Getting close to taking the EV plunge

tony67

I have been doing my research for the past few months on EVs and the Leaf in particular. I am very close to pulling the trigger and just want to get some input from those that have gone before me. I am currently looking at a low mileage late 2013 ex demo MK2 SV with low mileage and 6.6kw charger for ~€13500. Its in the UK so I would need to travel to pick it up. I know some people have done this trip and I have read various posts and blogs so I kinda know what to expect.

I see a lot of there posts turn into EV vs ICE arguments, I'd rather this stayed on topic if possible, I am considering a leaf not because of any idealogical reasons but instead, cold hard maths, FOR ME it makes sense.

I live in Dublin, the dealer in the UK is ~220km from Pembroke ferry port. The idea is, get a flight to UK (dealer is close to airport) and drive her to Pembroke charging twice on the way, get the ferry to Rosslare and drive to Dublin.

I have applied for an Ecotricity card for UK charging and used parcel motel as my address. Not sure if this will work I ticked the box to say i owned the car. Do they check? Can anyone comment on Ecotricitys' network in South Wales. The map suggests plenty of rapid charge points most of the way with the final one being ~80km from Pembroke (this should be fine right).

There are no chargers on this particular boat so once in Ireland I will need access to ESBs' network which I have read can be a problem without a car registered. I will need to get from Rosslare to Dublin which will require at least 2 charges, one in Wexford since i wouldn't have much left after the final 80km leg in UK and one around Gorey.

Can anyone tell me if all Irish charge points need a card or are some open to everyone. Particularly the rapid chargers found in Garages on the inter urban routes.

I would appreciate any input especially from anyone who has blazed the trail before me.
Cheers
Tony

How many miles do you do average per day ?

First off all Irish chargers need an access card.

I would say wait for the Kia soul EV as it will have more range than any affordable ev at this time and it will have a battery heater for cold weather which should greatly help range.

Obviously it would be new and maybe out of budget but have you thought if you really want to own the Leaf after say, 3 years ? if not then buying on pcp is a very good way to buy a new car and you won't have to fork out 20 -22K all at once.

PCP gives you 3 years to decide if you want to keep the car or flog it and start again.

tony67

Thanks for the info on the charge points. I read on here that Ecars have in the past arranged temporary access to charge points by phone. Has anyone any experience with this?

I cover ~200 miles per week, I would do more but fuel costs keep the mileage down. I built an electric bike 3 years ago so that picks up the slack and in the past 3 years has covered nearly 20000 miles, yes thats twenty thousand mostly leisure miles.

As for do i really want to own a leaf. I don't see why not, its not the prettiest thing Ive ever seen but far from the worst. TBH I'm not really interested in cars in the way a lot of people are. For me primarily its a mode of transport I have an R1 for fun. Sure I could spend 2k on a banger but that would be expensive to run and maintain this leaf would get me a 1 year old car that is cheap to run for 13.5k.

I also have 3 rapid chargers within 5 miles of my house and the 6.6kw ac charger means on street charging puts very usable range in a reasonable time. For rare long trips I have the bike or the GFs car.

I really can't make the numbers work for any new Ecar and I find PCP totally not for me. Usually when I buy a car I keep it for over 5 yrs my last car was with me for 8 years. Risidual value is not really a concern for me i'm more concerned with current savings. The way I see it I will save ~€2200 per year in fuel/tax/maintenance in 5 years those savings almost pay for the car. Add to that my sister loves the idea of an electric car but could never afford even the current used prices let alone new. Im sure that when the time comes to sell she'd have my arm off and since she has never driven outside dublin and her husband has an ICE car, even if the battery was at 70% it would be enough for her modest mileage.

As i said in the opening post the numbers work and the decision is based purely on the numbers. Im really just trying to nail down the logistics of getting it here.

Tony

I was just curious because if doing high mileage and buying a 2nd hand leaf I would say better buy new and flog after 3 years before battery degradation becomes a problem.

But since you're doing around 40 miles a day it shouldn't be a problem, that's about the same as what I'm doing now but I can't commit to a Leaf because I contract and could be doing 80-100 miles a day which can be done in a leaf, preferably with work charging but I don't want to have to fast charge every day and I fear doing high mileage would leave me with unbearable range after 2-3 years.

13 K for a 131 reg seems pretty cheap ?

ei9go

I think there is a fast charger at Pembroke Dock that doesn't need a card but am open to correction on that

tony67

@mad lad. It would actually be a 132, it is phenomenally cheap. Comes with 3 pin and type 2 cable as well.

@ ei9go Ill check that out at pembroke thanks.

toadfly

Not all chargers need a card but if you PM me your address OP I can lend you one of mine if you want.

ei9go

tony67 wrote: »

@mad lad. It would actually be a 132, it is phenomenally cheap. Comes with 3 pin and type 2 cable as well.

@ ei9go Ill check that out at pembroke thanks.

Here@s the Irish Ferries info at Pembroke.

