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About to start new job 4 months pregnant **MOD warning 1st post**

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    #92
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    stimpson wrote: »
    All morality is relative. Do you think it's moral to discriminate against a pregnant woman?

    She wasn't discriminated against.

    In my industry, if a really good candidate applied for the job, and had amazing experience and would be an asset to my team, more than a non pregnant candidate, I'd hire her knowing I would need to replace her temporarily in a few months time. I would trust her more as she wasn't being underhanded.

    If I hired someone who was FOUR MONTHS pregnant, pretty much half way through her pregnancy and neglected to tell me, then I don't think that's the kind of person I would want working for me


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    #93
    e92335i
    Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭e92335i


    stimpson wrote: »
    All morality is relative. Do you think it's moral to discriminate against a pregnant woman?

    How is this discrimination?

    If she told the employer she wouldn't be available to work in 4 months time for an 8 month period (not giving the reason) and did not get the job for this reason would that be discrimination??

    Pregnancy is irrelevant here. She knew she was not going to be available for work.


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    #94
    e92335i
    Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭e92335i


    smcgiff wrote: »
    She has a duty to be the best employee she can be.

    She is under no obligation to abide by any morals others would put on her.

    Great start on being the best employee she can be.

    I'm really struggling to see your point of view here - This was bad form no matter what tint you put on it.


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    #95
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    e92335i wrote: »
    How is this discrimination?

    ...

    Pregnancy is irrelevant here.

    The law clearly states otherwise.


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    #96
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    e92335i wrote: »
    Great start on being the best employee she can be.

    You Your argument is clearly obtuse.


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    #97
    The Pheasant2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,699 ✭✭✭The Pheasant2


    Pretty indefensible lying by omission here OP - not "legally" wrong, but certainly wrong morally and ethically.

    This is exactly the kind of thing that can cause big disputes in the work place surrounding maternity leave

    If I was the employer here I'd be (rightly) miffed. Legally everything is on the up and up so of course she could take her leave as she's fully entitled to; but I certainly wouldn't be holding my breath for any promotion in the future.


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    #98
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    e92335i wrote: »
    How is this discrimination?

    If she told the employer she wouldn't be available to work in 4 months time for an 8 month period (not giving the reason) and did not get the job for this reason would that be discrimination??

    Pregnancy is irrelevant here. She knew she was not going to be available for work.

    It is discrimination if the employer refuses to employ her because she's pregnant. I've quoted the equality act already.


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    #99
    e92335i
    Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭e92335i


    smcgiff wrote: »
    You Your argument is clearly obtuse.

    I think focussing on the law here is much to acute... as many others have said regarding the OP:
    Legally OK
    Morally & Ethically not OK


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    #100
    e92335i
    Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭e92335i


    stimpson wrote: »
    It is discrimination if the employer refuses to employ her because she's pregnant. I've quoted the equality act already.

    You did not answer my question:

    If she told the employer she wouldn't be available to work in 4 months time for an 8 month period (not giving the reason) and did not get the job for this reason would that be discrimination??


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    #101
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    If I was planning on going to Australia in 4 months time for 8.5 months and neglected to tell my employer, instead expecting them to hire someone else and give me back my job after being away for twice as long as I was there, would that be reasonable?


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    #102
    beyondbelief67
    Registered Users Posts: 550 ✭✭✭beyondbelief67


    I'm at present on a college course and one of the modules is communications, we had to do mock interviews etc
    During which we were told categorically we are not obliged to tell any would be employer that we may be pregnant, planning on becoming pregnant, and in fact told never to divulge that information and that employers are not allowed to ask that information during an interview, even if the person is obviously pregnant.
    Op I'd wait a month or so before saying anything, during which time you can show what you can do.


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    #103
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,717 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Regardless of legislation and "morality" and other such defences quoted here, what the OP has done here will not do her any favours in the real world when her bosses discover the truth

    What will probably happen is that when she decides to tell them they will start building a case for dismissing her during her probation period. They'll then hire someone else.


