Dosing lambs

Green farmer

Have a few lambs here back scouring again. Anybody else have this at the moment ? I dosed about 4-5 weeks ago (clear dose) and it cleaned them up but some are back scouring. Anyone know if coccidia is about at this time of year ? Anyway I took some samples and posted to the lab today.

eire23

Green farmer wrote: »

Have a few lambs here back scouring again. Anybody else have this at the moment ? I dosed about 4-5 weeks ago (clear dose) and it cleaned them up but some are back scouring. Anyone know if coccidia is about at this time of year ? Anyway I took some samples and posted to the lab today.

Not sure could coccidia could be a problem at this time of year, but i had a similar problem with lambs scouring. Samples came back clear so was kind of unsure what to do. Someone suggested giving them a dose of copper, so went it.http://www.naturalstockcareshop.co.uk/cattle-care/copper-cobalt-1-litre/ Gave them this. The difference was unreal, they dried up, looked far healthier and thrive seemed to take off. Getting some blood tested on friday to see what the story is regards mineral diffencies or was it just a concidence.

Cran

Green farmer wrote: »

Have a few lambs here back scouring again. Anybody else have this at the moment ? I dosed about 4-5 weeks ago (clear dose) and it cleaned them up but some are back scouring. Anyone know if coccidia is about at this time of year ? Anyway I took some samples and posted to the lab today.

I would think minerals or fluke, if fluke you ll know quickly though as they ll die....

Green farmer

Has me baffled. I was thinking coccidia as had them well dosed against the rest of the worms .Their getting meal so most are thriving away. But the odd few have very dirty ends. I'd be surprised if fluke as ground is dry, but who knows !!!. I'll see what the labs say but it's interesting about the copper. I give them cobalt drenches regularly enough but don't think theirs any copper in it. Type of thing you'd be afraid to give them in case it kills them. If the results don't sort it out, I'll source copper and try one of two on it and see if it makes a difference. There's a well known breeder a few miles from me and his pretty adamant that copper is lacking around these parts. Very soft animals are sheep. You need to have so many things going right to get them out the gate!!!

rangler1

Green farmer wrote: »

Has me baffled. Their getting meal so most are thriving away. But the odd few have very dirty ends. I'd be surprised if fluke as ground is dry, but who knows !!!. I'll see what the labs say but it's interesting about the copper. I give them cobalt drenches regularly enough but don't think theirs any copper in it. Type of thing you'd be afraid to give them in case it kills them. If the results don't sort it out, I'll some copper and try one of two on it and see if it makes a difference. There's a well known breeder a few miles from me and his pretty adamant that copper is lacking around these parts. Very soft animals are sheep. You need to have so many things going right to get them out the gate!!!

Mystery of lamb thrive, eh ,
Adult rams never looked well here, always looked rubbish, not great for a pedigree breeder if someone wants to see the sires, totally different sheep since I started using copper for the last two years,
Used copper this year for the first time on lambs, lambs looked well all year but can't really go by performance this year, everything was thriving,
I think if my Texel x Lleyn ewes aren't getting copper poisoning when they're dosed with it, they have to be copper deficient without it.
HAVE TO BE CAREFUL WITH IT THOUGH

Green farmer

I've to sort it one way or other. Still have loads of April born lambs here. Disheartening to have them on decent grass, well dosed and give them the ordinary cobalt at the same time. If it turns out not to be worms, the copper seems like a good lead !!! I was going to go and buy vecoxan at €120 a bottle, when decided to go to lab instead. Even without lab results yet ,I'm glad I didn't, could have been money down the drain !!! .

rangler1

Green farmer wrote: »

I've to sort it one way or other. Still have loads of April born lambs here. Disheartening to have them on decent grass, well dosed and give them the ordinary cobalt at the same time. If it turns out not to be worms, the copper seems like a good lead !!! I was going to go and buy vecoxan at €120 a bottle, when decided to go to lab instead. Even without lab results yet ,I'm glad I didn't, could have been money down the drain !!! .