Mennekes (Type 2)

Quantity
1
Amps
32
Voltage
230
Operational
Operational
BS1363 3 Pin 13 Amp

Quantity
1
Amps
3
Voltage
230
Operational
Operational

http://zerocarbonworld.org/zero-net

tony67

@ Toadfly That's incredibly generous, you have helped me over the final hurdle I think. Ive just transferred cash from savings on the back of that, I think we're in business time to check flights.

ei9go thanks for that the 6.6 kw charger would make good use of that

toadfly

You're welcome to a lend of it, just let me know if you need it.

galwaytt

silly question but, would it not be far easier, and cheaper, to just get it delivered to your door ? Sat on the back of a transporter it won't need any charge to get anywhere ??

tony67

galwaytt wrote: »

silly question but, would it not be far easier, and cheaper, to just get it delivered to your door ? Sat on the back of a transporter it won't need any charge to get anywhere ??

I'm not sure it would. One way or another I'd want eyes on it before I buy so that means a flight over and back then a delivery charge. I'm not sure what that would be but I would think it wouldnt be less than €300 that would total at least €350. If I fly and drive back I'm looking at €25 for the flight maybe €20 for a taxi and ~€120 for the ferry fuel is free, plus this way I'm in control. Thanks for the suggestion tho.

It would still be a cheap car though, I wouldn't bother driving it back.

This time of the year you could run into unexpected cold and/or stormy foul weather that could see you fall 20 miles or more short of your expected range.

kdouglas

Sounds like you've done the research and know what suits your driving. Good price on that model too by the sounds of it. It should have the heat pump which will definitely be of benefit in the colder weather as it's significantly more efficient than the older model's heater.

I imported mine from the UK, drove from Birmingham to Liverpool using ecotricity charge points, no hassle. Just make sure to plan your route, know where the charge points are and know what your alternative options are in case any are out of order.

I got a swipe card off ESB before I left to pick up my car, I just explained the situation to them that I'd need to charge getting off the ferry and sent them a copy of a receipt to show I'd paid a deposit on the car. I know some have had success with phoning up to get the charge point activated remotely, but to be honest I'd rather not rely on remote activation.

Alternatively, borrow one as has been offered by Toadfly.

toadfly

That's going out in today's post OP

WexTex

Tony,
Same here. Car makes a lot of sense, we keep cars a long time and it nearly pays for itself.
Got a '12 Leaf a month ago from near Leeds, drove down to Pembroke. I have Ecotricity card if you need it. No problem with chargers over there. Ecotricity does them at Service areas on Motorway. The Pembroke charger was put in quickly! Surprised to see that. I made it no problem from the last charging point at the end of M4 to Pembroke. Just take your time. Traffic & construction are your friends, as motorway speeds kill your range. Delivery charges are £1 per mile FYI. ZapMap best for all the different types of chargers and don't forget the Nissan dealerships, who are very welcoming.
Getting an older one is good as they've cut out a lot of the features on the new models. Things to check on: have the dealership delete the old CarWings account and help you log in, have your insurance ready for the day you collect it, Make sure you've got (lugnuts? to take off wheels), 2 keys, check which cable you get with it. Make sure dealer has applied to DVLA right away for change of ownership form as you need the long form to register here and it takes a while to get it. Don't forget to keep the ferry ticket. In Rosslare, use the 1st rapid charger as the one close to the Rosslare Road roundabout is not working. Then maybe take the old Dublin road and top up at the Wexford car centre Nissan dealership, cut back over to N11 in Gorey. If the taxi driver is charging in Gorey, he doesn't mind if you unplug him & plug back in when you're done. Then Applegreen Wicklow?...

WexTex

Update: I'm told fast charger just before Rosslare Road roundabout, is working again, as of Thursday the 6th.

tony67

Well I was all set to drop a deposit on the car today and rang the dealer, I missed out by 3 hours, someone beat me to it. Anyway a big thanks to toadfly who sent me a charge card and to everyone who contributed. I am now off to hunt for another bargain leaf.

What is the consensus on higher mileage cars in the 30k-40k miles range. A lot of cars at that mileage have lost their first bar of capacity and those that haven't, probable are not far off it. Has anyone on here lost a bar? If so what effect has it had on your range? Pretty much all my driving would be on minor roads very little motorway but I would worry that since the first bar represents 15% and subsequent bars ~5% that the next few would drop off in short order and while I don't need massive daily range I don't want to find myself with needing multiple charges daily.

Tony

Unless you got a serious addiction to the fast charger you shouldn't loose your first capacity bar until 70,000 miles, some more, some less.

The greatest thing you can do is not to fast charge above 80% especially if the battery is above 35 degrees C.

Get the leaf spy app and a bluetooth dongle and keep an eye on capacity loss, temperatures etc. Reading the capacity loss is only accurate with a battery temp of about 20 degrees C.

The Leaf's battery chemistry is among the most sensitive of all battery chemistries to heat and so you need to ensure it doesn't get too hot.

If fast charging, then do so because you need to and not because you want free electricity.

tony67

I rang someone today that has one for sale. Its a 2011 model with 40k miles and has one bar gone. I reckon its been fast charged quite a bit.

tony67

tony67 wrote: »

I rang someone today that has one for sale. Its a 2011 model with 40k miles and has one bar gone. I reckon its been fast charged quite a bit.