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    #104
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    stimpson wrote: »
    The law is very specific on definitions:


    Discrimination (general).

    3.—(1) For the purposes of this Act, discrimination shall be taken to occur where—

    (a) on any of the grounds specified in subsection (2) (in this Act referred to as “the discriminatory grounds”) which exists at present or previously existed but no longer exists or may exist in the future, or which is imputed to the person concerned, a person is treated less favourably than another person is, has been or would be treated,

    It's not discriminating based on disability here though. It's the company analysing which potential employee is the most cost effective which is completely legal.


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    #105
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    e92335i wrote: »
    You did not answer my question:

    If she told the employer she wouldn't be available to work in 4 months time for an 8 month period (not giving the reason) and did not get the job for this reason would that be discrimination??

    No, but that proves nothing. She has legal protection because she is pregnant.


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    #106
    TimeToShine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭TimeToShine


    She is technically in the right and effectively bulletproof but anyone who think she'll get away with this in the long term is in dreamland. People, and especially personnel managers, are not likely to forget deception and lying by omission no matter how "legal" it is.


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    #107
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    TimeToShine wrote: »
    She is technically in the right and effectively bulletproof but anyone who think she'll get away with this in the long term is in dreamland. People, and especially personnel managers, are not likely to forget deception and lying by omission no matter how "legal" it is.

    I have heard it happen where a woman hides being pregnant in an interview and then arrives clearly pregnant and is then told "your job as a receptionist includes receiving deliveries [of heavy computing equipment] and carrying them to whoever they are addressed to". Once the person mentions not being able to lift heavy boxes, they "aren't performing the job they were hired for", goodbye.


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    #108
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    GarIT wrote: »
    I have heard it happen where a woman hides being pregnant in an interview and then arrives clearly pregnant and is then told "your job as a receptionist includes receiving deliveries [of heavy computing equipment] and carrying them to whoever they are addressed to". Once the person mentions not being able to lift heavy boxes, they "aren't performing the job they were hired for", goodbye.

    That's illegal. Here's some light reading for you

    http://www.williamfry.ie/publication-article/pregnancy_discrimination_and_access_to_employment.aspx
    Employers seeking temporary cover for absent employees should take note of a recent decision of the Equality Tribunal. In short, withdrawing an offer of temporary employment, because the prospective employee will take maternity leave during the period of employment, has been ruled to be discriminatory.


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    #109
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    Well then I think my employer is discriminating against me as I need 8.5 months off for personal reasons and my job won't be held open for me when I'm ready to return


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    #110
    Tzardine
    Registered Users Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭Tzardine


    stimpson wrote: »
    That's illegal. Here's some light reading for you

    http://www.williamfry.ie/publication-article/pregnancy_discrimination_and_access_to_employment.aspx

    Thats in the case of temporary employment it says. The Op appears to have been offered a full time job.


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    #111
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    Well then I think my employer is discriminating against me as I need 8.5 months off for personal reasons and my job won't be held open for me when I'm ready to return

    On what legal grounds are they discriminating against you?


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    #112
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    stimpson wrote: »
    On what legal grounds are they discriminating against you?

    If they refuse to let me come back to work in 9 months time and let another person take the same leave, I'm being treated less favourably


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    #113
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    stimpson wrote: »
    That's illegal. Here's some light reading for you

    http://www.williamfry.ie/publication-article/pregnancy_discrimination_and_access_to_employment.aspx

    They aren't withdrawing the job offer because she is going on maternity leave though. They are withdrawing the offer because she is not doing the job required while not on maternity leave.


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    #114
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    Tzardine wrote: »
    Thats in the case of temporary employment it says. The Op appears to have been offered a full time job.

