Should Christians be celebrating Pagan Holidays such as Christmas?

Terrlock

Is it right for followers of the Lord to Celebrate Halloween, Christmas and Easter.

All these Holidays have Pagan roots, in which Christianity has basically tried to Christianize and incorporate them into their celebrations to the Lord.

However does this not go against what the scriptures teaches us not to use the ways of the Pagan's to worship the Lord.

Kirk Cameroon has a new movie called Saving Christmas which defends christian celebrating the Season.

Should we not be instead celebrating the Lords Feast days as he has given us in Scripture.

If there is a post already covering this topic please remove, I just didn't see one.

Peregrinus

Well, I have to point out that Sunday is a pagan festival, coming to us from the extremely pagan Babylonian culture, which created the seven-day week. The Jews had no difficulty in adopting that week, and celebrating one of its days as the sabbath, and the Christians had no difficulty about moving their celebration to another of it's days.

In short, taking over pagan festivals and "repurposing" them is something the People of God have been doing since forever, and there is abundant scriptural warrant for the practice.

JimiTime

Peregrinus wrote: »

In short, taking over pagan festivals and "repurposing" them is something the People of God have been doing since forever, and there is abundant scriptural warrant for the practice.

Could you elaborate on that in terms of the scriptural warrant for the practice?

Terrlock

According to scripture God created the 7 day week as we can see from Genesis I presume that the Babylonian's came after the initial creation period.

I can't find in scripture where it warrants the practice of using pagan festivals. I can however find the Lord warning against using them.

Can you please provide where in scripture it warrants it?

lazybones32

Christmas is the Christian celebration of the birth of Our Lord Jesus Christ (Christ's Mass). The Church never claimed He was born on the 25th of December but chose to celebrate it on that day. Scripture doesn't demand or denounce the celebration of the Word becoming flesh but the Church does.

Easter is a pagan festival but at this time, Christians celebrate the sufferings, death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Again, I don't think Scripture demands and prohibits celebration of these mysteries but the Church does. We know the date He died and the Irish Church caused a bit of furore when they insisted on celebrating it on it's anniversary, rather than ensuring that the celebration was held on a Friday and Sunday.

Halloween isn't a scriptural concept but the Church made November a month for remembering all dead people because people, being people, need and want to remember, honour and feel close to those who are no longer with us.

Point being: Christians are not celebrating the Pagan festivals but the Christian mysteries.


And scripture does indeed advise the People to celebrate their festivals (it's in one of the minor prophets). You do know the Jews in biblical times had new moon celebrations, right?Maybe the still do... Doesn't that sound a bit pagan?

homer911

Isn't Easter Sunday dictated by the moon?

The first Sunday after (but never on) the Paschal full moon. Theoretically, the Paschal full moon is the first full moon occurring on or after the spring equinox..

Terrlock

Easter comes from the worship of the Goddess Ishtar. Pretty much breaks the 1st commandment me thinks.

Manach

One: Gosh the clue is in the name.
Two: This is such an old Protestant canard that certain uses, attempting to link Paganism to the Church. It historically did not work with Cromwell, so a bit surprised to see it still in place.
Three: Christmas is a time of celebration of the family which is at the heart of Christian worship, only a bleak and individualistic self-interpretation of the Bible would find issue with it.
Four : To image in a historical context of Paul's outreach to the Gentiles that Christmas should not be celebrated as a means to embrace and extend the then holidays and make them their own ignores the joyous and celebratory aspect that writers like Chesterton mark as key to a merciful God.

Not to mark Christmas would be a wilful, deliberate and ahistorical misreading of the Birth of Christ,

Benny_Cake

Terrlock wrote: »

Easter comes from the worship of the Goddess Ishtar. Pretty much breaks the 1st commandment me thinks.

I hadn't heard that before - this article from Scientific American seems to indicate it's something of an urban legend:

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/2013/03/31/beyond-ishtar-the-tradition-of-eggs-at-easter/

Terrlock

Manach wrote: »

One: Gosh the clue is in the name.
Two: This is such an old Protestant canard that certain uses, attempting to link Paganism to the Church. It historically did not work with Cromwell, so a bit surprised to see it still in place.
Three: Christmas is a time of celebration of the family which is at the heart of Christian worship, only a bleak and individualistic self-interpretation of the Bible would find issue with it.
Four : To image in a historical context of Paul's outreach to the Gentiles that Christmas should not be celebrated as a means to embrace and extend the then holidays and make them their own ignores the joyous and celebratory aspect that writers like Chesterton mark as key to a merciful God.

