Kitchen Extension

barbie_j

Hi all, i'm planning a kitchen extension, basically i want to fit a kitchen with island, a dining table for 8 ppl and a lounge area with L shaped couch or 3 seater 2 seater combo facing a tv. I was wondering if I really need an architect? as I thought the structure is quite straight forward, well I must be wrong:roll eyes:

anyone knows the basic cost for an architect? he or she will take a x% of total cost or a fixed fees? or a fixed fees + x% of total cost?

Any advice is appreciated :)

sullydublin

A good builder should be able to work to rough plans. Thats considering there is no issue with drainage or structure.

Gumbo

Is planning required?
A good technician could draw up a plan for you to agree with the builder.

But bear in mind that you may need an engineer for any structural elements and depending on the level of service you engage, you may not get anybody to control materials or costs.

I was at one job this week, no architect, no engineer, very good builder but he just underestimated the weight of the roof = total collapse. Blessed nobody was killed, never mind hurt.

BryanF

barbie_j wrote: »

I was wondering if I really need an architect? as I thought the structure is quite straight forward, well I must be wrong)

'The structure might be straight forward' but how you connect the particulars of your 40m2 space to the existing dwelling without negatively effecting the existing spaces or ending up with a poorly designed extension with excess circulation space for example. ( note I say 40m2 as above this size new regs insist on full arch/eng service).
I think you will struggle to get a kit/liv/dinning space working in a <40m2 extension without an arch/ designers help.. I'm biased here but I believe an arch adds value at design stage that is benifical to the life of the occupants and worth their fee. A 40m2 extension will come in at ~60k. I believe a 5/10% (depending in regs & service) arch fee on top of The above approx building cost is worth it.

Builders will quote a cheaper price, if no drawings/spec is available. the question is will it comply with codes/regs and will it make for a comfortable,usable,fully functioning well lit home. Will you regret scrimping on the design when the works are complete?

barbie_j

kceire wrote: »

Is planning required?
A good technician could draw up a plan for you to agree with the builder.

But bear in mind that you may need an engineer for any structural elements and depending on the level of service you engage, you may not get anybody to control materials or costs.

I was at one job this week, no architect, no engineer, very good builder but he just underestimated the weight of the roof = total collapse. Blessed nobody was killed, never mind hurt.

OMG! total Collapse!! think I will need some professional help! thanks a mill Kceire!

barbie_j

BryanF wrote: »

'The structure might be straight forward' but how you connect the particulars of your 40m2 space to the existing dwelling without negatively effecting the existing spaces or ending up with a poorly designed extension with excess circulation space for example. ( note I say 40m2 as above this size new regs insist on full arch/eng service).
I think you will struggle to get a kit/liv/dinning space working in a <40m2 extension without an arch/ designers help.. I'm biased here but I believe an arch adds value at design stage that is benifical to the life of the occupants and worth their fee. A 40m2 extension will come in at ~60k. I believe a 5/10% (depending in regs & service) arch fee on top of The above approx building cost is worth it.

Builders will quote a cheaper price, if no drawings/spec is available. the question is will it comply with codes/regs and will it make for a comfortable,usable,fully functioning well lit home. Will you regret scrimping on the design when the works are complete?

thanks for that Bryan! lots help!
Think I will get an architect to help me plan the 'new kitchen', just wondering will the arch be responsible for regularly checking the builder's work and budget control? will I get a vert from the arch? and will my home insurance go up as well? any help is appreciated!

BryanF

barbie_j wrote: »

thanks for that Bryan! lots help!
Think I will get an architect to help me plan the 'new kitchen', just wondering will the arch be responsible for regularly checking the builder's work and budget control? will I get a vert from the arch? and will my home insurance go up as well? any help is appreciated!

Great questions ask at least 3 potiential archs

barbie_j

I contacted a local arch mins ago, the visit and inspection would be E75 + VAT, is it normal? your man there sounds grand anyway..

BryanF

barbie_j wrote: »

I contacted a local arch mins ago, the visit and inspection would be E75 + VAT, is it normal? your man there sounds grand anyway..

I suppose that depends on s number of factors including location and how busy the arch is. It's not an unreasonable call out fee. You could expect a decent conversation about your build, the overview options, & discussion on general budget. Plus clear understanding of what will be forwarded in subsequent quote.

barbie_j

Quick question in here, the architect suggests me to pay the PSDP Fee ( planning supervisor design process) for all construction works to them. the total would be around 1000 euro ex VAT.

I have received the proposal from the architect, they charge 10% of the total cost, and also I need to pay 200 euro for a surveyor to prepare a cost plan before tendering.

anyone think this is very expensive? and should I ask another architect to quote as well?