    Did you actually read the article? The temporary nature is not the point.
    After being offered a ten month fixed term contract, the prospective employee informed the company that she was pregnant. The company withdrew the offer on the basis that the prospective employee would have had to take maternity leave of her own, four months into the contract, and therefore would not have been able to fulfil the purpose for which she had been offered the position. Having determined that this amounted to an act of discrimination, contrary to the Employment Equality Acts, the Equality Officer awarded the prospective employee the maximum amount of compensation permissible under the legislation (€12,697) for a claim regarding access to employment.


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    #115
    Renier
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭Renier


    pregnantandanxious wrote: »
    Title says it all really - I am due to start a new job on Monday and I'm currently 4 months pregnant. I had my interview 3 weeks ago where I didn't tell the person interviewing me that I'm pregnant as this job is a huge opportunity for me and I didn't want to reduce my chances of getting it. What I'm looking for advice on is when should I mention it? Day one? After 2 weeks so I've hopefully proved myself a little? It's a reasonably big company, although the team I'll be working on is quite small. Hopefully I'll be working for 4.5 months, then taking 8.5 months off, then back to work full time. I do see a future with this company so in the long term am hoping this won't hold me back too much

    You should have told them in the interview. You are being totally unfair


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    #116
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    GarIT wrote: »
    They aren't withdrawing the job offer because she is going on maternity leave though. They are withdrawing the offer because she is not doing the job required while not on maternity leave.

    I think you have issues with comprehension.


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    #117
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    stimpson wrote: »
    I think you have issues with comprehension.
    As you pointed out it is illegal to sack somebody because they will be going on maternity leave, but what can and has been done is make the job very difficult to do, too difficult for a pregnant person and then the person either leaves or fails to get their job done, either way they are out of the company.


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    #118
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    GarIT wrote: »
    As you pointed out it is illegal to sack somebody because they will be going on maternity leave, but what can and has been done is make the job very difficult to do, too difficult for a pregnant person and then the person either leaves or fails to get their job done, either way they are out of the company.
    What you have suggested is called constructive dismissal and is also illegal.

    Please tell me that you're not an employer. You don't seem to have a basic grasp of employment law or any regard for employees rights.


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    #119
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    stimpson wrote: »
    What you have suggested is called constructive dismissal and is also illegal.

    Please tell me that you're not an employer. You done seen to have a basic grasp of employment or any regard for employees rights.
    But I have told you nobody was let go because of maternity leave. They were let go because they were unable to do their job.

    If it can't be proven it wont be a problem, it's not unusual to think a receptionist would have to pass on deliveries.

    I have a lot of regard for the law and employees rights but just not at all when the employee has purposefully deceived me. I'd think higher of an employee that arrived a couple of minutes late everyday then I would of one that arrived pregnant. Actually it would take some work for me to think less of an employee than someone that knowingly arrived pregnant.


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    #120
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    GarIT wrote: »
    But I have told you nobody was let go because of maternity leave. They were let go because they were unable to do their job.

    If it can't be proven it wont be a problem, it's not unusual to think a receptionist would have to pass on deliveries.

    I have a lot of regard for the law and employees rights but just not at all when the employee has purposefully deceived me. I'd think higher of an employee that arrived a couple of minutes late everyday then I would of one that arrived pregnant. Actually it would take some work for me to think less of an employee than someone that knowingly arrived pregnant.

    If you have a problem with my posts I suggest you report them.

    You can't let an employee go because they will be unable to do their job while pregnant.
    Once an employer becomes aware that an employee is pregnant, they must assess the specific risks from the employment to that employee and take action to ensure that she is not exposed to anything, which would damage either her health or that of her developing child.

    - See more at: http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Workplace_Health/Sensitive_Risk_Groups/Pregnant_at_Work_FAQ_Responses/Pregnant_at_Work_FAQ_Responses.html#sthash.uQqqwv3M.dpuf


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    #121
    Tzardine
    Registered Users Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭Tzardine


    stimpson wrote: »
    Did you actually read the article? The temporary nature is not the point.

    Nope. I read the quote you posted , which said it related to temporary employment.


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