I don't want a vote

petrolcan

(Mods: This may be in the wrong place so feel free to move it)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-30035870

I've lived in the UK since 1991 yet if those recommendations were adopted I'd be allowed a vote on Irish Parliamentary matters.

Seems completely mad to me.

Fuhrer

I think Irish citizens can already vote in UK elections, must be to balance it out.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Mad is right. I would be totally opposed to this. Nobody living outside the jurisdiction of the state should have a vote. We living here would have to live with the consequences while they vote based on an ideology.

petrolcan

Fuhrer wrote: »

I think Irish citizens can already vote in UK elections, must be to balance it out.

Only if they are living in the UK.

Areyouwell

A pleasant surprise when I moved to the UK and suddenly I'm entitled to vote in a UK election.

onemorechance

Fuhrer wrote: »

I think Irish citizens can already vote in UK elections, must be to balance it out.

petrolcan wrote: »

Only if they are living in the UK.

I would expect that any EU citizen is entitled vote in any ballot in any EU state in which they are resident.

Arsemageddon

Kayden Wonderful Sphere wrote: »

Mad is right. I would be totally opposed to this. Nobody living outside the jurisdiction of the state should have a vote. We living here would have to live with the consequences while they vote based on an ideology.

Voting based on ideology strikes me as better than our existing system of voting based on a candidates ability to fix potholes.

Fuhrer

onemorechance wrote: »

I would expect that any EU citizen is entitled vote in any ballot in any EU state in which they are resident.

Not in general elections though

Who is eligible to vote at a UK general election?

To vote in a UK general election a person must be registered to vote and also:

be 18 years of age or over on polling day
be a British citizen, a qualifying Commonwealth citizen or a citizen of the Republic of Ireland
not be subject to any legal incapacity to vote


Additionally, the following cannot vote in a UK general election:
EU citizens resident in the UK (although they can vote at elections to local authorities, devolved legislatures and the European Parliament)
anyone other than British, Irish and qualifying Commonwealth citizens

Philo Beddoe

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Voting based on ideology strikes me as better than our existing system of voting based on a candidates ability to fix potholes.

What are you talking about? :mad:

My father voted for his father, and you'll vote for his son.

lazybones32

petrolcan wrote: »

Seems completely mad to me.

Well, this is Ireland, you know...

This is just a pointless exercise so FG/Lab will have something positive to say they did when they come knocking on doors for the next election.

Irish people won't travel too far to vote in our own elections. I can't imagine people being too arsed to make a more considerable journey to a designated polling booth in a foreign land.

FloatingVoter

This will mean shinnerbots being bussed south to vote in our elections which worries me. As it will the powers that be. It'll stay at committee stage. I know this country is going to turn into Germany 193 at some point but not just yet. I still need time to save for my plane ticket out.

Fuhrer

FloatingVoter wrote: »

This will mean shinnerbots being bussed south to vote in our elections which worries me. As it will the powers that be. It'll stay at committee stage. I know this country is going to turn into Germany 193 at some point but not just yet. I still need time to save for my plane ticket out.

You still have to be registered at an address in the South, you cant just hope on a bus and go tourist voting.

biko

I'm all for it. Say I move away for 6 years somewhere but am an Irish citizen still.
I should still have a say in home politics.

So, Irish passport = Irish vote.

daheff

As far as im concerned you want an irish vote you should have to pay irish taxes, even if you live abroad (like the us does) ...and a small flat rate if you live abroad but dont vote.

VinLieger

biko wrote: »

I'm all for it. Say I move away for 6 years somewhere but am an Irish citizen still.
I should still have a say in home politics.

So, Irish passport = Irish vote.

Ridiculous attitude you may never return home and still have a say on how our country is governed without having to be directly affected by the consequences?

Also the passport logic is ridiculous, due to how Irish passport eligibility works, two Irish people could have moved to America and stay there for the rest of their lives and have a family, their grandchildren who will likely never be a resident in Ireland or possibly even visit the country have a right to a passport and under your logic a vote as well. How is that fair?

questionmark?