Not to mark Christmas would be a wilful, deliberate and ahistorical misreading of the Birth of Christ,

What do you mean by Church?

Cromwell's invasion of Ireland was sanctioned by the Pope at the time.



Also how would not to mark Christmas be a willful, deliberate and historical mis reading of the birth of Christ - I guess more the question here is what scriptural evidence points to the current Christmas period as being Birth of Christ?

I still can't find any scriptural basis for celebrating Christmas, however throughout the scriptures it warns against it.

Festus

Terrlock wrote: »

Cromwell's invasion of Ireland was sanctioned by the Pope at the time.

I'm not a historian but I find this interesting. Do you have a source or citation for this?

jimd2

Terrlock wrote: »

Is it right for followers of the Lord to Celebrate Halloween, Christmas and Easter.

All these Holidays have Pagan roots, in which Christianity has basically tried to Christianize and incorporate them into their celebrations to the Lord.

However does this not go against what the scriptures teaches us not to use the ways of the Pagan's to worship the Lord.

Kirk Cameroon has a new movie called Saving Christmas which defends christian celebrating the Season.

Should we not be instead celebrating the Lords Feast days as he has given us in Scripture.

If there is a post already covering this topic please remove, I just didn't see one.

Absolutely, it is a celebration of Christ's birth and the vast majority of Irish people have grown up celebrating it for that very reason.

But, since you are so interested in who should or should not be celebrating the upcoming festive season why dont you tip over to the Atheist forum and ask do they feel that they should be celebrating Christmas like the rest of us?

katydid

Terrlock wrote: »

Is it right for followers of the Lord to Celebrate Halloween, Christmas and Easter.

All these Holidays have Pagan roots, in which Christianity has basically tried to Christianize and incorporate them into their celebrations to the Lord.

However does this not go against what the scriptures teaches us not to use the ways of the Pagan's to worship the Lord.

Kirk Cameroon has a new movie called Saving Christmas which defends christian celebrating the Season.

Should we not be instead celebrating the Lords Feast days as he has given us in Scripture.

If there is a post already covering this topic please remove, I just didn't see one.

Having pagan roots is not the same as being pagan. Christianity used pagan ceremonies and concepts and adapted them. If anything, that's all the more reason to celebrate them - one can see it as the triumph of Christianity over Paganism...

Peregrinus

JimiTime wrote: »

Could you elaborate on that in terms of the scriptural warrant for the practice?

Well, Ex 23:12, for example.

Peregrinus

Terrlock wrote: »

According to scripture God created the 7 day week as we can see from Genesis I presume that the Babylonian's came after the initial creation period.

I can't find in scripture where it warrants the practice of using pagan festivals. I can however find the Lord warning against using them.

Can you please provide where in scripture it warrants it?

The Babylonians came well after creation, but well before Genesis was written. When the Israelites produced the Book of Genesis, they already had a seven-day week which they had acquired from the Babylonians. One of the functions of Genesis is to explain why they attribute a religious significance to the seventh day, and attach certain observances to it.

Peregrinus

Terrlock wrote: »

Easter comes from the worship of the Goddess Ishtar. Pretty much breaks the 1st commandment me thinks.

The word "Easter", used only by English-speaking Christians, is thought to come from an Indo-European root meaning "dawn". It's possible, but not certain, that the name of the Babylonian fertility goddess Ishtar comes from the same root, but if so the two words descend separately; "Easter" certainly does not come from "Ishtar".

The festival that English-speakers call "Easter" is much older than the English word, and in most parts of the world has never been called by that name or any similar name; it's called by various names which all descend from the Hebrew Pesach, Passover. And there's a bit of a clue there to the real roots of the Christian festival. It has never had anything to do with the worship of Ishtar. People who suggest that it did have clearly not given the matter much thought.

It's worth pointing out that if the word "Easter" possibly has pagan roots, the word "God" definitely does; it comes to us from the Germanic languages, and originally referred to the norse/pagan gods. Those who think that the festival is somehow paganised by English-speaking Christians applying the word "Easter" to it must accept that it follows the whole Christian religion is paganised by English-speaking Christians applying the word "God" to the Divinity.

