ICT Specialists (Executive Officer level) in Civil Service

bobbysands81

Just announced I think...

www.publicjobs.ie

More info here...

http://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/campaignAdvert/14179.htm

Zipppy

ha
just filling in application for that...

Neither my name nor candidate number appear in the fields and I cant type them in...any ideas?

bobbysands81

Zipppy wrote: »

ha
just filling in application for that...

Neither my name nor candidate number appear in the fields and I cant type them in...any ideas?

No idea.

Any time I've dealt with publicjobs.ie they've been excellent. Would you give them a call?

L.Jenkins

Looks like an interesting little role, but they're putting too much emphasis on Leaving Cert. results versus actual experience.

Calmcookie84

Just applied myself. Fingers crossed and good luck to everyone

bodun

Itzy wrote: »

Looks like an interesting little role, but they're putting too much emphasis on Leaving Cert. results versus actual experience.

I presume I needn't bother applying as I don't have 5 Cs at honours level in the LC? I've worked in various IT roles for the last 15 years and have a related degree but I can't apply because of an exam I did nearly 20 years ago, seems a bit ridiculous.

boobar

bodun wrote: »

I presume I needn't bother applying as I don't have 5 Cs at honours level in the LC? I've worked in various IT roles for the last 15 years and have a related degree but I can't apply because of an exam I did nearly 20 years ago, seems a bit ridiculous.

I just had a quick look at the eligibility criteria where they have:

The leaving cert with 5 cs etc

Or

Something else of an equivalent or higher standard than the LC.

I think it would be worthwhile calling them and asking would a degree be considered to be a higher standard than the LC.

deathtocaptcha

seems pretty vague... i'd be tempted were it not the fact that location is more than likely Dublin...

i'd like to see them allow people to apply for the regional posts... i.e. if there's a position in Donegal or Cork, surely it makes sense to state that up front...

Beaner1

€1800 net pay a month for a CS degree and proper ICT experience. Who in their right mind would go near this job?

Zipppy

bodun wrote: »

I presume I needn't bother applying as I don't have 5 Cs at honours level in the LC? I've worked in various IT roles for the last 15 years and have a related degree but I can't apply because of an exam I did nearly 20 years ago, seems a bit ridiculous.

boobar wrote: »

I just had a quick look at the eligibility criteria where they have:

The leaving cert with 5 cs etc

Or

Something else of an equivalent or higher standard than the LC.

I think it would be worthwhile calling them and asking would a degree be considered to be a higher standard than the LC.

Hmmmmmm...only spotting this now...seems madness..

As you need a level 6 IN ADDITION to LC or equivalent it would, on the face of it, appear that a degree. masters, Phd would not allowable as a 'higher standard' exam.
Madness..I've a degree and a Masters in CS...In my LC (which I did eons ago) I only got 4 Higher level C's.
This seems like nonsense......

Where can you query this?

Also the AO role is of a higher level and didn't seek this minimum (I think....)


and I've gotten three interviews in recent years for AO ICT in Revenue (no requirement for 5 LC C's)

boobar

Zipppy wrote: »

Hmmmmmm...only spotting this now...seems madness..

As you need a level 6 IN ADDITION to LC or equivalent it would, on the face of it, appear that a degree. masters, Phd would not allowable as a 'higher standard' exam.
Madness..I've a degree and a Masters in CS...In my LC (which I did eons ago) I only got 4 Higher level C's.
This seems like nonsense......

Where can you query this?

Also the AO role is of a higher level and didn't seek this minimum (I think....)


and I've gotten three interviews in recent years for AO ICT in Revenue (no requirement for 5 LC C's)

Best place to ring is PAS...ask for EO ICT competition manager....

It is a stupid requirement...

Elessar

Beaner1 wrote: »

€1800 net pay a month for a CS degree and proper ICT experience. Who in their right mind would go near this job?

+1

Also, strict working times (clockin/clockout etc), no salary reviews, p*ss poor benefits (hardly any that I can see actually, no VHI or anything) and I'd imagine, terrible pay progression.

Why would you bother when so many ICT companies are screaming for experienced minds?

6541

What location is this job in ?

L.Jenkins

bodun wrote: »

I presume I needn't bother applying as I don't have 5 Cs at honours level in the LC? I've worked in various IT roles for the last 15 years and have a related degree but I can't apply because of an exam I did nearly 20 years ago, seems a bit ridiculous.