Should be restricted to Irish born only. Have a time limit such as 10 years.

It wouldnt be a free vote all over the country depending on which county you grew up in but rather allocated seats in the same way countrys
like France have. You could have seat for the UK, Europe/Africa, North/South America, Asia/Oceania.

Cant post link but Irish emigrants send a lot of money home, lots are likely to come home not to mention building trade links with the motherland.

Son Of A Vidic

Kayden Wonderful Sphere wrote: »

Mad is right. I would be totally opposed to this. Nobody living outside the jurisdiction of the state should have a vote. We living here would have to live with the consequences while they vote based on an ideology.

Live with what consequences, an upset to the status quote? I have no doubt the decades of talent that had to leave this country through no fault of their own, would not agree with those I'm alright jack sentiments. I like many people I know, had to leave Ireland for a significant number of years. To escape the shackles of who you know, not what you know. And I would have loved the opportunity as an Irish citizen while abroad, to register my displeasure and give a two fingers to the Fine Gael/Fianna Fail induced virus of cronyism that pervades this little country. And that's the real reason successive governments have denied Irish citizens abroad the vote - fear. They are well aware of the kicking they would deservedly receive. 120 countries around the world see this as a democratic right for their citizens who live abroad. But no doubt the cliques and their self-interests will fight it as hard as they can. Fortunately with the EU now keeping an eye on matters and the potential for this ending up in European Court of Justice. They maybe be fighting a losing battle.

The Golden Miller

I think this is aimed more at Irish people in the north, and the ones who hold an Irish passport should be allowed to vote

JuliusCaesar

biko wrote: »

I'm all for it. Say I move away for 6 years somewhere but am an Irish citizen still.
I should still have a say in home politics.

So, Irish passport = Irish vote.

That's what I used to think in the 12+ years I lived abroad - until in conversation about this, I realised that: Emigrants have an old-fashioned notion of what goes on at home, and also that everyone who votes should live with the consequences of that vote.

Can you imagine all the votes for Sinn Fein and Fianna Fail from our emigrants abroad? I'd have to emigrate, I could no longer live in a country where the biggest constituency lives elsewhere and doesn't have to live with the consequences.

biko

There are currently over a hundred countries that allow expats to vote to varying degrees. That's about half of the countries in the world.
Unless I give up my citizenship I don't see a reason to restrict my influence on national politics. I may or may not return, it doesn't matter.

Putin

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

That's what I used to think in the 12+ years I lived abroad - until in conversation about this, I realised that: Emigrants have an old-fashioned notion of what goes on at home, and also that everyone who votes should live with the consequences of that vote.

Old fashioned notion? Yes, maybe in the 1950's but not today. We live in the high speed digital/internet age. I know more about what's going on back home than friends who never left. And a lot of Irish friends are the same, they are very much up to speed with what has been going on in their homeland. I had no choice but to leave Ireland thanks to the corrupt clowns in government and their mismanagement. And I will be returning home someday, so how dare anyone who thinks they can justifiable deny me the right to vote as an Irish citizen.

DoctorEdgeWild

The day I moved here to England is the day I gave up the right to directly influence things in Ireland in my opinion.

I think residency is all that should matter when it comes to elections.

I don't think I should have the right to decide how a society is run unless I contribute to that society.

Putin

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

I don't think I should have the right to decide how a society is run unless I contribute to that society.

You must be one of the fortunate ones that had a choice then. I and many others had no choice but to leave, thanks to the clowns running the country. I have travelled home when possible on several occasion to vote in constitutional referendums and in one general election. But on other occasions work has made it impossible. I'm not British and I have not interest in voting in a UK election. So it's about time corrupt little Ireland joined most of the civilised democracies in granting it's citizens the right to vote. The good thing though is, it will be a matter of when not if.