Peregrinus

Festus wrote: »

I'm not a historian but I find this interesting. Do you have a source or citation for this?

I think Terrlock is possibly confusing Cromwell with either Henry II or (more likely) William of Orange, both of whom did enjoy papal backing. Cromwell certainly did not.

Peregrinus

homer911 wrote: »

Isn't Easter Sunday dictated by the moon?

Yes, it is, because it comes from the Jewish festival of Pesach, and the Jewish festival was fixed by the lunar character which the Israelites acquired from the Babylonians. All the Jewish festivals were fixed by the phases of the moon. Easter is unusual because it's fixed by the moon and the sun; its the first Sunday after the first full moon following the northern vernal equinox. It's this combination of lunar and solar referents which causes the festival to bounce around the calendar in such a notable way.

Terrlock

jimd2 wrote: »

Absolutely, it is a celebration of Christ's birth and the vast majority of Irish people have grown up celebrating it for that very reason.

But, since you are so interested in who should or should not be celebrating the upcoming festive season why don't you tip over to the Atheist forum and ask do they feel that they should be celebrating Christmas like the rest of us?

I'm not an Atheist. I'm a christian and I'm interested in christian views on this.

tommy2bad

Terrlock wrote: »

I'm not an Atheist. I'm a christian and I'm interested in christian views on this.

Yet you use quotations from the old testament i.e. Jewish, to support the argument that christians should not celebrate CHRISTmass because it's pagan?

Theirs a school of thought that taking pagan things and making them christian is only bringing to completion these things which foreshadow the incarnation but that might depend on your sensibilities.

Terrlock

tommy2bad wrote: »

Yet you use quotations from the old testament i.e. Jewish, to support the argument that christians should not celebrate CHRISTmass because it's pagan?

Theirs a school of thought that taking pagan things and making them christian is only bringing to completion these things which foreshadow the incarnation but that might depend on your sensibilities.

That's interesting could you elaborate on this school of thought.

LeinsterDub

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, I have to point out that Sunday is a pagan festival, coming to us from the extremely pagan Babylonian culture, which

How do you be extremely pagan? Isn't paganism an all or nothing deal?

Terrlock

tommy2bad wrote: »

Yet you use quotations from the old testament i.e. Jewish, to support the argument that christians should not celebrate CHRISTmass because it's pagan?

Why shouldn't a christian use the Old Testament? Do you view it as just for Jews?

Question for you, is the Old testament not for all of Israel, not just the Jews?

Tabnabs

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's worth pointing out that if the word "Easter" possibly has pagan roots, the word "God" definitely does; it comes to us from the Germanic languages, and originally referred to the norse/pagan gods.

Who in turn took it from the Proto-Indo-European word ghut- "that which is invoked". But yeah, they weren't christians either...

Terrlock

So can we at least establish Halloween and Easter are both of Pagan origin.


As such should Christians be celebrating these holidays?

Is there any harm in celebrating Halloween, Christmas and Easter as they are?

This scripture seems very similar to what a lot of Christians do every year in regards to putting up a Christmas tree.

Jer. 10:2-4 -Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

lazybones32

Terrlock wrote: »

So can we at least establish Halloween and Easter are both of Pagan origin.


As such should Christians be celebrating these holidays?

Is there any harm in celebrating Halloween, Christmas and Easter as they are?

This scripture seems very similar to what a lot of Christians do every year in regards to putting up a Christmas tree.

Jer. 10:2-4 -Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

No-one is saying that Halloween and Easter aren't pagan holidays: Samhain is the time when the Celts believed the spirit world was closest to the physical world but having children dressing up as pirates or spongebob doesn't mean they are divining with spirits and worshiping idols. I haven't a proper understanding on what Easter was a celebration of (the return of Spring?) but the Christian celebration isn't about Nature...it's about Christ.

Festus

Terrlock wrote: »

So can we at least establish Halloween and Easter are both of Pagan origin.

No we cannot. All Hallows may coincide with harvest festivals but All Hallows has no pagan origins. The celebration of the Saints and Souls of the faithful departed is purely Christian in origin.
Easter follows the Jewish Passover as it cannot precede it and they are intimately linked but the last time I looked the Jews were not pagans. Again Easter is purely Christian as it is the celebration of Our Lords Resurrection.