I'd say still apply if I were you. I'd say your experience alone would trump LC results. As for me, I don't think I'd be so lucky as I'm only 5-6 years working as a Software Dev and not even 30 yet, that and my LC results aren't great, but they aren't a reflection on my ability to do my job.

Zipppy

Itzy wrote: »

I'd say still apply if I were you. I'd say your experience alone would trump LC results. As for me, I don't think I'd be so lucky as I'm only 5-6 years working as a Software Dev and not even 30 yet, that and my LC results aren't great, but they aren't a reflection on my ability to do my job.

Out of interest why would someone with 6 years exp as a software dev choose a role such as this when lots and lots of IT companies will pay you lots more, treat you better, offer you much better conditions and perks etc?

deathtocaptcha

Zipppy wrote: »

Out of interest why would someone with 6 years exp as a software dev choose a role such as this when lots and lots of IT companies will pay you lots more, treat you better, offer you much better conditions and perks etc?

job stability i'm guessing... it's not like the government will up sticks and move to India or Poland... this is effectively a job for life unless you quit. this makes it easier to get loans / mortgages and for many people brings peace of mind...

also, there is effectively a *guaranteed* pay increase of ~6% per year every year... and that's now when things are 'bad'... when pay rises become the norm, we all know public sector employees get well looked after...

all of that coupled with vastly less stressful working environment / slower pace of things in public sector would open the door for gigs on the side... a lot of people i know work 60/70 hours a week and would consider a 40 hour week almost a 'part time' job by comparison...

Maximus_1

deathtocaptcha wrote: »

job stability i'm guessing... it's not like the government will up sticks and move to India or Poland... this is effectively a job for life unless you quit. this makes it easier to get loans / mortgages and for many people brings peace of mind...

also, there is effectively a *guaranteed* pay increase of ~6% per year every year... and that's now when things are 'bad'... when pay rises become the norm, we all know public sector employees get well looked after...

all of that coupled with vastly less stressful working environment / slower pace of things in public sector would open the door for gigs on the side... a lot of people i know work 60/70 hours a week and would consider a 40 hour week almost a 'part time' job by comparison...

Completely agree. I am in IT private sector but you never know how things can go, there is alot to be said for the peace of mind that comes with a role like this. that said the money for Dublin is pretty low, if there were roles outside its livable and then once you climb the scale a bit you will be grand. Basically, there's more to life than money! Hence I will be applying!

zweton

how could one find out if these roles will be outside dublin also.

deathtocaptcha

Maximus_1 wrote: »

Completely agree. I am in IT private sector but you never know how things can go, there is alot to be said for the peace of mind that comes with a role like this. that said the money for Dublin is pretty low, if there were roles outside its livable and then once you climb the scale a bit you will be grand. Basically, there's more to life than money! Hence I will be applying!

The only reason i'm *not* applying is because the roles will more than likely be based in Dublin... which would require moving and a huge increase in living expenses for me...

So suddenly the money doesn't become very attractive... they should list the regional areas imo that require staff... the role says 'nationwide' but then mentions the fact that the majority of positions will be filled in Dublin... it doesn't mention where else will be available...

Beaner1

Maximus_1 wrote: »

Completely agree. I am in IT private sector but you never know how things can go, there is alot to be said for the peace of mind that comes with a role like this. that said the money for Dublin is pretty low, if there were roles outside its livable and then once you climb the scale a bit you will be grand. Basically, there's more to life than money! Hence I will be applying!

There's a lot to be said for not living on the breadline which you will be with this job. Increments are every 18 months and amount to sweet f all as the tax kicks in. Nothing stopping the government ending increments or reversing you pay despite having a contract there isn't any security with these jobs.

The public service is losing tons of decent, skilled professionals as you can earn so much more elsewhere.

It's hard to work out the incrmeents these days but it looks like you'll be waiting 20-25 years before taking home the sum total of €2600 per month. Good luck having a family on that money. Seeing as the state is over 120% debt to gdp I would expect the situation to get worse over the next 20 years. Still, at least you will have that pension. Or will you? I'd wager the minimum age will get pushed out to 70 with new calculations taking an average of your whole career earnings and not the 50% of final that we're used to. With the pension crisis looming I think its reasonable to expect a pension in litle different to someone who just paid prsi stamps.

Gongoozler

It's not hard at all to work out the increments, they're listed for public information in quite a number of places if you look. In fact I'm pretty sure if you asked through that contact you'd probably be given it.