Ask the lab about testing the livers, we got that done, it's supposed to be more accurate copper test and the factory vet (camolin) didn't mind sampling the lambs

Green farmer

Thanks rangler, it's only dung samples I've sent away. But next time I'm getting lambs killed, I'll arrange for the livers to be tested.

Green farmer

Forgot to add, it would be nicer to know I just had a vitamin issue then another parasite problem with them. Between the flystrike, worms , crows, foxes , the sheep don't get much peace.

sea12

Green. I have the very same problem. Fierce ****ty back ends. Had them dosed several times for worms and changed the type of dose. But no difference. Were on meal and great grass. Most killed now but only a few left but still ****ty. Must look into the copper issue myself.

Rangler can the vet at factory do the test on site.

greysides

sea12 wrote: »

Green. I have the very same problem. Fierce ****ty back ends. Had them dosed several times for worms and changed the type of dose. But no difference. Were on meal and great grass. Most killed now but only a few left but still ****ty. Must look into the copper issue myself.

You can get nematodirus out-of-season too.

Rangler can the vet at factory do the test on site.

No, just take the samples.

paddysdream

greysides wrote: »

You can get nematodirus out-of-season too.




No, just take the samples.

Got a dose of this last year.Lambs dosed late August(ivermectin type).This was after dung samples showed lowish worm burden ie borderline worthwhile dosing.Late September/October lambs started to lose thrive and lost 4 or 5.Very scoury.Few weak ones

Brought few to vet as both he and I were convinced it couldn't be worms,must be cocci/fluke etc etc .Tests showed up massive worm burden.Just missed the late nematodirus bloom with my dose and/or dose was ineffective.
Dosed all with a white drench and saw good improvement.

The above might not be your specific problem but worth looking at the simple answers first before going down the route of chasing exotic and sometimes improbable solutions

rangler1

sea12 wrote: »

Green. I have the very same problem. Fierce ****ty back ends. Had them dosed several times for worms and changed the type of dose. But no difference. Were on meal and great grass. Most killed now but only a few left but still ****ty. Must look into the copper issue myself.

Rangler can the vet at factory do the test on site.

No It's a bit of a job, collect the samples from the factory and bring them to the lab....not simple

razor8

Had lambs here stall for about 3 weeks, gave half a copper bolus last Friday and weighed last nite and half I have done did a great drive in just 5 days from 200 to 380 grams a day and no meal, got a grass sample done as well and copper locked up here

dglhills

Green farmer wrote: »

I've to sort it one way or other. Still have loads of April born lambs here. Disheartening to have them on decent grass, well dosed and give them the ordinary cobalt at the same time. If it turns out not to be worms, the copper seems like a good lead !!! I was going to go and buy vecoxan at €120 a bottle, when decided to go to lab instead. Even without lab results yet ,I'm glad I didn't, could have been money down the drain !!! .

I regularly speak to the vet about mineral deficiencies and his opinion on liquid cobalt is not very good, he reckons liquid cobalt might do a sick animal in a shed but in his words as regards lambs in a field you might as well pour it over them as they dont retain it unless you want to dose them every few days. This year I used the Mayo healthcare lamb bolus with copper and can honestly say there is a significant improvement in my ewe lambs, they're hill lambs kept on the hill and the forage available to them is lacking in everything even colour.
With regards Coccidiosis I would be slow to rule it out, if the scour has any blood in it or mucous or looks 'different'. It has turned up here with late lambs being fed outside before and showed up in the dung sample.
Just a few things might be worth considering.

ganmo

3 days is what we were told cobalt hangs around for.
i have no confidence in the doses that say their cobalt hangs around for longer.