Festus

lazybones32 wrote: »

No-one is saying that Halloween and Easter aren't pagan holidays:

I am

catallus

There are only so many days in the year. It is obvious that some Christian holidays will fall at the same time as other older celebratory days. This does not suggest any connection with them. Easter a pagan holiday? That's just offensive!

tommy2bad

Terrlock wrote: »

That's interesting could you elaborate on this school of thought.

It's a notion I think from CS Lewis so if you get the chance read some (make that all) of his books.

As to the Jewish origins of easter, thats not a controversial idea, the xian easter is a fulfilment of the Passover, the two are tied together like eggs and chickens. Yes Pascha coincides with the timing of a pagan festival but is not a variation of the pagan festival,it's a 100% xian festival. The name easter comes from the name of the month in the old english calendar when Pascha happened.
I just am pointing out that we are not Jews, Hebrews or Israelites, we are christians. Part of a tradition that starts with the hebrews but not confined by hebrew tradition.
We are the Easter people and Hallelujah is our song. Used to be my sig here one time.

Terrlock

tommy2bad wrote: »

It's a notion I think from CS Lewis so if you get the chance read some (make that all) of his books.

As to the Jewish origins of easter, thats not a controversial idea, the xian easter is a fulfilment of the Passover, the two are tied together like eggs and chickens. Yes Pascha coincides with the timing of a pagan festival but is not a variation of the pagan festival,it's a 100% xian festival. The name easter comes from the name of the month in the old english calendar when Pascha happened.
I just am pointing out that we are not Jews, Hebrews or Israelites, we are christians. Part of a tradition that starts with the hebrews but not confined by hebrew tradition.
We are the Easter people and Hallelujah is our song. Used to be my sig here one time.

Pascha is derived from the Hebrew word pesach as there is no original Greek word for Passover - it means passover not easter.

Passover was still celebrated in the New Testament after the death of Christ.




I don't see any issue with celebrating Passover as this is authorized by the scriptures, not just for the Jewish people but for all of Israel.


The Jewish people only consist of 2 of the tribes who came out of Egypt in Exodus, the other 10 were scattered throughout the nations of the earth.

So to say we are not Israelites, does not mean we are not descendant from them. And the Lords promise to Abraham were for his descendants.


Easter itself is of pagan origin, and is derived from Eastre, the goddess of Spring who goes all the way back to the Tower of Babel, she was the wife of Nimrod who was worshiped later as the God Baal and she was also known as the Queen of Heaven.

False religion came from this time period with sun and moon worship, along with false priests, astrology, demonic worship, human sacrifice...etc

There should be better ways of celebrating Christ resurrection then adopting pagan celebrations in remembrance of Christ.


PS. I will definitely have a read of C.S. Lewis

Terrlock

catallus wrote: »

There are only so many days in the year. It is obvious that some Christian holidays will fall at the same time as other older celebratory days. This does not suggest any connection with them. Easter a pagan holiday? That's just offensive!

Ok where do the easter eggs come from?

Or how about the easter bunny?

They come from pagan practices.

Sure celebrate Christs resurrection, but don't call it after a false God and don't include pagan rituals with it.

Terrlock

Festus wrote: »

No we cannot. All Hallows may coincide with harvest festivals but All Hallows has no pagan origins. The celebration of the Saints and Souls of the faithful departed is purely Christian in origin.

Halloween is definitely pagan in origin and comes from the early Celts thousands of years ago, During roman times it was merged with two other Roman feasts for the dead, called Pomona Day and Feralia.

Feralia was held on Feb. 21st and was the day to honor the dead, but like other Roman holidays, was filled with drunkenness and orgies.

Pomona Day was November 1st and was the day to honor the Goddess Pomona, who was the goddess of Fruit, trees and fertility. Her symbol was the Apple hence the game bobbing for apples, which used to be a box of water and apples that was sitting on top of a pentagram painted on the ground.


in the 3rd and 4th century the Catholic church decided that instead of having multiple days for remembering the Dead saints and martyrs, it was agreed there should only be one....For All Saints.

By the way if your were a martyr at the time you automatically became a saint.

This was both a political and Catholic decision to do so and turn it into one day for praying to the dead saints.

Originally the date for All Saints was May 13th which was also to replace the Roman Lemuria Festival which was a major pagan festival where the head of the house hold would get up at midnight to perform a ritual to exercise and remove dead spirits from his home.