And increments are every 1 year. Not 18 months. Starting salary of an EO is in the 26 to 27000 region don't have the exact figure to hand. Which would be around 2000 a month or slightly less, and that's to start with, so it's hardly going to take 20 years to work up to 2600 a month.

Beaner1

Gongoozler wrote: »

It's not hard at all to work out the increments, they're listed for public information in quite a number of places if you look. In fact I'm pretty sure if you asked through that contact you'd probably be given it.

And increments are every 1 year. Not 18 months. Starting salary of an EO is in the 26 to 27000 region don't hav e the exact figure to hand. Which would be around 2000 a month or slightly less, and that's to start with, so it's hardly going to take 20 years to work up to 2600 a month.

First link will answer your increment question (good luck working it out) and the second seals the net pay debate. Take it from someone who left a higher paying public sector job. Those salaries are an insult to skilled workers and the whole thing should be boycotted.

1. http://www.impact.ie/haddington-road-agreement/haddington-road-frequently-asked-questions/
2. http://taxcalc.eu/

Gongoozler

So those earning above 65000 had to wait 18 months before their next increment. How does that affect EO's? It doesn't.

And I don't know what you're talking about with the second link. I earn 21345 per year, I take home 1521 per month. If you increase that salary by 509 (as the starting salary for an EO is 27464) you get 2030, take home. Maybe you'll pay slightly more usc or something at the slightly higher pay, but still around 2000 per month starting off.

Beaner1

Yes it does.

Are my increments frozen?
Management wanted to freeze all increments until the end of 2016, but unions negotiated a better outcome. In summary:

Public servants who earn less than €35,000 a year receive their
next increment when it falls due and then wait 15 months (rather than
12) before any following increment is paid.
Public servants who earn between €35,000 and €65,000 receive their
next increment when it falls due, then wait 15 months (rather than 12)
before any following increment is paid, and then 15 months (rather than
12) before the following increment is paid.
Public servants who earn between €35,000 and €65,000 a year, and
who are now at the top of their scale, forfeit six days leave, or the
cash equivalent. This is not a permanent reduction in annual leave
entitlement; it’s a once-off loss of six day’s leave spread over a three
year period.

The taxcalc salaries are spot on and I know from experience.

The starting salary is 1805 a month whilst the end salary after 20+ years is €2600.

Gongoozler

Beaner1 wrote: »

Yes it does.



The taxcalc salaries are spot on and I know from experience.

The starting salary is 1805 a month whilst the end salary after 20+ years is €2600.

So, yeah from what you quoted it's not 18 months. The second increment will be after 15 months.

And presumably as the scale only goes so high, the most you can get as an EO is 47975, how does that work out at 2600 a month?

Beaner1

Gongoozler wrote: »

So, yeah from what you quoted it's not 18 months. The second increment will be after 15 months.

And presumably as the scale only goes so high, the most you can get as an EO is 47975, how does that work out at 2600 a month?

In the previous regime the pay scale topped out after 17 years of service. The changes will bring it up over 20 years for sure.

I can't make it any easier for you. Put the 47974 salary into taxcalc. Look at the net monthly salary. That is the reality. I know it's depressing to someone who is looking upwards and thinking what is the point.

Gongoozler

Beaner1 wrote: »

In the previous regime the pay scale topped out after 17 years of service. The changes will bring it up over 20 years for sure.

I can't make it any easier for you. Put the 47974 salary into taxcalc. Look at the net monthly salary. That is the reality. I know it's depressing to someone who is looking upwards and thinking what is the point.

Your first point doesn't relate at all to my first point. So you concede that you're wrong about the 18 months?

I went to your tax calc site, getting security issues with it, what a mess of a page. I've googled another one, and it's saying take home is €33,897. So take home is 2824 per month. Wow that is bad for 20 years of service. But then I suppose if you're ok sticking at EO level (or have no choice in the matter) for 20 years, you're probably not that bothered. €700 a week is nothing to turn your nose up at as far as I'm concerned.

Beaner1

Gongoozler wrote: »

Your first point doesn't relate at all to my first point. So you concede that you're wrong about the 18 months?

I went to your tax calc site, getting security issues with it, what a mess of a page. I've googled another one, and it's saying take home is €33,897. So take home is 2824 per month. Wow that is bad for 20 years of service. But then I suppose if you're ok sticking at EO level (or have no choice in the matter) for 20 years, you're probably not that bothered. €700 a week is nothing to turn your nose up at as far as I'm concerned.