Username John

dglhills wrote: »

I regularly speak to the vet about mineral deficiencies and his opinion on liquid cobalt is not very good, he reckons liquid cobalt might do a sick animal in a shed but in his words as regards lambs in a field you might as well pour it over them as they dont retain it unless you want to dose them every few days. This year I used the Mayo healthcare lamb bolus with copper and can honestly say there is a significant improvement in my ewe lambs, they're hill lambs kept on the hill and the forage available to them is lacking in everything even colour.
With regards Coccidiosis I would be slow to rule it out, if the scour has any blood in it or mucous or looks 'different'. It has turned up here with late lambs being fed outside before and showed up in the dung sample.
Just a few things might be worth considering.

Is this what you gave the lambs?
http://www.mayohealthcare.ie/cobalt_lambs.html
How much for the pack of 250?

What age did you give it to them? At weaning time?

dglhills

Username John wrote: »

Is this what you gave the lambs?

How much for the pack of 250?

What age did you give it to them? At weaning time?

Thats them. I gave them one when they were going out onto the hill at 4-6 weeks they got one a clipping time and again at weaning, I am happy with them.

RightHalfBack

razor8 wrote: »

Had lambs here stall for about 3 weeks, gave half a copper bolus last Friday and weighed last nite and half I have done did a great drive in just 5 days from 200 to 380 grams a day and no meal, got a grass sample done as well and copper locked up here

Just wondered the cost of the grass sample razor? might complete same myself.. had been giving mineral lick buckets last year and was getting ones with no added copper, then had a few lambs with swayback so would be interesting to see grass results.

I wonder how closely the grass results would mirror a sheeps blood sample results? the sheep would need to be free from any mineral supplemantation \ bolus etc to accureately measure i suppose,

Green farmer

Lads,

Still waiting for lab results, but just say it wasn't cooper related, would I do any harm giving them the mineral drench with cooper added ? ie would giving it to once cause any side effects, or would copper over dosing only cause harm over a long period of time ? Which wouldn't be an issue when dealing with lambs who won't be around for long anyway.

razor8

RightHalfBack wrote: »

Just wondered the cost of the grass sample razor? might complete same myself.. had been giving mineral lick buckets last year and was getting ones with no added copper, then had a few lambs with swayback so would be interesting to see grass results.

I wonder how closely the grass results would mirror a sheeps blood sample results? the sheep would need to be free from any mineral supplemantation \ bolus etc to accureately measure i suppose,

IAS labs charged €75

Sample showed reasonable level of copper but I am told the high molybdenum and sulphur is locking it up so sheep not getting any benefit from it

I'm sure when this problem is sorted something else will crop up for me!

RightHalfBack

I remember the Old man telling me one time, about years ago and some of the local farmers would give their lambs beef nuts (which would have been high in Copper). Apparently the lambs would thrive very well, but if they didnt sell the lamb quickly enough or kept giving the beef nuts for too long that the lambs would get sick or could die,

So i suppose the small bit of copper was helping them initially but then too much of it was very harmful,

rangler1

RightHalfBack wrote: »

I remember the Old man telling me one time, about years ago and some of the local farmers would give their lambs beef nuts (which would have been high in Copper). Apparently the lambs would thrive very well, but if they didnt sell the lamb quickly enough or kept giving the beef nuts for too long that the lambs would get sick or could die,

So i suppose the small bit of copper was helping them initially but then too much of it was very harmful,

It's supposed to be a natural growth promoter

ganmo

Green farmer wrote: »

Lads,

Still waiting for lab results, but just say it wasn't cooper related, would I do any harm giving them the mineral drench with cooper added ? ie would giving it to once cause any side effects, or would copper over dosing only cause harm over a long period of time ? Which wouldn't be an issue when dealing with lambs who won't be around for long anyway.

Copper is stored very well in the liver,so one large dose of copper isn't as big a risk as a few smaller doses.