In 741AD Pope Gregory III moved All saints day to November 1st to coincide with Samhains day(Halloween) in order to Christianize that also.

So the Catholic church was basically taking over the pagan festivals of Rome and the Celts and replacing them with the Catholic All Saints day.

Now is that a bad thing?

I mean why not take over these pagan festivals and Christianize them?

However during Halloween we have many Christians still celebrating the pagan customs, such as dressing their kids up to go trick or treating, bobbing for apples...etc...

katydid

Terrlock wrote: »

Halloween is definitely pagan in origin and comes from the early Celts thousands of years ago, During roman times it was merged with two other Roman feasts for the dead, called Pomona Day and Feralia.

Feralia was held on Feb. 21st and was the day to honor the dead, but like other Roman holidays, was filled with drunkenness and orgies.

Pomona Day was November 1st and was the day to honor the Goddess Pomona, who was the goddess of Fruit, trees and fertility. Her symbol was the Apple hence the game bobbing for apples, which used to be a box of water and apples that was sitting on top of a pentagram painted on the ground.


in the 3rd and 4th century the Catholic church decided that instead of having multiple days for remembering the Dead saints and martyrs, it was agreed there should only be one....For All Saints.

By the way if your were a martyr at the time you automatically became a saint.

This was both a political and Catholic decision to do so and turn it into one day for praying to the dead saints.

Originally the date for All Saints was May 13th which was also to replace the Roman Lemuria Festival which was a major pagan festival where the head of the house hold would get up at midnight to perform a ritual to exercise and remove dead spirits from his home.

In 741AD Pope Gregory III moved All saints day to November 1st to coincide with Samhains day(Halloween) in order to Christianize that also.

So the Catholic church was basically taking over the pagan festivals of Rome and the Celts and replacing them with the Catholic All Saints day.

Now is that a bad thing?

I mean why not take over these pagan festivals and Christianize them?

However during Halloween we have many Christians still celebrating the pagan customs, such as dressing their kids up to go trick or treating, bobbing for apples...etc...

I really don't see the point of this thread. Yes, Christian festivals have Pagan origins, but that doesn't mean Christian festival are Pagan.
And yes, people still carry on Pagan traditions like Halloween, but they don't conflate it with Christianity.

Nothing to talk about.

Terrlock

katydid wrote: »

I really don't see the point of this thread. Yes, Christian festivals have Pagan origins, but that doesn't mean Christian festival are Pagan.
And yes, people still carry on Pagan traditions like Halloween, but they don't conflate it with Christianity.

Nothing to talk about.

There is a point to the thread. The Lord warns against using pagan ways to worship him throughout his word.

If your a christian and follow the Lord it is important to test all things through his word and establish if they are of God or not.

Narrow is the Gate and ignorance of God's word, commandments and teachings won't save you.

Repent and believe in Christ, Ask for his Holy Spirit to enter your heart and change you from the inside out. Study his word, get to know him as your lord and savior and stay away from the customs of the world and the wicked.

tommy2bad

Terrlock wrote: »

There is a point to the thread. The Lord warns against using pagan ways to worship him throughout his word.

If your a christian and follow the Lord it is important to test all things through his word and establish if they are of God or not.

Narrow is the Gate and ignorance of God's word, commandments and teachings won't save you.

Repent and believe in Christ, Ask for his Holy Spirit to enter your heart and change you from the inside out. Study his word, get to know him as your lord and savior and stay away from the customs of the world and the wicked.

I suspect your problem is less with pagans than with popes.
This kind of extreme protestant rhetoric is nonsense. Fundamentalism (emphasis on the mental part) at its worst. It is literalistic and simplistic. Faith is a far more nuanced and complex than your idiotic world view.

desertcircus

To answer a semi-serious question put earlier in the thread: a lot of atheists do celebrate Christmas, we just don't celebrate it as a religious festival. Modern tellings of A Christmas Carol (I don't know the original well enough to comment) give a pretty good illustration of how and why an atheist would celebrate.

cart man

Terrlock wrote: »

However during Halloween we have many Christians still celebrating the pagan customs, such as dressing their kids up to go trick or treating, bobbing for apples...etc...