The substantive part of my point stands. 20 years to the max of the scale.

Taxcalc works if your java is up to date. I use the android app. You are looking at private sector net pay.

Try and live on 2600 a month in Dublin. You won't have much of a life. You'll quickly realise that with a few years experience as a database admin you can probably get 4k net a month in the private sector. Your 1800 security doesn't look so attractive then.

Gongoozler

Beaner1 wrote: »

The substantive part of my point stands. 20 years to the max of the scale.

Taxcalc works if your java is up to date. I use the android app. You are looking at private sector net pay.

Try and live on 2600 a month in Dublin. You won't have much of a life. You'll quickly realise that with a few years experience as a database admin you can probably get 4k net a month in the private sector. Your 1800 security doesn't look so attractive then.

I live on 1520 a month just fine. I've been on 3 holidays this year, one to Australia. And still manage to have quite a sum of savings.

But I just want to clear up here, I'm not defending the public sector, I'd love to get out of it, as to why everyone thinks it's so great, is really beyond me. Usually only thought by those not in it.

Beaner1

Gongoozler wrote: »

I live on 1520 a month just fine. I've been on 3 holidays this year, one to Australia. And still manage to have quite a sum of savings.

But I just want to clear up here, I'm not defending the public sector, I'd love to get out of it, as to why everyone thinks it's so great, is really beyond me. Usually only thought by those not in it.

It might work out if you're in single in your 20s or you have a parter with better earnings. Hitting 30+ life becomes a real struggle with 900 per month creche fees and e1800 rent or mortgage.

Gongoozler

Beaner1 wrote: »

It might work out if you're in single in your 20s or you have a parter with better earnings. Hitting 30+ life becomes a real struggle with 900 per month creche fees and e1800 rent or mortgage.

I'm in my 30's, don't have a partner supporting me, and won't be having any children. But by all means continue trying to be condescending.

Look, people, yes everyone, has the choice where they work, and what they want to spend on outgoings. Nobody's forced to work for the public sector. Do it if you want, don't if you don't, just don't whinge about it.

Tarzana2

Beaner1 wrote: »

Try and live on 2600 a month in Dublin. You won't have much of a life.

I live on €1496 in Dublin and have a life. I'm 30. My partner earns 35k. What planet are people on?

gazzer

Gongoozler wrote: »

Your first point doesn't relate at all to my first point. So you concede that you're wrong about the 18 months?

I went to your tax calc site, getting security issues with it, what a mess of a page. I've googled another one, and it's saying take home is €33,897. So take home is 2824 per month. Wow that is bad for 20 years of service. But then I suppose if you're ok sticking at EO level (or have no choice in the matter) for 20 years, you're probably not that bothered. €700 a week is nothing to turn your nose up at as far as I'm concerned.

Are you factoring in the pension levy also to those calculations?

Nody

//MOD

Please stop the off topic discussion on how much someone can or can not live on; the thread is for discusion about the ICT position and the question on salary has now been answered.

//MOD

Zipppy

Has anyone queried the LC requirements?

francozola

Applied for it, I have a Level 9 IT degree but don't have the 5 C's at higher level

bobbysands81

zweton wrote: »

how could one find out if these roles will be outside dublin also.

Public Jobs might be able to tell you. Ask them are any of the positions outside of Dublin, if they know they'll tell you.

fiachr_a

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Public Jobs might be able to tell you. Ask them are any of the positions outside of Dublin, if they know they'll tell you.

Are the not for Public Expenditure only? They're based in Dublin 2.

bennyineire

fiachr_a wrote: »

Are the not for Public Expenditure only? They're based in Dublin 2.

Where are you getting this information ?

Stheno

bennyineire wrote: »

Where are you getting this information ?

Says on the ad that they are the hiring body?

bennyineire

Stheno wrote: »

Says on the ad that they are the hiring body?

From the application booklet
"Opportunities are expected to arise across a range of Departments Offices for ICT positions.
While it is likely that the greater number of vacancies will occur in the Dublin area, positions in other locations may also be filled from this competition if required."

You should really read the full text before making these assumptions
the
Dubli

Gongoozler

bennyineire wrote: »

From the application booklet
"Opportunities are expected to arise across a range of Departments Offices for ICT positions.
While it is likely that the greater number of vacancies will occur in the Dublin area, positions in other locations may also be filled from this competition if required."

