements is terrible. No woman can imagine what THAT must be like.

meeeeh

A lot of fuss about tacky t shirt. I think it is terrible that what someone is wearing is becoming more important than what they do. I remember a thread being closed here because it was discussing a dress sense of a meteorologist. Plenty of people pointed out there that there is more to her than just her clothing. Maybe some should adhere to the same standards here.

Oh Btw since there is now big distaste for pin up calendars, if anyone gets a Pirelli one please send it my way.

Wibbs

YumCha wrote: »

There has already been a mod warning on thread about it.

No there has not. The only warning given was with regard to long standing rule against discussing other forums on Boards, not links to outside sources. Oh and On Boards you most certainly won't find what you're claiming either.

I don't expect we'll see eye to eye on anything - but the things I'm talking about in terms of derailing are well documented in feminist circles. This article explains a lot of why I'm not particularly inclined to scramble to prove my point to a legal standard on an internet discussion forum to someone like yourself.

"Legal standard" Oh man... I've reads some doosies in my time, but that takes all the digestives in the pack. That blog entry can be summed up by this passage with some reading between the lines. Actually little between the lines reading is required.

So please, men, unless you have some nuanced, intelligent response that respects my lived experiences and serves to engage positively with my feminism agree with everything I claim and say and believe with zero resistance just because I claim and say and believe it, get out of my face.

AKA an echo chamber.

I'm kind of done defending my opinion here - you'll probably think that's 'convenient' too.

You didn't defend anything, you made an incorrect emotive statement designed to rev up the "outrage" and didn't defend nor back it up, merely scrabbled for excuses why you couldn't and sought to shut down any discussion by throwing around accusations of aggression, dismissal and "gaslighting".

FactCheck

Didn't the OP say they only wanted female opinions? I know anyone who likes can post in TLL but if you've a Y chromosome and a burning desire to share your views on the shirt surely there are better places?

I'm a woman in STEM and if one of my employees wore a shirt like that, just on a "normal" day let alone the day the eyes of the world were on us, there would be serious consequences. What a moron. Interacting with the press is an important part of his job and he basically showed he's rubbish at it.

I think it's unprofessional and yes, sexist (albeit in a very minor way) for the same reason a Playboy calendar on the wall would be. This isn't a cringeworthy mechanic shop circa 1970, it's the European Space Agency and the BBC News.

Almost all of us posting have been female

pwurple

YumCha wrote: »

I put it in those categories more the 'goodwill' aspect being expected to excuse it. It could also fall under the definition of sexual harassment - as content.

Why is it too close to censorship? Do you think that pin up calendars are okay? Pics of Page 3 up on the walls?

How is this shirt in any way comparable to page 3? This is the leap I'm talking about. Page 3 is surgically modified women, posing naked. This is a fabric print of pen drawings of clothed cartoon characters. They are as far apart as that comet is from us!

I dunno. It's even feeling a bit iffy bothering about this. I'll get back to reading about all the awesome things happening with philae lander.

strandroad

pwurple wrote: »

How is this shirt in any way comparable to page 3? This is the leap I'm talking about. Page 3 is surgically modified women, posing naked. This is a fabric print of pen drawings of clothed cartoon characters. They are as far apart as that comet is from us!

It's not page 3 but it's straight up pinup - busty ladies spilling out of their latex corsets, thighs with suspenders.
And a pinup calendar is not a great idea for one's office wall anymore.

He got far too much grief over it though. It was not incorrect to call him out on it but a one liner apology during his next interview should be enough to shut everyone up.

Das Kitty

mhge wrote: »

It's not page 3 but it's straight up pinup - busty ladies spilling out of their latex corsets, thighs with suspenders.
And a pinup calendar is not a great idea for one's office wall anymore.

He got far too much grief over it though. It was not incorrect to call him out on it but a one liner apology during his next interview should be enough to shut everyone up.

He has already apologised (in tears).

I'm still hearing about it.

Amirani

FactCheck wrote: »

Didn't the OP say they only wanted female opinions? I know anyone who likes can post in TLL but if you've a Y chromosome and a burning desire to share your views on the shirt surely there are better places?

Mod

Just to clarify here - an opening poster isn't allowed to set thread rules that undermine the thread charter i.e. stipulation that men's opinions aren't welcome isn't allowed. The normal forum rules apply, male contributions are allowed provided they're within the remit of the charter. Please report anything you feel is to the contrary of this and don't discuss it on-thread.

Tasden

I didn't actually see the shirt- heard all about it- so googled it there. Honestly I can't see how it got the attention it did.

If the man had a similar picture tattooed on his arm (as some men do) would people accuse him of sexism or is it because he chose that design to wear on that particular day that people think its sexist?

I would be of the opinion it wasn't very work appropriate but didn't warrant an apology. I'd feel the same if he had worn a lara croft t shirt or something- depicting a sexy woman- but not necessarily inappropriate due to that, it just looks a little childish/sloppy or something.

beks101

Just another reason for another 'gender war', on social media and on boards.

Makes me sad more than anything.

Hold the Cheez Whiz

I said this in another thread, but it just about sums up my feelings on the whole thing.

I work at a university in a very casual department, but although I know that I can get away with jeans, combat boots and visible tattoos when I'm just in the office, I know I have to step it up a bit when I do public events or lectures representing my research group. It isn't that difficult - it's just part of being an adult with some level of responsibility. I think sticking to the adage of "you want them to remember what you said not what you wore" has served me well over the years, and it certainly would have been a useful guideline for this guy.

That said, to me, the shirt is more of a crime against fashion than womanhood. And clearly these guys work in a pretty casual lab. But if you're going to do a TV interview, and be the face of a massive multi-billion dollar project to the rest of the world, well...if I were his colleague, I probably would have suggested that he throw a hoodie on over that shirt because it is visually distracting and because of the potential for it to raise hackles.

Cosmicfox

Seems like a lot of whinging over nothing tbh.

It's a tacky shirt, not the really the thing you'd wear for such an event but he did not deserve all the crap he got over it.