DoctorEdgeWild

Putin wrote: »

You must be one of the fortunate ones that had a choice then. I and many others had no choice but to leave, thanks to the clowns running the country. I have travelled home when possible on several occasion to vote in constitutional referendums and in one general election. But on other occasions work has made it impossible. I'm not British and I have not interest in voting in a UK election. So it's about time corrupt little Ireland joined most of the civilised democracies in granting it's citizens the right to vote. The good thing though is, it will be a matter of when not if.

Everyone had a choice whether to leave or not.

I understand your position that you wish to still be involved in something you see as important to you but I simply disagree with a system where someone who lives thousands of miles away, for many years, should be able to directly influence society in a certain country simply due to a place of birth or country written on a passport.

keith16

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

I don't think I should have the right to decide how a society is run unless I contribute to that society.

Do you have a vote in England?

In any case, it does seem duplicitous that the government deny the vote to Irish citizens abroad, but also to foreign nationals living in the state.

DoctorEdgeWild

keith16 wrote: »

Do you have a vote in England?

In any case, it does seem duplicitous that the government deny the vote to Irish citizens abroad, but also to foreign nationals living in the state.

I do indeed, I voted in the local elections here a couple of months ago. Interestingly, I found there to be a really poor field of candidates to choose from compared to where I lived in Ireland.

keith16

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

I don't think I should have the right to decide how a society is run unless I contribute to that society.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with this.

I was born in Ireland, lived there all my life and contributed an awful lot. Now that I don't live there anymore, doesn't mean I still don't take a keen interest on what still goes on there.

Furthermore, who's to say I won't ever return? Distance is hardly a factor either. Just because something is going on far away from me, doesn't mean I'm not interested in influencing it.

And maybe politics and democracy would be different in Ireland if expats had a say. And if that influence was real and tangible, maybe it would mean a lot of people return from abroad.

DoctorEdgeWild

keith16 wrote: »

I'm not sure I entirely agree with this.

I was born in Ireland, lived there all my life and contributed an awful lot. Now that I don't live there anymore, doesn't mean I still don't take a keen interest on what still goes on there.

Furthermore, who's to say I won't ever return? Distance is hardly a factor either. Just because something is going on far away from me, doesn't mean I'm not interested in influencing it.

And maybe politics and democracy would be different in Ireland if expats had a say. And if that influence was real and tangible, maybe it would mean a lot of people return from abroad.

I see your point and you put it across well but I have to disagree.

I am also interested in influencing things in Ireland, in making things better for my family and friends and, like yourself, contributed to society there for many years.

However, I feel I gave up that right when I left. I have no plans to ever return as my home is now here but I would only expect to be afforded a say if I did move back full time.

For me it comes down to a simple ideal - I shouldn't have a say in a society/community of which I am not a currently active member.

Henlars67

As far as I know (couldn't be bothered looking for a source but read it a few times), the plan is to allow all Irish citizens to vote in presidential Elections. Think their might have been some talk about referendums as well.

I really don't see how anyone could have a problem with emigrants voting for a President, as it doesn't make any difference as to how the country is run, and as far as I'm concerned the President represents all Irish people regardless of where they live.

It wouldn't be practical to give emigrants a vote in local or general elections where there are so many constituencies, each with a separate ballot paper. Everyone gets the same ballot paper for a presidential election, so it would be relatively easy to do.

rainbow kirby

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

I do indeed, I voted in the local elections here a couple of months ago. Interestingly, I found there to be a really poor field of candidates to choose from compared to where I lived in Ireland.

Were 80% of your candidates from some variation of UKIP/BNP/miscellaneous racist idiots too? :eek:

I'd like to see it for the first 5 years after leaving Ireland. Covers most people who have left temporarily to find work and who do intend to return to Ireland. Someone who has stayed more than that probably intends on settling for the foreseeable future in their adopted country. The problem with allowing all Irish citizens the vote is the sheer volume of Catholic loopers in the US with an Irish grandparent who would drag us back to the dark ages in a heartbeat.