You should really read the full text before making these assumptions
the
Dubli

Well from the wording most would take it to mean you'll be in Dublin most likely. There's nothing stopping you saying no if a position somewhere doesn't suit gets offered to you. They're covering themselves saying it may be used as a panel for other places.

InReality

On the Leaving Cert requirement;

I think its possible to read it as follows

1) If you have a qualification higher than LC requirement ( in the opinion of PAS )
and
2) IT Qualification or IT Certification or experience you can apply.

So on that reading
1) Any diploma / degree etc
and
2) IT Certification or experience should suffice.

If you haven't got the LC but have a degree and experience I'd apply and argue it later.

The_Conductor

fiachr_a wrote: »

Are the not for Public Expenditure only? They're based in Dublin 2.

DPER are the hiring body for *all* government departments. Previously posts would have been offered by individual Departments- now Departments go to DPER for staff- who in turn recruit to fill posts that they feel have been sufficiently justified by the requesting Department.

The_Conductor

Guys-

When they say they're looking for a minimum of 5 honours at leaving cert to include a minimum of a C in Irish, English, Maths (or however they phrased it)- they mean you have to have a minimum of a Level 5 qualification on the National Framework of Qualifications scale.

There is a scale published here

A pass leaving cert is rated at a 4 on the scale.
An honours leaving cert is rated at a 5
A certificate from an institute of Technology- is a 6
An ordinary level degree is a 7
An honours 4 year degree- or a hDip is an 8
A Masters or a Grad Dip is a 9
A doctorate is a 10

For this particular post- you need a minimum of a level 5 qualification.

All public sector appointments, that have minimal educational qualifications- use the National Framework scale (and have done for the past few years).

Note- an honors degree is a 4 year degree- and not a 1/2.1/2.2- a first in a 3 year BSc/BA (or whatever)- is a level 7 qualification not a level 8 qualification- this is probably the one and only point of confusion that normally arises.

bennyineire

The_Conductor wrote: »

Guys-

When they say they're looking for a minimum of 5 honours at leaving cert to include a minimum of a C in Irish, English, Maths (or however they phrased it)- they mean you have to have a minimum of a Level 5 qualification on the National Framework of Qualifications scale.

There is a scale published here

A pass leaving cert is rated at a 4 on the scale.
An honours leaving cert is rated at a 5
A certificate from an institute of Technology- is a 6
An ordinary level degree is a 7
An honours 4 year degree- or a hDip is an 8
A Masters or a Grad Dip is a 9
A doctorate is a 10

For this particular post- you need a minimum of a level 5 qualification.

All public sector appointments, that have minimal educational qualifications- use the National Framework scale (and have done for the past few years).

Note- an honors degree is a 4 year degree- and not a 1/2.1/2.2- a first in a 3 year BSc/BA (or whatever)- is a level 7 qualification not a level 8 qualification- this is probably the one and only point of confusion that normally arises.

I'm still confused by your post, do you mean to say if you have a Level 9 qualification as I do then that supersedes my LC regardless if I done 5 hounurs level subjects (which I don't)

The_Conductor

bennyineire wrote: »

I'm still confused by your post, do you mean to say if you have a Level 9 qualification as I do then that supersedes my LC regardless if I done 5 hounurs level subjects (which I don't)

Yes- your level 9 qualification supercedes a level 5 qualification (or indeed any qualification between 5 and 9).

A degree will always trump a LC......... (etc etc)

Tarzana2

I'm pretty sure some three year degree courses in this country are level 8. Not sure about any IT ones though.

bennyineire

Tarzana2 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure some three year degree courses in this country are level 8. Not sure about any IT ones though.

Yep a lot of 3 year Art's degrees are level 8 yet Engineering degrees are 4 years.
Go figure how the hell a 3 year Art's degree can come close to a 4 year engineering/science degree. Yet both are level 8

The_Conductor

bennyineire wrote: »

Yep a lot of 3 year Art's degrees are level 8 yet Engineering degrees are 4 years.
Go figure how the hell a 3 year Art's degree can come close to a 4 year engineering/science degree. Yet both are level 8

Some Science degrees- are level 7 qualifications........
I can understand why an ordinary level taught science degree would be a level 7 qualification- an arts degree being somehow worth more than this though- is bizarre in the extreme.......

Anyhow, we diverge........

zweton

it is closed now?