If ya do give em the copper dose before the results come back keep em on meal if they are on meal

fanadman1

razor8 wrote: »

IAS labs charged €75

Sample showed reasonable level of copper but I am told the high molybdenum and sulphur is locking it up so sheep not getting any benefit from it

I'm sure when this problem is sorted something else will crop up for me!

could I ask where u sent the sample had problems getting my lambs thriving this year

Green farmer

I spoke with two neighbouring farmers to see if there was a history in the area of any deficiencies in the soil. Both said the area is deficient in lime, which surprised me as we've lime in the drinking water from the well. They told me that a farm up the road was spreading lime recently. Anyone know what effects this could have on sheep. I think soil tests are the next port of call if dung samples didn't kept me much .

razor8

fanadman1 wrote: »

could I ask where u sent the sample had problems getting my lambs thriving this year

No problem, sent them to IAS labs in bagnelstown Carlow, they have a web page

rangler1

Green farmer wrote: »

I spoke with two neighbouring farmers to see if there was a history in the area of any deficiencies in the soil. Both said the area is deficient in lime, which surprised me as we've lime in the drinking water from the well. They told me that a farm up the road was spreading lime recently. Anyone know what effects this could have on sheep. I think soil tests are the next port of call if dung samples didn't kept me much .

You need to keep the ph above 6 to promote ryegrass and better grasses in the sward, The land that needs the lime most often on my farm has millions of tonnes of limestone rock three ft down
Of course the sting in the tail is, in a high molybdenum area, the higher the ph the more copper gets locked up.
I think the recommended ph for grass is 6.5, but not in high mol areas

Green farmer

rangler1 wrote: »

You need to keep the ph above 6 to promote ryegrass and better grasses in the sward, The land that needs the lime most often on my farm has millions of tonnes of limestone rock three ft down
Of course the sting in the tail is, in a high molybdenum area, the higher the ph the more copper gets locked up.
I think the recommended ph for grass is 6.5, but not in high mol areas

Thanks rangler,

Funny enough, I found an old map of the farm from years ago. Turns out that there was a lime kiln located in the middle of the farm as well. I'm guessing my land could be similiar to yours rangler.
Aside from that, in relation to copper deficiency, are their any signs what could identify it separately from other things. I've spotted some ewe lambs have very dry coats with a slight red going through them.

Green farmer

This is the red tinge I was telling ye about. Its in ewe lambs that aren't thriving. Their not on meal but on decent enough grass.

rangler1

Green farmer wrote: »

This is the red tinge I was telling ye about. Its in ewe lambs that aren't thriving. Their not on meal but on decent enough grass.

Its like eczema, did they scratch off the wool themselves, never saw that before myself, the wool doesn't look great....

Green farmer

That is one that got fly strike earlier in the summer, so the wool is just clipped tight around the tail area, but it's the colour of the wool regrowth that has me a bit baffled. I dosed them today again with a flukacide / wormer, and gave them a drench of cobalt and b12. Couldn't get the cooper drench. Tried three different suppliers. One supplier told me that horses can get a tinge of red in their coats when are deficient in cooper, but doesn't know if the same applies to sheep.

sea12

[quote=Tried three different suppliers. One supplier told me that horses can get a tinge of red in their coats when are deficient in cooper, but doesn't know if the same applies to sheep.[/quote]

Funny I was on a suppliers today that I'm not normally in and came across it on shelf. Bought it and dosed the lambs with it. Only 2ml per lamb. It was dear though. €30 for half litre.
Will be interesting to see if it works.

Robson99

dglhills wrote: »

Thats them. I gave them one when they were going out onto the hill at 4-6 weeks they got one a clipping time and again at weaning, I am happy with them.

What price approx is a box of 250 ??

Green farmer

sea12 wrote: »

Funny I was on a suppliers today that I'm not normally in and came across it on shelf. Bought it and dosed the lambs with it. Only 2ml per lamb. It was dear though. €30 for half litre.
Will be interesting to see if it works.

Im in cattle country so hard to get anything sheep related. If your only using 2ml, you'll do 250 lambs which isn't too bad. I'd be interested in hearing how you get on with it.