The budget I gave them is 30k, but in the proposal letter, they increased it to 35-40k, and specially said: the stove ( going to be in the new kitchen) and solid walnut kitchen and island are Not included in the budget. the extension itself is exempt from building permission.

I feel like I'm being ripped off.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

sullydublin

barbie_j wrote: »

Quick question in here, the architect suggests me to pay the PSDP Fee ( planning supervisor design process) for all construction works to them. the total would be around 1000 euro ex VAT.

I have received the proposal from the architect, they charge 10% of the total cost, and also I need to pay 200 euro for a surveyor to prepare a cost plan before tendering.

anyone think this is very expensive? and should I ask another architect to quote as well?

The budget I gave them is 30k, but in the proposal letter, they increased it to 35-40k, and specially said: the stove ( going to be in the new kitchen) and solid walnut kitchen and island are Not included in the budget. the extension itself is exempt from building permission.

I feel like I'm being ripped off.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

A good builder will be able to do all above and give certs for all the works carried out. I'm starting an extension myself and feel a architect
Bring your budget way up and also loom for mad money depending who you go with.

Pinch Flat

Received a quote from a local builder (Dublin 15). Looking gut €38k (incl vat) for a 10m2 extension (builders finish) filling in an L shape kitchen to make it rectangular. Only structural work was a beam to open out the rest wall. He didn't get a call back.

barbie_j

sullydublin wrote: »

A good builder will be able to do all above and give certs for all the works carried out. I'm starting an extension myself and feel a architect
Bring your budget way up and also loom for mad money depending who you go with.

thanks Sullydublin for the reply, my plan is so straightforward, simply to extend the kitchen to the rear garden. I can't see any complexity with this work, if the cost is around 2k-3k, I probably will go with it, but it seems he is looking for 6k ex VAT, which is way above my budget! and I just can't afford it!


I have heard of different stories about Not having a architect, very confused now.

barbie_j

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Received a quote from a local builder (Dublin 15). Looking gut €38k (incl vat) for a 10m2 extension (builders finish) filling in an L shape kitchen to make it rectangular. Only structural work was a beam to open out the rest wall. He didn't get a call back.

some ppl are mad! :eek:

DOCARCH

sullydublin wrote: »

A good builder will be able to do all above and give certs for all the works carried out.

A builder is not qualified (or insured) to give you any certs.

DOCARCH

barbie_j wrote: »

Quick question in here, the architect suggests me to pay the PSDP Fee ( planning supervisor design process) for all construction works to them. the total would be around 1000 euro ex VAT.

You need to appoint somebody competent to undertake the role. See: http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/Construction/homeowners_guidance.pdf

sullydublin

DOCARCH wrote: »

A builder is not qualified (or insured) to give you any certs.

But I would imagine that an engineer would be ? Most good builders have there work signed off on correct?

DOCARCH

sullydublin wrote: »

But I would imagine that an engineer would be ? Most good builders have there work signed off on correct?

It would not be standard practice for the builder to engage an engineer to sign off...and if he does, you will end up paying for it one way or the other.

sullydublin

DOCARCH wrote: »

It would not be standard practice for the builder to engage an engineer to sign off...and if he does, you will end up paying for it one way or the other.

I know unfortunately nothing is free in this world. A few builders I've been in contact with can supply a engineering cert. Only new to all this so learning all the time.

DOCARCH

You will also need (or should get) an opinion on compliance with building regulations and an opinion on compliance with planning permission (or exemption from planning permission). You will also need to appoint a PSDP. See: http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/Construction/homeowners_guidance.pdf

barbie_j

hallo lads, instead of hiring an expensive architect, I decided to talk to the local builders instead
(they are qualified). the price is v. competitive, the only thing is that I changed my original plan, and this new extension couldn't be less straightforward, just to build a room ( 13*12 feet) outside the current kitchen and use it as a dinning room.

the builders quoted around 24k, and a local qualified architect could provide a cert for 200quid. like the arch will be using the photos taken by the builder and make the evaluation.

And if i want him to come along to certify the work within the process, that will cost me another 900 quid on top of the 200 quid.

Since this is very straightforward, the builders didn't even need a drawing, what you good people think of it?

ops, since my original architect said that the work should wait till March or so to start, the builders said they can start the work now and get it done within 4 weeks, and this is a Guarantee.

barbie_j

DOCARCH wrote: »

You will also need (or should get) an opinion on compliance with building regulations and an opinion on compliance with planning permission (or exemption from planning permission). You will also need to appoint a PSDP. See: http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/Construction/homeowners_guidance.pdf

the architect seems can do it for mine without any inspection along the building process.... is it normal??