I asked a few of the kids that bobbed some apples about the pagan gods they were celebrating, they looked up at me puzzled and went back to playing their game.

From my small sample I am going to make a rather large jump to say for most people in the 21st century Halloween has nothing to do with either pagan or christian worship, it is just about having fun.

Also looking at costumes this year I am unsure what gods are being worshipped by the "sexy nurses" etc

Festus

desertcircus wrote: »

To answer a semi-serious question put earlier in the thread: a lot of atheists do celebrate Christmas, we just don't celebrate it as a religious festival. Modern tellings of A Christmas Carol (I don't know the original well enough to comment) give a pretty good illustration of how and why an atheist would celebrate.

Charles Dickens who penned "a Christmas Carol" said

‘I have always striven in my writings to express the veneration for the life and lessons of our Savior…’

Perhaps it is time for you to read the original unabridged version

Terrlock

tommy2bad wrote: »

I suspect your problem is less with pagans than with popes.
This kind of extreme protestant rhetoric is nonsense. Fundamentalism (emphasis on the mental part) at its worst. It is literalistic and simplistic. Faith is a far more nuanced and complex than your idiotic world view.

Can you back this viewpoint up from scripture?

Festus

St Pauls Letter to the Romans is worth a read. Chapter 1 should be enough.

Think about this for a minute. God created man and thereby instilled in man a desire for God.

now that you have spent a full minute thinking about that consider this:

The Jews knew God but outside of Judaism they were left to their own devices. These "pagans" saw God in the world around them but had no understanding or guidance other that what was written on their hearts by God. They set up their own festivals and feasts to honour and glorify the God they knew in their hearts was out there.
Over time in some cases these festivals became corrupted due to the fallen nature of man.

When Christianity arrived and the Gospel was spread it became clear to them. They now knew God and their festivals were turned away from the gods they now knew to be false turned to the One True God. They also turn away from pagan ways of worship to Christian ways of worship. It matters not that dates coincided. What matters is that pagan methods and corruption of worship were removed.

What would it have said if the early Christians had kept festivals to false gods separate from feasts glorifying God?

katydid

Terrlock wrote: »

There is a point to the thread. The Lord warns against using pagan ways to worship him throughout his word.

If your a christian and follow the Lord it is important to test all things through his word and establish if they are of God or not.

Narrow is the Gate and ignorance of God's word, commandments and teachings won't save you.

Repent and believe in Christ, Ask for his Holy Spirit to enter your heart and change you from the inside out. Study his word, get to know him as your lord and savior and stay away from the customs of the world and the wicked.

Since no one is using pagan ways to do anything, I repeat that I fail to see the point of this thread...

tommy2bad

Terrlock wrote: »

Can you back this viewpoint up from scripture?

From scripture? Ahh I see the problem now, Sola scriptura versus Prima scriptura. I can only assume your a member of one pf the anababtist congregations in which case we will never see eye to eye on this.
If sola is your guide then go find your own justification for not celebrating the event that defines Christianity and redeemed mankind. If otoh you adopt a prima approach you have access to tradition and reason as well. Both of which contribution to how we see celebrations and their importance in faith and the life of the church.

Festus

Does anyone see what is really happening here?

The world, in the hands of secular forces and political leaders who leave their Christianity, if they have any, at the door of their offices, and their socialist legislators, have taken the Christian festivals and made them pagan.

Christmas is in the secular world now about presents and stockings (and not the ones you hang on the mantle piece either). The Christian focus is gone.
At last years office secret santa someone put in a mug that had "happy Birthday Jesus" on it. When the recipient opened it there was an embarrassed laugh around the office and comments not worth repeating here.

Easter is now about sweets and chocolates. Because Easter is solely a Christian festival, and being the most important day in the Christian calendar secularizing it may take a little longer. But they're working on it...

Add to that the news that next years St. Patrick's Day parade in New York is probably going to be a gay pride festival that's another religious holiday gone pagan.

With this in mind it really is baffling that some so called Christians call into question the origins of the two most important Christian feast days - His Birth and His Resurrection.

tommy2bad

Festus wrote: »

Does anyone see what is really happening here?

The world, in the hands of secular forces and political leaders who leave their Christianity, if they have any, at the door of their offices, and their socialist legislators, have taken the Christian festivals and made them pagan.