Vandy West

Robson99 wrote: »

What price approx is a box of 250 ??

55-60 Euro a box, one dose lasts 6-8 weeks, one bolus for lambs, two for ewes

sea12

Green farmer wrote: »

Im in cattle country so hard to get anything sheep related. If your only using 2ml, you'll do 250 lambs which isn't too bad. I'd be interested in hearing how you get on with it.

What county are u in green. U can pm if u want

Green farmer

Got faecal results back today. Sample A worm egg count 1000, coccidia 0. Sample B worm count 400, coccidia 200. Liver and rumen fluke, zero. Sample A was a single sample. Sample B was a collection of 2 samples. I selected the most scour samples I could find. Clear dose given about 4-5 weeks previously, which worries me abit on possible resistance.
I'll be swapping lambs over to silage and ration mix shortly as grass is more or less gone. Can they get reinfected with worms from bales of silage ?

paddysdream

Green farmer wrote: »

Got faecal results back today. Sample A worm egg count 1000, coccidia 0. Sample B worm count 400, coccidia 200. Liver and rumen fluke, zero. Sample A was a single sample. Sample B was a collection of 2 samples. I selected the most scour samples I could find. Clear dose given about 4-5 weeks previously, which worries me abit on possible resistance.
I'll be swapping lambs over to silage and ration mix shortly as grass is more or less gone. Can they get reinfected with worms from bales of silage ?

Could be resistance or you could have just missed the late worm "hatch".Very same happened to me last year as I said earlier.
I went back with a white drench,having used ivermectin type previously and it cleared up the problem.

Vet from pharma. company told me there can be a late surge of worms in or about September and this is what could have been the problem

rangler1

Green farmer wrote: »

Got faecal results back today. Sample A worm egg count 1000, coccidia 0. Sample B worm count 400, coccidia 200. Liver and rumen fluke, zero. Sample A was a single sample. Sample B was a collection of 2 samples. I selected the most scour samples I could find. Clear dose given about 4-5 weeks previously, which worries me abit on possible resistance.
I'll be swapping lambs over to silage and ration mix shortly as grass is more or less gone. Can they get reinfected with worms from bales of silage ?

Are you saying that A was a sample from 1 lamb or 1 batch.
They won't get worms from silage

Green farmer

Sample A was from 1 lamb. Sample B was a mixture of samples from 2 other lambs, unconnected to sample A. Maybe I should have sampled normal non scouring faecals as well, but I was trying to pick the most infested samples I could find.

rangler1

Green farmer wrote: »

Sample A was from 1 lamb. Sample B was a mixture of samples from 2 other lambs, unconnected to sample A. Maybe I should have sampled normal non scouring faecals as well, but I was trying to pick the most infested samples I could find.

1000 would be very high for 4 weeks dosed, 400 is possible after 4-5 wks even if the dose works, resistance in worms to the clear dose is unusual, but does happen, we'd go for an average sample here, ie take sample from 8or ten lambs in each batch.
Either way it wouldn't be a waste to dose both batches again
Worm count rose in Sept here very quick after the lambs not needing to be dosed in july or August

Green farmer

Thanks guys. I dosed some at weekend even before results came back so I'll dose rest tomorrow. Might give them albex. Think I might have to do some soil tests over the winter, and get some livers back from butchers / factory, to get an overall picture of what's going on. I suppose the bright side is that I've no trace of fluke on land.

greysides

Green farmer wrote: »

I suppose the bright side is that I've no trace of fluke on land.

Maybe, maybe not.

Worms lay eggs at 3 weeks inside, maybe a little less.

Fluke lays eggs at 3 months inside, maybe a little less.


Eggs are what's detected.

Green farmer

Thanks grey,

I drenched them again this morning . Gave 2/3 of the lambs the clear dose again and the rest of them got white dose. I marked the white dose ones to see if both drenches preform the same or if I've an issue with one of the drenches. Fingers crossed!!!