Gumbo

barbie_j wrote: »

hallo lads, instead of hiring an expensive architect, I decided to talk to the local builders instead
(they are qualified). the price is v. competitive, the only thing is that I changed my original plan, and this new extension couldn't be less straightforward, just to build a room ( 13*12 feet) outside the current kitchen and use it as a dinning room.

the builders quoted around 24k, and a local qualified architect could provide a cert for 200quid. like the arch will be using the photos taken by the builder and make the evaluation.

And if i want him to come along to certify the work within the process, that will cost me another 900 quid on top of the 200 quid.

Since this is very straightforward, the builders didn't even need a drawing, what you good people think of it?

ops, since my original architect said that the work should wait till March or so to start, the builders said they can start the work now and get it done within 4 weeks, and this is a Guarantee.

barbie_j wrote: »

the architect seems can do it for mine without any inspection along the building process.... is it normal??

What if the architect doesn't like what he sees in the pictures after the work is complete. Who will you chase to fix it as you have no contract as you have no supervision or drawing.

sullydublin

If you don't mind me asking does that 24k include your kitchen etc ?

Handsandtools

barbie_j wrote: »

thanks for that Bryan! lots help!
Think I will get an architect to help me plan the 'new kitchen', just wondering will the arch be responsible for regularly checking the builder's work and budget control? will I get a vert from the arch? and will my home insurance go up as well? any help is appreciated!

You have to agree with arch or engineer total amount of visits, we build extension now and engineer was here 3 times and that's it, because costumer agree just 3 visits and no more.
From builders point of view better is to work from plans, because to often costumers change their mind and didn't understand the whole picture together.
Good builder can figure out and calculate structures, but engineer is often needed to confirm.

barbie_j

sullydublin wrote: »

If you don't mind me asking does that 24k include your kitchen etc ?

unfortunately not.

bmm

barbie_j wrote: »

hallo lads, instead of hiring an expensive architect, I decided to talk to the local builders instead
(they are qualified). the price is v. competitive, the only thing is that I changed my original plan, and this new extension couldn't be less straightforward, just to build a room ( 13*12 feet) outside the current kitchen and use it as a dinning room.

the builders quoted around 24k, and a local qualified architect could provide a cert for 200quid. like the arch will be using the photos taken by the builder and make the evaluation.

And if i want him to come along to certify the work within the process, that will cost me another 900 quid on top of the 200 quid.

Since this is very straightforward, the builders didn't even need a drawing, what you good people think of it?

ops, since my original architect said that the work should wait till March or so to start, the builders said they can start the work now and get it done within 4 weeks, and this is a Guarantee.

Oh God, be careful!:eek: Have you seen lots of recent work this builder has successfully completed ?

How will you know if your house will stay standing after they leave ?

How do you determine whether you are getting value for your 24k ?

Handsandtools

That's just another proof that new regulations and quality control system is rubbish, because of the cowboy architects who can't even get to site and control quality. How in hell the architect can evaluate foundation, trenches, structures from photos taken by builder? If there will be any mistakes builder won't photo them.
I know a lot of accidents because of the short cuts like that, what if Your extension collapses because of the mistake or wrong calculations by some builder, what if someone gets killed, can You live with that???
I, as a builder can build any extension without plans and papers, but, as I know how much more work and responsibility it involves I better give it to the architects, because as a builder I will end up being architect and builder for same price and whole responsibility. So if the builder say he can do it without papers, it means his despaired or stupid.

barbie_j

thanks lads!! the builder needs a drawing from the architect, like the height of the new A Roof etc.
I will give the architect a quick call to see what is the story and how much it cost.

thanks again for all the help.

smelly sock

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Received a quote from a local builder (Dublin 15). Looking gut €38k (incl vat) for a 10m2 extension (builders finish) filling in an L shape kitchen to make it rectangular. Only structural work was a beam to open out the rest wall. He didn't get a call back.

I'd say he was busy during the recession!!

Keepan Eye

Its all very confusing - Some trades people will quote a price that seems reasonable. As a lay person most of us don't have a clue until its too late. Its not that they would do anything wrong but just that they will give you a Spec that cuts their costs.....and you won't know any different until they are long gone. Eg I asked Electricians doing a total house rewire to put in a cable to a room where in the future I was going to install a Shower. They were miserable enough to install a 6sq cable when to put in a good quality shower needed 10Sq.
They chased the Walls and 4 years on I'm still eating brick dust. They didn't use proper chasing equipment to collect the dust

Saved them a few miserable quid but cost me a headache. I wonder about the Apprenticeship System. Just as a young person learns the Trade they seem to learn the 'Short cuts' to put it politely.