Yes, fast charging is the ultimate way to capacity loss. You should not loose a capacity bar by 40k miles.

It would be wise to bring the leaf spy app and a bluetooth dongle if you're going leaf hunting, but the battery capacity loss reading is only accurate with a battery temp of 20 degrees C. But it would give you a good indication of how many fast charges are on the battery, but it won;t say how many were taken past 80% or hot hot the battery got or how long it was in a hot state.

WexTex

Should not lose a bar of battery at that mileage. Hard shopping from a distance. Have had the same thing happen a few times. You find one you really like that seems like a good deal and it's gone b/c someone else thinks it's a good deal, too. Some dealers have a scheme where you can put a deposit down and will hold the car. You get the deposit back when you test drive it. Tony, have you been to Irish EV Owners Group FB page? Join the private group and you'll get the real scoop on what to expect from owners, some on their 3rd Leaf. Have you checked Doncaster, Harratts in Pontefract, and Benfield in Newcastle/Gateshead?

reboot

tony67 wrote: »

I rang someone today that has one for sale. Its a 2011 model with 40k miles and has one bar gone. I reckon its been fast charged quite a bit.

Seems like you have made your mind up.

The Irish EV Owners FB group won't believe that a leaf could loose a capacity bar, and they certainly won't believe that fast charging could be the cause of it.

I wouldn't buy a leaf where someone has abused the battery. Be warned. Though at least the leaf is the only ev that gives capacity information to the driver. In all others you won't know unless you take the car to it's limit a lot.

reboot

Deleted User wrote: »

The Irish EV Owners FB group won't believe that a leaf could loose a capacity bar, and they certainly won't believe that fast charging could be the cause of it.

I wouldn't buy a leaf where someone has abused the battery. Be warned. Though at least the leaf is the only ev that gives capacity information to the driver. In all others you won't know unless you take the car to it's limit a lot.

Is it called confirmation bias?

reboot

reboot wrote: »

Is it called confirmation bias?

well put it this way, I spent a lot of time researching batteries over the years, especially since I started my electric bike projects so I think I know something about them.

Fast charging itself isn't the main killer, it's those that fast charge a hot battery and charge a hot battery above 80%. Major battery killers.

This isn't to say the same effects will be observed from another ev. Different batteries will use different chemistries and components.

Some batteries will be designed to take a much faster charge rate and heat won't be an issue because it won't heat up much to cause problems.

Some of my LiPo batteries are designed to take 3 times the charge rate of the Leaf battery and they don't even get mildly warm.

Now I know a lot of leaf owners on Irish EV Owners "own" leafs and I don't and their only ammunition is that I don't own one so what would I know. In fact I'm seen as the enemy because I don't own an e.v. at all.

I spent a lot of time and effort in my posts to give people the best information that I can because I want people to have all the facts before they purchase an ev. So they know exactly what they're getting in to.

I got fed up of being insulted and called a troll because It appears to them that I'm anti leaf and anti ev ? me of all people !

That and the fact that all the information gets buried and you have to keep repeating the same stuff over and over, it gets tiring.

The Irish Ev Owners FB group needs a forum.

reboot

Deleted User wrote: »

well put it this way, I spent a lot of time researching batteries over the years, especially since I started my electric bike projects so I think I know something about them.

Fast charging itself isn't the main killer, it's those that fast charge a hot battery and charge a hot battery above 80%. Major battery killers.

This isn't to say the same effects will be observed from another ev. Different batteries will use different chemistries and components.

Some batteries will be designed to take a much faster charge rate and heat won't be an issue because it won't heat up much to cause problems.

Some of my LiPo batteries are designed to take 3 times the charge rate of the Leaf battery and they don't even get mildly warm.

Now I know a lot of leaf owners on Irish EV Owners "own" leafs and I don't and their only ammunition is that I don't own one so what would I know. In fact I'm seen as the enemy because I don't own an e.v. at all.

I spent a lot of time and effort in my posts to give people the best information that I can because I want people to have all the facts before they purchase an ev. So they know exactly what they're getting in to.

I got fed up of being insulted and called a troll because It appears to them that I'm anti leaf and anti ev ? me of all people !

That and the fact that all the information gets buried and you have to keep repeating the same stuff over and over, it gets tiring.

The Irish Ev Owners FB group needs a forum.

Do you suspect Dexter wants to make it this forum? How would you feel about that?

reboot

reboot wrote: »

Do you suspect Dexter wants to make it this forum? How would you feel about that?

What do you mean this forum ?

reboot

Deleted User wrote: »

What do you mean this forum ?

Sorry,I mean Boards.,having re read the rules it may not be acceptable to do as Dexter suggests, or have I totally misread his intentions?

axe2grind

reboot wrote: »

or have I totally misread his intentions?

I think you have

reboot

axe2grind wrote: »

I think you have

If I have I apologise, just wondered what the differerance will be between Irish EV owners, and the facebook group of the same name, composing almost 100% Leaf postings?