Christmas is in the secular world now about presents and stockings (and not the ones you hang on the mantle piece either). The Christian focus is gone.
At last years office secret santa someone put in a mug that had "happy Birthday Jesus" on it. When the recipient opened it there was an embarrassed laugh around the office and comments not worth repeating here.

Easter is now about sweets and chocolates. Because Easter is solely a Christian festival, and being the most important day in the Christian calendar secularizing it may take a little longer. But they're working on it...

Add to that the news that next years St. Patrick's Day parade in New York is probably going to be a gay pride festival that's another religious holiday gone pagan.

With this in mind it really is baffling that some so called Christians call into question the origins of the two most important Christian feast days - His Birth and His Resurrection.

Oh I don't think theirs a secular plot to erase christmas, it just that their are fewer and fewer christians to hold it as christian only.
Easter is going the same way, as to St Patricks day? well we only have ourselves to blame for that one, St Paddys day is Ireland's national day like 4'th July or St'Georges day. In other words it was secular to start with.

Festus

tommy2bad wrote: »

Oh I don't think theirs a secular plot to erase christmas, it just that their are fewer and fewer christians to hold it as christian only.
Easter is going the same way, as to St Patricks day? well we only have ourselves to blame for that one, St Paddys day is Ireland's national day like 4'th July or St'Georges day. In other words it was secular to start with.

Move to disagree on the St. Patrick's Gay Parade. We can lay the blame for that one squarely on Cardinal Dolan.

I think he's one of the cardinals Pope Francis had in mind when he said "May God forgive you for what you have done"

tommy2bad

St. Patrick's Gay Parade, love it!
My point being that as the parade is secular and about celebrating Irishness (what ever the f*** that is) inclusivity is important or are we trying to imply, no overtly say that gay people are not welcome in or existing in Ireland. If the parade was a catholic parade then the rcc could set the rules but untill then.

Terrlock

tommy2bad wrote: »

From scripture? Ahh I see the problem now, Sola scriptura versus Prima scriptura. I can only assume your a member of one pf the anababtist congregations in which case we will never see eye to eye on this.
If sola is your guide then go find your own justification for not celebrating the event that defines Christianity and redeemed mankind. If otoh you adopt a prima approach you have access to tradition and reason as well. Both of which contribution to how we see celebrations and their importance in faith and the life of the church.

I'm not a part of any congregation. However should we all not be taking the Bible seriously.

I quoted previously from the old testament about this topic, however let me go to the new Testament.


I think when you read this, it speaks for itself.

2Co 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?
2Co 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you.


Can anyone back up these holidays from a biblical standpoint?

tommy2bad

Terrlock wrote: »

Can anyone back up these holidays from a biblical standpoint?

Why should we? do we need scriptural support for every thing we do as christians? I'm not sure if your serious or not but looking for a proof text for celebrating the death and resurrection is not seeing the wood for the trees.
The entire bible, old and new testament lead to the passion and resurrection. If we neglect that what exactly is christianity? A set of morals and manners?, a sub sect of judaism?
It's part of human nature to mark the year with celebrations, as christians we mark it with christian ones, timed to the times natural in the turn of the year. Yes this is what most cultures do and so their will be overlap and coincidence of times but to assume that because of this the christian aspect is to be rejected is baby and bathwater stuff.

Scripture is not the final word for us, we have our reason to judge with and tradition to guide us. Scripture is not a list of whats permitted, all else is forbidden, you do scripture a disservice.

Benny_Cake

If you're married, then are you wearing a wedding ring? That has pagan origins. Use the names of days of the week and months? All named after pagan gods.

If someone doesn't want to celebrate Christmas or Easter, that's their perogative. But it's a little much to criticise other Christians who choose remember the birth of Christ or His resurrection though. It seems like the very worst sort of legalism.

Terrlock, I'd be interested to know what holidays you think it would be OK for Christians to celebrate? How about birthdays?

Festus

tommy2bad wrote: »

St. Patrick's Gay Parade, love it!
My point being that as the parade is secular and about celebrating Irishness (what ever the f*** that is) inclusivity is important or are we trying to imply, no overtly say that gay people are not welcome in or existing in Ireland. If the parade was a catholic parade then the rcc could set the rules but untill then.

So Saint Patricks Day Parades are Not about celebrating a great saint...

Interesting. I wonder why they name them after a saint then...

I also wonder what the pagan origin of this feast is.