Gumbo

Keepan Eye wrote: »

Its all very confusing - Some trades people will quote a price that seems reasonable. As a lay person most of us don't have a clue until its too late. Its not that they would do anything wrong but just that they will give you a Spec that cuts their costs.....and you won't know any different until they are long gone. Eg I asked Electricians doing a total house rewire to put in a cable to a room where in the future I was going to install a Shower. They were miserable enough to install a 6sq cable when to put in a good quality shower needed 10Sq.
They chased the Walls and 4 years on I'm still eating brick dust. They didn't use proper chasing equipment to collect the dust

Saved them a few miserable quid but cost me a headache. I wonder about the Apprenticeship System. Just as a young person learns the Trade they seem to learn the 'Short cuts' to put it politely.

Which is why you need a detailed spec for what you want done before work commences, and then agreed in writing by both parties.

Keepan Eye

Too right you need a Spec--- by a very independent person who will deal with so called Trades persons who bring the profession into dis-repute. They need to have their Papers revoked and put out of business to protect the real Trades Persons who take pride in their work. Good for you kceire-- well said.

Keepan Eye

Got a quote for a 4sqmetre porch and 18sq metre kitchen. €90,000 including supervision by the architect and new central heating.
Terrace house. Any body think thats a little high???

Gumbo

Keepan Eye wrote: »

Got a quote for a 4sqmetre porch and 18sq metre kitchen. €90,000 including supervision by the architect and new central heating.
Terrace house. Any body think thats a little high???

Depends on the works breakdown.is it just for an 18Sq. M extension and porch? Or are there other works?

sullydublin

Keepan Eye wrote: »

Got a quote for a 4sqmetre porch and 18sq metre kitchen. €90,000 including supervision by the architect and new central heating.
Terrace house. Any body think thats a little high???

Depends on spec of works and breakdown. I recently got our house renovated with a new extension for a lot less than that and works were carried out by a registered builder and signed off by an engineer.

Keepan Eye

sullydublin wrote: »

Depends on spec of works and breakdown. I recently got our house renovated with a new extension for a lot less than that and works were carried out by a registered builder and signed off by an engineer.

Thanks Sullydublin. Sounds like I need a second and third opinion. I figured €40K max, for 18 Sq metre extension and 4sq metre porch. It was an Architect specified build costed by a pro. The €90k included supervision by the architect of the build. I wasn't talking high spec kitchen or fittings - just pretty routine. Velux roof lights were dear but necessary. Anyhow anyone reading, be warned,,,,,,,almost cheaper to buy /invest in a country cottage or spanish appartment. Also keep in mind you WILL NOT see your money back on your extension if you decide to sell up.

sullydublin

Keepan Eye wrote: »

Thanks Sullydublin. Sounds like I need a second and third opinion. I figured €40K max, for 18 Sq metre extension and 4sq metre porch. It was an Architect specified build costed by a pro. The €90k included supervision by the architect of the build. I wasn't talking high spec kitchen or fittings - just pretty routine. Velux roof lights were dear but necessary. Anyhow anyone reading, be warned,,,,,,,almost cheaper to buy /invest in a country cottage or spanish appartment. Also keep in mind you WILL NOT see your money back on your extension if you decide to sell up.

If you're based in Dublin I could pass on the number of our builder be no harm to get a few quotes.

BryanF

sullydublin wrote: »

If you're based in Dublin I could pass on the number of our builder be no harm to get a few quotes.

Was this the builder who offered to get his own engineer to certofer the works!

Not the way to conduct a construction contract IMO

sullydublin

BryanF wrote: »

Was this the builder who offered to get his own engineer to certofer the works!

Not the way to conduct a construction contract IMO

Good thing it's your own opinion as I ended up with an architect on the job and my own engineer. Sure we will encourage builders to rip people off and with some of them who quoted me didn't want the "The Hassle of an engineer or architect " not to mention there is a lot of builders out there without the right insurance & liability.

Gumbo

sullydublin wrote: »

Good thing it's your own opinion as I ended up with an architect on the job and my own engineer. Sure we will encourage builders to rip people off and with some of them who quoted me didn't want the "The Hassle of an engineer or architect " not to mention there is a lot of builders out there without the right insurance & liability.

It would be my opinion also. Never and i mean never allow the builder of your project to appoint his own engineer to certify works that he is carrying out.

When you involved in the business you see way too many conflicts of interest and where it goes wrong. Unfortunely you would not be involved in the business so when it comes to your own project you get stary eyes and are taking in by the builders sweet talk.

Always appoint an independent engineer to design, supervise and certify the works.

Keepan Eye

sullydublin wrote: »

If you're based in Dublin I could pass on the number of our builder be no harm to get a few quotes.

Thanks sullydublin. I may come back to you on your offer. Mind you at the moment I think I'LL just stay as I am and make better use of the space. I can do that bit myself.....just not good with Block work. Some of Those Brickies and plasterers are beyond me ....dunno how they do it. CLass work. Plumbing, wood and Electrics I can do [ modest amounts mind you]. All the very best.