DoctorEdgeWild

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Were 80% of your candidates from some variation of UKIP/BNP/miscellaneous racist idiots too? :eek:

I'd like to see it for the first 5 years after leaving Ireland. Covers most people who have left temporarily to find work and who do intend to return to Ireland. Someone who has stayed more than that probably intends on settling for the foreseeable future in their adopted country. The problem with allowing all Irish citizens the vote is the sheer volume of Catholic loopers in the US with an Irish grandparent who would drag us back to the dark ages in a heartbeat.

My area is, so far, free of that particular scourge luckily. It's probably because I came from Dublin North Central where I remember there being a lot of independents to consider and read about before voting. Here in Worcestershire I didn't have to do more than a couple of hours research before reaching a decision.

TheBeardedLady

I have no interest in voting in Irish general elections anyway (too long out of the country) but I can't vote in the general elections of the country I've been resident in for over 5 years either (3 more years to go). I don't have the right to vote anywhere. That doesn't seem fair to me.

I believe a good compromise would be to allow Irish citizens to vote only if they can't/don't vote in their current country of residence. If they've opted to vote in the country they live in and they can, they shouldn't be allowed vote at home and a time limit should be put on it as well (8, for example. That's how much time is usually takes to get full residency in most countries and the right to vote - I also believe that after that time, most people would have no interest in voting anyway).

Micky Dolenz

I would not agree with the Passport = right to vote. There are thousands of Irish passport holders who have never set foot in Ireland.

I left home a while back and knew I would, by default, give up my right to have a say on how the country was run.

However, I have and will return for referenda votes on the constitution.

UCDVet

daheff wrote: »

As far as im concerned you want an irish vote you should have to pay irish taxes, even if you live abroad (like the us does) ...and a small flat rate if you live abroad but dont vote.

Not disagreeing - but it's worth mentioning that almost all US citizens living abroad pay 0 in US taxes. It's only exceptionally high earners that have any tax to pay.

TheBeardedLady

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I would not agree with the Passport = right to vote. There are thousands of Irish passport holders who have never set foot in Ireland.

I left home a while back and knew I would, by default, give up my right to have a say on how the country was run.

However, I have and will return for referenda votes on the constitution.

You also gave up your right to vote in those too.

UCDVet

As a non-EU immigrant living in Ireland for ~4 years or so

1.) Can I vote here?
2.) Does anyone want to buy my vote?

TheBeardedLady

UCDVet wrote: »

As a non-EU immigrant living in Ireland for ~4 years or so

1.) Can I vote here?
2.) Does anyone want to buy my vote?

1) No
2) How much?

Micky Dolenz

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

You also gave up your right to vote in those too.

No I didn't. They are permanent changes to a constitution in a country I will live in again. They have repercussions for the future the state goes in.

I have every intention of returning to Ireland. When I bought the house I used to live in, I know it would be my long term home and have no intention of selling it any time soon.

Local elections don't interest me enough to return to vote. Although I was around for the last general election, coincidently.

A lot of people who move away from Ireland set up lives and never return to live. My home is definitely in Ireland, I'm just away having the craic.

VinLieger

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

I have no interest in voting in Irish general elections anyway (too long out of the country) but I can't vote in the general elections of the country I've been resident in for over 5 years either (3 more years to go). I don't have the right to vote anywhere. That doesn't seem fair to me.

I believe a good compromise would be to allow Irish citizens to vote only if they can't/don't vote in their current country of residence. If they've opted to vote in the country they live in and they can, they shouldn't be allowed vote at home and a time limit should be put on it as well (8, for example. That's how much time is usually takes to get full residency in most countries and the right to vote - I also believe that after that time, most people would have no interest in voting anyway).

Thats another ridiculous idea, "the country i moved to doesnt allow me to vote so i want to vote somewhere else"? Thats a childs level of logic.

There is no way to gurantee anyone who moves away will ever return and have to deal with the consequences of a vote they have. Ireland is disproportionately going to be affected by anything like this as we have a much higher percentage of or population that are ex-pats than other countries who would be eligible to vote and strongly influence any vote one way or another and not have to deal directly with the consequences so comparing us to other countries is redundant.

And the attitude of the I have an interest in what happens at home does not hold any water either as an interest and being directly affected by something are two vastly different things. If the argument is my family is still at home well then they still get to vote don't they.

The whole concept is farcical and anybody who argues for it never actually thinks through the potential consequences of it for a country like Ireland with such a high percentage of people who would be eligible for it.

Mickeroo

Had no idea Irish citizens living abroad can't vote. Thought it was standard practice for any democracy to allow that sort of thing. Everyday's a school day.

Micky Dolenz

Mickeroo wrote: »

Had no idea Irish citizens living abroad can't vote. Thought it was standard practice for any democracy to allow that sort of thing. Everyday's a school day.

You do know there are literally thousands of Irish citizens who have never been, no mind lived in Ireland?

Mickeroo

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

You do know there are literally thousands of Irish citizens who have never been, no mind lived in Ireland?

Of course, thought they all had the right to vote just never/rarely exercised it. It's not really something Ive ever thought much about tbh though.

inforfun

Left my country almost 14 year ago, dont work, dont pay a cent in tax there, can still vote there.
Living here for 14 years, worked and paid tax all those years, cant vote (apart from European and local elections).

Something not right in that.

VinLieger

inforfun wrote: »

Left my country almost 14 year ago, dont work, dont pay a cent in tax there, can still vote there.
Living here for 14 years, worked and paid tax all those years, cant vote (apart from European and local elections).

Something not right in that.

I agree if you are a resident you should be able to vote. However I would ask about your home country can you honestly say it has as high an ex pat percentage compared to its home population as Ireland does? Also are more people abroad entitled to citizenship than actually live there?

Micky Dolenz

inforfun wrote: »

Left my country almost 14 year ago, dont work, dont pay a cent in tax there, can still vote there.
Living here for 14 years, worked and paid tax all those years, cant vote (apart from European and local elections).

Something not right in that.

Out of interest, can you get dual citizenship?

inforfun

VinLieger wrote: »

I agree if you are a resident you should be able to vote. However I would ask about your home country can you honestly say it has as high an ex pat percentage compared to its home population as Ireland does? Also are more people abroad entitled to citizenship than actually live there?

"Most likely not" will be the answer on both your questions, although succesive governments are working hard on that. There has been a brain drain going on for years now, replaced by "vote cattle".

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

daheff wrote: »

As far as im concerned you want an irish vote you should have to pay irish taxes, even if you live abroad (like the us does) ...and a small flat rate if you live abroad but dont vote.

Why? I can understand contributing if I wanted to vote but this would make no sense to me.

fasttalkerchat

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I would not agree with the Passport = right to vote. There are thousands of Irish passport holders who have never set foot in Ireland.

I left home a while back and knew I would, by default, give up my right to have a say on how the country was run.

However, I have and will return for referenda votes on the constitution.

But correct me if I'm wrong, previously you weren't doing this legally. Now you will have the right to vote in every election and referendum. How can you argue against being allowed to do something that you were doing previously.

seamus

daheff wrote: »

As far as im concerned you want an irish vote you should have to pay irish taxes, even if you live abroad (like the us does) ...and a small flat rate if you live abroad but dont vote.

I like this. OK, not the flat rate, I don't think there's any point in that, but I like inverting the "no taxation without representation" concept so that it becomes, "No representation without taxation".

I wonder just how many expats would still be feeling patriotic when they're told they have to pay income tax on their income into the country they love so dear.

VinLieger

seamus wrote: »

I like this. OK, not the flat rate, I don't think there's any point in that, but I like inverting the "no taxation without representation" concept so that it becomes, "No representation without taxation".

I wonder just how many expats would still be feeling patriotic when they're told they have to pay income tax on their income into the country they love so dear.

Very true, imo its pure selfishness the desire to vote on issues that will have no direct impact on their lives unless they return and IF they do return then they will be able to vote again.

inforfun

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Out of interest, can you get dual citizenship?

I dont know and i am not interested either in dual citizenship.
Born and raised in Holland so that is what i am, Dutch.

An extra passport wouldnt make me all of a sudden half Irish